BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy

Subject: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 11:06 PM

Is anyone else offended by these cards and see them as a threat to privacy?

Explanation: Large chain grocery stores have started issuing "the card" so that they can create a database of every item you buy. They say it is "to better serve their customers," by sending you coupons for items you routinely buy. They also say that it is not an invasion of privacy because your name is not on the card (just your address and phone number.) One could give a fake address, but still there is a database somewhere of every single thing you purchase and when you purchase it. They make it economically "necessary" for a person to use the card because there is a huge difference in the price you pay without the card versus with the card.

There was even a Dilbert cartoon about these cards. Something to the effect of "who do they think they are fooling getting customers to do their market research for them."

I used the same grocery store for 20 years, but then changed when they instituted "the card." My friends and family ridiculed me for being so ~~ insert favorite pejorative adjective here ~~. I even embarrassed my son who now works for that company. (My mom, the boycotter.) I changed to another store with higher prices, vastly less selection, but no crowds or lines.

Then, this week, my new store had "teen-aged bimbos" trying to get me to sign up for "the card" at their store, and giving me the spiel about how wonderful it was and how I could save so much money and why in the world wouldn't I want to do that. (Sorry if your son or daughter is a teen-aged bimbo - I'm on a rant here.)

So am I overreacting here? Should I just go back to the original store and use their card? Perhaps use both cards? Give a fake address? Does any of this really matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Homeless
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 11:16 PM

Go into the store and raise a ruckus with the store manager about it. (count on price hikes when the cards starts being used - the "discount" takes it down to the regular price) A store I used to frequent started a card program once, and so many people stated that they were unhappy that the store dropped the policy after the second month. Oh, and let the store manager know that you'll quit coming to his store if the policy is implemented.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: khandu
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 11:18 PM

I agree with you, Mary. I refuse to do the card trick.

A few years ago, I went in to Radio Shack to buy an item that cost less than a dollar. When I went to the check out, the clerk wanted my phone number. I told him that I do not give my number out. He responded with, "I cannot make the sale without it."

I told him that I did not need the item enough to warrant given private info to get it. As I was walking out, he said, "Well, I guess I can bypass the computer and sell it." I kept walking.

I have not returned to Radio Shack since, though I have been told that they have changed the policy.

Call me paranoid, but I think it is no one's business!

khandu

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 11:26 PM

Look Lady - get with the 21st Century!!!!

Until they put THE Stamp on you forehead - they don't know who you are.

I use multiple ID's at multiple stores....I have close to 20 on the net...and 40 more that I have forgotten. Even the store clerk doesn't care when I give them "my number" when buying booze or cigs(I overheard the number from other shoppers a years ago) the clerks smirk and ring it up. My only problem was when I tried to cash a check...always pay CASH>

Since the advent of the inter-net, the mantra has been, "Never be, who you you claim to be."

Therefore, your REAL decision is..."I will be an honest, straight-forward and never lie...CHRISTIAN ....with moral principles and end up a martyr in the belly of the beast. Or....I will be an "undercover Christian, until after the rapture, some of us must be left behind to tell the "TRUTH." OR...the entire system is so F-cked Over with imbeciles ...that no matter the database - they can't afford someone intelligent to sort it out.

Look, the MUDCAT is one of the best examples of a "sophisticated" database....IF.... IT.... was good...then the Market-eers would have hired MAX by now...It ain't and he hain't....

We have a long way to go....you are safe with your groceries....the clerk already knows you use Maxi-Pads and not Kotex

Sincerely,
Garogyle

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 11:35 PM

1) I live in a small town with only two large groceries.

2) They don't know who I am, BUT still there is a database with "my life" in it.

3) I trust Max more than I trust my grocer, banker, pharmacist...

4) I'm 53! (not 666)

5) Sure, the system is filled with imbeciles...that's what scares me. (If K. Starr could dig into what books Monica purchased...)

It really does no good to complain to the manager...I've tried...there really aren't enough people that feel the way I do. Now if more Mudcatters lived here...

