Tips for singer/songwriters

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:39 PM

The thing is, you're all right in a way.

i can see that all the advice is kindly meant. because I know most of the people in this thread as kindly decent people.

Guys like Jerry, Ron and Art - their words have meant more to me than I could ever explain, and they are part of the reason that Mudcat is a great enrichment of my life.

But you know, how ever much we fall short of our aims. the desire to create and perform is a noble and decent instinct. Sometimes God implants these notions into the heads of people who should never have picked up a guitar, and should be forcibly restrained from blowing their life savings on creating a cd - occasionally I feel like I'm one of them

Its like some people keep a caravan in the drive, but they work evry hour God sends and they never seem to go out in it - we all need that dream of freedom. so the caravan stays there in the drive, and those million cds stay there in the attic.

Most folk club organisers and as far as i can make out - all folk djs in england - don't regard what I do as folk music - even though I do try and focus on my life as its been lived in my songs. So on the rare occasions that i do get asked to do interviews or perform in folk clubs - its not all that good. My words are too hesitant - and (no pun intended) too earnest.

I always love listening to Glen Campbell, when he comes over to England to do radio interviews. he had his own radio show when he was 12, so he really knows how to pick songs (and instruments) that work live on the radio - and he knows how to say something to interest you in the song he's chosen.

however, some people, for personal reasons (or perhaps because there aren't many folk clubs where they live) get even less chance than I do to get their performing (and recording) right. the great Christy Moore once wrote me a post card, and signed off saying - let the music keep your heart light. Perhaps thats what people like us have to do

I think thats about right - even if you've got a million cds in the basemant - remember Paul Maccartney has warehouses full of his stuff, sitting mext there to Adam Ant, and last weeks latest music industry genius. like paul Simon says, every generation throws a hero up the pop charts.

all the best

al

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: FolkinReeGraves
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:56 PM

I read an excellent interview with Leanard Cohen where he talks about the whole notebooks that he would fill up just with one song. Sometimes, you just have to keep arranging and re-arranging them until it works for you...other times a song is floating around in your mind and you just throw it up all at once. Most of the time, I have the idea floating around for a while and then everyting jsut fits together and all the lyrics come out...and two days later I come back to it to tweak it a little. I know that that works best for me...but we are all different.

My advice to other singer-songwriters would be to find a group of writers who you think are increadible and do circle-rounds where you play for eachother and critique. Not only does it get you writing more than you normally would, but you have a supportive group around you who can really help you hone your craft.

And don't be afraid to mess up. It's the only way to get better.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 12:45 AM

Songs should appeal to the emotions of the audience.

Remember that laughter and happiness are emotions too.

If you are writing a song that takes the piss out of certain aspects of society or life, then make yourself the object of the piss taking.

Use cliches even though many will tell you not to. That way your wsong will be remembered. People love cliches, that's why they exist.

If you can't find a rhyme for a particular word then use that word earlier in the line and rhyme on something else.

Draw pictures with your words to set the scene for your song. Add props to illustrate your pictures then you can use a prop to create a rhyme.

Don't take yourself too seriously.

Don't put yourself down either. When you are on stage you are not only the best there is, you are the ONLY one there is. You are the greatest.

Your audience deserves the best that you can do.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Ernest
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:29 AM

"Those who want to be everybody`s darling will quickly end as everybody`s fool" (F.J. Strauß)

M.Ted: In your last post you "accused" me of giving unwanted advice - in the next paragraph you complain that many songwriters offer more than they get back - raises the question if anyone asked them to write songs in the first place? An attitude like "I am born as a great artist and you people in the audience are just to stupid to recognize it" is what really puts people of from singer/songwriters (and other artists as well).

If you don`t care for the audience, don`t expect the audience to care for you.

I started this thread as someone who - being often a part of the audience in folk-oriented venues - finds it a pity when someone who writes his own songs doesn`t get the recognition he deserves. Just for the record, I am no singer to speak of, but play a little harmonica and tenor banjo (mostly at home, sometimes with friends or at a beginner-friendly session): I think that makes me an educated part of the audience.

This is an open discussion forum, so I didn`t expect that everybody would agree with me or would find everything useful what I wrote. Pity those people whose friendships can`t stand dissenting opinions. And I am quite happy that we are covering different aspects as well as getting opinions from experienced performers like Jerry and Art or Radio people like Ron as well as people who are into music just for the love of it.

Best wishes
Ernest

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:44 AM

Getting back to Ernest's original thread title - DONT take any notice of anonymous guests who lay down THEIR Law as to how long a song should take to write - OK , so Hank Williams is quoted as saying that if a song took more than twenty minutes to write , it wasnt worth writing , but Keith Marsden who has written some absolutely superb songs used to spend months fine tuning HIS songs ! So dont use simple generalisations .

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM

How long is a piece of string?

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 03:57 PM

Earnest--I am sorry if you feel accused--it was only a point, not an accusation--and the other comment, that singer/songwriters(and most artists and entertainers) give a lot more than they get back--another observation, not a complaint, and I never, ever, said the audience was stupid!!!!

