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Folklore: Slang words
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Subject: Folklore: Slang words From: Sorcha Date: 12 Jul 05 - 03:14 PM I love 'new' slang words. Newest to me is 'hooptie' or 'hoop' meaning beat up old car. It's inner city (at least Wash DC and environs) black, drug culture ghetto slang. Came froma rap song, but why 'hooptie'? Where did it come from? Sistah Azzizi, you might know this....or some of the DC/Silver Spring folks. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Bill D Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:57 PM I do NOT love new slang words.....I come very close to despising new slang that is created just in order to be different and stay ahead of everyone else....much of it, as 'hooptie', bears little direct resemblance to what it purports to describe. It is a divisive, confusing, awkward way to advance communication. Some slang used to be clever, useful and relevant, even if you didn't use it yourself....but much of today's is just random babble. what, me? opinionated and outdated? naaawwwww....... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:23 PM Cripes Sorcha - don mean ta be flamboasting - but if that gets you off you will have a GREAT Time at:
http://www.rapdict.org/
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:29 PM As another Mudcatter has put it, new ephemeral words are argot, not slang. The word must go into common usage to be slang- or at least reach puberty. Hoop-de-dooden-do! (A 19th c. phrase no longer used). |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Azizi Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:54 PM So some folks don't like certain group's slang? Well, to each his [or her] own...Different strokes for different folks..What's good for the goose may not be good for the gander. And all that Jazz.. It aint no biggy if someone doesn't like another persons's creative expressions, or doesn't at all see it at creative..or doesn't "get it" or attributes purposes to it that may not even be near to what it's all about for all who are 'down with it' any or all the time. But since mainstream Western culture [USA and otherwise] has so often looked to Black folks to add new life to its language, then if people want to be hip to the jive, they have to at least try to be up on [down with] Hip-Hop languaging. 'Cause-as much as Hip-Hop has sold its soul to the capitolist system and has crowned bling bling as its god, it is still where much of this nation's creative energy is. As to 'hoopty' to discribe an old, beat up car that is usually large and held together with duct tape and a prayer...that word is actually at least 15 years old. I believe that the word comes from Hip-Hop culture and is routinely used in Hip-Hop jams such as 50 Cent's hit rap "21 Questions" as here "If I went back to a hoopty from a Benz, would you poof and disappear like some of my friends?" Where did the word "Hoopty" come from? My theory is that it came from a previous colloquial term for motor vehicles: "wheels". At all wheels are round and a hoop is also round. So... But that's just a guess. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Azizi Date: 12 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM Sorry-here I go again... I don't have a clue why that 'at' is in the sentence that is supposed to read: "Wheels are round and hoops are round" **** I just asked by 32 year old daughter does she how old does she think the word 'hoopty' is...She said she remembers it from when she was in high school and mentioned a song by Sir Mix-a-lot that talked about a tail pipe dragging on his hoopty. According to an interesting [to me] website called 'Slang City', "bucket" is another word for slang. When I mentioned this to my daughter she said, and I quote "Oh, Mom, that is so old..that's even older than 'hoopty'. Where've you been?" I just shrugged my shoulders and kept on typin... See this quote from Slang City "Hoopty (sometimes hooptie) is a another word for bucket often heard in rap music, such as 50 Cent's 21 Questions. Older synonyms include the vintage tin lizzie (1910s) and struggle-buggy (1920s), as well as my personal favorite from later in the twentieth century, crapmobile".... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Sorcha Date: 12 Jul 05 - 09:26 PM Thank you Zi, and, Now, Bill, mah main man, ya gotta get up on this here stuff. Get yer hooptie detailed and git on down an cruise the main line a bit....be good for ya, aiiright? Grin....Sorry, sistah Zi..... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Kaleea Date: 12 Jul 05 - 09:42 PM My father tells me that "whoopie" was used by the old timers for automobiles, & before that, a buggy drawn by horse(s). Daddy says that one had to "whoop the horses to get 'em goin'." [I my day, a "whoopin'" was a hard spanking.] His Daddy & his "Granpap" came from around the border of Texas & Oklahoma, and I have heard a great deal of oldtimey talkin'. I heard his father as well as my Irish Grandad use the term "whoopie" meaning a vehicle. My Irish Grandad never drove any whoopie except for one drawn by a horse or mule. Notice the term "Granpap" short for "Grandpappy?" The old timers--especially the Irish but others too, according to my Daddy, used the terms "Pappy" and "Mammy" for their parents, thus Grandpappy & Grandmammy. As in "Mammy Yokem" & "Pappy Yokem" of the Lil Abner comic strip. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Teresa Date: 12 Jul 05 - 10:01 PM I think that a lot of the evolution of language comes from experimentation and slang. Someone had to invent every single usage in the language at one point and another, and in my opinion, the more it changes, the more alive it is. Having said that, I don't know a lot of the modern slang anymore, but that's just because I don't move in the same circles as urban and younger folk. For awhile, I was going to poetry readings that attracted a lot of slammers, and I also went to protests that featured underground hip-hop groups. But since I've moved to the suburbs and far away, I don't encounter it much anymore. Now it's "do lunch" and "power walks". :-P Teresa |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Jul 05 - 10:05 PM A whoop is a short distance. A whoop and a holler is a little farther. Two whoops and a holler is farther yet. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Azizi Date: 12 Jul 05 - 11:44 PM Could "hoopty" be the folk process at work? hoopty from -whoop or whoopie? Is it possible that people let out a whoop {a yell?; a laugh?