BS: I am not an historian but........

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 11:00 AM

Keith, Keith, Keith! I keep trying to get away but you keep doing it! I am only trying to help. Honest. I have pointed out over and over again, and I thought at one time you had agreed, that someone not being able to disprove your theory does not make your theory a fact. No one, well not Steve or I anyway, are saying your points are wrong. We are just saying that there is some uncertainty about them, even if that is only perceived, and because of that we are not convinced. I have said, and I think Steve did as well, that I am not a history buff let alone a(n) historian so I will leave the arduous task of ploughing through the data to the people, like you and Teribus, who enjoy it. However, when you come out with logical fallacies, like if it cannot be disproved it must be right, you do yourself no favours. Teribus, although a bit long winded for my butterfly brain at times (yes it is my fault, not yours, T.), does make sense with his analysis. He is believable and makes good arguments. 'I must be right because no-one can prove me wrong' is not a good argument.

You're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 11:34 AM

Guest, I have indeed been ridiculed by Steve and the others for expressing those views, even though I showed that a number of well known historians, including those on a BBC international list of "leading historians," held those exact same views.

Over the last fourteen months I have added more and more quotes from more historians saying the same.

It became clear to me that none of the currently working historians had different views on those specific issues.

How do those people who deny that know that it is not all?
They do not know of any.
They can't find any.
Yet they know.

Have a go at them for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 11:57 AM

I have a great idea for a compromise, Keith. Let's ask Baldrick! Best of both worlds - he was both there AND he's not dead yet!!



Well it's a damn sight better idea than anything you've come up with...

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 02:16 PM

Keith, I do not think I have ever 'had a go' at you. Apologies if I have given that impression. I have disputed your arguments but it has never been personal. I have given my reasons for doubting your arguments and I cannot comment on the reasons other people do. I will not take sides in an 'I win, you lose' battle when there are too many grey areas that I do not know about. If it makes you feel any better I do not agree with a lot of what Jim says or how he says it but there are some things I do agree with. I do not agree with Musket on some things but he is very astute in his observations. I am sure you understand that the 'multiple Muskets' are not one person but a device brought about to mock those who believe others are posting with multiple identities. Don't take it so hard. It's only politics. Or folk music. (But don't start that argument again)

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 02:37 PM

Apparently the large gentleman with the walking stick who led the 'baying audience' on question time was the brother of UKIP MEP, James Carver. Wonder whether anyone would care to comment on that?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 03:00 PM

Scot Bloke, you mentioned a history book and pointed out that the author lived.

Was that relevant?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 06:00 PM

I'm rather bemused by what the point at issue really is. Clearly most soldiers on both sides believed what they were doing was worth doing, more especially to begin with,and clearly the leaders believed that the choices they were making were the right choices.

And equally clearly the outcome at the time and ever since has been catastrophic. No one can say whether different choices would have been less catastrophic. Speculation about that kind of thing can be entertaining, and it might even be helpful in some ways, but it's not something where meaningful conclusions can be made. Basically it' s a form of fantasy fiction. No different really from arguing about the War of the Rings.

The real lesson to be learnt is perhaps that when you're in a hole stop digging, and don't think that loyalty to those who have gone before means you should carry on the same way they went - and that is a lesson that still has not been learnt, as shown in any number of conflicts in recent years. And in other settings as well.

The last verse of In Flanders fields is the one we should always remember, and always recognise as representing the fatal, and so enticing, chalice:

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Musket
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 06:31 PM

Quite a bit of drift going on. I take it none of the Punch & Judy nonsense includes a definition of "historian" then?

Waiting for our taxi, I recall the concert tonight. Introducing his version of The Maginot Waltz, he said how WW1 has had so much revision over the last few years, the lessons to learn have become blurred as the establishment seeks to restore the reputation of military top brass.

I sat smiling. Perhaps real people read Mudcat too?

Anyway, off to err Wells Cathedral apparently. I think I know where Wells is. I used to see the signs for it when we used to go to Glastonbury. (Any idea what the worm is rattling on about? I somehow doubt he is a Freemason you know. I didn't think they let the lower orders in.)

