BS: Friar Tuck

Subject: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 08:36 AM

I've just read in my local paper that the BBC are to make a new Robin Hood series but the factual character Friar Tuck will not be in it, the BBC says thay have left him out in case he is ' ridiculed '

This would be akin to re-making Sherlock Holmes without Mrs Hudson.

Trouble is you can never find out which petty beaurocrat makes these, frankly fucking stupid decisions.

I won't watch it.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 08:37 AM

Why would he be ridiculed? If you ridiculed the REAL Friar Tuck he'd have whacked you on the head with his quarterstaff.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 08:39 AM

I got lost in the woods, but saw an old monastery up ahead. i knocked on the door, and a tonsured chap holding a fresh try of hots chips answered the door.

"Are you the Head Friar?" I asked.

"No, I'm the Chip Monk" he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 08:51 AM

Perhaps they were worried about offending relatives of Dr Spooner?

:D (tG)

Which was the film with the realy good Tuck in it? He invited some of the merry men into a cave or cellar or somesuch for a drinking contest? I think it was around the same time as they Costener Prince of thieves one. Tonight we will dine with my Father in Nottigham. (Not from Dover you won't, mate...)

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 09:46 AM

What's factual about Friar Tuck, or any of the other characters in Robin Hood? And shouldn't a storyline glorifying guerilla terrorism be suppressed? And if they weren't from Nottingham Forest - bad enough, even before Cloughie- they were from YORKSHIRE and so totally beyond the pail.

Or perhaps it's the fear that a guy in long robes that fat might be mistaken by the police for a suicide bomber, and filming would come to a sudden and gory end.

And why did they call that guy Little John, when he was 7 feet tall? Did Maid Marian nickname him?

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:18 PM

The good sir Robin

Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Joybell
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:19 PM

Well we have a wonderful Friar Tuck in our up-and-coming production of "Robin Hood - The Myth". It's a musical. What's more we go right into the nature of Reality. Exploring the Robin Hood Folktales is where we're at.
Everyone's invited. 29th of April in Western Victoria, Australia. Limited seating. Book now.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:43 PM

"why did they call that guy Little John, when he was 7 feet tall?"

Originally his name was 'John Little' - thus the (English)* joke.




* As opposed to 'Der German Joke'....

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 08:07 PM

I wonder what order the good Friar Tuck belonged to? Ciscertians? Templars? he was a warrior monk who was skilled at arms. I remember hearing his order mentioned on a film once but cannot recall it. Anyone know?

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:52 AM

I take it you're from Nottingham Paul.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:56 AM

Robin was a Northumbrian lad. Allen a Dale was clearly from Allendale.
The rigorously researched "Robin Hood:Prince of Thieves" shows Robin to have lived near Hadrian's wall.
"Nottingham" is a misreading of Eltringham,Ovingham or Bellingham.
"Sherwood" is a corrubtion of "Shearer's Wood" (Shearer being one of the most revered Northumbrian Deities).
Oh yes & "Norman" should read "Mackem"

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:42 AM

He was from West Ham.
Thus the rhyming slang as in, fancy a Friar Tuck darlin'?

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 03:02 AM

Nottingham? If you take that, you'll take anything.

The dating of Friar Tuck is important- the friars were originally mendicant preaching orders- they lived by begging as they travelled round, expounding religion in places where the official religious provision was often very scanty. Originally somewhat informal, they later became regularised as the Franciscans, Dominicans, Auguistinians, carmelites etc. But if the traditional cast includes King Richard I and King John, that's a little early to have generated an outlaw from these formalised orders.

Over on the Continent, there were lay groups who dedicated themselves to semi- monastic lives, often living together in town houses that operated as religious commmunes, known as the Beguines or Beghards. Being out of the control of the abbots and bishops, they were often under the suspicion of heresy, indeed they were later suppressed by the Inquisitions (usually operated by Dominicans and Franciscans).

Also Tuck sounds more like a surname (they were just beginning to gel in England then) than a personal name, whereas a vocational cleric would be Brother Something-Like-Joseph, a religious name.

So my bet would be for Friar Tuck to be an educated and religious layman, perhaps fired with a sense of religious fervour and hatred of corruption and injustice, and in danger of arrest for heresy.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 03:32 AM

I still don't get your point Paul, it's the BBC not me, and the anti
' Yorkshire Robin Hood ' brigade are ususally from Nottingham, the forest in question being Barndale or Barnsdale, firmly in Yorkshire, and it is simply a matter of fact the Robin Hood is buried at Kirklees Priory in between Brighouse and Mirfield in West Yorkshire.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 09:24 AM

Musings....

What order Tuck might have belonged to depends upon the span of years involved.

Benedict of Nursia (ca. 480-548) founded what we think of as monasticism in the Catholic tradition. Francis Bernadone founded what became the Franciscans in the winter of 1206/07; the Order of Friars Minor were giving papal approval by Innocent III and the Rule of the order was confirmed by Honorius III in 1223.

