Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston

Subject: 'Long Time Ago'
From:
Date: 01 May 99 - 02:11 AM

Gretings from Port Townsend Washington.

Aaron Copeland took a traditional American folk song, telling a typical sad story, and arranged it for choruses.

The title is "Long Time Ago," and the tune is very beautiful - has sort of a Stephen Foster sound to it. Not in Mud Data Base.

I'm trying to track down the genesis of the tune and/or the story - did it come out of the Appalacian tradition; does it tell the specific story of one identifiable person? Or anything else we can find out... Thanks, Nik Lauer

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 May 99 - 03:34 AM

You have me stumped, Nik. The one folk song I know of that Copland used was the Shaker hymn Simple Gifts. I heard recently that Copland used the fiddle tune Bonaparte's Retreat in a symphonic piece, and I'm frustrated because I don't know which Copland piece has that song. Can anybody enlighten us on these two pieces?

Another folk song used in a symphonic piece was the spiritual Goin' Home used by Dvorak in the "New World" Symphony. Ralph Vaughan Williams used folk songs in many of his compositions, most notably his "Greensleeves" suite. I think he also did a "Folk Song Suite," but I can't think of any of the songs in that piece.
-Joe Offer-

P.S. Note the spelling of Copland's name. I didn't know the spelling until I looked it up just now.

Subject: Lyr Add: LONG TIME AGO
From:
Date: 01 May 99 - 09:28 PM

On the lake where drooped the willow, Long time ago,
Where the rock threw back the billow, Brighter than snow.
Dwelt a maid beloved and cherished, By high and low,
But with autumn leaf she perished, Long time ago.

Rock and tree and flowing water Long time ago,
Bird and bee and blossom taught her Love's spell to know.
While to my fond words she listened Murmuring low,
Tenderly her blue eyes glistened, Long time ago.

From a sheet music published by Boosey and Hawkes (1950)
It says "arranged by Aaron Copland".

Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: A LONG TIME AGO (chantey)
From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 21 Feb 00 - 06:22 PM

vissjoy's is probably the one you want, but this seems to be a good place to put this sea chantey (which doesn't seem to be in the DT.)

A Long Time Ago
(Long drag shanty)
From:Stanton H. King, King's Book of Chanties, Oliver Ditson, Boston, 1918, p. 1.

A dollar a day is a stevedore's pay
To me way ha ha yah!
a dollar a day, I heard them say,
And a long time ago.

I bought in Hong Kong a pretty silk dress,
To me way ha ha yah!
I'm taking it home to my sweetheard Bess,
And a long time ago.

My Bess is fair and sweet to view,
To me way ha ha yah!
her hair is brown and her eyes are blue,
And a long time ago.

I thought I heard our second mate say,
To me way ha ha yah!
one more pull, and then belay,
And a long time ago.

X:1
T:A Long Time Ago
C:Long drag shanty--from:Stanton H. King, King's Book of Chanties, Oliver Ditson, Boston, 1918, p. 1.
M:6/8
K:G
L:1/8
"Solo"D | G3 A G F | G> A G F "Chorus" E D | G3 A3 | B3 D3 |
"Solo"B | c3 d B G | A G A B "Chorus" c c | B3 A2 A | G6 ||

T.

Subject: Lyr Add: A LONG TIME AGO (chantey)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 00 - 08:03 PM

Here's anothwer set of verses that Stan Hugill used to sing, (as I remember them anyway):

Three ships lay in Frisco Bay
To me way hay, oh hi o,
a waiting a fair wind for to get under way,

Oh a long time ago.

And one of those ships was Noah's Ark,
To me way hay, oh hi o,
all covered all over in hickory bark
Oh a long time ago.

Her sails were of silver, and her masts were of gold,
To me way hay, oh hi o,
with nine hundred yalla girls down in the hold
Oh a long time ago.

And all of it's sailors so sick and so sore
To me way hay, oh hi o,
they've scoffed all their lime juice, and they're waiting for more
Oh a long time ago.

And if ever I get my feet on the shore
To me way hay, oh hi o,
I'll ship as the skipper of a little rum store
Oh a long time ago.

And if ever I get my feet on the land
To me way hay, oh hi o,
I'll ship as some rich woman's smart fancy man
Oh a long time ago.

It's a long time and a hell of a time
To me way hay, oh hi o,
it's a hell of a time since I made this rhyme
Oh a long time ago.