} when they saw someone's broke down, beat up car. And this happened so much that they started calling the cars a "whoop+tee" {the 'tee' added to make it sound better}. And eventually {since we Americans just feel we need to simplify things}, the 'w' was dropped, and there ya go-we ended up with the word "hoopty"... On the other hand, maybe "hoop" was created to rhyme with 'coup' {you know, like the car} and then the 'tee' was added-to make it sound better... Hey, who knows whether any of these theories or the one I gave earlier are real... In other words, where did the word "hoopty" come from? Your guess is as good as mine. Sista Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: khandu Date: 12 Jul 05 - 11:47 PM "I do NOT love new slang words.....I come very close to despising new slang that is created just in order to be different and stay ahead of everyone else....much of it, as 'hooptie', bears little direct resemblance to what it purports to describe. It is a divisive, confusing, awkward way to advance communication. Some slang used to be clever, useful and relevant, even if you didn't use it yourself....but much of today's is just random babble. what, me? opinionated and outdated? naaawwwww......." Copy that!! k |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: coldjam Date: 12 Jul 05 - 11:57 PM All I gotta say is "Faaaar out!" |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: sixtieschick Date: 13 Jul 05 - 12:00 AM I love inserting old, out-of-date slang expressions into "intellectual" dialogue for contrast. golly gee gee whilickers geez Louise scuttlebutt it's the berries heavens to Betsy boy howdy brother, you ain't kiddin' birds-eye lowdown my stars etc. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Chip2447 Date: 13 Jul 05 - 12:02 AM Around here a crest in the road used to be called whoopty do, or a hoopty do. and any car that you drove over a hoopty do fast enough to get air under all four tires was called a hoopty, enough hooptying and you wound up with a broken down old car. I suspect that the term hoopty predates hip hop. Chip2447 |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Azizi Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:06 AM Chip2447, Since we [African Americans] are always alert to words [and music]that we can take hold of and use as is or, more often, stretch and re-shape for our creative purposes, it's quite possible that "the term hoopty predates hip hop". You wrote "Around here a crest in the road used to be called whoopty do, or a hoopty do. and any car that you drove over a hoopty do fast enough to get air under all four tires was called a hoopty, enough hooptying and you wound up with a broken down old car. " May I respectfully ask where 'here' is, when it was that these words were used, and by which ethnic or age group? And would you share your thoughts on why these terms were used for a broken down old car? Thank you. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,Nellie Clatt Date: 13 Jul 05 - 03:02 AM If you lot learned how to speak the Queens English properly you wouldn't need any stupid invented words. Gawd what a lousy bloody job we did in teaching you colonials. Talk about estuary English |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:22 AM Yep, there ain't no bad students, jest bad teacherz. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Leadfingers Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:33 AM I personally think it would be a reasonable improvement if the 'average' American learned to speak English . Ducks down and Runs like Hell !!! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Azizi Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:48 AM And I suppose if we [colonials of whatever race and ethnicity]learned all those old English folk songs, there would be no need for 'invented' songs after-what?-the 18th century... Yeah, right. [said with much sarcasm] |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,Azizi Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:50 AM And I suppose if we Americans[ of whatever race and ethnicity]learned to sing all those old English folk songs, there would be no need for 'invented' songs after-what?-the 18th century... Yeah, right. [said with much sarcasm] |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,Azizi Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:58 AM Sorry for the double posting... my computer was taking its time and [as usual]I was impatient. But I guess it's doubled for emphasis... And none of this is to say that students shouldn't learn how to speak and use 'standard' English.. I thank those vocabulary quizzes in Reader's Digest magazines for sparking my interest in word meanings, and one of my leisure pastimes in high school was to read a dictionary to learn new words. I consider my interest in slang as part of my overall interest in etymology. IMO, using slang can fun and harms no one if used in its proper place {i.e: not in the professional area unless you're blessed to work for yourself or have a laid back job}. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Dave Hanson Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:22 AM Except for the people who haven't got a clue what on earth you are talking about. eric |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: coldjam Date: 13 Jul 05 - 10:37 AM I'm pretty sure the reason "we" left the British Isles was so that we could speak how-ever-the-hell we wanted to. That, and to eat our "crisps" out of small cardboard boxes rather than *hurumph* folded paper! (you know, whatever it takes to make us feel superior to one another) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Azizi Date: 13 Jul 05 - 10:45 AM eric, If you or anyone else wants to learn slang terms, the Internet has all sorts of resources-some better than others in turns of accuracy and 'up to dateism'. I often include hyperlinks to Internet resources on slang such as this one: Surfing for Slang I also often include definitions to the slang terms that I use. If you could care less about slang, that's one thing. But if you are the least bit interested in learning different slang terms, then in this Internet age, you can do so right from your home [or work; or library; or school] computer... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: manitas_at_work Date: 13 Jul 05 - 11:27 AM We eat our crisps out of bags (usually foil) and our chips out of folded paper. On the other hand we do have fries in cardboard boxes. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 13 Jul 05 - 11:32 AM FROM: Random House Dictionary of American Slang Vol. II, J.E. Lighter.