Since "King John" is probably John Lackland (ruled 1199 to 1216) it is faintly possible that Tuck was a Franciscan. Far more likely that he was a Benedictine, which order came to England with Augustine of Canterbury in 597. However, the monasteries did their best (and it was quite good!) to control the lives of the inmates -- it is unlikely that Tuck was a Benedictine simply because of the control exercised by the Abbot. The Cistercians were similar to the Benedictines in this regard (and still are).

This leaves the the "mendicant friars," of which four orders -- Franciscans, Dominicans, Augustinians, and Carmelites -- were recognized by the Second Council of Lyons in 1274.

By 1398, the approximate date of the Canterbury Tales, friars -- especially the mendicant friars -- had a reputation for various forms of sin and worldliness.

Given all this, yes, Friar Tuck was probably a layman and not an ordained priest. I suspect that the term "Friar" may also have been a nickname (like "Little" John) attached to the man for some reason, perhaps because of his physical girth.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: open mike
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 10:43 AM

i thought you said
Order of Friars Minor were giving pay pal approval by Innocent III

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:04 AM

Innocent III?
I didn't see the first two films......
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Grab
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 05:46 PM

As I remember from the stories, Tuck was lapsed, wasn't he?

Anyway, you didn't have to be a "warrior monk" to know quarterstaff or cudgel back then. It'd be before it was formalised into a martial art (Britain had plenty of indigenous martial arts, all of which except boxing and wrestling have sadly died out), but most reasonably tough kids would doubtless have worked it out themselves. All you'd need is to have been a bouncer before you became a monk.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 05:50 PM

At a certain period of history, boy! could those monks lay, man!

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 06:29 PM

Ordained clergy were forbidden the "shedding of blood." So they used maces and other crushing weapons instead of swords (except for the martial orders, of course). Boy, I bet that made a lot of difference to those they whacked!

Staffs were the poor man's weapon, and quite good they were and are, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 07:11 PM

Neither a regular Google Web search nor a Google News search found anything on this subject (other than this thread). Can someone provide a link to an actual story or are we to assume this is a rumour*?


* Please make note of how I have deferred to our UK cousins by misspelling "rumor" as they are wont to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: GUEST,Not Numb
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 09:10 PM

I'm amazed the BBC is making such a series at all in these days of The War On Terrorism. Let's face it, the merry men were really no more than a bunch of terrorists. And by including a "man of God" within their ranks, would parallels not be drawn with some of today's extremist groups?

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 09:16 PM

Pedant Warning. Pedant Warning.

I always thought the plural of staff was "staves" rather than "staffs"?

Or maybe I'm wrong....

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 09:21 PM

And as for the dating of Friars (see Paul Burke's post) - you young maids beware; it is not recommended (Foolstroupe's scandalous post notwithstanding).

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 09:45 PM

'I always thought the plural of staff was "staves" rather than "staffs"?'

The inflected form: either.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:21 PM

Barrel staves, quarterstaffs.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: number 6
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:24 PM

... sticks, poles, fancy ones are wands.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:29 PM

May the force be with you . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 03:07 AM

Guest not numb, where are you from ? everyone in England [ except perhaps Nottingham ] knows that Robin Hood and that other great Yorkshireman Guy Fawkes were true patriots.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 03:43 AM

Unfortunately their like is not to be found these days - You just can't get the staff.......
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: melodeonboy
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 05:38 AM

Now the Friar's name was Tuck
And he didn't give a damn
He'd never ever help them in a fight

He wouldn't help them hunt
That lazy rotten friar
He just sat round and fed himself all night

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 08:38 AM

Oh, I was wrong! Sorry!
Mr Webster says either is correct usage in this sense.
Should have checked before posting.

(Exits, self-flagellating with a stick of organically grown celery!)

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 09:46 AM

Quote:
... would parallels not be drawn with some of today's extremist groups?


I assume that Muslim Nazir the Moor, one of the Merry Men in the old TV series, will be written out too?
Or perhaps portrayed as a member of a sleeper cell infiltrating the gang of disaffected young radicals with a view to disrupting the status quo on behalf of a terrorist organisation with links to certain overseas governments, etc etc.

(Hey Aunty, do you need a script-writer? No, on second thoughts, you couldn't afford me!)

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 04:47 AM

Since he wasn't in the stories, he may well not be in the remakes.

On this subject, does anyone else have fond memories of the 1980s ITV version? Jason Connery (son of Sean) was one of the Robins (for people who didn't see it, there was a mystical reincarnation bit between two series). I was tempted to get them on DVD and see whether they stand up to watching when you're older than 10, but the boxed set costs a fortune (£40!) so sod that. My memory though is that it was a fairly gritty kind of thing, with the outlaws actually acting like outlaws instead of a bunch of perfect genteel knights.

Sadly it's never been repeated, which is a shame. I think it would still work today, bcos it didn't rely on digital special effects or dodgy painted scenery, so that wouldn't have dated.

And the less said about the recent American effort (a Xena/Hercules wannabe), the better...

