Tunes - their place in the tradition

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:07 AM

Tune playing historically has been an activity that cuts across the class barrier. This is quite an interesting point to consider, and has popped up occasionally in this thread. I could make a lot of points on this topic, but I'll confine myself to, and got paid. He was roundly ticked off by his dad(also a fiddler) for this: the Hardy family(according to dad) were a cut above that. This is quite interesting, as we see instantly that the fiddling(playing the same tunes) was an acitivity that crossed effortlessly over the class divide. It was not the fiddling that was a problem to the dad, it was the fiddling for money.
THis division still exists, between the hobbyist musicians and the professionals. In some cases this has inverted in the last two hundred years, so in general now the professional musician is awarded higher status than the amateur. But by no means always. These points need consdering when you are discussing the class of people that kept the music alive(or made it in the first place).

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:16 AM

A work may be contemporary, and in copyright, but anonymous (=anon). This problem is one of the flavours of this year for copyright lawyers, who call such works "orphan works".

Originally (well, at least before the Copyright Act 1911 and in some respects before the previous Fine Arts Copyright Act) was a monopoly for publishers not composers, which was why IMHO if the first publisher of a work is known it is not "anon".

"Public Domain" is not a term of art in UK copyright law.

"Public Ownership" AFAIK has no meaning at all.

And a work may be IMHO "traditional" without being anon.

There are references to "folksongs" in the headings of S 61 and S 169, but the word is not used in the sections (ie the operative parts) and not defined.

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:25 AM

Will, that was probably The Sugar Wassail, and it's on Holy Heathens and the Old Green Man.

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:28 AM

Spot on Ruth - I bought the CD at the gig last night but have been unable to play it yet. But the title has now come back to me - and that's what it was. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:07 AM

"And a work may be IMHO "traditional" without being anon."

And in mine and 99% of the folk world, too, which is why I said what I said above. But there is no legal status for such works, because the law provides no distinction between the two terms. It's just 'in copyright' or 'out of copyright,' and once it's out, the requirement for attribution/ownership, which until then was necessary for the maintenance of copyright, lapses. Which is why, for moral and research reasons, we need to encourage an awareness of authorship as well as copyright. And a habit of attribution is helpful for both, as well as in helping to avoid complications concerning works which are in fact still in copyright.

Tom

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:08 AM

their place in the tradition,they are there to be danced to.
[bouzuki players please note ,perhaps they could stop thrashing away off the beat and all over the shop]and listen to some good ceilidh band pianos playing ON the beat, [or just listen to other musicians and try and play with abity of lift] and making us feel we want to get up and dance.

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:36 AM

I can't imagine meself singing "The dirty blackleg librarian" somehow

I would love to know a bit more about the popularity of TBM among actual miners. I suspect - with no evidence - that it's generally fairly low, although rising (with regional variations) around 1984-5.

The possibility has been raised that TBM originated not from Mr Sampey of Bishop Auckland but from the Yahie Miners, as reimagined by Bert Lloyd. Assume for the sake of argument that that's correct. Then you've got a song in praise of unionised miners being unforgiving and vicious, if not murderous (this stuff is far less prominent in the Yahie Miners) - and this song's produced by a non-miner & sung with great relish by other non-miners. (Self included. Well, my Dad's father was in fact a miner, but I never knew him.) I can't help thinking these two things are related - and that radical song sometimes has a particular intensity when you feel that you're joining in other people's battles, rather than fighting your own.

Tunes, anyway, are generally a lot more contentious - although I do remember the time I was busking on the flute and some away Rangers supporters asked me for the Sash... (I genuinely didn't know it, or even know of it.)

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:48 AM

Phil,

given the history of struggle, strife and strikes a lot of other trades and professions would more likely to be blacklegs:


It's in the evening after dark
When the blackleg surgeon goes to work
with his bloodstained fingers and private shirt
There goes the blackleg surgeon

See you tonight?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:17 AM

Bubblyrat - Jinky Wells, Bampton's fiddler (inter alia !) "adapted"

'Ye Banks and Braes" and it emerged as "The Webley Twizzle".

