Help: What Key Do You Like?

Subject: What Key Do You Like?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 05:19 PM

Hi Gang!! I am in the process of getting some tunes into ABC format for the database. Lots of the tunes (with lyrics) that I have are in keys like E or Db, which this fiddler considers impossible. Does it matter to anybody what key a song is posted in? Does not matter to me what I post them in because I can easily transpose. Shall I leave them in the "Champagne" keys, or transpose to "Beer" keys? Let me know in the next few days because I do only want to do each one once.

Thanks!! Sorcha

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 05:22 PM

Beer Please !!!!

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 05:26 PM

Doesn't really matter to me. ABCMidi has a prog called ABC2ABC which will transpose, and also double or halve note-lengths, so I can put it into any key I want to play it in (i.e D or G). or sing it in (F or Bb usually)

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: SDShad
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 05:28 PM

And me, hell, I take ABC files and ABC2MIDI 'em, and the pull the MIDIs into Noteworthy Composer, where I can transpose to my heart's content.

Chris

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 05:29 PM

Singing, I like D. G sometimes is good, but it's usually too low & too high for my voice. A is too high or too low except in a few cases, C is almost usually impossible, except for rare instances. F is good, E is not my style, but I do like B minor for some reason.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 05:36 PM

Cool! Maybe Rick will check in before I start this project, but that is basically what I wanted to know. Mbo, I am not going to put Major tunes into minor, you should know that (but I have been known to move a minor to a Major once in a while) I like e minor, but then I like Swallowtail Jig, too!! LOL!

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 05:43 PM

I couldn't care less for songs as I set the key to suit my voice and transpose as neccessary. For Irish tunes, etc, it is much more convenient to have them in the standard key's such as G and D although some tunes were written in a specific key ,e,g, Caliope House was written in E and I would stick with the original key if known.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 05:44 PM

Depends if I have a sore throat - there have been times that I've sung bass! I can usually manage about 2 & 1/2 octaves on the G below middle C if that is any use?

Personally I prefer whiskey....

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 06:30 PM

LOL! LtS!! Yes, dears. That is basically my opinion, too. Just wanted to make sure............also, guitar/banjo people can use capos, fiddlers can't. Looks like I will post most of them where written, unless it it a real booger.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 06:39 PM

I never used a capo a day in my life! BTW singing in the morning is weird for me. My voice is much deeper for some reason, which throws my keys all off. That's when G sounds really good.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: RichM
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 06:41 PM

Sorcha, you are right: choose the keys suitable for fiddlers.
Us singers are flexible, thanks to the great god Klamp--who gave us the capo for just these occasions.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: sophocleese
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 06:43 PM

Mbo its normal for your voice to be deeper in the morning. All of your throat is nice and relaxed after sleeping. It takes a while for the vocal chords to warm up and want to tighten up enough to sing higher pitches. Sorcha, any key is fine for me as I transpose for voice or recorder wherever I want to.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 06:48 PM

Funny that, mine is tight first thing, if I try to do it straight off, I close up like a clam, and can only manage the odd croak.

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 06:54 PM

Thank the Heavens for people who actually know how to transpose!!! There are actually very few of us out there. Thanks, gang.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: sophocleese
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 06:54 PM

LTS that's why warming up the voice first so it doesn't overeact and get anxious is a good idea. Try singing your alto range in the morning and see how it feels.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 07:03 PM

Sophie, I find that really interesting. I never understood why my voice was so deep in the morning. I just thought it was because that is the time when I feel the sexiest or something.

As for the key I prefer, it is difficult to say because right now I am still trying to figure out what key is best for me to sing in and it keeps changing as I strengthen my vocal range.
I don't mind playing around with the key to figure out something that will suit my voice

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 07:14 PM

Bonnie, you're crackin' me up!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Hypatia
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 07:31 PM

Fiddlers and Mando players unite! Can we hear it for D! Willing to transpose though.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 07:36 PM

"I never used a capo a day in my life!" ... There's time yet...

