BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects

Subject: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 09:55 AM

What is she doing, what will the consequences be

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 10:17 AM

Nothing will come of it. Move along, there is nothing to see here.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 10:26 AM

The backstory of Nancy in Tiananmen Square is interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: meself
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 10:31 AM

Xi is using it to make a show of being a strong-man, for his own political purposes (i.e., wants another term as leader). Pretending that this is American aggression and implying that he is the man they need to stop it. Other than that ... not much to it that I can see .... Pelosi probably sees some political advantage in the visit, too, I suppose ....

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 10:45 AM

She can either go or not go. Either way she'll get shouted at.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 11:56 AM

it is aggression from Pelosi, Though not official usa policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 12:17 PM

Taiwan is not an official ally. Chiang Kai-shek retreated from Mao to the island a lifetime ago. I think they would prefer to be an ally,
democratically speaking.
Down boy Sandman, China knows Nancy is not a nuclear threat. It seems likely they will go the way of Hong Kong.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: meself
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 12:23 PM

If that's "aggression", I'm a monkey's uncle - as opposed a CCP fan-boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 12:28 PM

You are whatever you want to be.Pelosi is not carrying out usa policy but she is a representative of the USA government
XI did not ask her to make these statements you are being silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 04:45 PM

You're being silly, Dick. If she wanted to go to Taiwan, she can go there. If a male US government official was making the same move you wouldn't suggest it was aggressive.

It would be horrible if they went the way of Hong Kong, Don. Wretched.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 04:48 PM

She visited a sovereign state, met its leaders and made speeches. The response from China is sabre-rattling. I can't see how Xi will see the visit as a pretext for invading Taiwan. China is a rotten regime that, along with India, is propping up Putin by doing big business with him. We've let China get into a position where they make all our stuff. That was a massive mistake.

Anyway, I applaud Nancy Pelosi.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 05:01 PM

My best friend is Taiwanese and I worry for him making trips back home.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 03:54 AM

it is not her going there but what she chooses to say that is provocative,that is not silly it is factual, she has deliberately diverted from official USApolicy

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 04:09 AM

Pelosi started it[the sabre rattling] why does the usa have to go round the world interfering in other countries affairs, attacking other countries with drones, is the armmaments industry in the usa behind all this?

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 04:24 AM

Is Pelosi "interfering in other countries affairs (and) attacking other countries with drones" by visiting Taiwan?

I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 04:37 AM

She didn't rattle any sabres, unlike China which is severely intimidating Taiwan by carrying out live-fire "exercises" in and around Taiwan's territorial waters. also, she is not going against US foreign policy. She merely made a visit that made Biden feel uncomfortable, but she's on the same page as him when it comes to policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 04:58 AM

I did not say that pelosi was attacking other countries with drones ,but the USA GOVERNMENT certainly are., they continue to be the biggest warmongers in the world.
Taiwan according to usa official policy is part of china.
if Xi had vised washington and criticised usa policies that would be sabre rattling.
She did rattle sabres, and the USA president has distanced himself from her comments, official usa spokesman have distanced themselves from her however it was a provocation
Taiwan is part of China check it out.
Taiwan, officially the Republic of China, is a country in East Asia, at the junction of the East and South China Seas in the northwestern Pacific Ocean, with the People's Republic of China to the northwest, Japan to the northeast, and the Philippines to the south

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 05:22 AM

From wiki.

After the United States established diplomatic relations with the Beijing government, or People's Republic of China (PRC), under the Communist Party of China's rule as "China" in 1979, Taiwan–United States relations became unofficial and informal. Until March 16, 2018, informal relations between the two states were governed by the U.S. Taiwan Relations Act (TRA), which allows the United States to have relations with the "people on Taiwan" and their government, whose name is not specified. U.S.–Taiwan relations were further informally grounded in the "Six Assurances" in response to the third communiqué on the establishment of US–PRC relations. Following the passage of the Taiwan Travel Act by the U.S. Congress on March 16, 2018, relations between the United States and Taiwan have since maneuvered to an official and high-level basis. Both sides have since signed a consular agreement formalizing their existent consular relations on September 13, 2019. The United States removed self-imposed restrictions on executive branch contacts with Taiwan on January 9, 2021.

The policy of deliberate ambiguity of US foreign policy to Taiwan is important to stabilize cross-strait relations and to assist Taiwan from an invasion by the PRC if possible, whereas a policy of strategic clarity on Taiwan would likely induce PRC opposition and challenges to US legitimacy in East Asia or beyond.As stipulated by the TRA, the United States continues to be the main provider of arms to Taiwan, which is often a source of tension with the PRC.Both states maintain representative offices functioning as de facto embassies. Taiwan is represented by the Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States (TECRO), and the United States by the American Institute in Taiwan (AIT).