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 11:56 PM

Gargoyle has the right take on it. Don't be who you are! I love it! The best thing would be to be someone, ya know a "somebody". Once My SO and I were mistaken for Sam Elliot and Kathryn Ross! Well it was a smoky room and the gal was rather ripped, still we played with the mis-identification for the rest of the evening.

Of course there are some people you shouldn't be under any circumstances. Right now people keep saying "Are you supposed to be Buffalo Bill?" I usually say, "Yeah, I'm SUPPOSED to be but the plastic surgeon screwed up" or some other such smarta--ed remark.

The credit companies keep harping on identity theft, hell, THEY'RE the ones stealing indentities! Of course I could qualify as a small town on my own. All the junk mail I get rarely gets my name right, and BOY do they come up with some doozies! I could claim to be ALL those misspellings, incorporate, get federal funding.

And of course the telemarketers, NEVER pronounce my name correctly. Well one did, once, and I told her that she was the first person to do so in decades and because of that I would talk to her, civilly, yet! She was trying to get me interested in siding! Oddly enough I plan to have siding put on my house next April and I told her to call me back then! I wonder if she will.

We don't have those cards here yet. I think that they have 'em out West as a Safeway I stopped at in Spearfish, South Dakota had me fill out a "discount" card. I saved about $1.75.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 12:09 AM

Hi Mary ... I am finding your posting very approriate and refreshing. Out here on the West Coast, 30 miles North of seattle, we have also been battling the battle of the "CARD." First was Safeway, several years ago. Recently came QFC, and just now, Albertsons. I joined the Safeway years ago simply because I loved my local store, the manager and the clerks. (I am regestered under my Finnish name, so I doubt "they" can get me). However, when the others started pushing their cards, I flipped. I got thrown out of a QFC a few months ago because I raised a fuss because they would not sell me something at the advertised price. Just yesterday I sent a letter to Albertson's head office suggesting that they were stupid for giving me a new reason NOT to shop at their stores. I agree with others: if we simply could get enough people organized, we could put an end to this madness. But heck, if we could get enough people organized, we could also stop your president bush from invading Iraq! I dunno! I got know answers! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 12:18 AM

When the Dillon grocery chain here kicked off their card-discounts I happened to have two register receipts from my most recent shopping trips there fairly handy.

I took those two receipts back in with me and "priced them out" at their new "discount card prices."

The "new lower prices" for the items on one receipt for $285 now came to $314 "with the discount" or $478 if I didn't use the card.

Items at the "new lower prices" on the receipt for $345 now came to $385 with the card, or $625 if I didn't use it.

I have kept my own database of Dillons purchases since, and in the past two years I've spent a total of $48 there - instead of my former $350/month. But they don't care, because "the herd" believe they are gettin bargains.

I think the term used in the Dilbert cartoon was "engineer spittle." My wife, son, stepson, and three neighbors I don't even know pointed it out to me.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 12:21 AM

I just posted about this and about a similar experience at Radio Shack, in another thread, but I can't find it right now.

We got one from Safeway a number of years ago, so the phone number, etc. are out of date and I intend to keep it that way. They don't send us coupons, they just tout that you can use the cards, like coupons, and get their exclusive savings, which does add up, but I am sure they inflate the prices first. Getting Rog to shop without one is tough, as he's got a Yankee penchant for saving money.:-)

Now, even pizza delivery wants a phone number, 1) so they can verify the order if it's a prank call, 2)so they can track oyu in the database and have all of your info for delivery, etc.

We did everything by cash for over 20 years. I went into a bank one time to pay our phone bill and my cash was refused! I told the bank manager off, then called the phone company and raised cain with them, too. They told me in a few years no one would be using cash, that we'd all have ATM cards that would work like cash, i.e. debit cards, but they didn't call them that, yet, as they didn't have them. I told him it'd be a cold day in hell before we'd not have acceptable cash in this country! Oh, I was livid. It seems the phone company had made up a new policy and the bank, as their pay agent, was bound to carry it out. I told everyone I knew and by the next month they accepted cash payments.