You can use a capo for three reasons - one is because you need to play a tune in a key you can't cope with. And there are quite a few of those. G# for example, on a standard tuned guitar. (And I'm sure that you are a lot better at those kinds of keys than I ever will be.)

Another reason is that yiu have learned an accomoaniment in one key, but on the night your voice wants to sing in a different key, and if you have to coincentrate on playing a different accomopaniment it'll take attention away from the song, which is the thing that really matters more than any accompaniment.

And the third reason is that even when you are quite able to play in a key, and even if you're good enough to do iy at a moment's notice without being distracted from the song, the accompaniment you want will sound better with a capo and a different pattern of chords.

I'll often be singing a song in C, but with the capo up on the 5th fret, so I'm playing as if it was in G. That's not because I can't play in C!

But what is a mistake is when someone wants to play a particular accompaniment, but they won't use a capo, and they have to force their voice to sing in a strained and unnatural key. (And I'm thinking of people I've known in singarounds and such.) The song comes first.

Incidentally, Segovia was known to use a capo.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: dwditty
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 07:43 PM

McG of H,
I often use a capo to get a bell-like sound even if I have to transpose to sing in the same key as I would if I didn't use a capo. Particular at the 4th fret or higher.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 07:51 PM

Yeah, but a bell-like sound won't get ye nowhere on an Oasis song! Actually G# is lots of fun to play, especially in "Momma" by ELO, with that great country-style picking...

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 08:17 PM

Everything about a guitar can be fun (apart maybe from it going out of tune). The thing is, however good you are, there are sounds you can only get with a capo, and if they are the sounds you want, that's how you get them. And if you don't use a capo on priniple, you'll never have those sounds available.

When Buddy Holly had his drummer tap out the rhythm on a packing case on some songs, it wasn't because he didn't have a drum kit. That was the sound that was wanted.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: GUEST,Bernard
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 09:09 PM

Key doesn't matter to a capo guitarist or banjo player, mandolins and fiddles are usually no problem as they are melodic, and keyboard players have all the notes they need, plus a few extra! The people who will have problems are melodeon players, and Irish flute players - except they usually play diddly diddly tunes...

Whatever happened to the drunken classical guitarist, Segovia Carpet?

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 09:25 PM

The Great Capo Debate inevitably leads to the 'Funny Tunings' Debate...

If you get the sound you want, and the audience appreciate your efforts, snotty-nosed purists haven't a leg to stand on!!

Anyway, who has the right to say what is the 'correct' tuning for a guitar, banjo or whatever? There isn't even a standard for melodeons, which are much more difficult to tune!!

Subject: Key of R ^^^
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 11:38 PM

can't resist..(copied & pasted from another thread)

The Key of "R"

"I am a young folksinger, I've traveled far & near.
I sing about the pain of life and other things I hold dear.
And when I sing about all the agony I endure,
I always sing in my favorite key..I sing in the key of 'R'.

cho:
Oh, the Key of R is a wondrous key,
That nobody else sings in but me.
Some people think I'm sharp or flat,
But the Key of R....just sounds like that.

I sing about my Mother, and how her life was hard.
She raised 12 kids and worked in the mines, and rendered her own lard.
She sewed our clothes and slopped the hogs, and other things like that.
And when I sing about her, I sing in the key of R..flat.

cho:

I had a good 'ol hound-dog, his name, of course, was Blue,
And we growed up together, when the world was fresh and new.
But, ah, my friends, that old dog died...and no dog could be finer..
And when I sing about old Blue, I sing in the key of R..flat..minor..

cho:

I sing about America, the land where I was born.
It's purple mountains, azure waves of grain and fields of corn.
Her oceans and her deserts are a little bit of heaven,
And when I sing of this land I love, I sing in the key of R..flat..minor..seventh..

cho:

