BS: Why not English tradition?

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Bert
Date: 06 Nov 00 - 02:41 PM

Yer right Greyeyes, LONG before Monty Python. I had a friend who was a Morris Dancer and he only survived because he was a big burly construction guy. People just didn't take the piss out of HIM.

Some other reasons that bonfires are declining is because garbage collection is better than it used to be, hence less to burn, and because of 'clean air' laws against bonfires.

Regarding Englich folksongs: I think that schools must bear some of the blame. They teach highly Bowdlerised versions of songs to children when they are young but never give them the real versions as they grow old enough to appreciate them. So all that they know of English songs are trite children's versions.

The reason that we took to American Square Dancing and International Folk Dancing, instead of English Country Dancing, was because the people at The English Folk Dance and Song Society at that time were such a load of incompetant supercillious arseholes. We just didn't want to mix with people like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 05:47 AM

Hey, selby, just for the record ... the root version of Irish Washerwoman was written by a Welshman for Elizabeth the First (title: Sidanen).

Just like to muddy waters whenever possible! 8-}

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Jock Morris
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 06:04 AM

Morris dancing too sedate? Go watch a side like the Flag Crackers of Craven and see if you still think that!

Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 06:46 AM

I love the 'traditional' stuff which is why I am into folk music and dance. Surely though folk, by very definition, is a living tradition and for anything to stay alive it must evolve.

We are seeing bonfire night being replaced by haloween but does that make haloween any the worse? Or bonfire night any better? Provided there is some true enjoyment, as opposed to just begging for money, to be gained lets get on with traditional evolution. Lets also enjoy this transitional phase where we can celebrate both events!

After all I am sure we all enjoy the contemporary folk music alongside the Child ballads and appreciate Riverdance as much as Three Jolly Sheepskins.

Or am I on my own in having multiple tastes???

LOL

D the G

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: John P
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 08:23 AM

Here in America, Halloween remains popular because we give the kiddies lots of candy. Maybe you English folk should be handing out gooey sugar treats around the bonfires . . . But really, it's a charming tradition, one of the few here that isn't based on religion or patriotism. The kids (and adults) get to dress up in strange costumes and step outside their normal lives for a day. I think it's a descendent of the old Samhain holiday. If English children are taking it up, maybe it's because it's more fun, or because it speaks to them in some more real way. Traditions evolve, and talking about it doesn't effect that evolution. Especially adults talking about children's games and traditions.

Isn't there an English analog to Samhain/Halloween? Guy Fawkes Day is a celebration of a political event within recorded history. Not quite in the same class as the turning of the seasons, the bringing in of the harvest, the day of the dead, the doors between the worlds opening, and all that. It's also most of a week later. I don't really see the two as being the same, or even related.

As for the music and dance, why in world would any musician give a fig where the tune came from? There are great tunes and terrible tunes in every tradition, and the "great" and "terrible" definitions are completely subjective to each musician. My own opinion about Morris dance is that it is exciting and vigorous and looks terribly traditional, while Irish dance tends to look stilted and overly formalized. The Morris tunes, however, tend to be simplistic. And they have to be played slowly or the dancers will die. Irish dance tunes, on the other hand, tend to be more complex, faster, and the musicians change tunes in the middle of the dance to keep things interesting. In general, I tend to like the English tunes that aren't Morris tunes a lot, more than I like most Irish tunes (I also like Morris tunes when played about twice as fast as dance tempo). But please refer to the first sentence of this paragraph for my real opinion.

Most of the traditional songs I know have versions from England, Scotland, Ireland, America, and probably Australia. Worrying about which came first is academic musicology, not traditional musicianship. The history of a song or tune, while interesting, doesn't make any difference to the music.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 08:49 AM

The wife's a Morris dancer, John, and I get to see it quite often being a guy who likes to get out of the house and support her activities. I agree, it is exciting, vigorous (certainly is tiring) and very traditional. The kind of Irish dancing you may not have seen is the sean nos or "old style" solo Irish dancing which is very loose and employs the whole body (well, practically the whole body); it's what the modern and rather "stiff-above-the-belt" competitive dancing evolved from and, I'm sure, contributed to other dance forms in the Americas. Irish social dancing has the characteristics you mention above as well.

Anyway, back to the English tradition...

