Say what?-song lyrics defined

Subject: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 12:34 PM

Sometimes I easily "get" the meaning of words & phrases in folk songs & other songs. But other times the meaning of a particular word or phrase in a song is as murky as mud.

Maybe that's because words & phrases don't always live long and prosper. Sometimes words have a short life span, or they die out after being around for a very long time, and folk's memory of the word's meaning fades. Or the meaning changes over time and place.

Other words are brand new. Or they may be slang and their meaning may be known only to members of a specific culture within my country or outside of my country. Or a word or phrase may have multiple meanings, and what it means in a song depends on the context or the way the word is enunciated. Or a word or phrase may have no meaning whatsoever, and it's just the sound that counts.   

Be that as it may, there are times that I read some song's lyrics and think "Say what?!' I either don't have a clue what that word or phrase means or I've later found out that I attached the wrong meaning to it.

I don't think that I'm alone in wondering about the meaning of certain words & phrases in songs. And I believe that I may know the the meanings of some words & phrases that might be unfamiliar to other folks. So, that's the reason why I'm starting this thread.

I'll start this exploration of the meaning of specific words & phrases in songs [folk and otherwise]in my next post.

Please join in this discussion if you have a mind to.

And if you want to add the etymology of specific words being discussed, that would be great!

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 12:49 PM

I found this song while surfing the DigiTrad:

HILO, JOHNNY BROWN [excerpt]

Sally, she'm the gal that I love dearly
'Way, sing Sally!
Sally, she'm the gal that I love dearly
Hilo, Johnny Brown, stand to yer ground!

Sally she'm the gal that I spliced nearly,
Her lips is red an' her hair is curly,

Sally she'm a Badian beauty,
Sally-gal she'm know her dooty.

-snip-

@displaysong.cfm?SongID=2667

First off, I'm curious about the meaning of the word "hilo".

Does it mean "Hello?" But if so what about its use in this song:

CAN'T YE HILO?

Young gals love to dance wi' Jack
Young gals, can't ye Hilo?
I have always had me whack
Young gals can't ye Hilo?

-snip-

@displaysong.cfm?SongID=9224

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 01:01 PM

I'm also curious about the meaning of the word "whack" as found in that "Can't You Hilo?"

There's a current African American slang word "whacked" , meaning "crazy". But I figure that has nothing to do with this song.

I'm thinking "I've always had my whack" means "I can always get girls that I want [to have "romantic relations" with]. But that guess may be completely wrong.

Anybody know what that word means?

Another verse of "Can't You Hilo" reads:
"High brown, dark brown, yeller gals, O!
Lets all go on a big Hilo."

-snip-
The first sentence describes various skin colors of Black women:
Though I've not heard this term used, I'm thinking that "high brown" means "lighter brown". "Dark brown" is self-esplanatory, and "yeller" means very light brown skin to almost White in skin complexion.

****
Here's another guess about the word "hilo"-Maybe "Let's go on a big Hilo" means "Lets 'party hardy'" as people are relaxed and greeting each other at parties [hilo=greeting??]

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 01:07 PM

I'm also wondering about the meaning of the word "spliced" in the HILO, JOHNNY BROWN song that I quoted

The sentence is "Sally she'm the gal that I spliced nearly".

I'm thinking that this word has a sexual meaning, but-then again- my mind is probably in the gutter

;o)

And, for the information of those who may not know, "Badian" as used in the line "Sally she'm a Badian beauty", is the same as "Bajan".
The word means "a person from Barbados".

[My maternal grandmother was from Barbados, so I was glad to learn the meaning of that word]

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Crane Driver
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:01 PM

British slang -

Spliced - splicing is a method of joining two ropes into one, hence also used as a term for getting married (officially or otherwise).

To "get your whack" generally means to get all that's due to you - your wages, perhaps (though not in the song quoted).

Hilo is the name of a port (Haiwaian, I think, but there's also a port called Ilo in South America) - songs refer to "going to Hilo" in that sense - it may have been used with some other meaning, or a shantyman may have just liked the sound of the word, or deliberately confused it with 'Hello' for effect. Hard to tell, with songs - sometimes expressions are just there for the song, and don't reflect usage in everyday speech at all.

Can't be any more help, I'm afraid.

Andrew.

PS - I did know about (Bar)Badian too.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:37 PM

Thanks for that info, Crane Driver.

Here's an escerpt from http://wwwa.britannica.com/eb/article-9040486

"Hilo city, seat of Hawaii county, northeastern Hawaii island, Hawaii, U.S. It lies along Hilo Bay and is the island's business centre. Polynesians settled the area about AD 1100, establishing agricultural and fishing communities. Christian missionaries arrived c. 1822 and were followed by whaling and trade ships that did business in Hilo's port..."

-snip-

I like your statement that "...with songs - sometimes expressions are just there for the song, and don't reflect usage in everyday speech at all".

I agree that sometimes that's true. But sometimes it's not.

And with regards to the definition of "Bajan", I was just showing off something I learned not that long ago. It's something that I feel that I should have known, given the fact that my grandmother was from that Caribbean island.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:40 PM

I pushed submit too fast. I was going to add "It's better late than never" {to learn important information, as well as not so important but still interesting information}.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:47 PM

"High brown, dark brown, yeller gals, O!"

In The Black Bottom, (1926, by Henderson de Sylva & Brown you will find:

Every high brown girl and her buddy
Go down where the flats are muddy
To do a dance that soon will be renowned

and also

Old fellers with lumbago
And high yellers away they go
They jump right in and give it all that they've got

and there is also a song called At the high brown babies' ball

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:50 PM

"Hilo" in the Hawaiian Islands was quite a signifucant poort in tyen sufgar trade in the 19th century, and that's what would have been meant sometimes when the word crops up - eg "Johnny came down from Hilo".

But what looks like the same word needn't always mean the same thing - these songs weren't written down at the time. I suspect at times "Hilo" might actually have been "haul-o", marking the signal for a concerted heave.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:53 PM

Hilo town is in Peru
Away to Hilo
It's just the place for me and you
Tom's gone to Hilo

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 04:04 PM

Okay, I believe taht the meaning of "spliced" and "whack" and maybe even "Hilo" has been solved [and maybe not].

And Crane Driver's comment made me think of this expression that means something different than it means in its literal sense:

"Ah, Sukey Sukey! {also given as "Ah Sukey Sukey now!"}

"Sukey" is a diminutive form of the female name "Susan". However, at least in the United States, that nickname is seldom used anymore.
I believe that the phrase "Ah, Sukey Sukey!" came from that nickname
but has nothing to do with any female name. Instead, it is an expression of approval for a woman's sensual appearance or seductive dance movements. In that sense, "Sukey" borrows some of the coded meaning the somewhat similar sounding word "suck", though
sukey, or sookey is pronounced "SUE-key".