I have found buying a house brings unlimited junk mail; unfortunately all of it with correct addy and names. Anyone have the info on how to get that stopped? I can go look it up, but if someone has it handy or call tell me, I'd really appreciate it.

We need a catchy slogan like the Cartalk guys when they ran their campaign to get people to hang up their cell phones and drive. Store clerks don't know how to react to someone who refuses to give them any info!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 12:22 AM

Don't have "the card" here, anD I wouldn't do that either. Nobody's business but mine. Have you tried "Don't have a phone"?

I have no credit cards, and always pay by cash or peronal check. If they don't like it, they can lump it and re-stock the stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 12:31 AM

Simple.... I am a 20 year old girl named Monica, who has no e-mail address and no job.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 12:47 AM

LOL, Whizzy!! I guess I could do that too, except that I don't have the problem yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 12:54 AM

You can be Monica too. You know-- the one who has just ruined her credit by defaulting on a student loan? It all started innocently-- I took over her keyring when she moved out, and her store tags were on it. Well....? What the heck! You know the address. Go for it!

Long ago, when telecrapping was in its infancy, a friend of mine became Ringo Alibi. He gives his real phone number just for the joy of cracking up when a telecrapper calls up and addresses him unctuously as Mr. ALEEbee.... and then he hangs up still cackling.

Has his number LISTED that way too, so he always spots telecrappers right off!

What if we ALL became Monica or Ringo Alibi?

I know-- I think I may be Sam Walton, myself.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 12:57 AM

I shop at 4 major groceries here (large city, western Canada). All have cards, three give discounts or special offers to card holders including 5 cents off per liter of gasoline. The major bookstores also have cards, with discounts attached. I use two of them. That makes six cards. Add my 'phone company card, my Air Miles, two bank cards, credit cards (2), Library, Museum---and my wallet is crammed with 14 cards. There are others in a kitchen drawer.

When I take film for development, I give them my phone number and they give me a pick-up time. (My daughter, with a store, has all phone numbers on CD, with addresses and names, for everyone in the country with a phone- not tied to the country-wide cash register-computer terminals like the big boys- but the number gives her a name that she can check against personal identification).
I wish that all the concerns would get together so that I would have just ONE card rather than-
OH, YES, I FORGOT the government cards (Citizenship, Soc. Ins., Old Age, drivers license, car insurance, car registration, health plan, medical insurance-
Hell, I need a back pack!
Do I worry about privacy? No! It doesn't exist unless you have NO credit rating; if you have a bank account or a charge account, or have made time payments the data are available.
If I want your information, I pay a small fee.....

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 01:10 AM

About the cash issue. On the front of each American banknote, it says "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private." You can point it out to the no-brains as you work your way through the bureaucrats at all levels.

I believe it was Frank Herbert, in one of his Dune novels who pointed out that the less power one has, the more inclined the person is to excercise it.

If your son is working at a supermarket, he is almost certainly a union member. Many things go on that he is in a position to protest--This includes sales of non-union grapes. He can get the union to take a stand if he is willing to risk his low-paid job. It is amazing how many changes people can make if they are willing to 'just say no!'

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 03:10 AM

The bank wouldn't take your cash??? Are they trying to do themselves out of a job??

Howabout next time it happens, don't pay the bill at all and when they cut you off sue them... after all you have made a legal and acceptable (and probably filmed and recorded) attempt to pay your bill at an approved site.... which was refused. If they say on any of their blurb (and this goes for all concerned, the phone company and the bank) that cash is not an acceptable method of payment, then they win. If they don't say it anywhere, you win.

It is actually possible to do that on some buses in the UK... if the driver doesn't have change and you've made an attempt to pay legitimately, then he can't stop you riding the bus. Mind you , 9 times out of 10, the driver just gets bolshie and the other passengers on the bus get narky too.