The US pussyfoots around China with regard to Taiwan but does not regard Taiwan as "part of China." I'll leave you to soak up what I've just quoted.

Taiwan is geographically separated from China and in most regards aligns itself with the West. Let's talk about whether we believe in self-determination...

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 07:48 AM

Sorry if I misunderstood, Dick but I cannot interpret your statement "Pelosi started it[the sabre rattling] why does the usa have to go round the world interfering in other countries affairs, attacking other countries with drones" in any other way than Pelosi, who is part of the US government, interferes with the affairs of other countries, including by drone attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 09:41 AM

So apparently this thread isn't about Nancy in Taiwan, it's about how horrible the US is. Got it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 10:12 AM

Not at all. I've defended the visit and given chapter and verse on US policy towards Taiwan. The pussyfooting around I mentioned is, in some ways though not all, understandable.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: meself
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 10:15 AM

I believe SRS's post was intended for Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: meself
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 10:16 AM

Wasn't it? SRS?

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 10:40 AM

Yes. Dick seems to have changed directions.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 11:49 AM

As the title parodied the Trump thread I suspect the original intention was to paint all politicians as bad as the orange one. I have no idea where it is headed now!

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 12:42 PM

The thread is a about Pelosi ,in the course of it i have QUESTIONED the fact that the USA warmongering foreign policies
"I did not say that pelosi was attacking other countries with drones ,but the USA GOVERNMENT certainly are., they continue to be the biggest warmongers in the world.
Taiwan according to usa official policy is part of china."
I have not changed direction at all, Iam criticisingPelosi and also critising the USA warmongering.
I also criticise the Russian invasion and the occupation of Tibet by China.
Gnome you are wrong, I do not think Trumps foreign policy is different from Bidens, but his domestic policy is.
Pelosi is a stirrer

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 01:30 PM

Takes one to know one :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 07:52 PM

The intimidation coming from Xi could take any form. He could order Pelosi to wear her underwear outside her clothes and failing to do so is a slap in the face of China. He is seeking an unprecedented 3rd term and wants to intimidate his own congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 04:15 AM

I often don't understand what you are on about Donuel and sometimes disagree with your views but that last comment was spot on. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 04:54 AM

Xi did not ask Pelosi to be provocative, Whatever happens it is a result of one person,Pelosi, talking the talk,
if Pelosi did not want a reaction, then why say what she said.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 04:59 AM

As Maggie sez, nothing will come of it. Xi is posturing to his own people, who are beginning to wonder about him.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 05:23 AM

Yeah, I suppose it's clear that China has a "legitimate" claim to Taiwan, just as it had a "legitimate" claim to Hong Kong. And we all know what happened to the people of Hong Kong when we honored China's claim.
Whether China has a legitimate claim to Taiwan or not, letting China take over would not be just treatment of the people of Taiwan. For decades, the West has bowed to China's claims to Taiwan; but it's clear we can't do that any longer. Joe Biden cannot do anything that appears to be a recognition of the legitimacy of Taiwan, but you can bet he quietly agreed with Pelosi's visit. It's the strongest action the US can make right now to support the legitimacy of the government of Taiwan, and I think that support is needed. I think it's a good first step toward pushing China toward recognizing Taiwan as a sovereign nation. At the very least, it's a clear indication that the US will not support a Chinese takeover of Taiwan. After all the mixed signals from the Trumpists that seemed to favor authoritarian government, the Biden Administration needed to send a message that policy had returned to normal.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 06:34 AM

the USA has no claim to Taiwan, in fact it is none of their business, the country other than china that has a claim to Taiwan is Japan.

How would the USA feel if China or Russia laid a claim to sant rosa island off california coast ,this is 100 miles from california, taiwan is 112 miles from china.
"the Biden Administration needed to send a message that policy had returned to normal.
-Joe-" quote
that policy is a reflection of this
Countries with the highest military spending worldwide in 2021.... USA 801 BILLION DOLLARS

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 06:39 AM

Taiwan has governed itself independently for longer than many of us wrinklies here have been alive.

As I asked before, what price self-determination?