Subject: Lyr Add: LONG TIME AGO (chantey)
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Feb 00 - 10:47 PM

& another from the Wes Indies

Once I had a lover but now I have none
Long time ago
Jeannie my darling I love you so well
Long time ago
Soon as I go out you love someone else

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 21 Feb 00 - 11:18 PM

If you see a white-haired man with a fiddle wandering around Port Townsend (Scottish Festival time) that's Mudcat's expert on Scots songs, Murray on Saltspring, and tell him we need him here more often. [I came from Bremerton]

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 01:40 AM

I don't think the shanty has anything to do with the song that was originally requested, but it's a good opportunity to explore both of 'em.. Click here for an alternate "Noah's Ark" version of the shanty in the database. I think the version I've heard is different from what's been posted, but I can't find the recording right now to check it. Any other lyrics available for the shanty, and is there another version in the database?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Lyr Add: A LONG TIME AGO (chantey)
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 01:45 AM

A traditional New Zealand variant of the famous halyard shanty from "Songs of Old New Zealand" by Phil Garland

A LONG TIME AGO
(pump/windlass chantey)

Well I wish I was in Auckland town
Way ho hi o
Where the pretty girls walk up and down
A long time ago.

Chorus:
Well it is a long time
And a very long time
Way ho hi oh
A long time and a very long time
A long time ago

Well I wish to the lord I'd never been born
Way ho hi oh
To go a hunting round Cape Horn
A long time ago
Chorus:

Around Cape Horn with frozen sails
Way ho hi oh
Around Cape Horn to hunt the whales
A long time ago
Chorus:

Repeat 1st verse and chorus

As recorded by Lime Bay Mutiny, Live at the Blue Peter 1990

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 01:48 AM

It could be related Joe, Port Townsend used to have a really good Wooden Boat Festival, so I've been told.

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: NSC
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 06:48 AM

Noah's Ark Shanty in DB

The bull stuck his arm throught the side of the ark should read HORN.

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 06:35 PM

Copland also used Dan Emmett's tune, THE BOATMAN'S SONG in a composition.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: Lyr Add: LITTLE BLACK BULL / HOOSEN JOHNNY
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 11:50 PM

This is the song that came to mind when I read the thread title. I was just listening to it on the way to work late last week.

Ruth Crawford Seeger also has a song in her Animal Folk Songs for Children book called The Little Black Bull that has "Long Time Ago" as the Chorus.

LITTLE BLACK BULL / HOOSEN JOHNNY

The little black bull came down the meadow,
Hoo-sen John-ny, Hoo-sen John-ny
The little black bull came down the meadow,
Long time ago.

Long time ago.
Long time ago.
The little black bull came down the meadow,
Long time ago.

First he paw and then he bellow,
Hoo-sen John-ny, Hoo-sen John-ny
First he paw and then he bellow,
Long time ago.

He whet his horn on a white-oak sapling,
Hoo-sen John-ny, Hoo-sen John-ny
He whet his horn on a white-oak sapling,
Long time ago.

Long time ago.
Long time ago.
He whet his horn on a white-oak sapling,
Long time ago.

He shake his tail, he jar the meadow, etc.

He paw the dirt in the heifers' faces, etc.

It's a great song, very pretty (despite the words). It's on an album that the Seeger kids did of their mom's songs of the same name (Animal Folk Songs For Children).

JAB

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 09:13 AM

Re "Little Black Bull." I note the comment "It's a great song, very pretty (despite the words)." Which is even more true in the much cruder version I got from Cyril Tawney. He said it was very common in the south of England. The refrain was the (also common in the US) one, "Houston, Sam Houston." The great surprise to me was hearing this iconish name pronounced in the British fashion - "hooston."

(The chantey version is in Abrahams.)

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:43 AM

Hoosen Johnny appears in Sandburg. It is putatively one of Lincoln's favorites.

Frank

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 09:40 PM

Looking at comments on Long Time Ago and the thread Going Home, these comments may help. The Shaker song "Simple Gifts" and George Pope Morris' "Long Time Ago" (thanks again to those on this thread) are two of ten arranged by Copland in his "Old American Songs." Others came from minstrel, sacred and other sources. The best renditions are on Thomas Hampson's cd. Not all the notes on "Going Home" are correct. Dvorak's symphony 9, "From the New World", includes this melody which is his alone. ALL the words were fitted later. He was at the Rochester School of Music at this time, hence "From the New World." (Humor here as well?, since the food, girls and booze area of Prague at that time was known as the "New World"). Vaughan-Williams used many folk tunes. See the classics-based "Penguin Guide to Compact Discs", pub. by Penguin Books, for titles of his folk song arrangements.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE LITTLE BROWN BULL
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 10:36 PM

In the Penguin Book of American Folksongs, Lomax gives "The Little Brown Bull" as a Great Lakes Shanty. The first verse is:

A little brown bull come down the mount'n
A-roarin', boys, a-roarin',
A little brown bull come down the mount'n
A long time ago

I can post the other 7 verse and the tune if anybody wants.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: NSC
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 04:46 AM

Joe,

I have never seen a bull with an arm. Swan Arcade sing HORN in a very Yrokshire dialect which must have misled the contributor of the song.