I haven't seen any storecards like that here yet.... although there are a couple where you can't shop at all if you don't have your card.... but that doesn't seem to take any extra discount off. Things really are so cheap as to be pointless selling them (children's jeans for £5.00(about $3) rather than the £15 ($10) in the major stores for the same item), but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

We had a spate of new store cards a few years back... seemed like everyone wanted to get in on it.... ours tend to accumulate points which you can redeem as vouchers or get taken off your bill at your request. At least 3 of the loyalty cards I acquired have since been discontinued, losing me all my stored points, but I've already posted my feelings about Body Shop in a previous thread.....

It seems to me that Sainsbury's have the right idea, they've merged with a couple of other services (notably a bank and a credit card)to create a 'supercard' that will get you points on all manner of things but with the same card. Wonder how long it will be before the rest follow suit.

But I agree, these discounts only with card are no discounts at all, only a trackable purchase record. I'd love to see the telecrappers' assessment of me given my purchases over the last 6 months..... I'd probably come out as a child molesting pervert who paints their victims in matchpots, sews them a shroud and then buries them in bags of compost, whilst listening to an eclectic selection of music and reading the Kama Sutra.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: leprechaun
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 03:20 AM

So you think the grocery store is out to steal your soul? A little high tech voo-doo? Maybe they'll ship your information to jack-booted-thugs like me. I'll see that you're buying rolling papers and sandwich bags and, armed with the grocery store database, I'll get a search warrant and come kick in your door in the middle of the night.

So many potential victims of government abuse, so little time.

I had a drug gang put a price on my head. I caught one of the little buggers at a motel room with his teen-age girlfriend and a bunch of heroin. He went to jail, but do you think he'd tell me where he really lived? He had a Safeway card. Forsooth, thought I, maybe like me he failed to follow Gargoyle's advice and gave his real address when he got the card.

To my own local Safeway I go. I speak to the manager, and tell her I caught a drug dealer with a Safeway card. How do I find out what his information is? Much of it could be useful to me in my role as government spy, and I can get the district attorney to issue a subpoena. Well, call our local corporate headquarters, she says. So I call the local headquarters, and ask them where I need to fax the subpoena. They refer me to the regional headquarters. Regional headquarters refers me to the national headquarters. National headquarters refers me to their security division. The security folks refer me to their legal department. The legal department refers me back to the security division, who send me back to the legal department. Finally somebody admits that they don't want to help me out because customers are paranoid about the cards in the first place. The last person I had the patience to speak to told me, in so many words, they intended to keep giving me the run-around.

That drug gang could kill me till I'm dead, before Safeway would give up the information.

And you folks think they're gonna steal your souls?

I think most paranoia is chemically induced.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 03:26 AM

Liz mentioned the 'supercard' recently introduced to the UK. This takes the problem one stage further as it allows the supermarket to 'see' purchases made elsewhere. You buy a video on your credit card, they start pushing sales of blank video tapes ...

I was prepared to take the old supermarket card, but not this new one.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Bert
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 03:48 AM

Gargoyle and Wysi have got the right idea. Just be someone (or many) else.

I quite accidentally lose my card every so often and get a new one which should confuse them enough. Also, every so often we buy some bulk items for the church (Where Kelly works) and I use my card then. I hate to think how our database entries stack up against the norm.

Hey Leprachaun, I had a buddy once who ran a reloading business and shipped all of his ammo in plastic bags. And sure enough he had the FBI (or was it the DEA) knocking on his door thinking he was a drug dealer because he bought so many plastic bags. Fortunately the local police were one of his biggest customers and they could vouch for him.

But, back to the original question. No Mary, you are not overreacting, it is only a matter of time before the insurance companies get hold of those databases and you'll find that you won't be able to get insured because of your bad eating (or smoking) habits.

So get yourself a few extra cards with different names and addresses and confuse the hell out of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 08:39 AM

I already use different phone numbers (office phone on most forms) and never put my name, but like I said, this is a small town, and my entire life is documented at the grocery store. My only solution would be to get several cards for the same store!