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 09:03 AM

Hi everybody!

Just caught up with this thread. First off, I thought "Oh dear, here we go again" - but was pleasantly surprised to see lots of new ideas bubbling up. Special thanks to Gervase for the friendly comments on my article for the Musical Traditions website. One point to add, though. G writes "Sadly there are no real solutions offered... " (in the article). This was deliberate - for two reasons.

a) I wanted the article to start a debate, so I tried to leave it open-ended.

b)I'd already made some (I hope) positive suggestions in a previous MT posting. It had a long preamble, which I'll spare you, but the recommendations were as follows.

One: if it feels good, do it!

If what you do hurts no-one, and brightens up your life (and maybe even the lives of a few other consenting adults), then why allow others to make you feel ashamed? Stand up for your individuality, before the style police make us all into Prisoners. "I am not a designer logo, I am a free man!"(Patrick McGoohan: come back, we need you.)

Two: if it's worth doing, do it right!

You owe it to the tradition bearers of the past to give your best - your very best - to the material they've handed on to you. And if an audience (however small) is favouring you with its attention, you owe them your best as well. The public image of all things folk has been seriously damaged by too many performances that were ill-prepared, sloppily executed, and worst of all, half-hearted. (Morris men please note!)

Three: before you can teach them, you have to reach them When I started out in the education business, the best advice I ever got from a colleague was this: "Wherever you want them to go, you have to start from where they are." This also applies with performers and audiences. So if plan A isn't getting the message across, try plan B. And how do you tell? By watching and listening to your audience, instead of just playing to (or with) yourself, as too many folkies do.

Four: applause from friends is nice, but applause from strangers is even nicer

Outside the folkie ghetto, there are lots of people and institutions who might be attracted by traditional music, song and dance. But they are unlikely to seek us out if we don't go looking for them. All right, so performing for PTAs, in theatre foyers, behind prison bars, inside wine bars, at college balls or shopping malls, may not be as great an ego trip as doing the main arena at Sidmouth. That's if one has the choice, which most of us don't. But as the gangster said, when they asked him why he robbed banks, "that's where the money is." And even if there's no money, a charity gig still advertises your product to potential customers, who might never have been exposed to it otherwise. So it's an investment, as well as a good deed.

Five: stuff the media! activate the grape-vine!

I believe the normal indifference (and occasional hostility) of the media towards our sort of music is an advantage, not a problem. The media are obsessed with fashion. They need a continual flow of disposable styles and icons to keep the consumer bandwagon rolling. So what's in today has to be out tomorrow (until it comes back in ten years time as retro-chic). Being ignored is better than being praised to the skies one day, and condemned to the trash-can the next. Traditional music can spread its message effectively enough by word of mouth, and its electronic amplifier - the Web.

Six: if there's anybody out there listening, please ring

Value is not intrinsic. Things have value only because people believe they are valuable. If one person still believes, really believes, that the English tradition is worth saving, then it is worth saving. So put your hands together: don't let Tinker Bell die!

I wrote all that a year or so ago - but would still stand by it today. Further comments very welcome.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Bert
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 03:22 PM

Does ANYONE know the rules of "Gobs" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 04:01 PM

Penny, thanks for those links about Guy Fawkes night in Lewes. They and what you say seem to underline that how the night is celebrated these days, and even in Lewes, it's not got much to do with religion anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 04:35 PM

Actually, Lewes is really (and this is a serious Pythagorean secret), a massive maths problem. There is a restricted network of streets, with only two bridges across the tidal Ouse (Used to be only one, which must have made it more difficult). There are five processions, of variable length. Some of these may join together at certain times, but not all. Some of the streets are used by all societies, some are not. Obviously no two processions may use the same street at the same time, though some may turn back upon themselves. All societies visit the war memorial. Some societies must use certain streets in order to maintain their right to do so. Processions begin at about 5 and go on until about 10, and make repeat journeys, until they finally process to their firesite for the bonfire and the fireworks. Someone has to work all this out! Judging from the adherence to the projected times, they haven't got it right yet.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: R!
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:54 PM

Mike of Northumbria said it right: you've got to perform where the people are, regardless of how unglamorous (well, almost) the venue. Here in the southern New Jersey/Philadelphia region I can catch an Irish act almost every week; a Scots act a bit less frequently. English music is extremely rare. OK, so tonight Kate Rushby and Fairport Convention are both appearing in Philadelphia. It may be ages before that happens again. I can go into any Tower or HMV record store and buy all the Irish and Scottish CDs I want (you should see my collection). English CDs are another story. Until I was hobbled by disability three years ago, I went English Country Dancing once a week. Perhaps some government underwriting is in order to support performers of traditional English music and dance.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:27 PM

Where are you Rowana? Why not come on down to Mudcat Radio one Tuesday night? You can't be too far away.

bert.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:49 PM

Perhaps some government underwriting is in order to support performers of traditional English music and dance.