I've heard this expression spoken by men as an expression of the way a woman looks. Here's an example of the use of this expression in a song:

GROOVE ME {Artist: King Floyd}
Uhh! Awww, sookie sookie now!
Hey! Oww, uhh! Come on, baby!
Hey there, Sugar Darlin',
Let me tell you something
Girl, I've been trying to say, now.
You look so sweet,
And you're so doggone fine.
I just can't get you out of my mind.
You've become a sweet taste in my mouth, now.
And I want you to be my spouse,
So that we can live happily, nah-nah,
In a great big ol' roomy house.
And I know you're gonna groove me, baby.
Ahh, yeah, now.
You make me feel good inside.
Come on, and groove me, baby.
I need you to groove me.
Ahhh, yeah, now, now, darling.
Uhh! Come on, come on!
Hey! Uhh!
Hey there, Sugar Darlin',
Come on, give me something
Girl, I've been needing for days.
Yes, I'm good, good loving,
With plenty, plenty hugging.
Ooh, you cute little thang, you.
Girl, between you and me, nah-nah,
We don't need no company.
No other man, no other girl
Can enter into our world,
Not as long as you groove me, baby.
Ahh, come on.
Make me feel good inside.
Come on and groove me, baby.
Move me, baby.
Ahh, sock it to me, mama.
Uhh! Ahh, I like it like that, baby.
Uhh! Groove me, baby! Hey! Uhh!
Groove me, darling!
Come on, come on.
I need you to sock it to me, mama.
Come on and groove me, baby.
Hey! Uhh! Good, God!
It makes me feel so good inside, mama.
Now, come on, come on, and uhh,
Groove me, baby, groove me, baby.
Ahh, sock it to me,
Sock it to me,
Rock it to me.

Source: http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/swingers/grooveme.htm

-snip-

Less frequently, I've also heard "Ah Sukey Sukey, now" used as a more generalized expression of approval for something someone has said that was particularly daring, for instance a statement that is not at all cautious or nicey nicey but one that might cause folks to "get right down to the real nitty gritty" of a matter.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 06:00 PM

Not that it matters very much in the scheme of things, but here's a correction to what I wrote earlier:

I'm not sure how to write it phonetically, but "Sukie" rhymes with "looky" and "booky".

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 May 06 - 06:28 PM

Azizi,

I hope you will consult Joe Offer next time-- there is a form of thread called "DT Study" where discussions are grouped together, song by song, to avoid splitting a discussion so that later searches and DT updates are easier.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 06:43 PM

WYSIWYG,

Say what?

I have no idea what you mean by what you wrote in your 07 May 06 -06:28 PM post.

I would appreciate it if you would break it down for me, and any others who also might not have understood your comment.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 06 - 06:49 PM

Surely the DT Study idea is about exploring a particular song in its variants, but Azizi isn't really doing that, but rather is looking at how some common element can crop up in a range of songs.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 07:15 PM

Thanks McGrath of Harlow.

This thread [as other threads that I've started lately] is indeed meant to look at how some common elements crop up in a range of songs. It is also meant to increase our understanding about the meaning of specific words & phrases found in one song and/or a number of songs.

And, as I'm sure McGrath of Harlow and others posting to this thread know, this thread is not just for [or about] me.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 May 06 - 07:26 PM

There is a form of thread called "DT Study" where discussions are grouped together, song by song, to avoid splitting a discussion so that later searches and DT updates are easier.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 07 May 06 - 07:31 PM

Azizi - Re: sukey or sookie - in some spots on the east coast of Canada, it's used to mean something like feminine and appealing, but not in the sense of alluring or sensual, more in the sense of "girlie", something like "cute" or "sweet". Not at all a widespread term, but as I say it is used in spots.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 08:05 PM

Thurg, thanks for that information. I'm wondering, on the east coast of Canada, is the word "sukie" used as an adjective and/or as part of an expression? And does any particular group [race/ethnicity] use this word or expression more than others?

Also, "Akosua" is one form of then Akan {Ghana, The Ivory Coast] female name that means "female born on Sunday" {"Kwesi" is the male form of that name}.

I'm not sure what's the correct pronunciation of "Akosua", but if the accent is put on the second to the last syllable as is the case with a lot of "English" names, Akosua would be pronounced ah-koo-SUE-ah. So does this have anything to do with "Ah Sukey Sukey?"

Maybe. Maybe not.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 08:08 PM

Correction: In the second sentence of my last post in this thread,
then=the.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 06 - 10:12 PM

Good thread, Azizi. Wish I had something to add. When I do, I will.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:18 PM

Thanks, Peace. That's cool. Or should I say "That's groovy."

And speaking of cool and groovy, check out this online comment on the slang word "cool" which includes groovy as one of that word's synonyms:

"Our Living Language
The usage of cool as a general positive epithet or interjection has been part and parcel of English slang since World War II, and has even been borrowed into other languages, such as French and German. Originally this sense is a development from a Black English usage meaning "excellent, superlative," first recorded in written English in the early 1930s. Jazz musicians who used the term are responsible for its popularization during the 1940s. As a slang word expressing generally positive sentiment, it has stayed current (and cool) far longer than most such words. One of the main characteristics of slang is the continual renewal of its vocabulary and storehouse of expressions: in order for slang to stay slangy, it has to have a feeling of novelty. Slang expressions meaning the same thing as cool, like bully, capital, hot, groovy, hep, crazy, nervous, far-out, rad, and tubular have for the most part not had the staying power or continued universal appeal of cool. In general there is no intrinsic reason why one word stays alive and others get consigned to the scrapheap of linguistic history; slang terms are like fashion designs, constantly changing and never "in" for long. The jury is still out on how long newer expressions of approval such as def and phat will survive."

http://www.answers.com/topic/cool

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: number 6
Date: 08 May 06 - 12:07 AM

Then along came 'kewl' ... I think that means something that is really, really cool.

Groovy ... back in the 60's there was a hit song by Wayne Fontana and the Mindbenders called a "Groovy Kind of Love" ... a Shmaltzy kind of song but the harmony was appealing ... anyway, I remember someone telling me it was all about corduroy condoms.

Oh well Azizi ... that's the best I can come up with for this thread right now.

sIx

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 06 - 12:36 AM

Hey sIx. It's kewl.

You and Peace and whoever don't have to work to find something to come up with in this thread.

My philosophy is let it flow. If there are no more posts to this thread, it's all good.

As a result of starting this thread I've learned about the meaning of Hilo and splice and whack. And I found out more info about sukie sookie. And I found out that some people get where I'm comin from, and some people don't and that's all good too. I even found out that there's something called a DT Study, though I still don't know what that has to do with the price of beans in Boston.

And so I'm cool & the gang.

Ain't Mudcat fun?!

Sometimes, yes.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 08 May 06 - 01:00 AM

Re: sukey/sookie/sukie. I just remembered that this term is used fairly commonly downeast in a slightly different sense than the one I mentioned earlier. "Sook" (noun) and "sookie" (adjective) can mean something like the slang "suck" and "suckie" (as in "don't be a suck, suckie baby") but is usually much gentler; more affectionate than contemptuous - a toddler wanting to snuggle with his mother is a "sook"; the same toddler making a fuss because he can't have a lollipop is a "suck". Despite the similarity in sound, I think the terms have separate etymologies; the issue gets confused though because "sook" is sometimes used as a euphemism for "suck" - someone starts out to say "suck" but decides to soften it to "sook". And kids will sometimes apply it sarcastically to one another.

I don't associate "sook" with any particular ethnic group. Someone I was talking to once suggested that it might come from the Mother Goose rhyme Polly Put the Kettle On, the second verse of which has a character named Sukey doing something equally domestic (I forget what exactly). That seems a bit of a stretch to me, though ...

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 06 - 01:12 AM

Oh, children's rhymes! I love children's rhymes.

POLLY PUT THE KETTLE ON
[A Mother Goose Nursery Rhyme]

Polly put the kettle on,
Polly put the kettle on,
Polly put the kettle on,
We'll all have tea.
Sukey take it off again,
Sukey take it off again,
Sukey take it off again,
They've all gone away.