I am not saying what you think I am saying--what I am saying is that even a bad performance is a lot of work. Creating is an ongoing process of shaping and changing, and the performer is much more aware of the weaknesses than any audience member is--the thing is that this process is directed by the writer/creators own vision--

Your comments and suggestions, however well motivated(and I grant that you have only the best motives) are *your* vision, and when you offer them, you are, and likely completely unintentionally,imposing your vision on another artists work--

Unless someone actually asks for your advice, it isn't generally appreciated, no matter how right it seems to you--(and often, even someone says "What do you think?" they don't want critical answer)

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:31 PM

Maybe the disagreements that are arising in here are because for most of the history of recorded musicare you had to reach at least a certain level of experience and skill based on performing in front of an audience before you were recorded. Now, with the process of recording your music available to almost everyone, a lot of music is being recorded without the long years of growth that come from performing and honing your craft. Recording your music is a wonderful learning tool and I'd encourage all musicians, whether they are singer/songwriters or not to put your music down on tape or CD. To some extent, it can help to gain the experience that might otherwise have taken years to develop performing. I learned an enormous amount over the years recording my songs and music, multitracking harmonies and additional instrumental tracks. It's a terrific way to grow.

At the same time, I sympathize with anyone who is barraged with CDs to listen to. When I was running a concert series, I received a steady flow of cassettes and eventually CDs from people looking for a booking. For many years, I listened to every tape or CD I received and wrote a personal letter offering encouragement and making compliments where I could, with honesty. I know some musicians who were just beginning when I received a tape from them, and they went on to be very successful. They always remembered my encouragement, and when they had grown in skill I ended up booking them several times. As home-made CDs became more prolific, I reached a point where I couldn't keep up with the stack of unsolicited music in my mailbox. It was impossible to give a fair "listen" to every CD, or to send a personal letter thanking each person. That really bothered me, as I think it is very important to encourage musicians early in their development. We all started somewhere and weren't very good. Whether the musician every became "very good," or not wasn't the point. I just wanted to respect their commitment to trying to create music. Unless you've been in a position of being deluged with unsolicited CDs, many by musicians who haven't really developed to the point of being ready to seriously consider booking (or playing over the air) I think it's difficult to realize the problem that Ron and others like him have. No matter how sincerely you want to encourage people, just the shear volume of music you receive weighs you down.

And remember, most people who run folk shows work very hard at it, and give a lot of thought into programming their show in a way that the music flows and each track compliments the previous one. It's a lot of work and like much of the hard work that is done in the folk community, from doing radio programs to hosting a concert series, the people who have that love of the music receive far more criticism than expressions of appreciation.

So, Ron: Knowing you a little bit, I know that you are a generous man who has given countless hours of his time to promote and encourage appreciation of folk music. I think that you've stated your opinion in a carefully worded, sensitive way and I applaud you for that. I know that you are not trying to discourage young songwriters, or other musicians from testing their wings. Sometimes, they just try to fly a little too soon.

Thank you for your kind words, WeeLittle... keep working on your music and I'm sure that you'll bring enjoyment to others..


Jerry

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:34 PM

I do understand where Ron is coming from on this--I've helped sort the mail at a station such as Ron's, where the unsolicited CDs went from the mailbag into the trash bag, and so I suspect that the listening that he gives may be the only one that some of these folks ever get--Good on you for that!!

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 05:14 AM

I'll pick a bone with you if I may, M.Ted. You said a bit further up that "writers are born, not made". Now, you probably didn't mean that as absolutely as I read it, but my viewpoint is almost the exact opposite. What everyone is "born with" (or perhaps more accurately "learns early on" is the facilities to observe, to think, and to express oneself in whatever manner. Later on they may (or may not) hone these facilities to a finer point through education and/or life experiences, yet may still not be writing songs - they also need the motive. The latter, when and if it comes, may be anything from intense feelings that need to be externalised, to a desire for fame and fortune, to a need to be understood by the world, to a desire to pass on a message etc etc. Some of those motives are bad masters; some are better.

The point I am trying to make is that for someone to begin writing songs, many things have to click into place, and the starting up process is haphazard. Most people have the potential to write songs, unless limited by upbringing or physical disability, just as most people have the potential to learn to ride a bicycle. That only some do, is unfortunate, because we all miss their potential creations. This is where songwriting courses can help to unlock the potential.

On 20th April 2001, at the age of 48, if you'd asked me to write a song I would have laughed because I "knew" I was incapable of doing so. On 21st April I wrote my first song. It was more than a year later, and some 60 or so songs down the line (including a couple of my biggest "hits" like "Friends like this" and "Emptyhanded") that I dared think of myself as a songwriter. If I had been "born" to be one, I was certainly unaware of it before 21/4/2001 - and I am still not 100% certain what it was that allowed me to do so.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:03 PM

I'd thoroughly recommend going to any workshops on the subject run by Mick Ryan. He's done a couple of excellent ones for us at the Lewes Arms Folk Club in Sussex, UK (www.members.aol.com/lewesarmsfolk)
and is full of practical, helpful suggestions.

Mick is known for his ballad operas such as A Day's Work (First World War) and most recently The Navvies, as well as free-standing songs with a huge range of subject and mood.

Valmai (Lewes, Sussex, UK)

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 08:23 PM

Becoame doctors or lawyers.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 09:06 PM

If I had a venue booking singer/songwriters, a pre-req would be a sworn affadavit that they have read and understand Steve Rapson's book - Art of the Solo Performer. www.soloperformer.com

dw