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 10:56 PM

you've got to admit its odd all the historians have come to the same conclusion all at once. it never occurred to anyone before that he was anything but a completely useless wanker.

i've been reading about this 1988 book by Laffin that comes to somewhat different conclusions. everybody says it was biassed. but how come he came to sensible conclusion whereas Keith would seem to be asking us to accept that these vile acts of murder follow a rationale that was not utterly depraved.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 02:52 AM

You can not deny that those highest profile historians agree with me.

Right or wrong that makes them reasonable views so the ridicule and abuse are misplaced.

You say there must be other historians who disagree, but you can not name one.

That is not a strong case.
That is open to ridicule.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 03:33 AM

See? Even Keith gets bored of perpetuating myth.

He is copying and pasting his own posts now. Must have run out of living, eminent, highest profile, non Labour voting "historians."

By the way, I have decided that henceforth I am a historian.

Live with it, peasant.

🙊🙉🙈

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 04:53 AM

You would rightly ridicule me if I used extremist sites as evidence.
If you quote Counterfire, a revolutionary activist site, expect the same.
Gary Sheffield is a Labour voter and my views are his views.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 04:58 AM

The Independent.

Professor Gary Sheffield of the University of Wolverhampton, who was praised by Mr Gove for his recent study of Field Marshall Sir Douglas Haig, the Commander-in-Chief of the British Expeditionary Force whose Western Front offensives cost nearly one million British lives, said it was not a question of ideology.

"Mr Gove's politics and mine are pretty different but the view he has put forward is right. What he was wrong about however is that there is a left-right split – there isn't," he said.

"The publicity that has been kicking off around the centenary has reflected the Black Adder point of view although he (Mr Gove) is wrong to single it out – it is satire not documentary."

Professor Sheffield said mainstream historians had been revising their opinions of the conflict over the past three decades overturning the "bad war" theory which had taken hold in the 1930s.

"The war was fought for defensive reasons and Europe would have been a very dark place if Germany had not been defeated. Imperial Germany wasn't as bad as Nazi Germany but it was bad enough," he said. "We don't want this year to be a jingoistic carnival of celebration but rather a sober understanding that what Britain was fighting for was important. It was a war against aggression," he added.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cambridge-history-professor-hits-back-at-michael-goves-ignorant-attack-9037502.htm

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 05:12 AM

The BBC put Sheffield and Hastings on their international list of "ten leading historians" of WW1.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26048324

From quote above,"Professor Sheffield said mainstream historians had been revising their opinions of the conflict over the past three decades overturning the "bad war" theory which had taken hold in the 1930s."

You people are clinging to old, discredited myths.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 05:29 AM

Steve, Teribus agrees unequivocally with Keith's views on this issue (IMO), but you have seen fit to abuse and attempt to ridicule Keith at every opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 05:33 AM

Ridicule because he is incapable of supporting his views except by digging up long dead historians.

He should read again how Clark and Tayor were scathingly dismissed in th Guardian this week.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 05:37 AM

that's because we are old enough to have had contact with people for whom the war was a very bad war indeed.

we may be old and discredited, but it seems to me that distance is leading to enchantment.

we lost an entire generation of the young, and the talented because of the old and unimaginative. any alternative to going to war was worth considering, because it was a fucking bad idea. My grandfather was a professional soldier, and he served in both the Boer War and the First World War. He maintained that after the horrendous experiences of the Boer war, they knew damn well exactly what was about to happen.

there are always alternatives to going to war, but they don't have quite the same profit potential for the movers and shakers.

i take my late Grandad's word over some armchair professional twaddler any time - what ever his political beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 05:43 AM

No-one is making you believe the findings of the historians.

Just do not ridicule and insult people who believe historians know more about history, or who learn history from the history books they write.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 06:24 AM

I like the bit about Sheffield which Keith started his quote with. ".. Who was praised by Mr Gove..."

Not much point in carrying on reading it. I'd miss out on arse scratching time. It was on the Internet, it must be true.

Tell me Keith. When you watch a shampoo advert, do you sit making notes when the hired bimbo says "here comes the science!"

😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 06:40 AM

It was in the Independent with real quotes from real historians.

You refused to read it!

Like any superstitious fundamentalist you close your eyes, ears and mind to any and all evidence that challenges your beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 07:51 AM

"No-one is making you believe the findings of the historians"
Very true - you've managed to go through life without doing so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 09:02 AM

John Laffin was a professional journalist and a teacher of English and history in secondary schools.

