BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:40 AM

I don't see peace demonstrations stopping the current war phase in Iraq, unfortunately, but I would still encourage people who disagree with the Bush Administration's rationale for this war to participate in them, and be proud to do so! Maybe in this way we can curb some of the Administration's more "imperialist" plans for postwar Iraq, help insure that administration of the country be shifted to the UN or at least some broader coalition than the US, the UK, Australia, and an amazing collection of less than major nations (i.e., Ethiopia and Eritria!) that are willing to have their names added to the support roster.

Sure, such protests will raise questions in the minds of our troops in Iraq, and many will be righteously pissed. But they should know that the justification for this war was questioned before war started and continues to be questioned.

Sure, such protests will provide some comfort to what remains of the Iraqi leadership, but pretty cold comfort as their world continues to be blasted apart around them. They should surrender unconditionally but that doesn't seem to be their end-game.

And I don't doubt for a minute that participants of such protests will become increasingly villified in the press, and added to Ascroft's ever-growing list of disloyal citizens and non-citizens.

What do you think, Amos and Mick, am I totally off-base?

Peace,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:14 PM

By all means, lets have the UN administer things. They've done such a good job in places like Rwanda and Bosnia of protecting peoples lives that it stands to reason that they should now have a go at their rights.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:01 PM

Hey, Barry, I am with you. I need some time back in God's country. But unfortunately I am mired in some things right now, at work, that have life altering consequences. I will tell you more as it transpires. Not only that, but I am organizing a packing/slaughterhouse and things tend to get a little exciting when one is working with folks that carry knives. The supporters are great, but the ones who want you to disappear can have a radical view of how to accomplish that. They haven't got me in 27 years, but I want to make sure they don't get me for another 27 or so............hahahahaa.

Barry, I should have been a little clearer. It is my belief that the Vietnam era protesters did, in fact, have the largest role in ending that war. Not solely, but a very large role. And I thank them for it. The object of my post was to challenge the peace activists to examine their noble views a bit. It is not good enough, IMO, to just be against one ingredient of the soup. Despite what my friend Peter T. says, I saw nothing close to the amount of anger that is being expended now, expended on Saddam when he was doing these horrific things. I am with you in the quest for peace, but I ask again, what do we do with a truly evil man like Saddam who doesn't share your values and backs this up with horrible actions and weapons? Even using the most conservative numbers, he gassed several thousand of his own citizens. Every time I ask this question, someone glosses over it and goes back to castigating the US, and the President. I am with you on the castigating him on his lack of prowess in the diplomatic areas, but I ask you...........what would you do to stop the horrid repression of a people? How would you stop this man from killing the children of others? What would you do with a man who would kill you or imprison you for criticising him as you criticise President Bush and Prime Minister Blair here? I am not being flip or argumentative here, I am being sincere.

Charley, I never want the protesters to stop. Don't mistake my post for anything other than a little constructive criticism. I believe that your analysis is a correct one.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:29 PM

I see two pictures in my mind:
One a callous young man who just followed orders and did what soldiers have to do to win a war.
The other, a young soldier shaking his head in disbelief that he killed a woman when he aimed at an armed enemy.

Both of these young men will need our help when they return home if they are ever to resume a "normal" life. The damage to their minds and hearts is in some ways more insidious than the loss of an arm or a leg or an eye. Outside they will look the same; inside ...deep, permanent changes.

Sorry to keep harping on it but once the parades and flag waving are over, we have a moral obligation to care for these people. Actually, I am not sorry. Afterwards we damn well better take care of them and repay them for their sacrifices.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:32 PM

Amen, Mary, m'love.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:39 PM

Mary,Mick, thank you both. We must all work to make it so, that evil not be allowed to flourish and that the wounded not be left to languish as happened all too often with my generation.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:50 PM

There was "Human Interest" story on the radio yesterday. They were interviewing tattooists about what custom tattoos soldiers were requesting. It seems there is a rush on red/white/blue jobs of all types. And one man told of a horrific tattoo he designed and has been printing on Marines. It depicts the Marine eating his own child or wife...his choice. According to him, Saddam Hussein has sent a rumor thru his troops that Marines are the elite forces and qualify by murdering and eating their own young. The tattoos are there to instill terror should a captor be taken or a Marine found dead by the enemy.

The most chilling to me: the single most popular tattoo is called a "Grave Marker". The soldier has his name, Serial #, and Social Security # tattooed on his/her hip so that the body is more likely to be identified. How does a young man or woman find the courage to put themselves in harm's way knowing that they are very likely to die?

If Iraq invaded my country, I would be able to fight with a gun or a knife or a bomb strapped under my coat. I understand that. But I am dumbfounded by the resolve of these young people. And I am deeply saddened at the toll on their psyche.

That said, I repeat that I am against the American invasion of Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:07 PM

I've said this before, but I think I'll say it again: I don't know what is to the highest good of all concerned with regard to whether or not we should have waged a first strike war with Iraq. That is what I'm asking for, but as I said before, I'm not omniscient enough to know what that is. So I have not stated that I am either for or against this war in principle. When I have detected lies, disinformation, and questionable motives coming from the US or UK governments, or when I see the US and/or UK governments violating international treaties or internation law, I have tried to point these things out.

If this war is, indeed, the right thing for us to do, the governments of the US and the UK didn't need to lie or mislead the public in order to present their case. They could have, and should have just given it to us straight. That way, I, and many other people would not need to feel so distrustful of the appropriateness of what the US and UK governments are doing. They created this atmosphere of mistrust themselves.

It reminds me of when they started advertising school lunches (at least in the area where I was living at the time). Before then, school lunches were tasty and fairly nutritious. And the kids wanted to buy them. Then they started serving prefabricated, nasty tasting, lunches of dubious nutritive value. School kitchens started having difficulty keeping their operations going because the kids didn't like the stuff they were serving. Then they started advertising the school lunches on the local TV and in other ways. If the school lunches were any good, they wouldn't need to advertise them.

If this war was really for the benefit of anyone other than a bunch of rich power mongers, they wouldn't have to try to mislead us the way they have been in order to convince us that is is a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Tinker
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:04 AM

Thanks Mary, you captured my thoughts well... It's easy to judge others from a distance and easier still to distance ourselves from the pain...

Mick, rather than thread drift, here is a bit of a song for your new workin' conditions...BG....Meat Cuttin' Blues

Blessings
Tinker

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:17 PM

Bit of thread drift - but the comment on Bloodgroup etc tatoos triggered it.

1945 April, and the final collapse of Germany. XXX Corps would take prisoners, disarm them, and search for the tatoos.

Blood group etc ment that they were SS - escorted into the "cage", no tatoo "Go home Fritz" - Obvously a breach of the Geneava convention.

My late father had a story of the approach to Luneburg - a panzerfaust (Bazooka) was fired at the leading tank, it missed, the infantry riding on the back dismounted and found two young teenagers trying to reload. No they wern't shot out of hand, the Sergeant gave them a thrashing with his belt, and sent them home to mother.

Obvouosly Briish brutaltity against inocent civilians. I wonder what any reporter would have made of that.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:03 PM

"...beating the carp out of your neighbor." Go, Bobert! (Thanks for the smile, Bobert.)

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:29 PM

I like your father's story, Gareth.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:29 PM

As long as mother wasn't Ilsa Koch (or maybe if she was). yours, Peter T.