hoopty n. [ orig. unkn.; cf. slightly earlier syn. hoopy in Dictionary of American Regional English Orig. Calif an automobile. Also vars.
1968 - 70 Current Slang. III & IV '70; Hoopty, whoopty, n. A car, - Watts. 1970 Land Underground Dict. 105 hoopdee Latest model car. 1985 "J. Blowdryer" Mod. Eng. 64 hoopry [sic] a car. 1986 Morning Call (Allentown, Penn.) (Aug 18) [Court slang:] Hoopty; Car. 1988 Norst Colors 209; The Man everywhere, like four to a hoopty, 1990 "Sir Mix-A-Lot" My Hooptie )rap song0: My hooptie rollin'. 1995 UTSQ: Hooptie, a big older model ('76) car. He was driving his grandmother's hooptie.
My Hooptie (1990)(released as a 12 inch)Producer Nastymix Records By Sir Mix-A-Lot (aka - Anthony Ray DOB August 13, 1963, Seattle Wash.)
My hooptie rollin', tailpipe draggin'
My hooptie - my hooptie
Four door nightmare, trunk locks' stuck
Cars barely movin', but now we got heat In a hooptie
It's a three-ton monster, econo-box stomper
By a hooptie
Runnin' outta gas, stuck in traffic
It's my hooptie
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Emma B Date: 13 Jul 05 - 11:37 AM I love slang, particularly archaic slang......the origins and changes in usage can be facinating both from etymology and a social perspective..... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Azizi Date: 13 Jul 05 - 12:13 PM Thanks, Gargoyle . That was the very song that I was thinking of. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Chip2447 Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:25 PM Azizi, "Where"; Central Missouri. "When"; This would have been around the early to mid seventies that I actually became aware of the usage. "Who"; Rural, Caucasian teens. "Why"; If one were to drive a car/vehicle hard like teens are wont to do you can expect severe wear and tear on your vehicle and if you drove fast enough over a whoopty do your car got airborn then crashed back down on tires and suspension often bottoming out. This always led to turning cars into junk the steps being; 1) my new??? (to me) car. That you tried to take care of. 2) The car, Was just transportation. 3) Whoopty/hoopty, a car that you didn't take care of. Too many trips over the whoopty dos, or too many Brodies (donuts), or too many trips into a farm field at 70 mph. 4) Fishing/Farm car, only good to drive around the farm or to your favorite fishing/swimming/party place. Usually meant that you had just gotten another "NEW" to you car. 5) Field car, when your car finally succumbs to the punishment that you've so skillfully dished out and has to be parked in a field somewhere because it will no longer run. Hope this helps. It kinda surprises me that no one else has a similiar tale. Surely we werent on the cutting edge...LOL Pax. Chip2447 |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Azizi Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:31 PM Chip2447, sounds to me that you guys {and gals} had it goin on! Thanks! Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Bill D Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM "I personally think it would be a reasonable improvement if the 'average' American learned to speak English ." hey, leadfingers..*grin*...good thing you ducked and ran!...now, just where IS it in jolly olde England that one goes to hear the "proper" form of English? Northumbria? Hull? Within earshot of the Bow Bells for a good education in Cockney? The BBC news programs? goodness! If you can't find an 'avarage' Englishman, how are we gonna determine an average American an educate him? Now, let me clarify my early post for Azizi and others who might think I am criticizing a group of people. The point is, slang, argot, vernacular, jargon, patois, etc.....is clear and useful within a group who understand its current usage. "Noun: slang Informal language consisting of words and expressions that are not considered appropriate for formal occasions; often vituperative or vulgar" If members OF a group find it 'cool' (*grin*) to play this game with each other so that they can maintain an identity and/or be intentionally confusing to outsiders, well....I certainly see why they might at times. But if they use ONLY this informal language, and are unable to switch into something resembling 'standard' speech for formal (i.e., business) occasions, it becomes a problem. People are passed over in job interviews, they get bad grades in school, they get into altercations with OTHER groups who use different slang and interpret words wrong. I note that it is difficult to search for origins of words like 'hooptie', because they were said before they were spelled, and whether 'hoop' or 