Dave Brady tries to make most of songs sound as though they came from Yorkshire. I have no problem with that. he is just proud of his origins.

Subject: Lyr Add: LONG TIME AGO (George Pope Morris)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 08:01 PM

Only part of "Long Time Ago" by George Pope Morris is given in the lyrics posted by Vissjoy, from Copland's arrangement. Here is the original from Morris's collected poems (this one pub. 1840).

LONG TIME AGO

Near the lake where drooped the willow
Long time ago!
Where the rock threw back the billow
brighter than snow.
Dwelt a maid, beloved and cherished
By high and low;
But with autumn leaf she perished
Long time ago!

Rock and tree and flowing water,
Long time ago!
Bee and bird and blossom taught her
Love's spell to know!
While to my fond words she listened
Murmuring low,
Tenderly her dove-eyes glistened
Long time ago!

Mingled were our hearts forever,
Long time ago!
Can I now forget her? - Never!
No - lost one - No!
To her grave these tears are given, given
Ever to flow:
She's the star I missed from Heaven
Long time ago!

From the small fragment of the music given at the American Memory site, to me it seems unlikely that the "Daddy" Rice minstrel tune for his "Long Time Ago" (Shinbone Alley) is the tune used for the Morris poem. Rice When you reach this site scroll down to the paragraph headed "Pursuing Artistic Freedom--Early Published Music...; then click on the portrait to the right and the page with a fragment of the music will come up. (The 2nd paragraph with remarks about "Near the Lake..." as a republication with new lyrics is incorrect)
For words similar to Rice's Long Time Ago (Shinbone Alley) see thread 43912: Here

Subject: Lyr Add: LONG TIME AGO (Dan Rice)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 03:13 PM

LONG TIME AGO (Minstrel)
Original Song by Dan Rice

In a little log cabin on old Virginna,
Cousin John, hussa;
There I lived ever since I come from Guinea,
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh;
Put me in corn field to hoe the potatoes,
Long time ago.

I staid with old massa, good many summers,
Cousin John, hussa;
All the time we have good dinners,
Long time ago,
Oh every morn if we desire,
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh;
We use to bake the hoe cake before the fire,
Long time ago.

Old Dina was cook and none of the worstest,
Cousin John, hussa;
She use to bake the dodge without any crustes,
Long time ago.
De way dey bake de hoe cake in Virginna neber tire.
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh;
Dey put it on de foot an hold it to de fire,
Long time ago.

Den I thought I have old Dina for a wife,
Cousin John, hussa;
So at old massa for to save de strifey,
Long time ago;
Old Dina consented to have old Caesar,
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh;
Soon popped the question and did no more tease'n,
Long time ago.

We always have to ax before we get married;
Cousin John, hussa;
So de ting was fixed I did not tarry.
Long time age.
Now I loves her to extraction;
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh;
And she loves me and hears de confexion,
Long time ago.

Massa soon found we was good property,
Cousin John, hussa;
He sold de little niggers and de money he did pocket,
Long time ago.
But when old Dina didn't have no more,
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh;
So he sell old Caesar and send him down de river,
Long time ago.

But I didn't stay long in de wild goose nation,
Cousin John, hussa:
There dey make de niggers work de plantation,
Long time ago.
Oh ebery morn massa look sower,
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh;
Give de niggers thirty-nine ebery half hour,
Long time ago.

@slavery @Negro
This song seems to have an anti-slavery intent; it isn't the usual minstrel song. Separation of family and the administration of lashes are not minstrel subjects. He "didn't stay long" suggests escape.
This song, credited in the Songster to Dan Rice, bears no relationship to the Shinbone Alley-Long Time Ago song also credited to Rice. See: Shinbone Alley
The words above from "Christy's Nigga Songster," as sung by Christy's, Pierce's, White's, and Dumbleton's Minstrels, song # 227, published by T. W. Strong, c 1850, New York. Masato Sakurai recently posted the following Univ. Virginia website in the thread, Blue tail Fly. The complete Songster is given on the site. Songster

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 03:28 PM

Strange! The url worked for masato... :http://www/iath.virginia.edu/utc/minstrel/misocat/html.
They are calling for a http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu:1852... site which has an ending I am afraid to attempt.

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 03:29 PM

www. doesn't work for me either

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 06:42 PM

THE WORKABLE LINK.

Subject: Lyr Add: LONG TIME AGO
From: GUEST,Dead Horse
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 09:06 PM

Further to the shanty question, this here is a more complete version.