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:11 AM

Will Fly,
First my apologies for not responding to your question earlier - a rather pleasant family visit prevented me from becoming more than superficially involved over the last few days.
Your original question:
Of course the traditions have taken up material of known authorship; but how much of this has happened recently has depended entirely on the health of the particular tradition.
MacColl's 'Freeborn Man' was, in our experience, extremely well received by the Travelling community, but whether it went into their song tradition is another question entirely. The 'versions' we have recorded from Travellers have, without exception, been either straight, unaltered repetitions or garbled fragments of MacColl's original. The song was written in the early 60s when the singing traditions in these islands (including among Travellers) was very much in decline and being remembered rather than still active and creative, therefore it was unlikely that new material was being absorbed and adapted.
There certainly have been cases in the past of songs of known authorship being filtered through the 'folk process' - Brian 'na Banban's' (Brian O'Higgins' 1882-1949) 'A Stór Mo Chroi' probably being one of the best Irish examples. The songwriting tradition in this area of West Clare was a particularly rich one and we have recorded dozens of locally made songs. One of the peculiarities we have noticed about nearly all these has been that, despite the fact that many of them must have been composed during the lifetimes of the singers we got them from, it has been virtually impossible to find the names of the composers - it appeared to have been a totally unimportant piece of information (this includes two songs where our singers were present at their making). Maybe this is due to the fact that there was no money involved in their composition - money certainly seems to play a part in the composition and ownership of songs nowadays - unfortunately. In my opinion attaching a name (and a price tag) runs contrary to the spirit of 'folk', 'tradition', however you care to identify it and guarantees that it will always be the property of the composer rather than the folk (in the proper sense of the word) and will remain unabsorbed and unadapted.   
So a shorter response to your question - if the machinery was in place and in good condition, it doesn't matter where the songs came from for their acceptance into the tradition.   
Regarding your point about tunes (sorry to go on at such length), I think the same applies.
Carolan is a difficult one; there is certainly no doubt that some of his compositions were taken up by traditional musicians, but I am not sure they have been adapted - they have always sounded (to my uneducated ear) to be composed pieces, somewhat grand and stately, and have stuck out as such among the rest of the repertoire.
I may be totally wrong, but I have always thought that the introduction of Carolan's music into the Irish scene came from Donal O'Sullivan's book 'Carolan; the Life, Times and Music of an Irish Harper' which was published in 1954.
On the other hand, you don't have to go back centuries to find known composers material going into the Irish traditional repertoire. It is full of such pieces; Reavey's, O'Dwyers, Cooley's, Morrison's... all of which have been absorbed and have taken on regional adaptations.
Again locally to West Clare, the best example of this has been the compositions of the blind itinerant piper Garrett Barry who was playing and composing around the beginning of the 20th century and whose music is very much a part of the local tradition.
I think that there is much more to be said on this fascinting subject (thanks for that Will), which involves (again) the definition and (rarely discussed) function of folk song (proper) and music in our culture and social history - but maybe I'll go back to bed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:38 AM

Jim - many thanks for your response, and for taking the time to reply. My thread, as I'm sure you knew, was really trying to explore the rather shadowy borderland of what's been formally composed and what's not known as composed within the boundaries of the tradition. It's a fascinating subject and one that we'll never probably get to the bottom of. Which doesn't matter - it's the debate and the swapping of ideas that counts.

Thanks to all for contributing.

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:08 AM

Perhaps I should have put it in capital letters.

"A work may be contemporary, and in copyright, but anonymous (=anon). This problem is one of the flavours of this year for copyright lawyers, who call such works "orphan works"."

Therefore there is a difference in law between "anonymous" and "traditional".

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:40 AM

Greg- good point about the status of professional musicians- it reflects cricket's gentlemen and players exactly. (For non- cricketers, before about 1960, amateur cricketers- the gentlemen- were considered of higher status than the paid professionals.) But you can bet that this was a class distinction, rather than anything to do with money. Many nominal "gentlemen" earned much more from cricket- though not directly paid on a match basis- than did the "players". Similarly, unpaid musicians would be divided into those of too high status to be insulted by a direct fee, and those whose services were not required.

As for Jim's excellent discussion of the provenance of known recent songs and tunes, also remember that some at least of these could have been regarded initially as reworkings of existing material, so not pure compositions as such. And particularly with tunes, they could become attached to a personality by association, rather than being their compositions.

As for copyright, the person who invented the integrated circuit, which has done more good (and harm) than any song or other work of art, got 25 years protection from the date of registration. I can't honestly see why pop songs should be expected to bankroll the grandchildren of their composers.

