Music Theory: Modes confusing notation

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 04:30 AM

NIck, I don't understand that. Have you not actually used ABC?

I don't see how anyone could ask that after trying it for ten minufes.

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Nick Dow
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 06:56 AM

Jack, this whole thread is about asking questions. The only stupid question is the one left unasked. I am glad to say that the contributors have been very helpful and do not suffer from your intellectual arrogance. I see no value in engaging with you forthwith.

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 06:59 AM

I have tried ABC, Unless i have a computer i think it is inadequate, therfore imo sheet music is superior, because it does nor require electronic help

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 07:25 AM

I'm surprised at how angry this conversation has gotten, but it seems to me that most of the participants are right at least partly, in saying that particular notation systems have strengths or weaknesses.

Tablature, for instance, can be very useful in figuring out how to play a song, but it only works for one instrument, in one key; it can't be transposed -- and rarely gives you much information about the mode, or even the key signature, of the song.

ABC gives you much more of that information, but it doesn't have much "feel" -- you can't look at it and quickly say the range of the song, or the direction of each particular strain.

Standard staff notation does give those visual clues, which are really useful, but it doesn't make the modal characteristics of a song obvious, and it doesn't give much clue how to play a song on a particular instrument (unless you add chord symbols or something).

A form like shape note notation gives useful information for sight singers regarding where you are on the scale, but other than that, it has most of the constraints of staff notation. And many notation programs don't handle it well

None of these advantages is overwhelming; none of these defects is completely disqualifying. Each should be allowed its place, and each should be allowed our preferences! I know what I prefer (staff notation, with mode and range information a la Bronson, and chord suggestions so that I can see if someone else has had better ideas than I have), but is it really worth this sort of acrimony?

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Nick Dow
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 09:07 AM

Yes, I can go along with that, Bob and Dick. So, really, we are only able to give mode information, to avoid flooding the notation with accidentals and confusing the matter. My problem with root notes can be partially solved by trying the melody using the last note as the tonic and hoping for a musical result.
I also found Bob's insight into the tritone in relation to Folk song an eye-opener. I must follow that up.
In respect of the acrimony, I am ignoring it from now on.

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 09:34 AM

Bob its not angry, it may appear angry dependent on the mood of the reader, that is because there is no body language with e mails, EMAILS are a method of communication whiuch although instant has inadequacies

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Nick Dow
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 10:22 AM

It's easy to over-react I suppose.

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 11:30 AM

Nick, I was genuinely asking how you came to have that question - because if you had used ABC for real (as I thought you must have done), that question about how it relates to guitar tab shouldn't have come up.

And I certainly wasn't calling you an attention seeker. The poster who started this thread is, and is going through a routine they've been using for over 20 years.

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 04:43 PM

Nick Dpw, started this thread, he is a fine singer and musician.
Jack, you previously insulted Burl aka Roy Harris, and now youre insulting Nick Dow

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Nick Dow
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 08:17 PM

Please may I return to the triad? Bob mentioned 'Thyme, it is a precious thing'. Is the triad in the second cadence? I can not hear it elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Nick Dow
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 08:22 PM

Grovelling apologies! I meant the tritone, of course. It's late, and I've had a tough day. I'll try again tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 09:03 PM

Nick Dow wrote, Bob mentioned 'Thyme, it is a precious thing'.

You may not know this version of "Thyme." There are several tunes for that song family. It's the version I learned from Michael Cooney... 45 years ago or so? I don't know where he got it; I don't have the record at hand (I think it's in my parents' collection). I can't find a recording on YouTube; apparently it can be had on Spotify, but I don't use Spotify.

The chorus is as follows; I've marked the tritone in all caps. As you suggested, it's in the second line, on the word ALL.

Thyme, it is a precious thing.
Thyme brings ALL things to your mind.
Thyme, with all its labours,
along with all its joys,
And it's thyme brings all things to an end.

First verse (to the same tune) is

Once I had a spring of thyme,
I thought it NEVer would decay
Until a saucy sailor
chanced upon my way
And he stole away my bonnie bunch of thyme.

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Nick Dow
Date: 09 Jul 26 - 02:12 AM

Thanks, Bob. Yes, the second cadence, as I thought. It immediately made me think how phrases in alternative modes find their way into our folk melodies. 'Long Pegging Awl' has a cadence clearly in the Lydian Mode in its opening phrase and continues in the Dorian (I think!). The more I read this thread and other opinions, the less cut-and-dried any form of musical labelling becomes. I can see that the argument advanced to me for less being more works in this instance. I think including the prompt 'Dorian with Lydian inflexions' or even D/L per Bronson does not really make life easier. Nevertheless, the discussion has been a joy!

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 09 Jul 26 - 02:57 AM

I was once told that Soft Machine had to invent some notation of their own to write down some of their compositions. I wish I had asked more about it. Anyone know any more?
Robin

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Nick Dow
Date: 09 Jul 26 - 05:42 AM

I was never into them Sorry.

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 26 - 07:34 AM

I am not familiar with the music of soft machine, my favourite singer is Lizzie Higgins

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 26 - 03:20 PM

A very common mistake that some people make a ndsmoe of those on session.org, is to assume that because some tune has one sharp it is g major,
the same applies to tunes with two sharps, they are not always in d major, two sharps can be A mixolydian, the A major scale with a flattened 7 in the scale

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: Nick Dow
Date: 09 Jul 26 - 05:24 PM

That was my original point Dick. You have to find the tonic. This thread has helped though.

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 09 Jul 26 - 11:56 PM

IF it sounds good .... JUST DO IT !

ENJOY ... HAVE   FUN!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

If it sounds awful ... disharmonious, carry on and call it "ART."

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 26 - 12:58 AM

Nick, the thread has been a tonic

Subject: RE: Music Theory: Modes confusing notation
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Jul 26 - 09:51 AM

So it's not just me that was reminded of Soft Machine by this thread: I've had the starting theme for the Pig sequence* as an earworm for the last two days now. Their music is admitted to be an acquired taste.

* On the second side of Soft Machine II, and used in their late-night Prom recorded by the BBC.