There were three ships out there in the bay
To me way-ay oh, hi-o
Awaitin' a fair wind to get under way
Oh, a long time ago

One of these ships was the old Noahs Ark
All trim rigged and flashy and covered with bark

Old Noah himself commanded this Ark
His carga was animals out fer a lark

He boarded these animals two of each kind
Birds, snakes and jiggy-bugs, he didn't mind

These animals they came in two by two
The tortoise was chasin' the kangeroo

These animals came in three by three
The elephant rode on the back of a flea

These animals came in four by four
Mrs Noah she went mad, and run out the door

These animals came in five by five
Some were half dead, some half alive

These animals came in six by six
The hyena laughed at the monkeys tricks

These animals came in seven by seven
Says the ant to the elephant "Who are ye shovin'"

These animals came in eight by eight
A dirty old pig and an ugly black ape (point at some folks)

These animals came in nine by nine
The hedgehog was stuck on a porky-pine

These animals came in ten by ten
The old Ark with a groan weighed her anchor, then

They sailed away on a voyage from hell
Up from the hold come a terrible smell

They sailed away for a year and a day
All of the birdies just flew away

They hadn't the foggiest where they was at
Until they piled up on old Mount Ararat

The old Ark with a bump landed high and dry
The bear gave the turkey a sailors goodbye

A long, long time, and a very long time
To me way-ay oh, hi-o
A long, long time, and a hell of a time
Oh, a long time ago

and if you want it even longer !!! insert "bull & cow verses after *ten by ten*
The bull and the cow, they started a row
Old Noah come down and said "Weigh enough, now!"

Old Noah come down a-crackin' his whip
"If you don't stop this row, I'll scuttle the ship"

The bull stuck his horn thru the side of the Ark
A little brown dog began to bark

So Noah grabbed the dog, shoved his nose in the hole
Since then all dogs noses have been wet and cold

There is also another version of Long Time Ago, but aint gonna do it now, so there!
.....here endeth this mornings lesson..........

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 09:20 PM

Just realised the "other version" is actually "A Hundred Years Ago" but I sometimes do it as Long Time Ago instead, as I'm sure some genuine shantymen must have done, especially when running out of verses when pumping out a leaky old tub.

Subject: Lyr Add: A HUNDRED YEARS AGO (shanty)
From: Dead Horse
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 12:55 PM

It appears as though I have been declared illegitimate, but after resetting my cookie I have now regained my identity, so, without further ado, here is

A HUNDRED YEARS AGO

Oh, a hundred years on the eastern shore
Oh, hi-o,
A hundred years on the eastern shore
A hundred years ago

They used to think that pigs could fly
Can you believe this stupid lie?

They thought the stars were set alight
By some kind angels every night

They thought the world was flat and square
That old Columbus, he never got there

They thought the moon was made of cheese
You can believe it if you please

They hung a man for making steam
Throwed his body out into the stream

They thought that mermaids was no yarn
But we know better, 'cos we can larn (learn)

A long, long time, and a very long time
Oh, hi-o
'Tis a hell of time since I fust made this rhyme
Oh, a hundred years ago

Verses interchangeable with Long Time Ago. And Stormy. And any other damn thing you feel like! Loads of made up verses can be added to these and other shanties, and verses from other shanties added, as the shantyman wasn't a folk song purist, he just chanted away until the job was done. All of which makes endless fun for collectors of "sea songs" and a nightmare for aforementioned folk purists. Good, ain't it?

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 02:15 PM

Another Noah's Ark verse:

All the animals came in pairs...
'Cept for the worms, they came in apples...

Must be hard to heave that old capstan around when the shantyman lets one rip like that.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: Dead Horse
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 03:26 PM

Good'n Charley, must remember to sing that verse when audience has mouth full. Love to see ale or food propelled at great force when I sing. It seems I usually have this effect on listeners, but now it can be added to.

Subject: RE: 'Long Time Ago'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 08:41 AM

Dead Horse - Have your tried leading "Dramamine" for the dinner crusin' crowd? It's always a crowd pleaser, when tastefully presented.

Sorry about the thread drift.

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:12 AM

The Spinners also did a version, including 'the elephant, he got stuck in the door'

Anyone have the rest of this version?

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 06:05 AM

Noone?

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 11:05 PM

Copland used the fiddle tune 'Bonapart's retreat' in the 4th movement of his Rodeo suite. It's the one entitled 'Hoedown', which used to be on beef commercials.
There is a good background story of the emergence of the fiddle tune in Copland's work in the book, 'The Beautiful Music All Around Us' by Stephen Wade.

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 07:06 PM

"Long Time Ago," George Pope Morris. Looking for sheet music by Charles Edward Horn, c. 1837.

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Bert
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 07:26 PM

There is an article by Terry Golden in The December '61 issue of Sets in Order.