-snip-

"Polly put the kettle on" was published in 1797. The origin of "Polly put the kettle on" was based on the author having five children - two boys and three girls. There were constant arguments as the boys wanted to play soldiers and the girls wanted to play house! When the girls wanted to play without their brothers they would pretend to start a game of tea party "Polly put the kettle on" and the daughter, called Polly, would put the toy kettle on! As soon as the brothers left Sukey (or Susan) would take it off again! Their father was so amused by this ploy that he set it to words and added the music which were subsequently published."

http://www.rhymes.org.uk/polly_put_the_kettle_on.htm

****

I also believe suck and sook have different etymologies. I think Sookie came from Susan and I guess my theory about Akosua being the source for "Ah sukie sukie" probably sucks. But, hey, most anything is possible, right?

No??

Oh well.

I'm still learning. And I'm still havin fun. So there!
{This said with "attitude"}.


;o)

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 May 06 - 01:37 AM

Azizi, a book you might be interested in is a slave story, "Reminiscences of Isaac and Sukey," by L. C. Capehart, on line at http://docsouth.unc.edu/neh/capehart/menu.html.
Sukey is used among whites as a nickname for Susan, or rarely as a given name, pronounced 'sue-key'. The nickname originated in England, and as posted above, is known in eastern Canada as well as the States. It seems equally popular among African-Americans. The well-known Caribbean children's writer, Sans Souci, has a little girl named Sukey as the main character in a current book.
As a child, I knew a girl nicknamed Sukey (from Susan), and a friend had a mare named Sukey.

Much of the rest here may be duplication and cross-posting, but I hope some will add to what went before.
Hilo, Hawai'i and Ilo, Peru, have caused confusion here before, and the chantey-singers smile knowingly when we make mistakes. Both were important in the days of sail, Ilo for raw materials (and prostitutes ashore) and Hilo for whale rendering, fresh produce, and girls (brown-skinned in both places). The names got mixed up because of their similarity in pronunciation.

Whack has the meaning assigned by Crane Driver, to get my due, and also as a name for savings. Both meanings are found in the Thieves Dictionary of Grose (1780's). Whacked, meaning zonked out or out of one's mind, is not uncommon- don't know its origin.
Splice is a very old north European word. Later, Capt. Smith (1627) in his "Seamans Grammar" described several splices, which are (or were) important to mariners.
The word splice as a reference to marriage is noted in 1830 (OED), but probably it is older.

As noted in another thread, 'cool' is a chameleon, constantly changing popular meaning through time. Chaucer and later Shakespeare used it to mean lack of vitality. Not heated by passion or emotion, unexcited, goes back to Beowulf (A.D. 282 in print). To mean 'assured and unabashed' entered novels in the 1820's with the spy novel of Westmacott. Now it means 'great' or the 'Cat's pyjamas.'
I'm afraid "Our Living Language" lacks any historical perspective on the popular or slang uses of the word.

Azizi, thanks for posting "Groove Me." Hadn't heard that before. Dizzy Gillespie's 'Groove' in the sense of providing pleasure (1945) is quoted in the Oxford E. D. (lyrics to his "Groovin' High."

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 May 06 - 02:03 AM

"Azizi, just looked at the survey outline on 'cool' in "Our Living Language," and it hits the high points. To me, however, the lack of quotations with dated placement in time is off-putting. The style reminds me of editors who are trying to be 'hep'- some ninety years after the word came in with ragtime.
The OED is still irreplaceable.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:22 AM

Q, I very much appreciate your well documented information.

You're probably right that "The OED is still irreplaceable". I've got to get a copy one of these days.

But since the English language is living, I'm wondering how a print dictionary [let alone an online dictionary] keeps pace with newly coined words & phrases as well as changes in slang and other colloquial expressions.

For instance, imo "cool" has changed meanings and is much less a superlative than it used to be. And groovy was played out for at least 20 years if not longer. You can still hear African American youth, young adults and urban radio hosts saying "That's cool" {meaning "That's alright"}. But if African Americans of a certain age and occupation want to [informally] say that something is great, they say "That's off the chain". "Off the chain" used to be "off the hook". An earlier way of saying that was "That's the bomb." "The bomb" came from something "blowing up". And something blowing up may have come from something exploding or something "smokin" and being "hot".

Of course, there may be other terms newer than "off the chain" that mean the same thing as this, but that is the phrase I've been hearing on the radio and elsewhere for at least the last few years.

****

And thanks, Q for suggeting that book "Reminiscences of Isaac and Sukey". I'll have to read it. The nickname "Sukey" may be more common among Black females in the Caribbean. I think it is rarely used-let alone popular among African American females from at least the mid 1950s to now. As a matter of fact, I've only known a few Black females named Susan. And I'm afraid that any African American girl or woman with the name Sukey would have to endure alot of teasing-or change her name.

****

Re "Hilo", the meaning of "Hilo" as "the name of a port in Hawaii or Peru" don't seem to work with all of the uses of that word in folk songs. For instance, Hilo, Johnny Brown, stand to yer ground!" does seem to use "Hilo" as a substitute for "hello" as Crane Driver suggested may occur. And "Young gals, can't ye Hilo?" doesn't seem to be short for "Can't you [go to] Hilo?"

I'm just sayin...

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:45 AM

OED gets revised about once a year.
The press usually makes a story about what new words are in.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 May 06 - 02:05 PM

The OED is really an international effort. I remember some years ago before computers became compact and cheap, Waterloo University in Canada aided in the preparation of an edition. As far as I know, documented usages are accepted from anyone.
Of course the printed editions are spaced a few years apart, so many of the new entries are really 'catch-up'. As you say, it can't keep up, so for the serious, one of the journals devoted to language must be subscribed to. There is always the internet, but it contains much mis-information which takes time to evaluate and discard.

The IIed. edition Oxford is 20 volumes. It has been photo-reduced to one volume, with nine full pages reproduced on each page in the "Compact Oxford..." A magnifier is provided- frankly, I don't know how easy this is to use. Moreover, it is the 1989 2nd. edition which will be 20 years old soon. I have the 2-vol. 1975 edition with suppl. vol. 3 (1987) which I am used to, and is still good despite the many additions in the last 20 years. I will stick with it a while longer. Used sets of the three volumes are reasonable ($100 or so).
An on-line subscription is quite expensive. The 'Compact...' is $249 from Amazon and used copies are listed. It seems to me that all school libraries should have a copy, but few do.

Hilo- I guess I didn't explain it well, but to an old salt, 'to Hilo" meant to partake of all the good things there- girls, dancing, drinking, etc. "Young gals, can't ye Hilo?" in a chantey was sung on shipboard as a halyard chantey; it would not be put to the gals in just that way. With regard to the Caribbean chanteys, there is another explanation.
As Stan Hugill explains in "Shanties From the Seven Seas," Hilo "was a substitute word for a 'do,' a 'jamboree', or even a 'dance'. And in some cases, the word was used as a verb- to 'hilo' somebody or something. In this sense its origin and derivation is a mystery. Furthermore, since shanties were not composed in the normal manner, by putting them down, it is on paper quite possible that many of these 'hilos' are nothing more than 'high-low', as Miss Colcord has it in her version of 'We'll Ranzo Ray'. Take your pick!"

