Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Orac
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 12:28 PM

Either is Correct.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 12:40 PM

Ho Hum. Round and round she goes.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 12:58 PM

bbc,

I had a prof at University who was a German, but the head of the department of Spanish and Portuguese at Columbia University. He was a magnificent scholar and a Quixote expert. He always said Quick-sot, because he claimed that one of the original resonances intended by the name Quixote, was to rhyme with "Lancelote," as Cervantes would have called him. The moral: there are all kinds of reasons for choosing a pronunciation, so we should not rush to judgment of anyone based on how they pronounce a word.

I think your story IS related to the Celtic issue. The technically proper way to pronounce this word in English is Seltic. However, if you want to go down the pub and don't want to look a fool, say "Keltic." People who say "Keltic" look down on people who say "Seltic," while people who say "Seltic" generally don't care as much. So fewer people will look down on you if you say "Keltic."

Unless you're talking sports teams. Then all bets are off.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Naemanson
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 01:22 PM

Well, I have my answer and have enjoyed the discussion. Thanks to everyone.

Both pronunciations are correct. I will relegate my analogy (Seltics play basketball and Celtic is a people) to the closet.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:58 PM

.....and I was just asked last week how to pronounce the name of the river that runs through my home town of Wichita, Kansas...

the answer is, it is the ArKANsas untill it crosses the southern border of the state, then it becomes the Ar-kan-saw.

and, like Celtic-Keltic, you'd better KNOW where you are!

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 08:12 AM

Manitas - good answer.

Declan - The idea that the names of whole peoples, tribes or clans are given not by themselves was dscussed in another thread before; I was not convinced. Since the Kelts changed their tribal areas a lot by emigration over the centuries, their name is preserved in different countries as Galicia in Spain, Galizien in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Galata in Turkey (you know, Galatasaray, famous soccer club is from this region), and in Palestine Galilee, some say.
Contemplating the names of Celtic countries we have two forms: Gallia, now France, and across the Channel Wales with the Welsh (or Welch, with Raquel and the Fusiliers).
Here the closing t-sound was omissed sometimes B.C., the Kelts were referred to as Galli by the Romans.
Whence the W instead of the K? Maybe the original form was a labiovelar sound, an explosive formed as a g at the velum (back from palate) and a w with both lips at the same time, of which sound two different forms were preserved incompletely. But that is not my turn to decide, I'm an orientalist. There the question arised sometimes, too.

Nerd - I think your prof. is wrong; Quixote must be pronounced Kishote. In Old Spanish X was used for the sound sh. This usage is preserved in algebraic equations. In Spanish translations of Arabic mathematical texts the x stands for Arabic sh, an abbreviation for shay' = the thing, here: the unknown thing.

Bagpuss - So you can be glad there are only skot-Scots and no ssot-Scots (except the guys who can't distinguish between soccer and rugger).

A final remark to this phonetical discussion: As de Saussure has pointed out, languages must be also looked at from the viewpoint of time. A syntactical example: In Germany we see a change of certain adverbs of comparison going on in our times. What was utterly wrong some decades before is popular usage now, and will be right later on. The former correct form will be wrong, forms correct some centuries ago will be forgotten.
So let it be with the pronounciation of the C of which I have given some diachronical examples in my former post. The Irish pronouncing it Keltic have my sympathy since they follow the same use like us Germans. In both countries the Celts/Kelts have or had their stay. But I also will respect the usual traditions of pronounciation of speakers thinking and pronouncing otherwise.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:46 AM

Wales came from the old English 'wealas' - a word meaning 'aliens or foreigners' - a bit rich really! I have heard from another source that Welsch in Swiss German refers to the French-speaking Swiss.

Welsh Cymru/Cymraeg (welsh language)/Cymréig (welsh people) preserves the hard 'c' sound, but has nothing to do with the word keltoi and its derivatives being akin to Cambria (Latin) c.f. Cornish "Kembri" and Breton "Kambre", both meaning Wales.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:34 PM

I call the Boston Celtics the Boston Seltics and them folks who migrated all over the map of Europe, the Kelts.

