No More SorchaBows....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:04 PM

"I really don't know if PVC pipe would survive the treatment that Sorcha describes."

One cannot plan for every unforeseen accident.... Nothing is going to prevent all kinds of accidental damage.... I suspect that IF you're even allowed to ship it, PVC pipe is about as strong as you're ever going to need in all but the most catastrophic of circumstances.... Steel pipe is going to be very heavy and cost WAY too much to ship....



"I guess you've never made a pipe bomb Clinton."
Shows what you know.... Though what that has to do with anything other than flaming I cannot imagine....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:39 PM

In most areas, one should be able to find a local or nearby "box manufacturer" who probably makes packaging to suit your realistic needs. As a side comment to redirect thinking - the shock absorbing materal used to absorb landing impact when they drop a 60 ton tank out of an airplane is essentially nothing but corrugated paper. Properly applied, paper and/or "cardboard" is a very versatile material.

"Map tubes" made of impregnated paper probably can be found that are stronger than PVC pipe, although the PVC is actually pretty rugged. A problem with the cylindrical shape of either is providing proper suspension of something as irregularly shaped as a bow inside the cylindrical shape - and with making the package look "legitimate" in our current political climate. I would suggest NOT using the alternative ABS pipe since "black" just naturally looks suspicious to may people, and I belive it may be a little heavier and more flexible(?).

Improvising is fine for a one-shot shipment, but if you're going to be making more than a few shipments of similar items, getting the advice of "experts" probably is worthwhile.

1. People who make packaging containers and materials may have something ready made or may be able to make a specialized container more economically than you might expect.

2. The shippers - if you can get to someone other than the clerk at the counter - may have recommendations that account for peculiarities in their handling methods.

3. Others who ship similar items may be willing and able to provide comments on their experience and methods.

4. Your friendly insurance agent may be able to advise you on how to determine a best level of protection/compensation for yourself and those with whom you deal against "acceptable loss" in shipping - and may(?) be willing to help even if you don't need insurance other than provided by shippers.

Of course, when one consults with advisors, there is the problem of separating the "leaders in their own time" from the "leaders in their own mind," so you'll still have to choose whom to believe and how much to believe of what each "expert" says, and incorporate all the advice into your own solution.

When you find the perfect solution, you may find shipping shipping containers more profitable than shipping anything in the shipping containers, as specialized containers for peculiar items is a relatively untapped market. Of course then you'll have to start all over with market analysis, advertising, pricing, manufacturing - - a whole new bunch of "experts" ready to offer advice.

(There is a well developed market for a few kinds of things, and a small "gun case" would be ideal, perhaps, but the only ones I've seen are a bit too large - and probably too expensive. A look at what's at a local shop might provide some good ideas.)

John

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:18 PM

I went to the hardware store...but PVC tube, at least 1/4" thick and 2 end caps....took it to Post Office...they said it was quite legal, and quite legal on the airlines. For $5. Weighs 3 lbs.....and should I ever want to ship bows to that shop again, it will cost me $6 in postage....PLUS insurance....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:25 PM

6 bucks ain't bad at all......

How long a piece of PVC did you buy? What diameter?   Did the post office suggest a good way to seal it so that it doesn't get opened in transit?

Did you buy a smaller piece of he PVC to do your own stress tests on? Stand on it... jump on it.... run over it with the car....

That's where half the fun of 'design' is!

:-)

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:06 PM

I'm pleased Sorcha got it sorted. But JohnInKansas' comments about specialist packagers is 'right on the money' if one wants to go into such transport in a big way.

My brother (also a dance caller, lagerphonist and concertina player - duet in his case) has made a relatively comfortable living by making specialist boxes to transport works of art. The company rings him up when they want one and he has to make it to withstand penetration by forklifts and all that sort of stuff. I might add that I think someone who gets his rocks off making boxes will probably attract the attention of all sorts of amateur psychologists but they're excellent boxes and he lives in (rustic) comfort.

He got started partly by wanting a sturdy box for his concertina. He lived near a small factory (Aerolyte) that made scientific instrument cases to order. David Long did a 'special' for his concer, I got one as well, and since then Aerolyte has made cases for just about every type of musical instrument polayed by folkies in Australia. He even made one for my microscope for Tom Loy to use on Utzi the Iceman and it withstands savage attack from sledgehammers wielded by large blokes.

But none of them are as cheap as PVC pipe. Glad you got it sorted.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:24 PM

Got the pipe 6" longer than a bow....will GLUE one cap on, mark other end OPEN HERE. Also, MAY BE OPENED FOR INSPECTION. DO NOT TOUCH BOW HAIR
etc. Caps are VERY tight, but will duct tape the other.


