got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite

Subject: RE: got killed by a maj7th chord again tonite
From: Genie
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 08:42 PM

I use major 7ths often, but mostly for jazz or pop (e.g., "The Christmas Song" or the final chord in "Wonderful World"), show tunes (e.g., "My Favorite Things" -- the second line of which really needs the maj7), contemporary folk songs (e.g., Bill Staines's "River"-where going to Dmaj7 from Dmaj on the second syllable of "river" at the beginning of the chorus really makes the harmony work).   Never tried them in bluegrass or classic country or Child ballads (though some of the suggestions above sound intriguing), but I did work out what I jokingly called an "Irish jazz" arrangement of Wild Mountain Thyme that used both a minor 7th and a major 7th and sounded good to me and was appreciated by my audiences too.

Anyhoo, there are a lot more than 2% of the songs in my repertoire that call for or at least work well with at least one major 7th and or 9th or minor 6th.    I don't throw them in just to be cute or artsy-fartsy. I just like the 'textures' that chords like that, plus the "demented" chords, can add to a lot of songs.    OTOH, there are some songs that just plain don't need more than your basic 1-4-5 or maybe even just 1-5.   I've seen piano arrangements of "O Tannenbaum" that call for at least 7 or 8 chords, but unless you're throwing in some funky harmony parts, I cannot see (hear) how that song calls for anything but 1-4-5.    (shrug)

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:08 PM

I play major 7th chords when one needs to be there. When it doesn't, I play something else. What's so hard about this??

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:22 PM

The vast majority of the songs I sing are traditional folk songs and ballads. I don't know of ANY in which a major 7th chord "needs" to be there. It is a "color chord," and like ALL color chords, they should be used with judgement and discretion. If at all.

Don Firth

P. S. GUEST,josepp, that sort of language is totally uncalled for.

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:24 PM

I see the mud-elves are on the ball. Would one of them please remove the P. S. from my post just above? Thanks.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 07:47 AM

"I agree that they are okay in Girl from Ipanema, Duke Ellington, T. Monk, etc.

I'm gonna go see if Pet Sounds is on YouTube."

Pet Sounds is the name of the album. Try the songs "God Only Knows" or "Caroline No" or "I just wasn't made for these times". In that last one, major 7th chords start to sound kind of spooky...

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: PHJim
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 10:41 AM

There are certain styles, like the much of the music of Bob Wills where a Ma7 doesn't sound out of place. Doc Watson uses them effectively in the bridge of All I Have To Do Is Dream. The second chord of the verse is actually a Ma7 as well, though it might be written C/b or C/B.

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 10:44 AM

"I play major 7th chords when one needs to be there. When it doesn't, I play something else. What's so hard about this??"

I think the point of much of this thread is that some people wish to discuss how to *tell* when the chord needs to be there. There are objective and subjective reasons. Some folks are trying to come to grips with the factors that go into the choice.

My judgment of course is always flawless in this matter.

(Oh, Lord, did I just respond to a post by josepp?)

Having said that, I've seriously been thinking about *why* it seems that M7 usually seems uncalled-for in folk accompaniment. One theory that comes to mind is that, if you go back into the British/Celtic provenance of the majority of the music we are talking about, you find melodies emphasizing the pentatonic or hexatonic scales. The leading tone (the basis of the M7 chord I would say) is not used much (not at all in some melodies) except in final cadences where the dominant (V) chord is called for anyway. Opinions from the theorists?

Cheers
-Glenn

-Glenn

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 10:51 AM

This thread has caused me to wonder something.

Though the historical record is far from clear, it seems that the major scale was all figured out by the 1200's. The sixth and the seventh notes were the last to be 'defined.'

Now, the 'seventh' chord we usually use (e.g., D A F# C) doesn't actually use the seventh note of the scale. It uses the 6th-and-a-half.

But maybe in those earlier centuries, people couldn't say 'six and a half.' When were fractions invented? who first thought of expressions such as 'one-half' or '15/16'? It occurs to me that I have never seen an early representation of a fraction.

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 11:08 AM

There are a fair few instances of English folk melodies where you could posit a major 7th. Towards the end of The False Bride melody (as printed in the Penguin Book of English folksongs). Or in The Brisk Young Widow. (If I can ever manage to play it properly, I've got a sort of Western Swing version of Brisk Young Widow, with a fair few major 7ths in it, which I'm quite proud of.)

A lot of Northumbrian clog and hornpipe music from the late 19th century has, it could be argued, implied major 7ths at times. Which makes some kind of sense, as we're not far off the influences of American ragtime.

I use the words "implied" and "posit" very deliberately here: we're talking essentially monophonic music. It could be argued, if you wanted to, that any chordal accompaniment that's too assertive (major, minor, dominant, diminished) is squashing the modal nature of most of the songs we're talking about here.

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 12:56 PM

It all goes back to Pythagoras, the old Greek who is the bane of high school geometry classes. Without going into detail about how he went about it (experimenting with harmonics on a stretched string and tuning other strings to those harmonics), he came up with the modern 12-tone chromatic scale. That is, twelve distinct notes before he started repeating himself.

If you use all twelve notes in a piece of music, you have no center, or "home plate." So various people "selected" notes from the available twelve, and the modes developed.

This is really an overly simplistic explanation, but in the interests of brevity. . . .