Now here is another thing: Most people say erb for herb. But that is French as in "La Petite Dejuner sur la Herbe" But my girl friend says Herb (like Herbert) and I go along with that since we aren't French and erb for herb seems wrong when the French word is herbe (for lawn or grass) Most people don't say erbivore, or erbaceous or erbacide, so why erb?

Gotta go take my herb tea now, ta!

CB

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 02:55 AM

Steve - "Welsch" refers in all German languages and dialects to the French speaking. In the battle of Kortrijk (Battle of the Spurs) where the cities of Flanders fought King of France's army their battle cry was: "What's Welsh that's wrong! Kill them all!" (Rhymes better in the original language.)

Coyote - That is no problem of the English alone; substituting a laryngal sound by the glottal stop you may find in Arabic dialects and even with the old Romans: they never were sure wether to say "harena" (sand) or "arena".

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Eire32
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 02:26 PM

As the many responses show, there are two ways to pronounce the word. Having said this I do not have an accepted rule with which you can determine when to use "K" Celtic and when to use "S" Celtic. Every one of my Irish friends (both Irish speakers and non) use "S" Celtic for the football team and "K" Celtic for everything else. So the closest I can come to a rule is that if it is a sports team's name it is pronounced with a soft c. If it is everything else (inlcuding music and art) it is with a hard c.

I, too, took Irish language classes and my teacher also told me there were no soft c's in the language. It is true, however, that pronunciation varies wildly from region to region on the island, but I have never heard any Irish Gaelic speaker say anything but "K" Celtic unless they are rooting for the green and white boys on the pitch.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Terry K
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 04:16 AM

Ascribed to Richard Burton - at a party in the USA, Burton was approached by a loud and objectionable person who said "Say Richard, you and I have something in common - we are both Selts".

To which Burton replied "No sir, you are wrong - for I am a Kelt, while you are a Sunt".

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 11 May 09 - 10:52 AM

Naemanson's original post in this thread mentioned the group was from
the Canadian Maritimes. The singer said that it IS a soft c, which
surprised me; because many of us pronounce it with a hard c. That's one
of the signs some of us point out that someone is likely from outside the area, because the hard "c" is rarely heard by locals. When somebody does pronounce it with a soft c; we find that they're usually from away. That's more so in Nova Scotia, at least.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 11 May 09 - 11:22 AM

As far as I am aware, "Proto-Celtic" (for want of better term) split two ways, not several as alleged above.

The split was into Goidelic (Irish, Manx, Gaelic) and Brythonic (Cymraeg, Kernewek and Brezhoneg).

Now watch the fun . . .

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 11 May 09 - 11:37 AM

Which, Bryn, as we have already heard , is irrelevant, as the word Celtic of greek, not gaelic/celtic origin.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: meself
Date: 11 May 09 - 02:40 PM

Re: the original post. I'm a little hestitant to say this, but - unless the woman were at least "of a certain age", I would be skeptical of her claim that Gaelic is her primary language, if she is originally from the Maritimes ...

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 11 May 09 - 03:01 PM

Just read all the entries for this one and it reminded me that here in Dorset we have a town called 'Gillingham.'(Hard 'G') In Kent, for some strange reason, they pronounce their town whose name has the same spelling as ours, as 'Jillingham.'

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 09 - 06:15 PM

"I would be skeptical of her claim that Gaelic is her primary language, if she is originally from the Maritimes"

Why so, meself? A person's primary language is the one used in their home when they were a child, it doesn't require that they grew up in a wider community that generally used the language.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 11 May 09 - 07:10 PM

So here's a question from a Celt and a lifelong Celtic fc supporter; How would you pronounce either ( you say either but I say either)of these places, both of which are just outside Glasgow, Milngavie and Strathaven?