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 06:44 AM

the USA believes it is right to go all over the world and exercise its miltary strength many thousands of miles from its own continent. it spends 801 billion dollars on armaments, it condemns russian invasion of ukraine [rightly so, no invasions or attackof another country is IMO ACCEPTABLE] but is at the same time happy to attack Somalia in Africa with drones
The Chinese however have invested in the infra structure in Africa, they are clever.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 06:51 AM

This is not A CONDEMNATION OF ANY AMERICAN MUDCATTERS ,BUT A CRITIQUE OF USA GOVERNMENT POLICY
SteveShaw, not so, here are the facts
As a result of the surrender and occupation of Japan at the end of World War II, the island of Taiwan was placed under the governance of the Republic of China (ROC),[note 1] ruled by the Kuomintang (KMT), on 25 October 1945. Following the February 28 massacre in 1947, martial law was declared in 1949 by the Governor of Taiwan Province, Chen Cheng, and the ROC Ministry of National Defense. Following the end of the Chinese Civil War in 1949, the ROC government retreated from the mainland as the Communists proclaimed the establishment of the People's Republic of China. The KMT retreated to Taiwan and declared Taipei the temporary capital of the ROC. For many years, the ROC and PRC each continued to claim in the diplomatic arena to be the sole legitimate government of "China". In 1971, the United Nations expelled the ROC and replaced it with the PRC.

In 1987, martial law was lifted and Taiwan began a democratisation process, beginning with the abolition of the Temporary Provisions and culminating with the first direct president election in 1996. By 2000, the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) came to power and began to pursue Taiwanese independence and identity but efforts to do so are blocked by the PRC.

Due to Taiwan's ambiguous political status, the ROC has participated in a number of international organizations under the name "Chinese Taipei". Due to the One-China policy imposed by the PRC government, the PRC holds that the ROC ceased to exist and that Taiwan is an inseparable part of China; the PRC refuses diplomatic relations with any country that recognizes the ROC. However, the ROC still controls Taiwan, Penghu, Quemoy, Lienchiang, and other minor islands.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 06:56 AM

Who took it away from the control of Japan, who occupied Japan after world war 2, the western allies. western interfernce was responsible for China being allowed to control Taiwan
At the end of World War II, the Republic of China, on behalf of the Allied Powers, accepted the surrender of Japanese troops in Taiwan, putting Taiwan under control of a Chinese government again after 50 years of Japanese rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 09:32 AM

Well I don't know how old you are, but I wasn't around in 1949. And I don't know why you keep rattling on about US aggression (we know, we know!) precisely when China is carrying out extremely intimidating live-fire military exercises in and around Taiwanese waters.

For the third time: what price self-determination?

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: meself
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 11:52 AM

Taiwan has a claim to Taiwan, I should think .....

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 12:59 PM

"the USA has no claim to Taiwan, in fact it is none of their business'

Is the USA claiming Taiwan, Dick? First I have heard of it.

"the country other than china that has a claim to Taiwan is Japan"

Surely the only country with a claim to Taiwan is Taiwan!

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 01:46 PM

Taiwan is not, nor has it ever been, an independent country
This article is more than 14 years old
Pan Hejun
Repeated moves to split from mainland China have rightly been rebuffed by the UN, says Pan Hejun
Fri 7 Sep 2007 00.17 BST
Last modified on Thu 6 Sep 2007 23.53 BST

39

James Huang impugned the UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, for his rejection of "president" Chen Shui-bian's application for Taiwan to be admitted to the United Nations (Insulting and dangerous, September 3). By accusing Ban Ki-moon of overstepping the boundaries of his power, Huang - Taiwan's so-called minister of foreign affairs - forgot an obvious fact: the UN gave its verdict on the issue of Taiwan decades ago, and the secretary general was simply performing his duty.

In 1971 the UN decided "to restore all [China's] rights to the People's Republic of China and to recognise the representatives of its government as the only legitimate representatives of China to the United Nations, and to expel forthwith the representatives of Chiang Kai-shek [Chen Shui-bian's predecessor] from the place which they unlawfully occupy at the United Nations and in all the organisations related to it". This resolution, 2758, resolved the issue of China's legal representation in the UN once and for all.

This is reinforced by the UN charter principle that only sovereign states are eligible to apply for the UN membership. Huang alleged that "Taiwan is a free and independent country". Taiwan has never been an independent country. Records of Chinese people developing Taiwan in earlier periods are found in many historical books and annals dating back more than 1,700 years. From the mid-12th century, the governments of different Chinese dynasties set up administrative bodies to exercise jurisdiction over Taiwan. The social development of Taiwan continued according to Chinese cultural traditions even during its 50-year occupation by Japan after the war of 1894. In 1945, after victory against Japan, the Chinese government restored its administrative jurisdiction in Taiwan province. On the eve of the founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949, the Kuomintang authorities headed by Chiang Kai-shek retreated from the mainland to Taiwan.

The reunification of Taiwan with the mainland has been an internal affair for China ever since. This is not only recorded by the 1943 Cairo declaration, the 1945 Potsdam proclamation, and other international-community documents - which have reaffirmed in unequivocal terms China's sovereignty over Taiwan under international law - but is also validated by the common practices of the UN and its members.

That is why, as Huang complains, the general committees of successive sessions of the UN general assembly since 1993 have all refused to include the so-called issue of "Taiwan's participation in the UN" in their agendas, and why the 169 UN members that have established diplomatic relations with our country all recognise that Taiwan is part of China.