But mostly I sing of lost loves...and I seem to lose them all.
The lovers who have left me, would fill a union hall.
And the pain of unrequited love, it never seems to finish
And when I sing about it, I sing in the key of R..flat..minor..seventh..diminished.

cho:

And now my song is finished,and I hope you sang along,
Bearing in mind that the notes we sang were never...ever...wrong.
And though we ruined the meter, and we had to stretch for rhythme,
We sang in the very best key of all, we sang in the key of R..flat..minor..seventh..diminished...with a suspended ^9th."

cho:
^^

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: JamesJim
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 11:47 PM

I'm not sure, but I think I must sing mostly in the key of "L." The last time I sung, a good friend of mine said "it sounds like L." At least that's what I think he said. Jim

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Gary T
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 01:20 AM

Just to be picky and technical (actually to avoid givng wrong info to those still learning)--although the NOTE can be called G# or Ab (e.g. in the key of B it's G#, in the key of Eb it's Ab), the KEY is Ab. In other words, there is no key of G#.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 03:39 AM

Of course there's a key of G#. Start with G#, A#, B#, C#, D#, E#, F##, G#. (There is also a G# minor.) And yes, B# is a note, and so are E# and F## (double-sharp). In print, a double-sharp looks like an "x". If you capo a guitar on the first fret, it's easy to play in G#. The thing is, music written in G# looks scary on paper, so it's better to write it in Ab, only 4 flats.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 05:00 AM

Mbo,

Oasis use capos

Wonderwall (2nd fret) being the obvious example

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: moocow
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 07:28 AM

I like my door key cos thats how I get in. all my favorite tunes are Bm.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 08:27 AM

I know, guest, they also use one at the 2nd fret on "D'yer Know What I Mean". I can't really tell the difference. Now when Radiohead uses a capo on the 8th fret to get those beautiful bell tones on "No Surprises" I can hear that!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Homeless
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 08:44 AM

I was watching a fellow play guitar the other night, and he used 2 capos (set at different frets) on every song he played. It was kinda funny to watch - as he was introducing each song he would move each of the capos to a different place.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 09:20 AM

my best key is "off" - occasionally "off-flat"

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 09:48 AM

Banjo Jonnie. If you were writing in G and wanted an F natural rather that the F#, you put the natural sign by the note. What do yo do if you are writing in G# and want the F# as opposed to the F## - does the natural sign then mean F#? Also do people really put double sharp signs on key signatures?

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: jeffp
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 10:12 AM

My understanding is that to show an accidental F# in a key that uses the F##, you use one sharp sign followed by a natural to show that the second sharp is cancelled. The same notation is used for an F# following an accidental F## in the same measure.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 10:12 AM

Of course those Canadians will prefer everything in A. ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 10:25 AM

Well, I can understand a little of it. B#=C, but if you have a C#, it would look like the same note on the staff. E#=F, but there's an F##,because F##=G, but there's a G#. It all sound confusing, but in notation, the sharps are not placed by individual notes, so if a C instead of a B# PLUS a C#, a scale in G# not using the weird #'s would look like G, A, C, C, D, E, G, G. (Based on staff placement.)

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 11:03 AM

Anybody care to try the key of B#?

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 11:07 AM

Easy Jon,it's called C. And F## is actually G natural. I firmly garuntee that no tunes will be posted in G#, or Ab, or Gbminor!

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 11:08 AM

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C - or
B#, C##, D##, E#, F##, G##, A#, B#
(We could also do Cb, but that's just going too far :-)

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:27 PM

Give me a key and I'll play in any flat.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 01:51 PM

Sorcha, Doesn't matter to me, 'cause I'll end up singin' 'em wherever it fits my voice, anyway. The keys of C and G are pretty easy to read. On second thought, it doesn't really matter. Soddy

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 06:04 PM

Ah sho am glad ah got the info ah needed befo this thang crept too fah. Got it goin now. Doin Corinna in D, and Unreconstructed Rebel in Dminor.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny
Date: 22 Jul 00 - 03:27 AM

These odd keys (such as G#) usually turn up in modulations. For example, a piece in C# might modulate to the V key, which would be G#. Using the G# signature maintains the true harmonic relationship with the home key -- A-flat would not. C# Major is a popular key for piano concertos (sounds great on the 88) and that type of modulation is common, even in folk music. I'm not saying I like G#, but it happens.