'whoop' was the main basis gets muddy with time. You, Azizi, are aware of much of the African-American culture and nuances of language, but because OF that awareness, you 'could' change your name, not admit your heritage, and not be identified in a forum like this.....that is, you are able to switch into or out of, a slang-based language at will. But I sometimes see those who either can't (or won't)....in fact, I often see posts from people who go out of their way to spell out their 'attitude' in unusual spellings and word usage. Whether the group is African American, Cockney, Georgian peanut farmer, Texan or Maine fisherman, if they lose awareness of what is considered 'standard' speech and throw their slang (and more extreme forms of pronunciation) into all conversations, RT or VT, they do themselves a disservice, as well as placing unnecessary barriers between themselves and those they are trying to communicate with. I remember in the Watergate hearings, Senator Howell Heflin using his VERY exaggerated southern drawl almost as a weapon to make points and intimidate witnesses. (There used to be websites commenting on this!) as usual, I have rambled...and probably gone way beyond the original point of Sorcha's question...but Mudcat thread-drift does have a way of doing that, hmmm? so...semi-rant over....you may all on with the original debate now...(not that you need my permission) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: sixtieschick Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:56 PM Last usage I heard of hooptie or whooptie was/is (it's still around) to say in highly sarcastic tones, "Well, hooptie-DO," while twirling an index finger in the air, to indicate complete disdain for whatever another person just described. As in, A: Hey, the guy who wrote "The Bridges of Madison County" has a new book out! B: Well hooptie-DO. M. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Bill D Date: 13 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM yep...I have heard that many times as a kid...but in my head I 'heard' "whooptie-do" |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: kendall Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:43 PM Change is inevitable. Resistance to change is inevitable. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: coldjam Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:04 PM From: manitas_at_work - PM Date: 13 Jul 05 - 11:27 AM We eat our crisps out of bags (usually foil) and our chips out of folded paper. On the other hand we do have fries in cardboard boxes. Oh you wiley Brits always trying to confuse us "Americans." I actually meant to say "chips". No matter, I was just trying to be flippant. Failure comes easily to me... I like Bill D's comments. If we are going to ever get along we have to have a common ground/language. To communicate. It's hard enough when we do speak the same language and everyone has their own understanding of what certain words mean. I see it over and over again on chat boards. People getting all riled up by some perceived slight. I see no problem with slang, but yeah, you should be able to tell the difference, AND speak it. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:56 PM I can't help but laugh at my friend Terry's comments. Go to the English to English thread and see how many slang terms the Brits use that to our ears sound like complete nonsense. I guess someone else's ridiculous slang is your daily language.. :-) When my friend ColK was visiting us last year, he'd get revved up and start talking a blue streak (sorry about the slang) and I'd say, "C'mon, Colin, speak English!" Which always got a laugh out of him. Much of our accepted language was slang at one point. Does having it in the dictionary make it alright, then? Who knows, maybe slang is like folk music... it has to pass into tradition to get any respect.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Bob the Postman Date: 13 Jul 05 - 10:09 PM I think a hooptie is a car that is hooped, i.e. decrepit beyond redemption. The term is often applied to motor vehicles. "Hooped" is an exact synonym for "buggered", the hoop in question being the anal sphincter. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Bill D Date: 13 Jul 05 - 10:12 PM "exact synomym"??? mercy! quite a stretch, if you ask me, (he said facetiously) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,.gargotyle Date: 13 Jul 05 - 10:28 PM The Random House - has almost a full page on HOOP etc -
Yes, the postman is right. RH def #3 Pris. anal copulation. - usu. considered vulgar. 1935 Pollock Und. Speaks:Hoop sodomy (prison).