More:

http://www.johndclare.net/wwi3_laffin_polemic.htm

The easily accessible review by "top cat1980" at Amazon.com is also informative:

http://www.amazon.com/British-Butchers-Bunglers-World-War/product-reviews/B000TYWJ60/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOne

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 09:06 AM

I have read it. I was referring to your withering post.

Pillock.

😴

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 05:08 AM


I like the bit about Sheffield which Keith started his quote with. ".. Who was praised by Mr Gove..."
Not much point in carrying on reading it.

Like the most superstitious of religious fundamentalist, you close your eyes, ears and mind to any and all evidence that challenges your beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Musket
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 06:16 AM

Tsk. Shouldn't you be out praying with the other 0.001% of Hertford?

Say one for the war dead whilst you are there. Make up for the shameful slur you keep piling on them.


💀💀💀💀💀

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 06:24 AM

No slur ever from me.
It is you who claim they were too simple to understand anything.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Musket
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 06:46 AM

Really? If they were well led, the massive number of casulties was planned. Heavy losses were a tactic. Or the men weren't capable of doing what was asked of them.

Either way fits "well led" and either is an insult to their slaughter.

Did you say that prayer? What did the little baby Jesus have to say on the matter?

🙈🙉🙊

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 06:57 AM

Strangely enough I remember an interview with the late Ewan MacColl where he spoke of his dislike of Oh What a Lovely War for exactly the opposite reasons, Keith.

He said something like, I knew Theatre Workshop was going along the lines with that show. We Had old Generals coming out, saying What a damn fine show! All those wonderful songs.....

in other words really to that generation, who were even closer than we were - it was rather too light on the horror of the war, and moral turpitude of the Generals.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 07:04 AM

Did you read that piece about how veterans responded to the show?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 07:06 AM

Musket, the surivors themselves felt that the leadership was good.
They actually revered Haig.
Too simple to understand I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Musket
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 09:26 AM

Are you sure about that?

Really?

Does it include George Cooper? Do you think he revered Haig?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 10:03 AM

Can you link us to any of your claims Keith?
No?
I thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 12:13 PM

'Too simple to understand I suppose'

they would have been simple indeed....none of mine or my wife's relatives were that daft.

i really do think you are being seriously misled Keith. these people need controversy, more than they need truth.

i wish i could express the anguish and resentment that was just common conversation when iwas a kid.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 01:13 PM

For Jim, an Irish Times link.





First published:Wed, Oct 22, 2014, 00:00












Few historical figures were so revered in life yet vilified after their death than Douglas Haig, the commander-in-chief of the British Army during the first World War.

When Haig died in 1928, a day of national mourning was declared in Britain. "Not within living memory had the nation accorded to any of its sons such a demonstration of loyalty, fidelity and affection," wrote one commentator at the time.

Haig ended the first World War as a hero. Despite the appalling slaughter of 1.1 million British and Commonwealth military dead, the British public believed the first World War was a just war and Britain had triumphed.

However, the reverence accorded to him in death did not survive the demolition of his reputation by the former British Prime Minister David Lloyd-George in the 1930s.

The relationship between Lloyd-George and Haig was one of the great psychodramas of the first World War. The brilliant, self-made and loquacious Welshman and the stolid Scot, who was born into a life of privilege, detested each other. Haig had a disdain for politicians and resented their interference. The disdain was reciprocated with interest.
http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/irish-doctor-defends-haig-1.1950996

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 01:24 PM

In 1928 came the death of Sir Douglas Haig, the Commander of the BEF. Reviled by his critics, the taciturn Scot was, as Todman reminds us, revered by the vast majority of his men, though possibly more for his tireless work in setting up the British Legion than for his military competence. (The vast turnout for his funeral was probably the largest public demonstration in Britain between the wars).
http://www.historytoday.com/nigel-jones/first-world-war

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 01:33 PM

He was a hugely popular public figure in the post WW1 years and revered by those who served under him. His death in 1928 was a major occasion for mourning. Only later was he heavily criticized for the slaughter of the trenches.

http://www.shimply.com/p/douglas-haig-the-preparatory-prologue-1861-1914-diaries-and-letters-by-douglas-scott-9781844154043-p147

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 01:46 PM

But Canberra-based military historian Peter Stanley of the University of NSW was scathing at the idea of the name change.