Because of the way the piano is tuned, each key/mode has a unique sonority, which composers are very well aware of. Have you noticed, as soon as you get beyond Lesson Three, there is not much piano music written in C major. That's because it sounds pretty crummy on the acoustic piano. G is much better.

Anyway, my favorite keys on the piano for general playing are D major and G minor, because of the sonorities and ease of fingering. I play a 5-string banjo (G tuning) and I actually like the sound better when capo'd on the first fret. Yikes, now we are back to G#, but let's call it Ab, thank you!

Your good singing keys depend a lot on your range. If you have two octaves, you can sing in any key. My two octave days are fading into the mists of time, but I can count on from C to F. Now, most singers have figured out there are two kinds of folk songs - those that range roughly from doh-to-doh, and the others from sol-to-sol. So in my case I would use D for the first kind, and G or A for the second kind. Or again, A flat.

== Johnny in Oklahoma City

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Nicole Leonard
Date: 22 Jul 00 - 03:48 AM

Believe it or not, I have the music for a harp piece that is in the key of Cb! (I play it in C). Flat keys are my favourite for singing, they sound and feel nicer, but I have no idea why. My personal favourite key is C minor.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny
Date: 22 Jul 00 - 05:18 AM

I believe it. Some modern composers are getting pretty "cute" with their notation. == Johnny

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 00 - 06:15 AM

What about all the notes in between the notes that they pay in Indian music? How do they write those down in the European convention? (More to the point, maybe, how do they write them down in India?)

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: oggie
Date: 22 Jul 00 - 07:50 PM

D or G please, playing other keys on a melodeon ain't fun and I have this bad habit of learning tunes on it first and then transferring (and sometimes transposing) to mandolin or whistle.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Gary T
Date: 22 Jul 00 - 11:19 PM

Mea culpa, I shouldn't have said there is no key of G#, but rather that it's a ridiculous nightmare to use. I don't see that C# is any better. In Banjo Johnny's latest example, why not start in Db and modulate to Ab? Is there any actual good reason to write something in the key of C# or G#, or Cb as mentioned by Nicole? Right now I'm thinking either I'm ignorant--certainly possible, educate me--or those composers are jackasses.

Who, me, opinionated?

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Jul 00 - 11:34 PM

I am puzzled by the reference to the piano tuning above. As far as I understand things, the piano has been tuned using equal temperament for about the last 150 years and using this system there should be no difference in intonation between each scale. The earlier system of Well temperment did produce such differences that were exploited by the composers of that time.

Jo

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 12:02 AM

The "in-betwteen" notes, as you called them, McGrath, are called quarter tones, or semi tones. They are usually denoted as double sharps or double flats in Western music, but that is not really correct either. A double sharp in Western music is 2 half tones, or a full step. Eastern music uses totally different scales and modes, and the only way I have ever seen to notate it in Western style is to use funky key signatures such as 2 sharps and 1 flat........still not truly correct, I am sure.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 12:50 AM

to Gary T - I don't write 'em, I just play 'em. Picture Danny Aiello saying, "Yo pally, I got yer G sharp right here!"

To Jon - Equal temperament means that all the scales are slightly out of (perfect) tune, but each in its own way. "Yo pally, I got yer equal temperament right here!"

== Johnny in OKC

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 08:20 AM

I prefer the key of Gee Wiz.
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: GUEST,Ely
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 10:38 AM

G or C (or anything that can be achieved using their chords and a capo). D and A chords make my hand cramp up.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Mooh
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 11:03 AM

Any key will do for me, though naturally I prefer the more "guitar-friendly" keys like G C D A E and related minors and modes.