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:57 AM

"And particularly with tunes, they could become attached to a personality by association, rather than being their compositions."
Absolutely Paul - meant to add that, but was far too long-winded anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:16 AM

"I think that much heat is generated because many of us, and our friends who come to clubs but don't sing, are uneasy about being teachers, bank clerks, nurses and electricians singing sea shanties, songs of agricultural bliss and the Blackleg Miner, and we don't quite know what we are keeping alive or why."

There's an underlying assumption here that I don't, necessarily, go along with - and that is that many of us sing and play folk music in order to express our views about 'class struggle'. Although I certainly sympathise with the politically and economically oppressed of the present and of past ages this sympathy is not my primary motivation for being interested in the music. For me folk music, like most types of music, has a very strong escapist element to it (shock, horror!!). I suspect that many of the old singers and musicians kept the songs and tunes alive not to fulfill their destinies as 'class warriors' but to provide a welcome respite from their daily struggles for existence. By singing old songs, and by hearing others sing them well, I am not 'pretending' to be a plough boy or fisherman but I feel that I may be getting an insight into an older, and very different, culture from my own.
Note that many of the traditional ballads are about the doings of the aristocracy - and hence described a life which was also very different from the lives of the plough boys and fishermen who sang them.

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: SRD
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 09:28 AM

May I point you towards the chapter in Scholes' 'The Oxford Companion to Music' appertaining to Folk Song. It's too long (nearly 3.5 pages of small type) too reproduce here and looks at the subject from a 'Classical' music point of view, but it is an item of historical scholarship. It covers many of the points that have arisen here and is probably as debateable as all of them. One point that is made, which made my Mother-in-law change her description of "Dirt!", spat out as a derogatory epithet, to "I meant the soil from which all things grow" was the following: 'It is self-evident that the germ of all music lies in folk music.'
To which I would add that a song without a tune is a poem, not original I fear, but pertinent.

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:41 AM

Shimrod,

I'm not sure I disagree with anything you have said. I think the point I was making above is two fold:

1. The people who kept sangs alive through the 18 & 19 C are not much like those who sing those songs now whilst the people who kept tunes alive through those times are socially and musically much more like those of us who play tunes today.

2. Because tunes come with much less social baggage people tend to play them simply because they like them.

As to what we choose to sing, I have about an octave plus 2 on a good day and less breath and I don't have any great tone . This limits what I can do. I like daft songs because I can carry off the humour and I like to hear people laugh. I, like you and I suspect most singers, don't imagine myself to be a sailor a pit disaster victim.

"I certainly sympathise with the politically and economically oppressed of the present and of past ages"

I agree and I have generally found it to be the case in most song circles, although, and this is a point I have made before, less so in dance circles.

I wouldn't want to exaggerate any of these points. I think much is lost when we push contending opinions to each extreme.

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:40 PM

I sing the songs because I like them.

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:11 PM

Fair enoughski Capt. but what first attracted you to to the vast and varied collection of old songs with their strange tales, varied tempos, strange chord progressions, odd time signatures that have been kept alive by farm workers, sailors, soldiers, travellers and mill girls?

eh?

L in C

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM

Amazing coincidence, Ruth.
I've got a gig in a maritime museum tomorrow and the theme is songs about being away from home at Christmas. At the last minute I've decided to include Jona's 'Stop the Cavalry' which I've just tried out on the melodeon & it sounds good. Robin Garside who's doing the gig with me rang up earlier today and he's up for it too.

(Don't anybody tell Jona though or the PRS!) If the PRS are snooping the gig's in Hull, Canada.

BTW the rest of the songs will be trad and rather loosely away from home, Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy, Rolling Home to Merry England, Leaving of Liverpool, Send back my Barney, Mermaid, Lady Franklin's Lament etc etc.

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:07 AM

"Stop The Cavalry" on melodeon, eh? Now. I'd like to hear that! Can't get to'Ull though - not even the one in England. (Wedding reception barn dance this evening).

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 08:49 AM

I'm trying to remember whether Bampton actually play it on the melodeon, Steve, or whether they just kind of sing the "ba-ba-ba-ba-ba" bit as they dance...

Maybe young Joseph will come in and enlighten us...

Subject: RE: Tunes - their place in the tradition
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:13 AM

"Don't Stop the Cavalry" was already in the Electropathics' repertoire when I joined them in 1984. Keith Hancock and I both played it on melodeon, as had Dave Hanvey before us. We dropped the "Wish I could be home for Christmas" bit to make it work as a 32-bar polka