Professor Stanley conceded that Haig's reputation has been patchy over the decades, but to change the name of the park would be ''grotesque revisionism''.

''The park was named after Douglas Haig because at the time he was regarded – justifiably – as the general who had led the British empire's armies to victory on the Western Front,'' Professor Stanley said.

''Haig's reputation has been both attacked and defended. The thrust of current military historical thinking is that he did as good a job as could have been done.

''To rename the park would be grotesque and unjustifiable revisionism.''
http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/push-to-remove-douglas-haigs-name-from-park-20140810-102j2t.html

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 02:14 PM

Until his death in London in 1928, aged 66, DH continued to serve on various Great War ex-servicemen's welfare committees and charities such as The Haig Fund and The Haig Homes. His relatives certainly believed that the strain so incurred was instrumental in his relatively early death.

At DH's state funeral more than 30,000 military veterans followed the cortege to his final resting place at Dryberg Abbey near Alnwick, Northumberland, England. It was said to be the largest assemblage of British subjects at such a public event up to that date. That so many of his former soldiers made the effort to travel to this isolated place is quite extraordinary. One can only wonder how many would have turned out if the ceremony had taken place in one of the more densely populated area of the country.
http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-on-land/71-gen-ls/227-haig-command-great-war.html

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 04:33 PM

Talking to yourself again, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 05:08 PM

Don't think so Greg, it's just that they have run out of ideas.

I'm afraid they will just have to accept the general concensus on the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 05:08 PM

no explaining to me his beliefs. i can think of no way to convince you, Keith. but just think of the hoo hah at Churchill's funeral.

do you find it hard to believe that churchill was utterly detested by many many serving men - i can assure you, he was.

i knew a guy who worked on a anti aircraft gun. he used to tell me the war years were the best years of his life. he thought the sun shone out of WC's arse. his wife did, and his kids did.

the people who actually did the killing and dying were probably a bit more measured in their praise. my dad hated the fucker. i don't think he was on his own - hated the grandiosity, the talk of acceptable casualties, the mad ventures like Dieppe, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 05:20 PM

Churchills's funeral did not come close.
Not even Diana's.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 06:24 PM

Dream team of Keith A and ake strike again.

What is it about judging some one by the company they keep?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 06:29 PM

I certainly judge you by the company you keep.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 06:33 PM

I am astounded by your wit ake. How do you do it?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 08:37 PM

sorry.....in what way didn't they come close. i sat in church the week of his funeral - the sermon was on how we needed another Churchill.....it was national phenomenon.

don't you remember?

Princess Di.....did they mass at every train station carrying the body, like they did for Di at every motorway bridge.

I think you are ......deluded.

There aren't really a lot of statues to the bloke.....doesn't that say something to you?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Musket
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 03:33 AM

Wonders never cease. Akenaton was actually correct when he spoke of the consensus.

Unfortunately, he mean't Keith, Terribulus, Michael Gove, out of context quotes from a select few historians and that bloke in Doncaster market who shouts at lampposts.

The consensus is as it always was. Poor leadership leading to unnecessary deaths of men caught up in the jingoism and propaganda of the day.

You know, just like "the historians" actually conclude.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 04:06 AM

"No-one is making you believe the findings of the historians."
One of your historians has just pointed out that nobody has a clue how good a general haig was - care to comment on that?
Any chance of your substantiating your lies about historians backing up your argument - a few simple links should do it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 04:42 AM

On a bitter February day, a million people lined the route in London.
Hundreds of thousands qued in the driving sleet for hours to pass his body.
"At DH's state funeral more than 30,000 military veterans followed the cortege to his final resting place at Dryberg Abbey near Alnwick, Northumberland, England. It was said to be the largest assemblage of British subjects at such a public event up to that date. That so many of his former soldiers made the effort to travel to this isolated place is quite extraordinary. One can only wonder how many would have turned out if the ceremony had taken place in one of the more densely populated area of the country."

This is all hard evidence that the man was overwhelmingly loved not hated.
You can see it all on Pathe News.
Why do you feel driven to close your eyes, ears and minds to all this?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 04:43 AM

Hundreds of thousands queued in the driving sleet for hours to pass his body in Edinburgh.
Sorry.