If I may make a point about capos, in addition to the above well-stated arguments, the use of a capo allows the exploition of open strings. This simplifies sustain, drones, widely voiced chords, and so on.

I have been an avid user of capos since I first started playing guitar. Some songs sound better, regardless of key, with open chords, others with closed chords. However, as easy as it is to get closed chords without a capo, it is not possible to get open chords in any key without a capo. Therefor to get the open chord timbre, feel, sustain and ease, a capo is necessary.

An aside here, as alluded to in an above posting, double capoing is possible, and not too hard on intonation if the capo is placed properly (though some tweaking is likely necessary). A partial capo used above a full or partial capo can create open chord sounding tunings while maintaining standard tuning string intervals up the fingerboard. Strumming the open strings create a chord based on the positions of the capos. I have capos which form Em, Amaj(which when inverted sounds like dadgad up a tone), drop E (which can be used anywhere, not just at the second fret), and others which I use with these to get an Am, Emaj, etc. Other capos include those which I use for altering open G tuning. If you're interested in this stuff, I'd be pleased to hear from you. I figure I've got the cost of at least another decent guitar tied up in capos, and I admit I don't use them all the time, but I sure do love tinkering with them.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 12:08 PM

To get back to the question of what's a good key:

1. If it's a vocal piece, pay attention to the range, not the key. The highest note should be no higher than the D which is the second line of the staff. The lowest note should probably be no lower than the B below middle C. (for sopranos' sake)

2. I have small hands, and I find C hard to play and F impossible. I much prefer D,G, and A chords and their relatives.

3. I once told a guitar teacher (an expert one) that I had trouble with C, and he said, "You're not supposed to play C on the guitar."

4. Many, many traditional dance tunes are in G and D already, which means that others have memorized them that way. So go with the flow.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 12:57 PM

Thanks Bill for posting your infamous "Key of R"....it was the first thing that came to mind when I saw this thread title. Glad you posted it.

And Bert......I'm with you partner. We'd make one helluva duet pairing!!!

ONSTAGE TONIGHT!!!! THE DOUBLE FLATS!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Mooh
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 06:03 PM

Dear Leeneia.

Somebody actually told you you're not supposed to play C on guitar? Why, pray tell? There's nothing which shouldn't be played on guitar, in my honest opinion, except that which you don't want to play.

I agree with your first point. If a song is to be sung, it should be sung with the best use of the singer's voice, which means transposing if necessary. So for vocal stuff, the best key is the one which fits the singer and the song.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Gary T
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 10:59 PM

"I once told a guitar teacher (an expert one) that I had trouble with C, and he said, 'You're not supposed to play C on the guitar.'"

Wow! If he meant not to play a C chord, that would eliminate various songs in the keys of C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb.......Sure sounds like a screwy thing to say.

Subject: RE: Help: What Key Do You Like?
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 11:13 PM

1. I hope all you folks can transpose.
2. Most of what I am doing is not dance tunes, etc. It is Traditional folk/cowboy/hymns like Corinna,Corinna; Lonesome Valley, etc. These are songs I found in the DT that do not have tunes listed. I finally downloaded ABC2Win, and once I really learn to use it, this should be EZ. Still making dumb mistakes, though. Joe is probably tired of cleaning up after me.........
3. I am trying to pay attention to the range, but sometimes it is just an impossible tune to sing, sorry. (See Londonderry Air-----crikey, mikey!)

Thanks for all the input. Dick, Susan, Joe, et. al. may be really sorry I discovered this program.........I found about 30 songs in the DT that have no tune available, which I have tunes for.........Before I found Mudcat, I used to have a life. I am considering just sending the abc to Joe (or somebody?) instead of posting it on the forum. Any ideas on that? I guess if I post it, those who do abc could copy/paste and not have to wait for a MIDI.

MMario says there are only about 3,000 songs that do NOT have tunes..........uh? :>)