Sincerely,
Lyrics to Hoop-Dee-Doo have been posted. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Sorcha Date: 13 Jul 05 - 11:26 PM Now, I am really digging this! Thank you Sistah Z for so much info! And the rest of all ya'll too! Internet slang dictionary also said that 'hooptie' meant the rings girls wear in their ears. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 14 Jul 05 - 12:31 AM Well - Sorcha - your definition is the RDHDofAmSlang #1 definition with an Oxford English Dictionary history dating from 1507 to 1857 for Standard English. (Not Slang)
What is round goes around.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: sixtieschick Date: 14 Jul 05 - 12:53 AM Holy Toledo, that gives new signifiance to the finger gesture that accompanies the sarcastic rendition of hooptie-do! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,Nellie Clatt Date: 14 Jul 05 - 01:44 AM Not only did we fail to teach you to speak the Queens English properly, we failed to make you understand irony and humour, Azizi and all the defensive ones, honestly can't you tell when you are being wound up or when someone is extracting the urine ? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Gurney Date: 14 Jul 05 - 01:55 AM There's been a programme on TV here called 'Pimp My Ride.' It seems to be African-American and seems to mean 'tart up my motor.' Wrong gender, wrong job. Right industry. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Le Scaramouche Date: 14 Jul 05 - 04:09 AM Top hole. Bally Jerry pranged his kite right in the how's your father. Hairy blighter, dicky-birdied, feathered back on his Sammy, took a waspy, flipped over on his Betty Harper's and caught his can in the Bertie. Bunch of monkeys on your ceiling, sir! Grab your egg and fours and Let's get the bacon delivered. Bally ten-penny ones dropping in the custard. Charlie Choppers chucking a handful. Sausage squad up the blue end! Cabbage crates coming over the briny. Banter is not the same if you say it slowly! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: HuwG Date: 14 Jul 05 - 06:54 AM I sometimes make an artificial distinction between colloquialisms which nevertheless have an obvious derivation from the object or concept they refer to, and those words or phrases designed to exclude. Examples of the former might be: "gas axe" = oxy-acetylene cutting torch; "nut strangler" = spanner, or sometimes fitter or mechanic Examples of the latter: LART, whooptie, the dog's [look very carefully at the punctuation], GAS (explanations below). I personally would find it amusing to hear the former slang in use, but mildly offended if I thought the speaker was using the latter to indicate that I was not an accepted member of his or her group. (Junior NCO's in the Armed Forces and Database Managers are especially good at this sort of usage.) Some slang falls between these two extremes. "Prang", "gremlin" and other examples of RAF slang are sufficiently onomatopoeic to allow most people to make an intelligent guess as to their meaning. By the way: LART = "Luser attitude readjustment tool" = four-by-two lump of wood, what help desk technicians would dearly like to use on their more clueless callers; "whooptie" = see the discussion in this thread' "the dog's" = "the dog's b*ll*cks" = very good, apt or fit for use, presumably came from the US phrases like the "bee's knees" which again came from "it's the business" as pronounced by recent Italian immigrants to the US. (Thanks to Mr. Nigel Rees for that etymological insight.) GAS = "Guitar Acquisition Syndrome" which many of us suffer from, but which would baffle a non-musician who strayed into the Mudcat or any in-depth musical discussion. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Azizi Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:02 AM Imma gonna try to flip the script. {"flip the script"- Hip-Hopese for "turning the conversation around"; "introducing a different way of looking at a subject"} Instead of thinking that people are using slang to exclude others, isn't it possible that some people use slang as an expression of creativity and/or a way of showing off their 'hipness' {their up to dateness with the latest word fashions} It seems to me that the creative use of slang {or-put another way-slang use as a creative activity} should be a no-brainer for a folk music community since songs and words have something in common {Gee, I wonder what?} And maybe the desire to be creative and/or hip isn't only a people thing. Maybe words themselves have this same desire. Maybe words like people to play with them and change them and update them so that they [the words]can be considered hip. Or maybe words want to be used differently or more than one definitions or have their meanings change because if that doesn't happen they [the words] may be 'kicked to the curb' {meaning=retired; withdrawn from usage; go where all old timey, old fashioned, old hoopty words go-THE WORD GRAVEYARD. To get a sense of where I'm comin from, check out this website: Dictionary of Jive Talk made me think of this idea. And to give you some sense of that site's flava, check out this introductory description: (A selection of uptown and downtown jive talk drawn from the compilations of Dan Burley, Cab Calloway and Bill Treadwell . Like all languages it is not just a question of understanding individual words but comprehending them when they are put together in regular speech! Nevertheless the amazing thing is how many of these words have become Standard English, and are even used for academic purposes!) -snip- Here's another excerpt from that Jive {Swing} Talkin Site: "Swing talk is a loose, vivid, living language. It does not and cannot stand still; it partakes of the dynamics of our time. New words are forever entering the fold, old words departing or changing. Thrown up out of this flux are the following meanings of the moment. Take them for what they are: words, twisting and turning, seeking to find fresh, unique modes of expression that will embody the nuance and spirit of a modern, tradition-smashing music." -snip- Now I'm not sayin that I know anything about jive talkin. As a matter of fact, the 'jive' these people are talkin about is different from what I usually mean by 'jive talkin'. In my neighborhood {which some might call "the 'hood"}, a person talkin jive is talkin trash which means he or she aint sayin nothin I wanna hear. And where I live, if a person, place, or thing is 'jive', that means they aint any good. But once upon a time, some people thought it was good to be 'jive' or to talk jive. I think they were called hipsters..