Ebarnacle, my son is a pharmacist and makes more money in one year than I ever made in 4-5! But he did work for this company when he was a teenager and does not have kind thoughts toward the union. My kids are used to a mom who embarrasses them, like when I listen to Irish music or Oldtime Bluegrass or opera on the radio. Or when I would have to whistle to find them.

Once when I worked in a lab I took a paper grocery bag of tomatoes in that were garden-grown. I just set it in an open space for everyone to share, then had to leave. The guys later told me that they found a gocery receipt in the bag and tried to guess who it was from. There was ham so it wasn't the Jewish guy...there was cat food, so it wasn't the guy allergic to cats...there was kid's cereal, so it had to be someone with children...etc

RE: the pizza delivery --- When the kids were home we used to order pizza every Friday night. My 12-yr-old son would call it in. Once the mamager on the other end said, "Oh hi Mr. ____, the usual? We didn't hear from you last week...vacation? good time? Where did ya go?etc."

Seriously though, if you don't live in a small town, you probably don't understand gossip and your reputation and just how easy and harmful one piece of misinformation can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 08:47 AM

Oh Bert, I forgot...

I'm already wise to insurance companies. Unfortunately they already act on supposition and hunches.

I was employed by a school and the rule was that if 25 people signed up for disability insurance, nobody could be turned down. Since 25 people didn't sign up it was determined on an individual basis. This was 10 years before I was diagnosed with MS, but I had seen a neurologist. Because that visit was on my record, I was turned down. The jerk/salesman didn't have the $%^&* to face me the next day and just left a note in my mailbox. That incident started my quest to find out the truth about what my doctor suspected but couldn't prove and subsequently lied to me about.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 09:52 AM

You paranoids really aughta get chemical therapy...

And then take my moms best advice and give yer heads a collective shake...

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 10:02 AM

Well, I have to report a contrary view, in a way.

My wife and I had a Kroger card--that is, each of of had a copy of the card she had applied for. I misplaced mine, and when I was in the store I told the clerk that. "Oh, that's okay. I'll give you another one." And she gave me a Kroger card without taking any information at all. I don't know whether my wife's card accesses an account with our identity in some form or not, but mine doesn't. THEREFORE:

When we go to the grocery on Saturday mornings, I'm always in line in front of her, and I make a point of handing MY card to the clerk as I put the groceries on the belt. The purchase is unattributed.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 12:10 PM

Enough people have complained at the local CVS. At this point the clerk uses her own card for everyone's purchases. We don't have a card we don't want and she gets credit for cash not spent - some sort of rebate they offer.

Sometimes I am appalled at my own stupidity. It has never occurred to me to lie on the application. I even give them my email address and then am swamped with spam.

Then there was the infamous attempt at renting an apartment: "I am unemployed and have five cats. Do you have a two bedroom available...while Kendall rolled his eyes and sighed in disbelief. I can't help it. It is part of my charm"

SwordSwallower or maybe Maenad.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 01:47 PM

Sainsbury's have a machine that you can swipe your card in on your way in to the shop to gain discounts on certain items. The theory they gave was that these offers would be based on the customer's spending history. So they offer me alchohol, pet food, children's foods...and I never buy these items. If it wasn't for their habit, along with practically everywhere else I shop, without a card, of identifying the items I buy frequently, even travel to buy, and remove them from their stock, I might think they haven't the slightest idea what I buy.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 02:19 PM

LtS, You made me break out in (hysterical *BG*) fits of laughter with the crescendo of your rant... You been listening to the gossimarketers 'bout me? Just add pedephilic stalking crazy psycho killer, and my 'small town rep' just begins to bear fruit! Nothin does it for ya like intentional solidude! ?;^) Poor bored paranoid people... and so alienated from their own cruelties...

leprechaun... your story sounds totally true, sadly... it's strange that the honest are worrying about their buying habits being common knowledge... (btw-the checkers do 9talk ya know)...while the creeps get protection...

I got my local grocery card last week, and saved 58 cents right then! Since I only shop there for a few of their (cheapest in town) essentials, I will save even more... When I expressed my concerns about the responsibility inherent in the application form, the clerk (who through body language communicated "yeh yeh, I know... you and everybody else") told me to just put a name and phone number... seems the shopping info is important even without the identification process...