"Hilo Johnny Brown" is believed to be of "Negro origin." Hugill gives two more of Caribbean origin, "Hilo, Boys, Hilo," and "Hilo, Come Down Below." "Helo, Johnny Brown" also is known as "Stand to Yer Ground."
I would guess that the 'High-Low' explanation would apply to these.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 May 06 - 02:11 PM

(Hilo, not 'Helo'). The other two also are halyard chanteys.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 08 May 06 - 06:48 PM

Just for the record: I didn't say that "Sukey" is common in eastern Canada as a nickname; in fact, I have never heard it used that way, although I would concede that it could well have been common as a nickname at some earlier point in history. "Sook/suke" and "sookie/sukey" are common as words but not as names in the Maritimes.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:53 PM

thurg, Sorry that I mis-read your post.
Sukey was common in the past; there are many in genealogical records. A Sukey Hart from the American Revolutionary War has had her name applied to a chapter of Daughters of the American Revolution in Georgia that an in-law of mine helped start.
It is still common today- look through some of the 293,000 hits on Google

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 06 - 11:04 PM

Hello!

This thread has mainly focused on the word "Hilo", and the word/name "Sukie", and that's fine with me.

But using that first word as a base of operations [so to speak],
I'd like to expand the discussion.

As a result of a search of the DigiTrad, I found this shanty:

THE GALS O' CHILE
To Chile's coast we are bound away
Tim me heave-ho, hang 'er Hilo
To Chile's coast we are bound away
An' we'll dance an' all drink pisco!
We are bound away at the break o' day
Where the little Spanish gals are so bright an' gay
Tim me heave-ho, hang 'er Hilo
Sing olay for them Dago gals!

An' when we get to Vallipo,
Timme heave-ho etc.
An' when we get to Vallipo,
We'll dance etc.
Dance the gals up the street with a roll-'n'-go,
Grab 'em round the middle an' we won't let go.
Timme etc.

Them gals o' Chile, they are hard to beat.
From truck to keel they are trim an' sweet,
They're all a-pullin' on the ol' main-sheet.

Them senoritas, they are smart and gay,
They dance an' drink till the break o' day,
Then clean ye out an' blow yer pay.

Rosita, Anna, and Carmen too,
They'll greet ye with a hullabaloo,
An' soon ye'll know what they can do.

My trim little frigate is a very smart craft,
She's armed to the teeth both fore 'n' aft,
Sharp at the bows with a fine view abaft.

Them ol' senyoras, as we know well
They're red-hot divils drom the other side o' hell
An' ye'll niver get a chance for to ring a Chile bell

When the time comes for to sing farewell
Goodbye to the gals an' our money as well
Callyo, Coquimbo, an' ol' Corynel

From Shanties from the Seven Seas, Hugill
@sailor @work
filename[ GALCHILE
TUNE FILE: GALCHILE
http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=6349

It seems that the "Hilo" here is probably "high/low" as per a Miss Colcord [if I understood Q's very interesting & informative 08 May 06 - 02:05 PM post correctly}.

And btw, I'm deligted to see that I guessed correctly that hilo might also mean "party hardy" ["hardy" here meaning 'alot' or really have fun at parties/dances].

However, I was struck by the use of 'dago' in that THE GALS O' CHILE
song. I looked up that word through Google, and the first hit was the online American Heritage Dictionary. Here's an excerpt of that entry:

da·go
NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. da·gos or da·goes
Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for an Italian, Spaniard, or Portuguese.
ETYMOLOGY: Alteration of Spanish Diego, a given name, from Latin Iacbus, Jacob.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/60/D0006000.html

-snip-

I've been interested in name orgins & meanings for a while, but I had forgotten that the Spanish name 'Diego' was the root word for 'dago'. I knew that that word was a disparaging term for an Italian, but I didn't know that it also was used to disparge Spaniards, and Portuguese.

However, in that shanty quoted above, it seems to me that the girls from Chile were complimented. In that song, anyway, the "d" word * does not appear to be used as an insult.

I'm wondering if the Q or anyone else can provide some information about when this word became largely or totally a negative referent.

*Hereafter, when I post about the word, I am using the substitute "the 'd- word'". I feel that I have to be consistent since I use "the n-word" as a substitute for the word "n----r". I do so because of that word is considered highly offensive by me and by many but not all Black people. I recognize that during US and other forms of chattel slavery, some Black people in the South used the
n-word as a non-disparaging general referent for themselves and other Black people. But, I personally cringe when I hear that word and thus can't bring myself to dignify it by spelling it out. As a matter of fact, my aversion to that word, almost caused me to discontinue my study of secular African American slave songs. I also think that this aversion to the n-word and its common use in African American secular slave songs, is one of the main reasons these songs are rarely studied by Black people. I think two other reasons why African American secular slave songs these songs are rarely known and studied by African Americans and other Black people is because of the difficulty in understanding the meanings of dialectic words of those songs and the view that these songs may give support to the stereotypical image of the happy slave.

I reject that image of Black people being content in their servitude. And I believe that social singing & and dancing {as well as religious singing and religious dancing such as 'the shout"} gave my ancestors the strength to 'get over' the rigors and the horrors of chattel slavery.

I mean "get over" not in its current usage as someone who succeeds in pulling a fast one, but as that phrase is used in this African American spiritual that can still be heard today:

HOW I GOT OVER
How I got o-o-o-ver.
How I got o-o-o-ver.
{You know} my soul sits back and wonders
my soul sits back and wonders
how I got o-o-o-ver.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 06 - 11:13 PM

I have to chuckle at my typo of "the Q" for Q.

I didn't mean to type it, but since I did so, I have to say that in a way it fits.

And, thank you. I needed that chuckle, given where I ended up in my last post.

And, lsince I'm here, let me also take this opportunity to again publicly thank you Q. If you hadn't wandered to my website www.cocojams.com some years ago and invited me to visit Mudcat,
I probably would have never known about this forum.

I am learning & growing as a result of my varied Mudcat experiences.
And, sometimes, I am even having fun.

My sincerest appreciation to you, Q.


Azizi

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 06 - 02:02 AM

The word people aren't sure about 'dago'. Acc. to the OED, it is "supposed to be a corruption of Diego (Spanish equivalent of James)."
The OED: "A name originally given in the southwestern section of the United States to a man of Spanish parentage; now extended to include Spaniards, Portuguese and Italians in general.
1838- 'American, 18 July- "The shrimps... are caught by Dagos."
1890- N. Y. Nation- "Mr. Reed makes no effort to conceal his contempt for this proposition to trade with a lot of "dagoes" as he calls them."
1723- Bumstead in New England Hist.... "The negro dago hanged for fiering Mr. Powell's house."
1832- Wines, in "Two Years in Navy"- "These Dagoes (of Minorca) as they are pleasantly called by our people were always a great pest"
(English and American sailors esp. hated them). Many references could be put here.
1858- Knickerbocker- "And so, Bill, you served as ingineer with these 'ere blamed dagos, you say."
1833- "Old Sailors Yarns"- "We shan't be called away till ten or eleven o'clock when all the dagos are asleep."

The word seems to have been used disparagingly from the beginning. It should be understood, however, that in the 18th and 19th centuries (and beyond), outside of the upper classes (and even there), ANY foreigner was looked upon with contempt by most people from the British Isles (and by extension English-speaking North Americans, Australians, etc.), and given a variety of disparaging names. For the Mediterranean peoples, these names were many.