Rowena I fear that would mean that there never will be a link between the music and the people.

There is fine Engish music and fine English performers but little general in it interest from the English people. Spending their money to tell them that they should like it, I fear would make it worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 10:24 AM

Shambles I stumbled across folk music via the Andy Kershaw show on BBC Radio 1, a show which has been axed recently. If I had not heard the music for free on the radio I would never have realised that I really like some folk music. This radio show seems to have been axed due to a perceived lack of interest in the wide range of music aired on it. A wide mix of blues, country, dub, world music (folk) were on offer but the station controller decided that young people (that the station is meant to be for) have a narrow band of musical interest and would not like a varied diet
The BBC gets its funding from the licence fee paying public, many people with a diverse range of musical tastes, and is then spending that money promoting (playing) only certain kinds of music particularly during 'daytime'

I just think traditional music could be encouraged in the way amateur sport and the arts are funded giving it the same legitimacy
Ranting overload...shutting down.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:25 PM

Well yes, underwriting in the respect of playing the music on the radio stations that you and I are paying for, is fine.

It really should have always received equal airing with the classical music that the BBC have decided that we should be exposed to. a large part of the problem is that it has not and it is a little late to do it now.

I will see if I can provide a link to a recent thread called 'Proper Music', which touched more on this aspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:28 PM

Proper music

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: R!
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 09:02 PM

Shambles: 'spose you're right. People don't like to have anything forced on them and financing one type of music rather than another just wouldn't do. (But WHY am I forced to live a life accompanied by a pop music soundtrack? It's everywhere and I can't escape it!) Sorry, just had to say it. I like to think that the songs I sing (badly, in the shower) have been sung by people back through the ages. Like that continuity.

Bert: I'm in NJ - not too near the turnpike or the mall - just a few miles from downtown Philadelphia. Where are you? And here I'll reveal my ignorance: What's Mudcat Radio?

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Harry Whitcher
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 11:38 PM

I have read the thread with interest from Mrs Duck's first comment, through the rhetoric on the English versus the Celts, to the Radio 1 (BBC) "link" from Roger in Sheffield. I learned about folk in the New Forest in Hampshire, I was taught Shanties, Ballads and even music hall (city folk music in my opinion). The heritage is there, but it is unfashionable to be English enough to follow it. As an Englishman I get the impression from the media and politicians that I am "supposed" to feel guilt for the atrocities of my forebears, not rever their traditions. I cannot change the acts of previous generations, nor can I personally bear the guilt. All I can do is to treat everyone the same, whatever their race, religion or creed. But I think that most English people feel that to look to their own traditions, instead of imported ones may be considered racist, and therefore wrong. The net result is that English traditions die out and are replaced by "more acceptable" homogenised ones. Finally, and thanks for bearing with me, I have no problem with halloween, but I do have a huge problem with "trick or treat" imported from ET, and degenerated into teenage begging with menaces, "give me a treat or spend time and money clearing eggs and flour...."

Harry

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 05:20 AM

Thanks Shambles I am ashamed to say that I completely missed the Proper Music thread. You have said exactly what I meant, and far better than I could have said it
I will direct any more comments to that thread

Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 05:55 AM

Geez, now I'm going to feel bad when I laugh at the 'Morris dancers' on Blackadder...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 12:50 PM

Rowana, just in case Bert doesn't get back to you, the way into Mudcat Radio is via the links right at the top of the page. (The one that says "radio"!) It's live on Wednesday evenings, and you can also select from the archive.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 12:04 PM

Well Mudcat Radio is Tuesday evenings now. Mudcat is in West Chester, PA. Give us a call if you can make it 610 738 9050.

Bert.