Paranioa is delusion, caution is safety, correct is love... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 02:59 PM

There is a local festival where they demand that you fill in a form with your name and address, then put it in the windscreen of your car on the campsite. Does anyone actually put their own address I wonder? I always use a false address - because I really don't want to advertise to all and sundry the empty address that I am away from over the weekend.......
Back to cards & such.... last christmas I took my mum to the local Tesco superstore to do the big food shop. My mum was expecting to pay by cheque - but found that they would not accept a cheque because the card only guaranteed up to £50 (not a lot!!!). They insisted that she should use the card as a debit card, as it is also a "switch" card. She didn't want to do so, as she is in the habit of paying by cheque and keeping her balance on the stubs. They treated her as a completely thick old lady and patronised her nearly to death. She stood her ground, saying "I'm sorry, but I just don't use the card that way". In the end we took pity on the rest of the queue, and I paid on my switch card & she paid me by cheque.
I know that the debit cards are increasingly the norm - but mum had a particular reason for not wanting to use it, and was made to feel very small for refusing. I was rather proud of her.
Mind you - we did laugh about it afterward.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: GUEST,PATTZ
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 03:30 PM

I Hate the card system-but I would be losing lots of money if I didn't use it. Example 2 half gals, Tropicana O.J. for $5.00 - without card $3.49 each. Thats a hell of a difference. Some of the stores make you use a coupon, in addition to the card. That is a pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 03:43 PM

I returned to the original store today (after I found my card) and bought a couple of salads for lunch. My receipt (was talking to me and) said "You haven't bought any Campbell's products this year."

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: DougR
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 03:46 PM

It doesn't bother me. I have three cards I use at three different stores. The discounts I receive as a result make it all worthwhile as far as I'm concerned.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 04:09 PM

For the first time maybe?- I agree with Clinton Hammond and DougR.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 04:13 PM

The consistant theme I'm reading here has to do with corporate power, or perhaps consumer impotence. As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I've been very pleased with my local Safeway store for many years. They always treated my parents well. The staff was well paid and regarded. I had the manager trained, and I enjoy shopping there. However, a few years ago, an incident happened that speaks to this thread. Safeway, here in Western Washington state, USA, hired a new marketing director. Quickly, changes were noticed in my store, and all local stores. The first thing this idiot did was to start moving items around. Week after week, the catfood was relocated, then the soap, etc. I complained to my manager, and he listened, but explained that it was out of his hands. One day, I ran into the manage having a meeting with HIS boss, in the store aisle. I recognised the big boss, walked up, and complained that I couldn't find the cat food. Terry, my manager, started to answer me, but I cut him off and suggested that the regional manager become my personal shopper for a while ... have you ever seen a mad Finn! After about 20 minutes, when he couldn't find anything either, he apologized to me, and slunk off. The next day, Terry called me at home and thanked me for what I did. My point is, who's in charge. Obviously not us consumers. Sure, a Nation/world wide boycott would get their attention, but it ain't 'gonna happen. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Melani
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 04:17 PM

They'll get you one way or another. I wanted to watch a video clip of "The Frontier House" on the PBS website and was told I had to download Realplayer to do it. So I did, and I've been getting PORNOGRAPHIC spam ever since! Prior to that, I got no spam at all (believe it or not)!

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: MMario
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 06:39 PM

The local grocery store now has a supersaver card - which I refused to get; now they use the store managers card when I go through the line - I get the discounts - don't have to use the card. However I am still fighting the 20 year battle to get them to bag my groceries in the manner I have demonstrated (repeatedly)to them causes less breakage.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 07:14 PM

I love y'all dearly, but are you really serious about this shit? I use two of them and I DO check prices, shop at four stores, and as far as my two stores with cards go, the savings can be pretty good. All of that aside, if you have ever used your computer to do much of anything or gotten a mortgage or financed a car or dealt much with a bank or paid taxes or voted or been in a hospital or about a blue million other things, the information is out there for the asking and easily obtained. I'm not particularly concerned that someone should find out that I prefer Linguini to Cappellini......Of course I did buy that Russian Dressing....Oh, yeah, that's okay....wrong era.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: NicoleC
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 07:35 PM

I hate the cards. More plastic to carry around.