Let's call the whole thing off

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 11 May 09 - 07:23 PM

Terry, them 'Darsetshire' people make their own rules. Of course it's Jillingham. Unless there is a good reason or an alternative etymology, English orthography normally has both G and C soft if followed by E or I(y) but hard if followwed by A, O , or U.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: meself
Date: 11 May 09 - 11:40 PM

"Why so, meself?"

Well, I've kicked around the Maritimes quite a bit, although I'm not living there now, and, sadly, I don't think I've met anyone born much later than the end of WWII who had the Gaelic as a first or primary language. I'm not saying that it's impossible there are some instances of such, but if I met someone who made that claim of themselves (themself?), I would if possible engage them in conversation with the aim of trying to establish to my own satisfaction the likelihood of that claim. That's what I mean by being skeptical.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Gweltas
Date: 12 May 09 - 12:37 AM

Being a fluent Irish speaker, I agree that there are no soft C's in Irish.
I grew up in Ireland hearing Celtic consistently pronounced as Keltic, the only exception being when people referred to Glasgow Celtic, or Boston Celtic football teams, when the soft C was used.
I have been involved in the Pan Celtic movement since the early 1970's and attend at least three Celtic Festivals each year, mixing over the years with thousands of my fellow Celts from Cornwall (where I now live), Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Isle of Man and Brittany and I have never heard the soft C pronounciation being used by any of the attendees, except in the context of football.
I also did 5 years of Latin in school where our Latin teachers always insisted that we used hard C's ......... so words like Caesar were pronounced Kaesar !
I am impressed by the level of linguistic and historical erudition in the previous posts on this question of pronounciation, but I would remind people that what is actually relevant NOW is that those of us, who are keenly aware of the importance of our Celtic identity and heritage, actually refer to OURSELVES as Celts (with a K!) and it is irrelevant as to what other non-Celts choose to call us.
I accept that the rules of English language pronounciation would indicate that the soft C should be used, as has been trumpeted here by the pedants, but us Celts (with a K!) have historically been a "rebellious lot" and in my opinion COMMON USAGE will always triumph over linguistic pronounciation rules.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:20 AM

It's not a smart idea to use 'Celtic' in the name of a band, album, or other venture. Instead of paying attention to the music or the musicians, people will start arguing about how to pronounce Celtic.

Starting an argument over how to pronounce Celtic is just a way for the average joe to focus attention on himself. Or herself.

Subject: RE: Celtic vs Celtic: Which is Correct?
From: Gweltas
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:47 AM

Dear Leeneia,
Please note that I merely contributed to the lively discussion in this thread. Having neither started the pronounciation "argument", nor having any particular desire/need to have attention focussed on me, I am succumbing to the temptation of now beginning to wonder if you consider that all "average Joe" posters on Mudcat, who either start discussion threads, or contribute to to those threads, to be attention seekers ? Surely not !! Designating us as "attention seekers" is such a regrettably negative response to all the varying opinions expressed by all of the preceeding contributers to this thread.
As for admonishing us that use of the adjective "Celtic" on CD's, band names, or other ventures, will have a resulting detrimental effect of promoting mere argument rather than people paying appropriate attention to the content ......... it has been my experience that any lively discussion, or controversy, is in effect, positive and beneficial FREE publicity for the people, product, or endeavour, concerned !!
Celtic is an accepted international definition which anyone (Celt or non-Celt) is free to use to define either a language, cultural identity, heritage, geographical region, or artistic activity.
How many more words should be similarly "proscribed" in order to eliminate possible sources of argument from this world of ours ?
Stating that using the term Celtic is "not a smart idea" is in effect a sweeping generalisation on the presumed lack of intellectual capabilities of those who are proud to use this definition of either themselves, or their activities.
I have no idea what your racial/cultural background is, but I am absolutely sure that you are just as staunchly proud of your origins and heritage as us Celts are of ours, so please lighten up a wee bit and accept that we have the right (smart or otherwise!) to proudly define ourselves and our appropriate endeavours as Celtic, should we choose to do so.
Kindest regards,
Anne XX