It's Interior Diameter is 3.5". Big enough for 2 bows wrapped in bubble wrap.And yes, I drove the car over it!!!!

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:37 PM

"And yes, I drove the car over it!!!!"

Cool... now try a FexEx truck or similar over it.... Lets find it's breaking point!

:-)

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM

Almost makes up for my $46 string winder.....smile

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:40 PM

Ya... you got hosed there

:-)

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:48 PM

Oh well.......

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:25 PM

I see you have got a solution for the moment.

PVC pipe will eventually shatter - ABS pipe will normally plastically deform under pretty much the same loadings, and for most of the expected loadings may not crush entirely, especially if internally packed with bubble wrap. If you can only get blackpipe, then painting may be an idea.


Rowan,

since you are a guest, I cannot PM you - I have a couple of small Piano accordions that currently live in small suitcases that, depending on the cost, might prefer to live in such a case - would like to be able to contact your brother.

I had endless hassle trying to find a suitable case to carry my whistles, especially the Low Whistles - I finally found a 'sports bag' in a fairly rigid form made of flexible 'woven' plastic that was intended for carrying modern wide head tennis racquets.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:43 PM

PVC pipe is the white stuff that's sold for "potable water" and is used in supply lines to bring water to your tap. It is a little more "brittle" than ABS, but is pretty strong. It is available in a range of "thicknesses" but "Schedule 40" I believe is the most common and should be sufficient.

If you intend to glue a cap on one end, you will get best results using the PVC Pipe Dope sold at the lumber yard or hardware store. If you want a "pressure tight waterproof joint" the use of the "Purple Primer" sold at the same places is recommended (but be aware that it stains everything it gets on - PERMANENTLY). For a shipping can you should be able to omit the primer.

ABS pipe is the black stuff used for sewer and waste lines. It is a little more flexible than PVC, but overall strength isn't significantly different. One reason that ABS is not used for "potable water" is that it often outgasses residual chemicals for fairly long times after manufacture. For many uses this isn't objectionable, but the "delicacy" of your bow hairs might make one suspicious of its suitability here. There is a separate ABS Cement at the lumber yard for gluing a cap on the black stuff (and which quite incidentally is an excellent "glue" for lots of ABS body parts on recent model automobiles).

With either type of pipe, once one end is stoppered with a glued on cap, the slip on cap that you push in place on the other end can seem to have become "permanently attached" and a good grip and agressive torque may be required to get one off after it's been on for a while. (On pipes I use for tool and part storage, I usually drill a small hole in the cap on the loose end. A blast from the "sweeper nozzle" on your handy shop air compressor, aimed in the general direction of the hole, usually will lift the cap right off.

Fittings to provide a threaded end so that a screw on (or screw in) cap/plug can be used are available, but add some bulk to the can.

John

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:15 PM

Yes John. I knew that but Ta anyway

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: jeffp
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

I think you made a correct decision. The setup you describe will take care of >99% of situations. The insurance will take care of the rest. If you ever ship something that is so irreplaceable that even insurance won't cover the possible loss, then you can re-think your strategy.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:59 PM

And if someone tries to drive a forklift over that PVC tube and shatters it - it's gonna be hard to pretend that it didn't happen... maybe then they will just 'lose it' - no, they'd have to pay on insurance for that...

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 12:55 AM

Foolestroup,
If you are in Victoria, check out Aerolyte in West Heidelberg. I think David Long has now retired but I know that they kept the important dimensions of every instrument for which they ever made a case, certainly until I left Melbourne. My brother is probably one of only two concertina players most Chewton locals have ever heard of and doesn't use the net. He used to play in Smith's Gully and the other concer player around Castlemaine used to play in Tipplers All.

John,
In Australia we don't use ABS pipe for sewerage in any of the states/territories I've lived in so I can't comment on it but for stormwater drainage, sewer (black water) and other (grey water) household drainage we use PVC of slightly different sizes so that stormwater pipes (used for rainwater catching) can't be connected to the others by mistake. In smaller diameters it's also used for electrical conduit. But you're right about the other stuff. And one advantage is that its surface is slippery enough so that it would probably escape conveyor clutches better than the cardboard map tubes you often see.

Your comment about corrugated cardboard and airdrops reminded me that, years ago (we're talking 1960s now), bushwalkers who wished to spend extended times in SW Tasmania were allowed to send in airdrops of dehydrated food. Jim English was the favoured pilot out of Cambridge (the general aviation airport at Hobart) and he'd take the door off his Cessna (or whatever it was) and fly off with someone in the back who, on instruction, would heave the item out while Jim flew over the drop-site.