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 07:41 PM

Good find, Bert!

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 07:44 PM

Found the sheet music. "Long Time Ago," music by Charles E. Horn, at National Library of Australia.

(The melody arranged by Copeland.)

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 02:11 PM

Pray tell, which vessels did C E Horn & Copeland sail in?

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 02:22 PM

In the good ship Dicho, posted 08 Feb 02.

Or on the 'deck' of The Little Black Bull, GutBucketeer, 22 Feb 00.

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 04:32 PM

Sorry people, but for at least the third time in as many days I posted extensive information on a song, only for Mudcat to go down while it was in transit, making it all disappear. Of course I should have saved it to a clipboard, but it was late and I was tired.

Gist: Clean and dirty versions of "The Big Black Bull" are (or were) sung all over the English-speaking world.

One notable singer was Civil War General Ambrose Burnside, while he was a cadet at West Point in the 1840s.

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Bert
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 12:03 PM

Lighter,

I used to take Sets in Order back in those days. I don't know when they started the on-line archive, but it is a superb resource for anyone interested in the transition of square dancing from traditional to modern.

I should start another thread about it really, 'cos we have callers here on Mudcat who might be interested.

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 02:16 PM

Is there a recording of Joe Hickerson singing his "Sam Houston" rendition of this song? I heard him do it just once, and it sure was a lot more fun than "Hoosen Johnny."
Instead of "Hoosen Johnny," everyone jumps up and sings "Houston, Sam Houston" at the top of their lungs.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Gurney
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 05:17 PM

Cyril Tawney sang a version of Gutbucketeer's Little Black Bull, which he got from someone who got it in America, chorus 'Houston, Sam Houston!'
It had a big black bull who 'Jumped that fence and he hooshed them heifers.'

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 11:18 PM

Any idea where I'd find the Cyril Tawney recording, Gurney?

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 10:38 AM

Back to 'Long Time Ago'

Thanks to dear Que's info that the composer was Charles E. Horn, I found the original easily on the Lester Levy site. Basically it consists of 16 measures, and I so I decided to make a MIDI of it. The note lengths are complex.

The real name of it is 'Near the Lake where Droops the Willow'.

It was registered in New York in 1839, so it is safely in the public domain, Aaron Copeland or no. It was in Bb, so I moved it to C. It's pretty high, but it would make a great flute tune. Probably would be nice on a concertina, too.

I'll send it to Joe for posting.
=============
I have found that when Joe posts my MIDI's, my computer won't play them using Google Chrome. But when I brush the cobwebs off Internet Explorer and use it as my browser, they do play. You may have to do the same.

---

Click to play (joeweb)

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 02:08 PM

Joe, I don't know if he ever recorded it, and it's certainly not on his recordings that I have. I was a member of his club for a couple of years, and I remember his singing it and his introduction that a friend of his brought it back to England. And that the friend mispronounced the name as 'Hewston,' so the friend possibly had it from a written source. It had the 'Long Time Ago-O-O' chorus and the 'Houston, Sam Houston' interjection
Most earlier Tawney recordings mostly comprised traditional songs he had personally collected, and songs that he had written.

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 02:20 AM

I was in Houston in Texas a few weeks ago, and they pronounced it "Hewston" there. I wonder how Sam pronounced it.
And I wonder if Cyril Tawney may have gotten the song from Joe Hickerson, a formidable source of folk music information.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 01:29 AM

I posted leeneia's MIDI for "Long Time Ago," with a link in her post above. It's not like any "Long Time Ago" that I know. The Digital Tradition has the lyrics and melody for "Hoosen Johnny" that I know from Sandburg's American Songbag, except that Sandburg has the lyrics in fake-sounding "Negro dialect."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 01:09 PM

It's like a "Long, Long Ago" that I heard the Conservatory choir sing while I was in college (also long, long ago.)

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 02:06 PM

Wait, what? It was Sam Houston who shook his tail and jarred the meadow?

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: JenBurdoo
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 10:49 PM

I learned this from Ed McCurdy's LP of children's songs as The Little Black Bull. A lot of good memories of that record; I need to learn more of them.

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 11:32 PM

Oh, I see what happened. We're talking about two different "long time ago" songs. Leeneia's MIDI is for the first one, not the "Little Black Bull" one. I probably should split this thread to eliminate the confusion, but I don't have time now. Hope I remember to do it later.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 06:01 AM

Sam "Houston" was pronounced like the city he's named for: "Hewston."

But Houston Street in NYC is "House-ton."

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:35 AM

1924 R. W. Gordon in Adventure magazine (Jan. 30), pp. 191-92, from a notebook sent in by an "old sailor":

                                        A LONG TIME AGO

From Liverpool City to Frisco I went
    To my hay—ay—ay—yah!
From Liverpool City to Frisco I went
    A long time ago!