The major scale is actually the Ionian mode, which, along with other modes, had been used for centuries. The natural minor scale is the old Aeolian mode. Same notes as the Ionian mode, but starting and ending at a different point, hence the "relative minor." These two modes, used separately or in combination, proved to be the most musically versatile, so they are the ones used primarily in classical and popular music from, say, the Renaissance on (give or take a century or two).

It's hard to make these things clear without writing a book—and, indeed, there have been many books written on the subject.

The "seventh chord," as in "dominant 7th," of, say, the key of C, is G7, where the 7th in question is the interval between the G (root of the chord) and the F natural. F natural rather than F#, because we're dealing with the key of C, not the key of G.

As to the use of major 7th chords (or 6ths, 9ths, and other notes added to the basic triad), these are "color chords" and are never actually necessary, beyond stylistic conventions.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 01:02 PM

By the way, the "seventh" (or "sixth" or "ninth" or "eleventh") in this context is not a fraction. It is the number of scale steps above the root of the chord (basic triad) in question.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 04:40 PM

////I think the point of much of this thread is that some people wish to discuss how to *tell* when the chord needs to be there.////

They need to be there when I feel they need to be there. Every song I play--whether my own or a cover--has as many major 7ths as it needs, no more no less. If it doesn't need any, it doesn't have any.

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: Nobodys bard
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 07:31 PM

"They need to be there when I feel they need to be there. Every song I play--whether my own or a cover--has as many major 7ths as it needs, no more no less. If it doesn't need any, it doesn't have any."

That's a pretty sound definition in my book - couldn't have put it better myself!

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 08:55 PM

Okay, fair enough. If YOU feel it needs to be there, then put it there. Then let the audience judge whether you have musical taste or not. Simple as that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 09:59 PM

Exactly. Isn't that how it always is?

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 12:39 AM

Did I say anything different, josepp? If so, where's the beef?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: PHJim
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:58 AM

Don Firth said,"As to the use of major 7th chords (or 6ths, 9ths, and other notes added to the basic triad), these are "color chords" and are never actually necessary, beyond stylistic conventions."
Exactly. A Major chord may always be played in place of a Ma7 or 6 chord or a dominant seventh, ninth...

In the key of C, if we take every other note for 3 consecutive notes and move up the scale, we get: CEG(CMa), DFA(Dm), EGB(Em), FAC(FMa), GBD(GMa), ACE(Am), BDF(Bdim), back to CMa.
These chords work well in most folk tunes and, as Don said, are all that are actually necessary.

If we do the same thing with every other four notes, we get: CEGB(CMa7), DFAC(Dmi7), EGBD(Emi7), FACE(FMa7), GBDF(G7), ACEG(Ami7), BDFA(Bmi7b5 or B half diminished), back to CMa7.

These extended chords are not necessary, but sometimes add colour to songs.

A folk version of Hey Good Lookin' would be played:
|G |   |   |   |C |D7 |G   |   |

A western swing version might be played:
|GMa,GMa7|G6,GMa7|GMa,GMa7|G6,G#dim|Ami7,Ami6|Ami7,D7|
GMa,G#dim|Ami7,D7|

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: PHJim
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 05:01 AM

I guess even the D7 chord in the folk version of HGL could be a D chord.

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: Joe_F
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 06:26 PM

Thank you for the example, Taconicus. I agree with some others here that that sort of thing is O.K. for an occasional frisson, but as a cliche it is tiresome.

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:42 AM

I'm with you, Joe. I live in Kansas City, where the more sophisticated restaurants think jazz is de rigeur. It's really made me aware that jazz today is riddled with gimmicks, the maj7th being one.

The trouble with gimmicks is that they get tiresome really fast.

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: Genie
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 05:20 AM

Don Firth [[ ... a major 7th chord ... is a "color chord," and like ALL color chords, they should be used with judgement and discretion. If at all.

As to the use of major 7th chords (or 6ths, 9ths, and other notes added to the basic triad), these are "color chords" and are never actually necessary, beyond stylistic conventions.]]

PHJim: [[Exactly. A Major chord may always be played in place of a Ma7 or 6 chord or a dominant seventh, ninth.]]

I guess it all comes down to what one considers "necessary." Where would graphic art be if painters used only primary colors?   "Coloration" is a key ingredient in painting, music, dance, etc.   Some styles of music (e.g., bluegrass) not only don't "need" chord coloration but maybe even lose their identity when chords/harmonies with too much subtle "coloration" are added, but others, including some folk, can be enhanced greatly by not sticking to just "primary colors."

Close harmonies, distinctive harmonies, etc., on the part of vocalists tend to call for things like maj7ths, 9ths, diminished, or augmented chords. And these can be what makes an arrangement of a song really striking and distinctive.

I'm certainly not calling for "color chords" to be tossed about randomly -- I gave the example earlier of "O Tannenbaum," which I still don't think benefits from more than the 1-4-5 set -- but I would definitely not say that such chords should be used with "discretion - IF AT ALL."   That is like telling a landscape or portrait painter to use subtle shadings and color mixtures sparingly - if at all.

Subject: RE: got killed by a ma7th chord again tonite
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 05:41 AM

O Tannenbaum implies a dominant 7th chord at the end of the third measure.

I too rather raise an eyebrow when I read the word "necessary" used in this context. Nothing in music is "necessary".
(Or, from the other point of view, everything in music is necessary).

And as far as "color chords"... well, don't forget that black, white and grey are colours. For me, modal-sounding fourths and fifths (harmonies) are just as colourful as 7ths. They're just a different colour.