I doubt that the name originated in the southwestern States; the early reference to Minorcans, etc., suggest a European origin. The 1723 reference also makes the statement in the OED doubtful; at the time the southwestern area of what is now the United States was still under Spanish rule and very, very few gringos were allowed in to trade.
Early reference to 'dagos' in New Orleans (including Sicilians, Corsicans, Maltese and Greeks- thus foreigners in general) suggests that if the term did originate in America, it more likely did so in coastal states with many foreigners.
In 1877, Bartlett, a great historian of the Americas, said: "Dagos. Originally people of Spanish parentage, born in Louisiana, now applied there to Italians, Sicilians, Spanish and Portuguese."

Part of the above from Lighter, "Historical Dictionary of American Slang," vol. 1; the rest from the OED.
(Unfortunately, it seems that vol. 3 of Lighter's magnum opus will never be published since the first two did not make a profit for Random House- a bad choice for a publisher).

The "Gals of Chile" was sanitized. Hugill says he altered both the verses and refrains to make them printable.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 May 06 - 02:29 AM

Hi Q,
I'm very interested in your theory of Hilo. I tend not to agree with you but can't find anything that supports or rejects your idea. Could you post where in Colcord & Hugill's books & point me in the right direction (I have a couple of Hugill's & Roll & Go of Colcord's). I read alot but I'm afraid I retain a little less & thought that this was something that woulld've caught my eye & stood out but then I can't stand up for my memory. Thanks, I'd really apprecate this alot.

There's a varient of "Johnny Come Down With A Hilo" from the West Indies called "Johnny Come Down To The Hilo", but on the field recordings the source states he doesn't know what "the Hilo is" (see Deep the Water Shallow the Shore - Roger Abrahams).

Hi Azizi
From what I've read about yesterday's sailors I'd think that they're not that bigoted in their language to have insulted, rather I believe they used terms, that we, today would consider as derogatory, as an international usage for a term maybe not of endearment but of a more casual friendly term of association. Like "here's a guy I work with on board, meet Jose we call him Dago. Hi my name's Jose but Chink here calls me Dago". Nothing   disparaging. These guys weren't reared with the well educated (mostly) & creed, color & race didn't mean all that much when the guy behind you on a line might hold you from going over the side with the next roller that washes acrosses the deck. The next time you call him a big buck nigger he knows that you're glad that he was big & that he grabbed you & he knows that you don't care a hoot if he's a white elephant, you know you're gonna grab him the next time & save his big fat white/black/yellow/brown ass from going over & when the whole mix of you go ashore & get drunk & have a barroom brawl you know your mate, no matter what you call each other, is gonna risk his life watching your back.

There is another shantey, Hugill calls it The "Saltpeter Shantey",
Colcord has it from Captain Robinson's Bellman as "Slav Ho" (see the corrupted spainish chorus & what Colcord says about it). In Hugill's version the line in the 3rd verse starts "Them putas o' Chile, they're so hard to beat, Oh, roll". Growing up in a mixed neighborhood I wouldn't use the word putas (a coruption of spanish)
to discribe a female because it's very insulting & derogatory but here it's used without the vulgar, derogatoy overtones.


Another shantey "Yellar Gals" or "Doodle Let Me Go" or "Do Let Me Go"
the doodle & the do don't sit right to my thinking. In the Caribbean Dou Dou is a term (not derogatory) term for a island girl or woman
it seems to me that the song may have been a coruption of "Dou Dou Let Me Go" instead. Dou Dou is found to be in a few shanties. In Roller Bowler "As I roved out one morning I met a Dou Dou fair". Another West Indian shantey, St. Peter Down In Courland Bay starts off "Darling do do I'm going to St. Peter's Day". Any thoughts on this?

Anyway, I'm enjoying watching this thread.

Barry

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 06 - 03:09 PM

Barry, I am not knowledgeable enough about the shanties to have my own theory- my ideas are from Hugill and others who have studied the subject. I am not sure which 'Hilo' interpretation you are questioning since I gave three from Hugill.
Quotes from Hugill, "Shanties from the Seven Seas," (p. 183 and following):
"But in some of these Hilo shanties it was not a port, either in Hawaii or Peru, to which they were referring. Sometimes the word was a substitute for a 'do', a 'jamboree', or even a 'dance'. Furthermore, since these shanties were not composed...on paper... quite possibly many of these 'hilos' are nothing more than 'high-low', as Miss Colcord has it..." Hugill then gives "Hilo, Johnny Brown" and the other two shanties of Negro origin from the Caribbean, mentioned in my previous post (the only ports mentioned in these three are Mobile and, indirectly, the Barbados). Hugill mentions "We'll Ranzo Ray" in this respect, as given by Colcord.

Puta- prostitute (Diccionario de la Lengua Española, Royal Spanish Academy).
Many imitations of Spanish words ('dago phrases') and obscene and derogatory phrases from shanties (such as the Saltpetre chantey) were changed or removed (Hugill, pp. 376-377 and elsewhere) and what is published is a poor imitation of the song as sung by men on the sailing vessels.
Many of the shanties in print have been re-written and sanitized.

What you say about cooperation among shipmates, regardless of origin, is mostly true, at least on ships with mixed crews, but in the navies of England and U. S., foreigners were usually regarded disparagingly. There are many contemporary writings by mariners containing derogatory remarks about other peoples.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:12 PM

Thanks Q for the leading. I did find where Hugill talks of Hilo& following that brought me to your mention of Colcord. I was most interested, not in Hilo or Ilo as place names but it's use as a verb. Thanks again.
I do agree that in the Navies there were a different kind of sailor where the phyical differences were more a cause of concern. I do belive the start of this (in the Navies) happen after the time of the Civil War but in the merchant lines this (the sea) was a place of last resort for sailor of color or differences. As the work became harder because of shorter crews (even though there was advances in machinery), & the pay bacause less of a living wage & treatment was less harsh elsewhere, the sailors of color & differences stayed where they knew there was a job & where they were likely to be treat more as an equal, while white greenhorns started to only make fewer & fewer passages & sought out other forms of employment.
Any way a lot of this should be for a different thread.
Thanks
Barry

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:47 PM

Hilo may have usually been pronounced as High-low, but not always. Here's a version collected by J M Carpenter in 1929 from Mr J S Scott at London:

Tommy's gone to Liverpool
Highlow, Heelo
Tommy's gone to Liverpool
Tom's gone to Heelo

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:57 PM

Hi Snuffy, sometimes I think that it just didn't matter. Hilo, Ilo, Hello, Highlow, Hello, Heelo even Jello would've worked. To any sailor with a speech disorder it probably sounded great to just keep it rolling off the tongue, no matter how it's spelt & they probably couldn't have cared less anyway.
Barry

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:04 PM

I think Dago would generally be taken as meaning Spanish or Portuguese rather than Italian in the UK.

In shanties and suchlike I don't think the term should be taken as particularly disparaging, any more than a term such as "Spanish".

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:06 PM

How abot a perma-thread for meanings of odd, unusual or unfamiliar words in songs? It's a deserving subject.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:01 PM

Bunnahabham, I agree. I think Azizi had that idea in the back of her mind. Study threads for specific songs cover this, but there are too many old or dialect songs for each to have a study thread.

Quick Links takes us to Scots and Aussie glossaries and takes care of most needs there. There also is a fair amount on Geordie and Tyneside speech in Mudcat, but not organized yet.

McGrath raises a valid point; words like Dago may not have the same baggage in the UK, Ireland, Australia, Canada or the U. S. A. and other English-speaking centers. Dictionaries can't cover all variations in regional or national speech.