[Similarly:]

I shipped on a ship of the Black Ball Line….

Oh, I’ll never forget that night off Cape Horn….

We were going twelve knots with our main skys’l set….

When the man on the lookout reported the land….

It’s then you should hear our bold captain’s command….

“Every man to his station! We’ll put her about! ….

“And we’ll point her to Frisco this very night!”….

But when I arrived in Frisco town….

The runners came off from Shanghai Brown….

Oh, I picked up my bag and went on shore….

And like all other fools took in whisky galore….

And now I’m shanghaied back to Liverpool town….

Away down south where I was born….

Amongst the fields of yellow corn….

I courted a girl, her name it was Nell….

And when I return we’ll both get wed….


[It starts off under the influence of "The Liverpool Judies," then appears to get topical, throws in a reference to "Shanghai Brown," returns to "L J,"

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:44 AM

As I was saying,

next brings in a couple of cliche' lines, and ends with something unrelated to anything that's gone before.

It's partly free improvisation, partly a "re-telling" of another song, and partly the importation of familiar lines from elsewhere.

The repeated lines (unlike the couplets of chantey books) are typical of field-recorded chantey singing; Carpenter's chanteymen, for example, rarely use couplets.

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 26 - 11:05 AM

"Monmouth [Ill.] Review" (Jan. 7, 1875):

“The Monmouth Review kept open [its] office on Christmas day,…Jas. H. Stewart, Esq., assisted by Col. Davidson, sang ‘The old dun bull came down from the mountain. The lines ‘He pawed the dirt in the heifers’ faces’ and ‘Whets his horn on the white-oat sapling,’ were given with great emphasis."

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: GUEST,Gunnar
Date: 28 Apr 26 - 10:24 AM

Hello all, I am Gunnar Wiegand from Germany, folksinger and very interested in maritime folk. During research work I came to the shanty "It´s a long time ago" - which has some German versions (De Hoffnung / De Grönlandfohrer). And I wondered of what origin the song is.

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Jack Horntip
Date: 28 Apr 26 - 02:48 PM

The "Big Black Bull" is in the Ballad Index see here:

https://balladindex.org/Ballads/EM195.html

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Big Black Bull, The

DESCRIPTION: The big black bull comes down the mountain, spies a heifer, jumps the fence, jumps the heifer, then returns to the mountain.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1954 (recording, Pete Seeger)
KEYWORDS: animal bawdy humorous
FOUND IN: US(SW)
REFERENCES (1 citation):
Cray-EroticMuse, pp. 195-198, "The Big Black Bull" (2 texts, 1 tune)
Roud #7612
RECORDINGS:
Pete Seeger, "The Little Black Bull" (on PeteSeeger09, PeteSeegerCD02)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Old Gray Mare (I) (The Old Gray Horse; The Little Black Bull)"
cf. "The Old Black Bull" (lyrics, form, theme)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Houston
Sam Houston
The Old Black Bull
NOTES [93 words]: This is related to the sea chanty, "A Long Time Ago." - EC [Known in this index as "The Old Gray Mare (I) (The Old Gray Horse; The Little Black Bull)" etc. Paul Stamler considers "The Old Gray Mare" group to be the "cleaned up" version of the bawdy song, and also notes that in some of the bawdy versions the bull "missed his mark and (phhfft) in the meadow." - RBW]
I would be inclined to lump "The Big Black Bull" (explicitly bawdy) and "The Old Black Bull" (same plot and form, but not as dirty) as one song, but I've followed Roud in splitting them. - RBW
Last updated in version 6.3
File: EM195

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Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Jack Horntip
Date: 28 Apr 26 - 04:50 PM

Also see ballad index entry "Old Gray Mare (I), The (The Old Gray Horse; The Little Black Bull)"

See here: https://balladindex.org/Ballads/R271.html

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Old Gray Mare (I), The (The Old Gray Horse; The Little Black Bull)