I always liked shopping at Albertsons -- no card. I complained loudly when they sytarted a card. However, they obviously thought out the privacy concerns -- you don't have to provide ANY information to get a card, so no marketing nonsense.

They will track your purchases for marketing reasons, but it won't be associated to your name. And I'm okay with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Peg
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 10:21 PM

It is completely ridiculous that Radio Shack insists they can't make a cash sale without your phone number! I have given them an earful when I go to buy a phone cord or some batteries and the clerk looks up and asks "name?" I say, why do you need my name if I am paying with cash? They mention the database, the special deals etc. I say, no thanks, just sell me the damn phone cord. Sometimes I just stare them down and say "You do not need my name for this transaction." I think enough people have complained so that they now back down prety quickly.

As for those who think it is "paranoid" to worry about where purchasing information might end up, well, need I remind you all of the many rights to privacy we have all lost in the wake of 9-11? Do you honestly doubt if any one of us was suspected of some unpatriotic crime or act of terrorism that one of the first things they would do would be check out what we had bought in the last few months? Guilty until proven innocent and your reputation destroyed. God bless America.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 11:42 PM

I don't know if this would carry over to this issue or not, probably not, as it's a First Amendment issue, BUT, it would be applicable, I think, in cases of Radio Shack, etc. IF they were to fight the FBI or anyone wanting their database info. Here's what one independent bookstore in Colorado did: (BTW, they do mail order and are really good!)

Tattered Cover Wins One for Free Speech
(and indie bookstores)!

by Eric Wallenstein

In a decision that certainly has independent booksellers and free speech advocates rejoicing nationwide, The Colorado Supreme Court ruled on April 8 that Denver's Tattered Cover Book Store does not have to turn over customer records that had been requested by local law enforcement officials. The officials sought to use the information as evidence in a case involving the manufacture of methamphetamines.

Chris Finan, president of the American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression (ABFFE), said the decision "strongly affirms the fact that protecting the privacy of bookstore records is essential to preserve free speech." Of course, not only was the judgement a boon to free speech, but also a testament to the efforts of Tattered Cover, an (ahem) independent bookstore that spent two years working on the case. Our congratulations go out to Tattered Cover, ABFFE, and all of those who helped out in this campaign to protect customers' privacy in bookstores.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: DougR
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:00 AM

Geeze! For a lesson in paranoia, will you folks read this thread? Unbeliviable. Spaw's right, who gives a damn that you like Linguini instead of rigitoni? There must be something more pressing for you to worry about. How about those of you in the U. S. considering the coming election? The Democrats might continue to hold the majority in the Senate for example! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:15 AM

Well here is something ELSE to worry about. Here in the St. Louis "area" they have been talking about a small "chip" that can be implanted in your CHILD and could be used to LOCATE that child should he or she become LOST. Of course it could also be used to locate that GROWN UP CHILD later when telecrappers, the Social Security Administration, the FBI the CIA, Homeland Security or any number of other agencies and folks wnat to find you. The chilling thing here is the CHILD would have no say in this. The parents, scared silly by the seemingly growing rate of child stealings, would do this to keep their child safe. It could be removed later, of course. 18 year olds would have a new rite of passage to look forward to along with registering for the draft, being able to vote and being allowed to buy beer (in some states). "Hey dude, wanna come to my "taking out" party"? After a while some bright bulb would figure out a way to keep the device from being removed, making it alert the "authorities" should it be done any way. Brave New World anyone? Did you think Huxley, Herbert, and Orwell were just toying with interesting plot lines? Paranoid? It ain't paranoia when they are really after ya.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:26 AM

And, they already do it in pets...if you've go the means

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: leprechaun
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 10:11 AM