The main problem with a thread of this kind is that many subjects become involved in trying to illustrate a particular meaning (see Barry's comment, above).

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:40 PM

"How about a perma-thread for meanings of odd, unusual or unfamiliar words in songs? It's a deserving subject". -Bunnahabhain

I love that idea! Actually, that was what I was thinking of, only I didn't call it a permathread since I'm not quite sure what the definition of "permathread" is. And since I don't know what a permathread is, I don't know how it differs from archived threads.

So, if such a permathread is started, would this mostly "Hilo" "Say What?" thread be merged in that permathread? And are there other threads that should be part of this proposed permathread?

Also, it seems to me that the title "The Meaning of Words In Songs that are Odd, Unusual, or Unfamiliar [TMWISTAOUU] is kinda long.
And how is TMWISTAOUU pronounced?

Maybe we should have a "Name That Thread" contest.

Whatyathink?

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:48 PM

Correction here-

The Meaning of Words In Songs that are Odd, Unusual, or Unfamiliar =

[TMOWISTAOUOU]

Hmmmm.

I still don't know how to pronounce that title.

Maybe it can be changed to "Odd, Unusual, or Unfamiliar Words In Songs" {OUOUWIS}

Does that work any better?

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:52 PM

Needless to say, since this is Mudcat, we're bound to have some debates about what is meant by "odd, unusual or familiar" 'cause what is odd, unusual or unfamiliar to one person might be standard lingo for another person.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:55 PM

Well I did mean "unfamiliar", but since "familiar" is the other side of "unfamiliar" I meant that too.

[Yeah, right].

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 09 May 06 - 10:35 PM

Okay, how about "Odd & Unusual Words In Songs" [OUWIS]?

Does that title work better than the other one? With OUWIS the "unfamiliar" is understood, or maybe it's not and that's the reason for the thread.

While you ponder that, I'd like to turn your attention to Barry Finn's 09 May 06 - 02:29 AMquestion about the Dou Dou.

Now, be honest. Wasn't 'crap', or "number 2" or "Sugar Honey Ice Tea" the first thing you thought of when you read that Dou Dou phrase?

Some words and names will never make it in Puritan USA because they are too closely tied to body functions that aren't mentioned in polite society.

And I'm just too nice of a lady to say shit-OOPS! I said it! Or rather I wrote it. My bad *.

* contemporary hip-hop lingo for "I'm sorry".

But-just for the sake of discussion, let me remind you of what Barry Finn wrote in his post:

In the Caribbean Dou Dou is a term (not derogatory) term for a island girl or woman it seems to me that the song may have been a coruption of "Dou Dou Let Me Go" instead. Dou Dou is found to be in a few shanties. In Roller Bowler "As I roved out one morning I met a Dou Dou fair". Another West Indian shantey, St. Peter Down In Courland Bay starts off "Darling do do I'm going to St. Peter's Day".

-snip-

Now maybe the phrase Dou Dou isn't even pronounced "doo doo". So I'm gonna try to forget about that bathroom connotation, and say that I've not yet found the referent in any online websites on Caribbean or Rastafarian slang. Which doesn't mean a darn thing {notice I said "darn" and not damn-Opps!}

Anyway, I figure this 'dou dou' phrase may be 'old school' Caribbean patois and not 'new school' like the examples on those Caribbean websites [which can be found by using the key words "Caribbean dictionary" or "Caribbean slang"].

And maybe that olden day word is like the West Indian word "titty" which means Auntie or Old woman or something like that and not what you're thinking about. I believe that I read somewhere that titty {pronounced tee tee?} is from the Spanish word for aunt "tia".

So what does this have to do with the price of red beans & rice in Barbados? Well, I not that sure.

But-work with me here...How bout I found an online reference for a West African name {I believe it is Wolof} for a singer named M'bengue, Dou Dou N'diaye. [the "Ndiaye" name with several variants is rather common in The Gambia and Senegal, as I learned from a couple of people from those countries that I met].

So I'm betting that "Dou Dou" is a nickname for some personal name or the other-what I don't know.

Since sharing is caring, I'm hoping that somebody can shed some light on this dou dou.

{On second thought-Yucky!!}

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 09 May 06 - 11:13 PM

And speaking of "that phrase which shall remain nameless", has anybody else noticed the frequency of what I call [for lack of a better term] "echo" words and phrases and nicknames from Black cultures?

No?

Well, what about these words:

gris gris: {most often used as a referent for a voodoo charm, but I'm sure it's real meaning is heavier than that}

couscous: a spicy dish that originated in North Africa; consists of pasta steamed with a meat and vegetable stew
or a North Africa pasta made of crushed and steamed semolina


su su {Caribbean slang for 'gossip'

And what about these very common contemporary African American {and other ethnic groupS? nicknames:

Day Day: {male for Dashon and a multitude of other male names beginning with the Day sound}

Nay Nay: usually a nickname for the female name Renae {RAH nay]

Shay Shay: for female name that have a shay sound, such as Shayla, and LaShay and many more

Bebe: {pronounced "bee bee" as in Bebe Winan {African American male gospel singer-short for Benjamin -I think- and Bebe Moore Cambell, African American female writer-short for ??} and then there's Robin Harris' comedy routine which was turned into a 1992 movie Bebe's Kids
"Bebe" here is pronounced "baybay".

Mimi: {for all kinds of female names that have a "me" sound like my niece's name Yamisha {yah ME-shah}

Dee Dee: {my twin sister's nickname; it used to be only for "Delores" but it's also used for female names that have a "dee" sound like another niece of mine name "Sadika" {sah DEE kah}

Man Man: {a nickname for a boy [surprise surprise!]. This nickname may be shortened to Man when the boy gets older,though "Man" may be also used as a nickname for young boys.

And there are many more examples where those come from.

I'm guessing that rhythm has alot to do with the reason why these names resonate with people of African descent.

And we're not the only ones who use these echo nicknames.I'm betting that "John John" was used more often in African American communities because it was the nickname President Kennedy gave to his son.

And if you think this discussion has strayed from words that are odd, unusual, and unfamiliar in songs, well, you're absolutely right.

But maybe not.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 09 May 06 - 11:21 PM

Sorry. Here's another correction-though it may not be important, what the heck {notice I said "heck" and not "hell"}.

Renae isn't pronounced RAH nay. It's more like "rah nay"-with the nay somewhat elongated.

That's the best I can do. Some etymologist or whatever folks who study names might take pity on me and explain it better.

And they might not.

But, either way, it's all good.

Or maybe not.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 10 May 06 - 12:21 AM

Getting back to music - don't forget B.B. King. And C.C. Rider.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 May 06 - 12:22 AM

Unless confined to specific words in a particular song lyric, it becomes impossible to reply properly.

The Spanish familiar titi, pronounced títí (tee'tee'), not titty. It is used by children. It is often applied to an older relative, esp. but not necessarily to an aunt (Tía, tee' -a). Sometimes it is applied to an older sister.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 06 - 01:45 AM

"Unless confined to specific words in a particular song lyric, it becomes impossible to reply properly"-Q

Q, I heard you, but sometimes I want to reply improperly.

I'd blame it on the result of my playing in the BS threads. But
I have to admit that irreverancy was part of my nature before I ever heard of Mudcat Discussion Forum.

That said, Q, I do appreciate your information about "tee tee".