DESCRIPTION: Concerning an old gray mare (old gray horse, little black bull) that came out of the wilderness (down the meadow, etc.) in Alabam/Arkansas/A long time ago/On to Galilee. Other animals may also be involved. May be used as a playparty
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1838 (William B. Smith; see Notes)
KEYWORDS: horse animal nonballad
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,SE,So)
REFERENCES (19 citations):
Wolford-ThePlayPartyInIndiana, pp. 92-93=Wolford/Richmond/Tillson-PlayPartyInIndiana, pp. 185-186, "There Goes Topsy Through the Window" (1 text, 1 tune)
Randolph 271, "The Old Gray Horse" (1 text plus 2 fragments, 1 tune); 559, "Out of the Wilderness" (1 short text, 1 tune); also possibly 429, "John the Boy, Hello!" (1 text, 1 tune, so short that one cannot tell whether it is the same piece or a different one)
Randolph/Cohen-OzarkFolksongs-Abridged, pp. 231-232, "The Old Gray Horse" (1 text, 1 tune -- Randolph's 271A)
Brown/Belden/Hudson-FrankCBrownCollectionNCFolklore3 174, "The Old Grey Horse Came Tearing Through the Wilderness" (3 short texts; "A" adds an unusual chorus, "Roll, Riley, roll (x3), Oh, Lord, I'm bound to go")
Scarborough-OnTheTrailOfNegroFolkSongs, pp. 13-14, "Old Gray Horse Come Tearin' Out o' De Wilderness" (1 text plus bits of others, 1 tune); p. 183, (no title) (1 short text)
Sandburg-TheAmericanSongbag, pp. 102-103, "Old Gray Mare"; 164-165, "Hoosen Johnny" (2 texts, 2 tunes)
Roberts/Agey-InThePine #137, "The Little Black Bull" (1 text, 1 tune)
Spurgeon-WaltzTheHall-AmericanPlayParty, pp. 92-93, "Down in Alabama" (1 text, 1 tune)
Jackson-PopularSongsOfNineteenthCenturyAmerica, pp. 65-68, "Down in Alabam' or Ain't I Glad I Got Out de Wilderness"" (1 text, 1 tune)
Lomax-FolkSongsOfNorthAmerica 45, "In the Wilderness" (1 text, 1 tune)
Lomax/Lomax-AmericanBalladsAndFolkSongs, pp. 336-338, "Tearin' Out-a Wilderness" (2 texts plus a fragment, 2 tunes)
Greenway-FolkloreOfTheGreatWest, p. 66, "(The old gray hoss he died in the wilderness)" (1 fragment)
Shay-BarroomBallads/PiousFriendsDrunkenCompanions, p. 29, "The Old Grey Mare" (1 short text)
Silber/Silber-FolksingersWordbook, p. 397, "Hoosen Johnny"; p. 398, "The Old Gray Mare" (2 texts)
Pankake/Pankake-PrairieHomeCompanionFolkSongBook, p. 63, "The Old Grey Mare" (1 text, tune referenced)
CharleyFoxEthiopianSongster, pp. 51-52, "Down in Alabam" (1 text, which claims to be "As originally composed and sung by C. H. Fox," but it is clearly a member of this family although probably rewritten)
Fuld-BookOfWorldFamousMusic, pp. 408-409, "The Old Gray Mare -- (Get Out of the Wilderness)"
Dime-Song-Book #4/72, p. 22 and #4/64, p. 22, Ain't I Glad to Get Out of the Wilderness"" (1 text)
ADDITIONAL: William B. Smith, "The Persimmon Tree and the Beer Dance" in _The Farmers' Register_, Vol. 6, No.1 (1838 ("Digitized by Internet Archive")) (also available on Google Books), p. 59, "Who zen-John, Who-za" (1 fragment)
Roud #751 and 4252
RECORDINGS:
Gene Autry, "The Old Grey Mare" (Conqueror 8686, 1936)
Al Bernard, "The Old Grey Mare" (Vocalion 15643, 1927)
Milton Brown & his Brownies, "The Old Grey Mare" (Decca 5260, 1936)
Fiddlin' John Carson & Moonshine Kate, "The Old Grey Horse Ain't What He Used to Be" (OKeh 45471, 1930)
Lew Childre, "The Old Grey Mare" (Gennett 7312/Champion 16093/Supertone 9773, 1930)
[Arthur] Collins & [Byron] Harlan "Old Grey Mare" (Victor 18387, 1917) (Emerson 7298, c. 1917) (Columbia A2382, 1917) (Little Wonder 780, 1918)
Vernon Dalhart, "The Old Grey Mare" (Perfect 12421/Conqueror 7071, 1928) (Banner 2180/Jewel 5187/Perfect 12421/Regal 8469/Conqueror 7071/Conqueror 7169, 1928; rec. 1927)
Earl Fuller's Famous Jazz Band, "The Old Grey Mare" (Victor 18369, 1917)
Earl Johnson & his Dixie Entertainers[/Clodhoppers], "Old Gray Mare Kicking Out of the Wilderness" (OKeh 45183, 1928; rec. 1927)
Jimmy Johnson's String Band, "Old Blind Dog" (Champion 16541 [possibly issued as by Andy Palmer], 1932; on KMM)
[Billy] Jones & [Ernest] Hare, "The Old Grey Mare" (Edison 51618, 1925)
Elmo Newcomer, "Old Grey Mare" CroMart 101, n.d. but prob. late 1940s - early 1950s)
Land Norris, "Old Grey Mare" (OKeh 45047, 1926)
Obed Pickard, "The Old Gray Horse" (Columbia 15246-D, 1928; rec. 1927)
Gid Tanner & his Skillet Lickers, "The Old Gray Mare" (Columbia 15170-D, 1927)