[Well go on with ya bad self!!] Creative Black Jazz musicians created jive talk {which admittedly was an 'in language' but that didn't mean it wasn't creative}. And people danced to the music these jive talkin jazz musicians played {Wow! Dancing to Jazz!! What a concept!} But then somehow the music and the dance got divorced. And many Black people turned their backs on Jazz music and moved on to other newly created dances [some with old names, and most with old steps changed up or kept the same]. And now I see White people have changed 'jive' to 'swing'. After all "It don't mean ah thing if it aint got that swing." I can dig it. Or at least I'm tryin to get into the swing of it all. What about you? Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,Nellie Clatt Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:30 AM Flava ?? FLAVA ? FLAVA ? for fecks sake can't you even spell simple words like flavour properly |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,Azizi Date: 14 Jul 05 - 10:12 AM Who determines what is proper? flavour, flavor, flava... same same same {except that saying it one way or the other or the other does say something about you} You say tomato and I'll say tomata etc etc etc. Power to [all] the people [who can think for themselves, and sometimes do]. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Bill D Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:12 PM saying it one way or the other certainly DOES say something about you.(and I'm not sure Nellie has it yet, either *grin*) In person, if you tell me you don't like the 'flava' of that coffee, I'll get it immediately and my brain will process it with almost no effort and realize that you have a cultural accent and pronunciation style. LOTS of cultures have variations in how and whether an 'r' is pronounced. High class English speakers often drop the final 'r' sound.........but....when they write letters or books, they spell 'flavor'....excuse me..'flavour'...*smile* (but always with a final 'ah'...) What's the difference? Well, in this day & age, search engines for one! If you had posted 6 weeks ago about your favorite coffee and I went looking for it, I'd only be successful if I could remember that you chose to drop the 'r' and add an 'a' in your spelling. Not to be picking particularly on you...I have bit of the same problem, when a few folks choose to post in Scots dialect ("a braid type 'o spakin' wi' lot's o' apostrophies")...I can usually get it, but, except when that dialect IS the point, or it is used to explicitly give lyrics to Scots songs, it is hard to read comfortably. It is VERY hard to control one's speech patterns. I have a funny combination of southern and midwest 'twang in my voice, and I suppose that I pronounce some words a little differently than Tom Brokaw would......but spelling is much easier to standardize. We have some differences between countries, but you can download a British or American dictionary for your spell-checker..(the Brits have a lot of words with extra letters 'flavour' 'colour', as you have noted). IF you really wish to 'color' 'colour' 'colah'?? 'culla'?? (see the problem?)some of your postings to make a point about language, fine, but otherwise, you are exaggerating differences in places where they might be awkward. (There are very complex systems for indicating precise pronunciation patterns see this page...(if you follow the arrows, you can hear a speaker, read the text, and see the technical transcription of the text) Who determines what is proper? hmmmm...I'm not sure that is the right question. There are ways to analyze what is standard or most common.....just search Google, for example...or get out a dictionary. 'Proper' is a subjective thing that depends on context. If you were to spice most of your posts with 'jive talk', you'd no doubt get compaints or just be ignored by some...and be misunderstood by others. It's not like anyone can make a law about how you can speak ...or even how you spell. But there are certainly standards that allow people who have variable dialects to communicate. In Germany, there are a number of dialects...almost different languages at times...but there is something called "die umgangsprache", which is basically the form spoken by the newscasters on nationwide TV, that most people can approximate when necessary. The word for 'beautiful', schön can be pronounced 'shone' or 'schurn' or a couple of other ways, but in print, it is, I believe, almost always schön. ah, well....there is no easy stopping place to explicate a lifetime of thinking about some stuff....and not easy to differ with folks without sounding condescending or critical. But typing all this, whether anyone reads or agrees with me or not, sure allows me to refine my own views about subjects.....an ongoing process with no end in sight! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Azizi Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:20 PM Bill, Thanks for your comments. I agree with you that refining "my own views about subjects.....an ongoing process with no end in sight!" Best wishes, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Bill D Date: 14 Jul 05 - 10:05 PM :>)) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,Mrs Miggins Date: 15 Jul 05 - 01:37 AM It's spelled ' flavour ' dearie, and we determined how it is spelled cos it's our language remember, it's not called THE QUEENS ENGLISH for nothing. Gawd all bleedin mighty. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Azizi Date: 15 Jul 05 - 10:49 AM GUEST,Mrs Miggins, you wrote: "Gawd all bleedin mighty." My response: Is "Gawd" the proper way to spell "God"? {and} Is "Gawd all bleedin mighty" a proper usage of the Queen's English? Hmmmm.... And do you really care all that much if other folks use their creativity with 'your' language & in doing so make in 'their' language too? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Le Scaramouche Date: 15 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM Tongue-in-cheek? Anyway the internet seems to be bringing back irregular, phonetic spelling. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:12 AM Wal dash my buttons! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Le Scaramouche Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:37 AM What a rum cove. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Bill D Date: 15 Jul 05 - 12:21 PM ah, Nellie & Mrs. Miggins...we colonials are devious! Just think how much ink we save every years by NOT printing all those extra 'u's in words!.....and DO consider saving yourselves some ink by spelling all those excessively long place names like you pronounce them... Chumley and Wustasher alone would save thousands of £s a year, I'd wager! when people keep a language for centuries, they just forget to innovate, it seems! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Le Scaramouche Date: 15 Jul 05 - 12:30 PM Style, my dear egg, style. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Charmion Date: 15 Jul 05 - 06:30 PM We Canadians get the worst and best of both Yank and Brit versions of English. What you folks down south call "soda" we call "pop". We're less inclined to sit on a "chesterfield" these days, but that's just because we watch TV, where everyone sits on the sofa (Brit) or couch (yank). Some of us still have a car with a boot (I do), but hardly anyone's car has a bonnet or wings anymore; they've changed to a hood and fenders. And if that weren't confusing enough, we have mid-Atlantic spelling: "Analyze the new flavours ..." and muddle ourselves up with French: "You hardly left me any place on that bench; shove over"! No wonder so many people out west like to speak Ukrainian or Mandarin. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Bill D Date: 15 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM oh, Charmion! The soda/pop thing is a REAL quagmire! take a look I grew up saying 'mostly' pop, but we moved so often that I heard 'em all, and sodapop was a nice alternative..*grin*....and as the page indicates, "coke" was an all-purpose word in some areas! Old trick, which only makes sense if you live in the right place: call local store....ask "do you have pop on ice?" "Yes" "well, let him out, Mom wants him to do some chores" |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Dave Hanson Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:42 AM Gawd..........phonetic spelling of god, regional accent in England not slang. Anyway viva la difference, languages are like folk music, not a set of fixed words or spellings but a living process, wouldn't the world be dull and lacking colour if we all talked exactly the same. eric |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Le Scaramouche Date: 16 Jul 05 - 11:26 AM Could someone please explain this Americanism of saying phenom?? It's been bugging me for months. Phenom's only part of a proper and prefectly good word! Phenomenum is singular, phenomena, plural. Would be like me suddenly saying this is incre, this is ama, what a fantas car, etc. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Bill D Date: 16 Jul 05 - 12:24 PM sadly, there's a LOT of gratuitous abbreviation going on, but I don't think it's peculiarly American...I think it is partly that and partly a youth thing. Part of it is related to AOL and it's spin-off 'instant messaging' phenomenon (isn't that the correct singular?) When one is carrying on 9 simultaneous conversations, 'u cnt jst tpe all th wrds' (or maybe u jst wnt). But it has gone WAY beyond that...WWW pages that depend on user contributions ask for 'contris'. Ethnic slang uses many, many abbreviations to sound 'cool', and it is picked up by those who hope to be 'cool' without needing an ethnic identity. I, myself, am tempted at times since I am a two-finger typist and rather slow; but I usually just prefer to see my own thoughts spelled out. I do make one exception however....I will sometimes type (usually in just informal blather) "through" as "thru", just because it is shorter and eliminates ONE of the many confusing 'ough' words in the language. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Le Scaramouche Date: 16 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM Yes, sorry, I misspelt it. Phenomenon it is. I don't mind phenom as informal shorthand in, say, instant messaging, but in speech??? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Ferrara Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:31 PM Sitting here grinning. For one thing, my hubby (Bill D) and I have had various versions of this discussion for most of the 24+ years we've been married. My own outlook is well summed up by Aziz's quote from the Jive Talk site: "Swing talk is a loose, vivid, living language. It does not and cannot stand still; it partakes of the dynamics of our time. New words are forever entering the fold, old words departing or changing. Thrown up out of this flux are the following meanings of the moment. Take them for what they are: words, twisting and turning, seeking to find fresh, unique modes of expression that will embody the nuance and spirit of a modern, tradition-smashing music." I'm for upholding folks' right to find fresh, unique modes of expression. I'm also in favor of supporting people in holding on to their cultural uniqueness rather than trying to meld into the "mainstream." (different discussion though....) My opinion on modes of expression doesn't just apply to jive. I like dialects and colloquialisms. To me they're certainly as valid and special as local quilt designs, or folk art motifs, or ballad variations, or fiddling styles in expressing the unique character of the people who use them. They're human and they express individuality. They are an important antidote to cultural homogenization, mechanization, plasticizing and dehumanization which are major forces in the 21st century.... How's that for finding highfalutin' reasons for just liking something? The other reason I'm grinning is that I just loved reading "My Hooptie." Wow. Wish I could hear it although maybe I wouldn't like that as much, who knows? Gargoyle, thank you very much for posting the words! I'm sure I would never have run across it otherwise and -- I really enjoyed it, have read it twice now. (Just another indication to my spouse that I've got low tastes.... he already knows I like Sh-Boom, the Beatles, and Danny Boy). BTW Gargoyle should "tabs expired" read "tags expired"? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Rumncoke Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:36 PM Even in England the language of the older generations differs from place to place town to town, add in the youngsters, incomers, other groupings and English as a language fragments into thousands upon thousands of mini dialects. I have picked up oddments from the Indian sub continent - 'lathy charge', for instance - what the news would call a baton charge by police; pigeon English from who knows where, 'wheelie-wheelie', a bicycle; I occasionally bring people up all standing using nautical terms. Most people apparently have the ability to change their vocabulary to suit the situation, having a different dialect to use with parents, peers, maybe teachers or managers at work. Most slang seems to be used deliberately - dialect is more a local habit, and there tends to be a lingua franka for interactions with strangers. Perhaps it is more a lingua telephona these days. It can be quite interesting listening to someone on the phone changing their whole way of speaking between calls. Without the visual input of conversation people tend to put more effort into what they say and try to create a verbal persona grata. It can be embarassing, though, just listening, because it is so obviously, audibly, false. I realise I tend to use bits of Latin out of habit and have made a conscious decision to use them where they are natural to me. It used to be a dialect, when I was younger, but now it would have to be catagorised as slang. Anne |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Dave Hanson Date: 17 Jul 05 - 02:18 AM Nothing wrong with slang and jive talk, it's bloody mobile feckin phone text speak that is so feckin irritating, definately a ' yoof ' thing. eric |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: GUEST,Azizi Date: 17 Jul 05 - 07:55 AM Ferrara, I was feelin rather alone in this discussion so let me say that it's a pleasure to meet a kindred spirit. And in to toast this meeting, here's a children's cheer {written somewhat phonetically}: BOOM CHICKAH BOOM Caller: I saidah boom chickah boom. Group: I saidah boom chickah boom. Caller: I saidah boom chickah bo-oom. Group: I saida boom chickah bo-oom. Caller: I saidah boom chickah rockah chickah rockah chickahboom. Group: I saidah boom chickah rockah chickah rockah chickahboom. Caller: Well, alrigh-ite. Group: Well, alrigh-ite. Caller: Well, Okay. Group: Well, Okay. Caller: One more time. -snip- The caller then repeats the entire cheer, but usually selects a different way to say it {such as faster, or as if she [he]is mouthing words under water}. The group continues to imitate the caller. For the record, I have seen this performed without accompanying movements {such as foot stomps] or as a foot stomping cheer [African American elementary school aged girls & boys; Pittsburgh area, 1980s to date]. I also saw it recited as a playground cheer by African American elementary school aged children on a mid 1990s TV report about integration in a midwest city [Chicago ??]. **** Enjoy! Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Slang words From: Bill D Date: 17 Jul 05 - 11:13 AM *grin*...my beloved spouse, Ferrara, didn't mention she was reading and commenting in this thread.....I must comment on her sentence: "I'm also in favor of supporting people in holding on to their cultural uniqueness rather than trying to meld into the "mainstream." "Rather than?".......Nowhere did I say, or suggest that it had to be either/or!!!! I am of Scots/Irish ancestry, and I sometimes go to the Scottish Games, where kilts are worn, dialects are polished, and food and traditions are celebrated and FLAUNTED! It is a good thing to remember, celebrate, understand and generally keep alive your heritage and its underlying language...but there are reasons for "when in Rome, do as the Romans"...at least while the Romans are listening, and if you want something from the Romans! a careful reading of my comments will reveal that NOWHERE did I say that one should never use slang or vernacular...or cultivate one's cultural dialect....etc...I only note the difficulties that result when it is used to the exclusion of 'standard' language in groups that don't get it. Some creative play with language is fun, interesting...and even useful---but some is awkward and ephemeral and designed to exclude and obfuscate....and lets face it, some is so convoluted in its references that even the users can't really explain it...even to each other! The metaphor of "The Tower of Babel" was supposed to be instructive...*wry grin* |
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