****

And thurg, how could I forget BB King and CC Rider. Also, though I mentioned her brother, Bebe Winans, I forgot his sister, Cece Winans.
I believe in that instance, and most instances "CeCe" is short for Cecilia.

I hope thatmy mentioning gospel singer Cece Winans helps to legitimize this post as part of a music thread.

****

But, though it's not music related, let me also note that "Bibi" is a KiSwahili word {title} for lady or madam or grandmother, at least I think that's its meaning.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Grab
Date: 10 May 06 - 07:49 AM

Dunno about the black-specific "echo" words, but some of them originate elsewhere.

"Couscous" is of African origin, but *not* black African. North African people are of a similar skin colour to the Greeks, Turks, and French - swarthy but not black by any means.

"Bebe" is French (for "baby", naturally). It should have acute accents on the "e"s, but I can't be arsed to find how to do it on a UK keyboard. :-)

"Mimi" is a name on its own, of French/Italian origin.

And BB, CC, DD, etc - all originating from names (or nicknames) which did have those two initials. I'll bet there's people out there who's called their kid Owjay or Ohjay since Orenthal James Simpson's abbreviated name became widely used.

I think the rest of your echo words though derive fairly clearly from how adults speak to very young children. "Look at the bow-wow." "Bunny-wunny." "Incy-wincy spider." Etc, etc.

Re "Hilo", it's also the Spanish for "thread" (according to Babelfish). Given the cotton trade, I suspect the town got named after its major product.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:11 AM

Warning: Subject shift!

Well I woke up this mornin with my mind
stayed on Mudcat *

[a parody of the spiritual "Woke up this mornin with my mind stayed on Jesus" which was also used in the mid 1960s as a civil rights song "Woke up this mornin with my mind stayed on freedom]"

So anyway I'm checkin out the Mudcat threads and see this new one:
"Lyr Req: Cushie/Cushy/Coushy Buttercup

And I'm stuck by the words/names "Cushie/Cushy/Coushy".

In that Mudcat thread Joybell [who lives in Australia] writes that "Cushie" is a pet name for cow.

See, in my opinion, this is a prime example of what means one thing in one culture may mean something entirely different in another culture.

"Cush" for me means the ancient North African kingdom of "Cush" {also written as "Kush"}.

In his book "Black In Antiquity; Ethiopians in the Greco-Roman Experience" {Harvard University Press, 1971, p. 112} Frank M. Snowden, Jr writes that "The history of the independent Ethiopian kingdom south of Egypt {Kush is the terminology of many Africanists and Egyptologist} is divided usually into three perioids-the Napatan {751-542 B.C.}, the Meroitic {542 B.C.-339/350 B.C.} and the X-group period {339-350-550 A.D.}"

-snip-

See this excerpt from an online site:

"Nubia (Kingdom of Cush)

People of northern Sudan and southern Egypt. With a history and traditions which can be traced to the dawn of civilisation the Nubians settled along the banks of the Nile from Aswan in the south of Egypt to the 6th cataract just south of Khartoum (capital of Sudan). Along this great river they developed one of the oldest and greatest civilisations in Africa. Until they lost their last kingdom (Christian Nubia) only 5 centuries back the Nubians remained as the main rivals to the other great African civilisation of Egypt. A great civilisation and great people who deserved equal or even more fame than their rival Egyptian civilisation instead were overlooked and its findings and monuments were attributed to their rivals. Belatedly recognised the Nubian culture and history is one of the main concern of archaeologists, scholars, museums and universities world wide nowadays .....

The Kingdom of Cush

Ancient kingdom of Nubia in today's northern Sudan whose rulers conquered southern Egypt in the 8th century BC and established a capital at Napata. From around 730 to 671 BC they ruled over entire Egypt after King Piankhi conquered the rest of Egypt. He had been Cushite ruler since around 751 BC. His son and the second king of the 25th dynasty, Taharka, lost against the Assyrians in 671 but continued to rule until 664 BC. In the 6th century BC the Cushites were forced to move their capital to Meroe where the kingdom flourished until around 350 AD when it was defeated and overrun by the Ethiopians"

http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Nubia.html

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:24 AM

More on "Cush/Kush":

The association of the word "kush" with "African" can be traced to the Christian Bible.

See this excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham,_son_of_Noah

"Ham (חָם, Standard Hebrew Ḥam, Tiberian Hebrew Ḥām, Ḫām, Ge'ez Kam), according to the Genealogies of Genesis, was a son of Noah and the father of Cush, Mizraim, Phut, and Canaan. David Rohl has identified this nation with the Poeni of Punt.

Traditionally, it is held that Ham was one of the sons of Noah who moved southwest into Africa and parts of the near Middle East, and was the forefather of the nations there. The Bible refers to Egypt as "the land of Ham" in (Psalms 78:51; 105:23,27; 106:22; 1Ch 4:40). The Hebrew word for Egypt was Mizraim (probably literally meaning the two lands), and was the name of one of Ham's sons. The Egyptian word for Egypt was Khem, plausibly the origin of the name Ham, or vice versa, according to sound change between languages. The names of Ham's other children correspond to regions within Egyptian influence - Kush, Canaan, and Phut (probably identical with the Pitu, a Libyan tribe, though often confused with Punt, an ancient name for Benadir)"

-snip-

That wikipedia entry goes on to talk about the "curse of Ham".

Also see this excerpt from The Pagan Origin of Easter

"In those ancient times, there was a man named Nimrod, who was the grandson of one of Noah's son named Ham.

Ham had a son named Cush who married a woman named Semiramis.Cush and Semiramis then had a son named him "Nimrod."

After the death of his father, Nimrod married his own mother and became a powerful King.

The Bible tells of of this man, Nimrod, in Genesis 10:8-10 as follows: "And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad,and Calneh, in the land of Shinar."

Nimrod became a god-man to the people and Semiramis, his wife and mother, became the powerful Queen of ancient Babylon..."

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:33 AM

So what does all of this information regarding the ancient African kingdom of Cush have to do with the English {I presume} folk song "Cushie Butterfield"?

Maybe nothing. But I have often wondered what happened to all those enslaved Africans who were brought over to and lived in England prior to the 19th century. It seems reasonably to assume that most if not all of these Black folk became racially mixed folks who became whiter and whiter every generation until they just became White.

Could "Cushie" have originated as a nickname for a English girl who was less than fair skinned? That's my theory and I have absolutely no proof for it except the etymology of the word "Kush".

As to how "cushie" became a pet name for a cow in Australia and maybe elsewhere, I have no idea.

As always, I'm interested in others' input regarding "Cushie/Cushy/Coushy" in the context of that song or otherwise.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:45 AM

Grab,

With regard to your comment about "echo words/names", I want to clarify that I'm not saying that African Americans are the only people who like these names/words. What I am saying is that these types of double names & and double words seem to be quite common in African American {and perhaps other Black} cultures.

It seems to me that there are certain sound perferences that specific groups of people seem to prefer over time & space. And these, in my opinion, we African Americans seem to like or resonate to double or echo words/names.

As to "Bebe", as I'm sure you know the same spelling of a word with the same, similar, or different meaning can be found in different languages throughout the world. I didn't mean to imply that there was only one or two meanings for Bebe or any other word I've cited.