Ban Ki-moon was defending the principle of respecting sovereignty and integrity and non-interference in a country's internal affairs as stipulated in the UN's charter. Huang alleges that the decision "is tantamount to placing an international political apartheid" on Taiwan. This is a sensationalist description. Taiwan secessionists are attempting to sever the geographical, historical and cultural bond between Taiwan and the mainland, and are seeking de jure independence through UN admission. That is a dangerous act, and is indeed an insult to all the Chinese people across the straits.
from the guardian

haha, the gnome has spoken, well gnome, how about, wales for the welsh and scotland to leave the uk,
the island of island ireland for the irish,
none of them will not because they could not survive without the umbrella of europe. gnopme you really need to think
IRELAND IS IN EFFECT EXISTING UNDER HOME RULE, but is not able to exist as an independent country, it needs europe so does England, loOk at the mess the uk is in , and you think Taiwan could exist as an independent country, YOU TALK OUTDATED ROMANTIC DRIVEL

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 01:51 PM

the isle of wight to be governed by the isle of wight, the isle of dogs to be governed the isle of dogs. little englander drivel from the gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 02:08 PM

Taiwan has been, de facto, an independent country since 1949.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 02:09 PM

independent IN NAME but in reality a NATO base, reminds me of the strategic importance of the falkand islands.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 02:35 PM

"you think Taiwan could exist as an independent country"

It has done for nearly 80 years recently and for hundreds of years before. It was only under Chinese jurisdiction for a very short while. I suggest you avail yourself of some facts before going off on a silly tirade.

Taiwan has been settled for at least 25,000 years. Ancestors of Taiwanese indigenous peoples settled the island around 6,000 years ago. In the 17th century, large-scale Han Chinese immigration to western Taiwan began under a Dutch colony and continued under the Kingdom of Tungning. The island was annexed in 1683 by the Qing dynasty of China, and ceded to the Empire of Japan in 1895. The Republic of China, which had overthrown the Qing in 1911, took control of Taiwan on behalf of the Allies of World War II following the surrender of Japan in 1945. The resumption of the Chinese Civil War resulted in the ROC's loss of mainland China to forces of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and consequent retreat to Taiwan in 1949. Its effective jurisdiction has since been limited to Taiwan and smaller islands.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 03:10 PM

No little Englader here BTW. I am half Polish and a fully fledged European. There is no reason why countries or even regions (Home rule for Yorkshire!) cannot have their own identities while partaking in economic and cultural cooperation within larger communities.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 03:53 PM

Taiwan was under japanes rule for 50 years and then after the second world war,As a result of the surrender and occupation of Japan at the end of World War II, the island of Taiwan was placed under the governance of the Republic of China.
Gnome you have an insular mentality, suggesting that an island taiwan can be successfully independent in the 21 st century.what relvance has being half polish you clearlyhave an insular [island] mind set, little taiwaner

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: meself
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 04:48 PM

As far as I'm concerned, it's up to the Falkland Islanders to decide who they 'belong' to; similarly, it's up to the Taiwanese to decide who they 'belong' to - and for the Hawai'ians to decide who they 'belong' to, should it come to that.

In Canada, there has long been a 'separatist' or 'sovereigntist' issue with Quebec - Canadian courts have ruled that if a sizable majority of Quebeckers should vote in favour of separation, the federal government must accommodate it - and most Canadians find that reasonable. Dick, I don't know what you're on about; this just seems utter drivel:

"how about, wales for the welsh and scotland to leave the uk,
the island of island ireland for the irish,
none of them will not because they could not survive without the umbrella of europe. gnopme you really need to think
IRELAND IS IN EFFECT EXISTING UNDER HOME RULE, but is not able to exist as an independent country, it needs europe so does England, loOk at the mess the uk is in , and you think Taiwan could exist as an independent country, YOU TALK OUTDATED ROMANTIC DRIVEL"

There is no reason Taiwan cannot exist as an independent country, which is essentially what it has been doing for over 50 years - except for the threat of military aggression from mainland China.

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 22 - 02:37 AM

There is no reason Taiwan cannot exist as an independent country, which is essentially what it has been doing for over 50 years - except for the threat of military aggression from mainland China,
it was under japanese rule for 50 years, it has not been existing as an independent country for 50 years, it has been part of the republic of china ., that is Official

another little taiwaner

Subject: RE: BS: Nancy Pelosi actions and effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 22 - 02:45 AM

Resorting to abuse means you have no better arguments, chances are it will be removed and it has no effect on me anyway. Well done Dick.

No one nation can survive without cooperation from others. All are entitled to self governance within the confines of global regulations. Taiwan should be no different.