University Quartet, "The Old Gray Mare" (Pathe 20267, 1917)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Old Abe Lincoln Came Out of the Wilderness" (tune)
cf. "Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts" (tune)
cf. "The Big Black Bull"
cf. I Ain't a-Scared of Your Jail (tune, structure)
cf. "Horsie, Keep Your Tail Up" (lyrics)
cf. "Go in the Wilderness" (tune, structure)
cf. "Old Virginny Never Tire"
cf. "The Old Black Bull" (form; probably also tune)
SAME TUNE:
Old Abe Lincoln Came Out of the Wilderness (File: San168)
Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts (File: PHCFS133)
The King's Navy (File: Hopk063)
Here We Sit Like Birds in the Wilderness (File: ACSF164H)
Swimming in the Delaware (Cohen-AmericanFolkSongsARegionalEncyclopedia1, p. 163)
Floatin' Down the Delaware (Pankake/Pankake-PrairieHomeCompanionFolkSongBook, p. 157; Cohen-AmericanFolkSongsARegionalEncyclopedia1, pp. 163)
I Don't Give a Darn for the Whole State of Iowa (Pankake/Pankake-PrairieHomeCompanionFolkSongBook, p. 251)
I Ain't A-Scared of Your Jail (on PeteSeeger35)
Aren't You Glad You Joined the Republicans? (Republican campaign song, c. 1860; cf. e.g. Allan Nevins, _The Emergence of Lincoln: Prologue to Civil War 1859-1861_ [volume IV of _The Ordeal of the Union_] (Scribners, 1950, p. 315))
Old Joe Hooker, won't you get out of the Wilderness (Song supposedly sung by J. E. B. Stuart during the Battle of Chalcellorsville; see Stephen W. Sears, _Chancellorsville_, Houghton Mifflin, 1996, p. 335)
NOTES [321 words]: Roud seems to make this into two numbers, 751 and 4252, but I can't tell what the distinction is. But see Paul Stamler's note below....
The 1858 sheet music credits this to "J. Warner," but no information about Warner has been recovered, and there are indications that the song was in the Black traditional repertoire before the 1850s.
A common bit of folklore claims that this is based on the exploits (?) of an animal that took fright during the Second Battle of Bull Run in 1862. The date of the sheet music, of course, proves this false. - RBW
Sam Hinton traces this to an African-American spiritual, "I Wait Upon the Lord" ("If you want to get to heaven go in the wilderness... and wait upon the Lord"). - PJS [See now the Index entry for "Go in the Wilderness." - RBW]
Are you sure this is the same ballad as "Little black bull come down the meadow/Hoosen Johnny, Hoosen Johnny"? I think they're part of the same family, but maybe we should split them. By the way, there's a great bawdy version of "Hoosen Johnny" called "Houston, Sam Houston", with sound effects. - PJS
It's another case of the extremes being different but the intermediate versions being too mixed to clearly distinguish. Easier to lump the whole family here. If we don't, we *will* mess up. Or, at least, I will. The versions of this song are so diverse that it gets to the point of parodying itself....
It would be an interesting project, for someone, to determine whether these are two songs that mixed or one song that diverged to an extreme degree. - RBW
The William B. Smith text, published in 1838, refers to a plantation dance "some years" before."The ball was opened with great ceremony by singing a song known to our Virgina slaves by the name of 'who zen-John, who-za.'
'Old black bull come down de hollow,
He shake hi' tail, you hear him bellow;
When he bellow he jar de river,
He paw de yearth, he make it quiver.
Who-zen John, who-za'" - BS
Last updated in version 7.0
File: R271

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Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Jack Horntip
Date: 28 Apr 26 - 05:17 PM

"Oh, the little black bull came down from the mountain!"

sang the well known voice of Rakeman, as Wentworth entered.

1869. Fair Harvard: A Story of American College Life. p.80

See online here: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Fair_Harvard/Fdue3zREGo8C

Subject: RE: Origin: Long Time Ago/Hoosen Johnny/Sam Houston
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 26 - 05:20 PM

This brings back good memories of Joe Hickerson singing this song. I think he sang it as "Little Black Bull." At the right point, everyone would jump up, salute, and wildly call out "Houston, Sam Houston." The other versions I've heard were always "Hoosen Johnny," which wasn't as much fun.
I love this song. It's right up my alley. I hope Joe is still singing it up in the Great Beyond.