Also as to the skin coloring of Black folks and Greeks and Turks and North Africans who you mentioned in your 10 May 06 - 07:49 AM post,
I believe that what is now is now what was in ancient times. "Black" as a referent for people in Saharan and sub-Saharan Africa did not in the past and and does not now always mean very dark skin.





ones who seem to have some kind of pfe'I'

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Grab
Date: 10 May 06 - 01:40 PM

A more probable alternative origin for "cushie" may be "kushti". It was well-established British Army slang by WW1 (British Army slang borrowed a huge number of words from the various Indian languages), and if English Romanies also used it then there's the link that way too. Or there's a Scots word I found here which is a traditional call to cows. Or maybe even "cushion".

There weren't that many black slaves (or ex-slaves) got back to Britain. The Triangular Trade offloaded them in the plantations and shipped sugar and spices back. And with slaves being taken exclusively from West Africa, I can't honestly see how a North-East African kingdom that ceased to exist in 350AD would have been remembered widely amongst West Africans after shipment to the plantations and then brought back by enough slaves/ex-slaves to Britain as to have entered the English language in common usage. It's fun to think that it could have happened though. :-)

Only so many syllables to go round, I guess. I'm assuming that Ham wasn't named after his favourite food, or vice versa. Never mind Germans wishing each other "gute Fahrt" which gets English kids amused, or the English saying "Missed!" in some game or English weather forecasters predicting mist, which gets German kids amused ("Mist" in German roughly equates to "Poo" in English). Or shitzu dogs. Mind you, I might be prepared to believe it for the dogs...

Graham.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 10 May 06 - 01:57 PM

Don't forget the Mother Goose rhyme which starts something like: Cushie, cow, Cushie, cow,/Let your milk down.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 May 06 - 04:34 PM

Cushie, an easy word, has acquired several meanings, none having anything to do with biblical Cush (Kush).

Cushie- nickname for a cow (perhaps more understandable if it is known that cow is 'coo' in many parts of the UK).

Cushie (cushy)- an easy job. Cushie in the UK and Oz land, cushy in the States. The OED says the Army picked up the word in India, from Hindu 'khush' (see post by Graham). Probably picked up in India long before WW1, I believe, Graham, but I haven't had a chance to check on it. Soldiers, clerks and civil servants were in India for a long period of time, starting in the East India days.

Cushie- a redhead, esp. in Australia. Also heard in Canada. An American woman related to a prominent politician has that nickname- can't remember who, but is white. I'm sure some Mudcat will know.

(I'm sure someone will bring up macushla- )

Cushie- the wood duck, northern England dialect, also applied to a dove (from cushat).

Cush- to bash on the head. Variant of 'cosh.'

Cush, Geographic area-
In the UK, usually refers to the Hindu Kush and the people there, because of campaigns during the Raj.

Biblical Cush- Not certain what is referred to here. Could be Ethiopia, but other scholars place it in Arabia or Babylonia (the 'Kassites, in one spelling). Very dubiously related to the Nubians to the south of Egypt. The Bible is no help. The wackypedia contains much nonsense on such subjects.

Most of the very few blacks in England in the 17th-18th c. were kept for curiosity value by the very wealthy (some were east Indians, also often called blacks); Grab is correct. In the 19th c, a few would be found in seaport towns.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 06 - 05:09 PM

various things:

1. Sorry for the googbly gook at the end of my last post. It means nothing.

2.I understand that massive numbers of enslaved Africans were not settled in Britain. However there were some Africans there brought as slaves or otherwise. Given that there were Black populations in Britain prior to the mid 20th century Caribbean immigration, I believe that it is appropriate to wonder what happened to those people of Black descent.

For those who may be interested, there is some information on the subject of pre-20th century Black Britons on this Mudcat thread:

Black Britons and Folk Music

3.I understand that some West African ethnic groups such as the Yoruba, Wolof, & Akan trace their ancestry to Nilotic people. The Luos {Kenya, East Africa} also are Nilotic people. It might have been possible that the term "Cush" could have survived in their language. Since most of the Africans who were enslaved in Britain and the "New World" were from West Africa, it might also have been possible that they or their ancestors preserved the word "Cush" as athe referent "Cushie".

Of course, this is all very much speculation.

[I think. Therefore I am]

That word Cushie had to come from somewhere. If it didn't come from the Biblical Cush/Kush, at the very least I shared information for those who may not of known it about Cush, the grandson of the Biblical patriarch Ham and the Kingdom of Cush.

Also, Grab, actually, I never heard the "Cushi Cushi Cow" Mother Goose Rhyme. Maybe "cushi" is nothing more than an onomopoetic [sp?] word.

And maybe not.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 06 - 06:28 PM

There will be times when people posting to a thread on the origin and meaning of odd or unusual or unfamiliar words in songs will journey down paths that are the wrong turn, but might still result in interesting scenery [in this case scenery=information].

I admit that I have been wrong about information-a couple times in my life.

;0}

Had I known that there was a word "coo" that is used for calling cows, and if I knew that the word/name "Cushie" was pronounced
"coo-she" then maybe I would not have suggested that that word could have come from "Cush" {particularly since it appears that Cushie's pronunciation is different than the word Cush/Kush.

Since I now know about the word coo for cows, and because I've been informed about the Mother Goose Rhyme "Cushie Cushie Cow" *, I believe that it makes sense that the name "Cushie Butterfield" in that song came from the call for cows.

* btw, did the cutsy "Cushy Cushy Coo" talk adults make in front of babies also come from "cushie cushie cow"?

****

And, one more thing, Q:

You wrote that "Biblical Cush- Not certain what is referred to here. Could be Ethiopia, but other scholars place it in Arabia or Babylonia (the 'Kassites, in one spelling). Very dubiously related to the Nubians to the south of Egypt."

Whether it be on subject or not, I have to respond that just as some future historians could correctly say that the ancient kingdom of the United States was in the Caribbean {since Puerto Rico is located there}, so too can people correctly say that Biblical ancient Ethiopia/Cush/Nubia was located in Arabia or Babylonia. But it's base was in what is now the Sudan {and not modern day Ethiopia which was also a colony of Kush/Ethiopia/Nubia.

And Q, you have the right to your opinion that "the Bible [is] no help". However, on many levels I respectfully but vehemently disagree with that statement.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 06 - 06:40 PM

There were a fair number of black people around in England in the 18th century - slaves or servants or sailors. And then after the American War of Independence they were reinforced by exiled American veterans from the black regiments that fought against the rebellion, as a way of winning freedom from slavery.

The indications are that they mixed in with the general population, rather than maintaining a separate community. The chances are that by now a great many white English people have some black ancestors.

Interesting article here from the BBC Open University site - The First Black Britons.

One paragraph in that article to raise the spirit:

The black and white poor of this period were friends, not rivals. So much so, in fact, that Sir John Fielding, a magistrate, and brother of the novelist Henry Fielding, complained that when black domestic servants ran away and, as they often did, found ' ... the Mob on their side, it makes it not only difficult but dangerous to the Proprietor of these Slaves to recover the Possession of them, when once they are sported away'.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:49 PM

Thanks, McGrath. Obviously a lot I didn't know about Blacks in England. I had read about their use as 'decoration' by the very wealthy, but that's about all.

More on 'Hilo.' - Ilo, Peru, was a nitrate port. Commercial cotton not grown in that area. The same seems true of Hawai'i; just a few small cotton farms, now extinct.

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:34 PM

According to Stan Hugill the significant cargo at Hilo in Hawaii was sugar. Ilo in Chile it was guano (nitrate). Of course both ports would have been pronounced the same way.