In the Mountaineering Club I belonged to at uni, the father of one climer had been responsible for getting medical supplies into the Kokoda Track during WW II and found that the best way to do it was to get large cardboard map tubes (they didn't have PVC pipe then), attach tin fins on the back, solder up a tin "nose" on the pointy end and fill the front with egg cartons. Egg cartons in Australia are generally papier mache with the usual humps & hollows for the eggs giving a three-dimensional 'crush' opportunity. A swag of these could be loaded into the bomb bay of a suitable bomber and dropped very accurately; even glassware was protected by the egg cartons. Using this info we packed a couple of layers of egg carton around the 20 litre (4 gallon to UK residents, 5 gallon to US resident) drum in which the tucker had been packed. This protected the tucker from even a direct hit (80+ knots airspeed from 200') onto a large rock. Of course, now that we're ecologically sensitive we don't do airdrops into Tassie but John's right about the crush resistance of cardboard in such shapes.

These days, the only other musical reference I have for egg cartons (just to cope with accusations of thread creep) is that a room that has its walls and ceiling lined with them is almost completely anechoic and (especially if painted black) a bit of a status cymbal for kids' garage bands

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 02:39 AM

Rowan -

I think the egg cartons on the wall may be at least partly mythic.

When my son's "rock band" played in a small room that I'd enclosed solidly in the basement, with egg cartons on all four walls and ceiling, and with limp carpet suspended in front of the egg cartons, with all doors and windows shut and where necessary provided with styrofoam plugs at least 5 inches thick
-
-
we still got complaints from neighbors up to 3 blocks away.

I don't think anyone could have detected an echo of any sort when they played - but of course they weren't recording.

The use of ABS for sewer/drain pipe in the US is apparently a matter of economics. The ABS is usually at least a bit cheaper than PVC of the same bore, and the ABS usually has a slightly - to significantly - thicker wall. ABS generally is used only for drain lines inside the structure, with clay, concrete, or cast iron still being preferred for "public sewers" (laterals and mains) so far as I know.

Some use is made of "plastic" conduit for wiring, but the stuff commonly found in the shops is a slightly different composition than the PVC, and generally is grey in color rather than white. What I've seen of it appears to be a "filled" plastic, probably for rigidity and heat resistance. It appears to be a thermoset rather than thermoplastic material like PVC, but that could be due to a powder filler. A vague recollection is that I've heard it called "PVA," possibly a "polyvinylacetate," although I can't give any assurance of accuracy on the material.

In many usages in the US, metal tubing is required for electrical conduit, both for conductivity and for heat resistance. Mostly thin-walled steel tube is used (with a terne plate coating?), but there is some usage of aluminum. There are few truly "national" standards, although there are "guidelines," so usage varies a lot by locality within the US.

John

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 06:33 PM

Thanks John, another great myth bites the dust.

The only way I can see to get a discussion on the relative merits of PVC pipe back onto a folk music thread is the mention that the 12mm diameter piping (the PVC sort is used as electrical conduit in Australia, and the black ABS/polythene stuff is used for garden/agricultural/horticultural water reticulation almost everywhere) is used for ad hoc wind instruments by various people. The best proponent by far would have to be Linsey Pollack (he of the musical carrot, kitchen-glove gaijda, gaffer tape & "Kev the roadie" fame) who gave a great set of worshops at this year's National Folk Festival (in Canberra) with such piping.

Great sounds, but much too narrow for Sorcha's bows. Although, if Sorcha used lots of his offcuts in a frame he could make a great 'thongaphone'.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:10 PM

Well, I heard from them....they say that their 'investigation' shows that the damage did not happen on Their Watch...we'll see. Talking to Postmistress Tuesday morning. Right now, I can't even get my Insurance money back.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:45 PM

Best of luck, Sorcha.
Aren't bureaucrats just the greatest advertisement for democracy/freedom/anarchy/despotism/pick an -ism?
Cleaning out an office recently I came across some PVC pipe that had been used as a mailing tube for Landsat prints... as an element in a thongaphone it would be approx D below middle C.

Foolestroup,
On the Ausfolk site recently (after my post above) there was some other chat about transporting instruments by air and dealing with/avoiding damage to them. I made similar comments on that site and decided to Google "Aerolyte Australia" and found they're still in West Heidelberg. I am assured that the Australian Folk Alliance website is setting up a collection of horror stories and preventative measures but I've been flat out like a lizard drinking and haven't been able to follow it up yet.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:07 PM

Well, I do now know that PVC will NOT hold up to an 18 wheeler/empty stock trailer, but it only cost me $6. 'Should' hold up to a conveyer belt...can't think how to test that. WILL hold up to a normal car/truck.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: fiddler
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:24 AM

Sorcha,

Dreadful news, I don't think I'd be too happy. good luck in finding replacements. I use carbon fibre now but they would break just the same.

Happy bowless hugs

Andy