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Snuffy
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:54 AM

What was the early 90s(?) one with Tony Robinson where Robin was a right wimp and Maid Marion ran the whole show?

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:12 AM

Maid Marion and her Merry Men, Snuffy.
Tony Robinson was also the writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 09:02 AM

I've always prefered "Robin Hood: Men In Tights" with Friar Tuck played as a rabbi and mohel.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 10:22 AM

I once did a poem in a folk club based on Sponnerisms

after a pre-amble explaining that Friar Tuck was a spoonerism and pausing just long enough to say

"I see you are all ahead of me ----- yes - as you spotted it is Fire Truck"

as I was into the next spoonerism a chuckle came too early, and a man explained he was still explaining the Friar Tuck joke to his wife - that got a better laugh.

Long may he continue to amuse us.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:00 AM

The Michael Praed / Jason Connery version of the Robin Hood (Theme tune by Clannad), was repeated in bits on one of the Digital Channels a couple of months back.
I was intrigued by the two different Robins - one dark haired and the other blond. I looked it up on the wibbly wobbly web and discovered that he second Robin was actually a different person - different name but took up the mantle of the Hooded Man. Can't rcall where i looked on the web, but one was a Robin and the other a Robert (or similar) but both were names associated with different versions of the Robin Hood legends and stories.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:25 AM

From the Internet Movie Database.         

"Robin of Sherwood" (1984) [TV-Series 1984-1986]

Michael Praed         ....         Robin of Loxley (1984-1985)
Jason Connery        ....         Robert of Huntingdon (1986)

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: LadyJean
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:09 AM

There are three medieval English plays about Robin Hood still extant. Robin Hood and the Monk is the only one that is still complete.
The monk in question calls himself Friar Tuck, so he's been around a long time.
Robin, a tough guy, decides to take on Friar Tuck because he's heard Tuck is another tough guy.
Little John advises against it, as he's tussled with the monk, and it was a painful experience.
Enter Friar Tuck sayind Deus Hic, (Which we interpreted as a belch.) and discussing his prowess as a fighter. Robin asks him to carry him across a stream. Tuck drops him in the water. They fight, and Robin wins, then introduces Tuck to "a lady free, and I her chaplain do thee make to serve her for my lady's sake".
Tuck then recites a ribald little rhyme suggesting the lady isn't chaste. And they dance.
I put together a production of the 3 Robin Hood plays for the SCA some years ago. Our Friar Tuck was a nice Jewish boy, with a nice bald spot where his tonsure should be.
Tuck is called the Friar of Fountains Abbey, which was a Cistercian house. But Cistercians were cloistered.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:19 AM

Friar Tuck is to Robin what a "fryer" is to a chicken. And a robin is to a chicken what a fryer is to cholesterol! ... We didn't have cholesterol when I was a kid, but if we had had it, we would've fried it.

Oh, never mind!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Grab
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:45 AM

The Michael Praed/Jason Connery thing involved a reincarnation bit. The TV show had him being the local representative of Herne the Hunter. End of one series, Robin gets killed (as the only way to get the others out of the way of the Sheriff's men, IIRC), but Herne the Hunter brings him back - can't remember if it was a different body or different person with the same "spirit". Which gave a nice intro for the next series, since he had to get the band back together and prove who he was. It was heavy on the semi-Celtic mysticism like that.

I really shouldn't be able to remember stuff like this... ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:53 AM

Don't forget that there's that song about Maid Marian too:

If I were the Marian kind
Which thank the lord I'm not, sir,
The kind of man that I would marry
Would be a Friar Tuck,sir.

He'd Friar Tuck, I'd Friar Tuck,
We'd both Friar Tuck together,
We'd be alright in the middle of the night,
Frying a tuck together.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: melodeonboy
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:52 PM

Robin Hood, Robin Hood, riding through the glen,
Robin Hood, Robin Hood, with his band of men,
Feared by the bad,loved by the good,
Robin Hood,.........

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:39 AM

Re. Muslim Nazir the Moor
Quote: Since he wasn't in the stories, he may well not be in the remakes.

Quite right. That was ITV.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 07:46 AM

The Clannad bits of the Praed/Connery series may still be available on the CD "Legend" RCA Label, ND71703

The series itself struck me as enjoyable hokum, and quite well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:09 AM

Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore..........Dennis Moore.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 02:12 PM

Just chanced in passing on these two sites, both give Robin Hood a much later date than the telly and films do, placing him in the reign of Edward II.

http://friar-tuck.biography.ms/

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lane/8771/marian.html

Don't know if the references are good ones, but they do back up the Yorkshire connection.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Friar Tuck
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:49 PM

O' course when Robin was dying at (aah cannit remember the name of the) Abbey (burrit wez the Abbess wot bled him too much)

He asked Little John te pass him his bow and an arrer and he says tiv him

"Wherever this arrow may land - There bury me"

In his weakened state he cuddent draw the bow very much and the arrer didn't gan very far.

But true tiv his Master's last request Little John buried him half-way up the wardrobe.

It's history man!!