I hope my dog doesn't start buying truckloads of fertilizer.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 10:53 AM

My mother used to shop at what may be the same Safeway where Deckman shops. Many years ago Safeway was using printed paper grocery bags to promote some legislation that Mom opposed, so when she reached the clerk, she said "I won't use that grocery bag. Please find a plain one for me." It took about 10 minutes for the bag boy to return with the plain bags from the bowels of the building, but astonishingly the entire line stayed put. They packed Mom's groceries, and as she was leaving, she heard the guy behind her in line say "I don't want that bag either." In the next day or two they were back to plain bags.

MMario, I also regularly instruct bag people on how to properly load the sacks. They're so used to popping a single item into the thin plastic (that is liable to shred and drop it's contents) that they don't know how to plan ahead to pack paper bags properly. When they try the "one item per sack" routine it amounts to a heckuva lot of paper.

All of the big grocery stores down here in Texas have the cards, and have had for a while. I complained bitterly at first, but have since changed strategies. I still restrict my shopping at each store to things I know are actually cheapest. To skew the statistics, I regularly offer my card to the person behind me if they come through without one. The more bizarre their purchases, the better.
I regularly request paper bags instead of plastic, and when I remember, take along the cloth bags instead.

My aunt and cousins in Canada have some kind of purchase card that they present at member businesses. When I was in Calgary a few years ago I went to a sale at The Bay to pick up a couple of Hudson's Bay blankets for my children. My aunt presented her card with my purchase--it didn't affect my cost, but she has managed to parley this into air miles and flown quite a bit with it. Don't know what the program is, but it seems to work for her. The Canadian dollar certainly worked for me!

Finally, here are some approaches to junkmail that is generated by these databases. You'll find more (also phone lists and email lists) at Do-it-yourself: Stop junk mail, email and phone calls.

Bulk mail for "current resident or ...": Start with sending a postcard or letter to

DMA Mail Preference Service
PO Box 9008
Farmingdale NY 11735-9008

Write "please activate the mail preference service", and include the name, address, and zip code. You must send individual postcards -- for some strange reason the DMA does not officially accept listings for former residents, and will ignore requests that don't appear to be from a single individual.

First class and some bulk mail: If the former residents neglected to fill out a Post Office change of address card, or it expired, you can fill one out for them. You must fill out one card for each unique last name. Write "Moved, Left No Forwarding Address" as the new address. Sign your own name and write "Form filled in by current resident of the house, [Your Name], agent for the above". You must write "agent for the above". Hand this form directly to your carrier, if possible, as your carrier must approve the form and see that it gets entered into the post service National Change of Address (NCOA) database. This is very effective.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 11:21 AM

A rather toungue-in-cheek activity at geek-fest conference Extreme Computing 2002 had this description:

"Your supermarket loyalty card - it just sits there in your purse or
    wallet, silently recording everything you buy, occasionally rewarding
    you with just enough points and prizes to keep you taking it to the
    shops. But now it's your chance to get your own back - at EXTREME
    COMPUTING 2002, where you can swap your loyalty card with someone
    else's (cash in the points first if you must), and take on the brand
    new demographic profile of a complete stranger."

Er, yeeees. I hope they were aware that the demographic profiles would all amount to the same thing at such an event: young, single males buying convenience ready-made-meals-for-one.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:23 PM

Thanks, SRS, for the junk mail info!

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: MMario
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:30 PM

I don't care that they can profile my purchases - I care about the fact that the whole program adds up to more overhead and poorer service in the long run that costs MORE!!!!

Since the store can't figure out that they need to increase the amount of a brand they carry when it is out of stock 3 days a week - and the compeating brands have layers of dust on them, why pay for card readers and computerized profiling. they won't use it for the customers benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 04:17 PM

Way to go SRS! I've wanted to know how to do that for a while now!

Problem with technologies that can end up costing us our liberties is how they begin utilization. The dog chip thing seems great. Our local animal shelter scans every animal brought in and has an almost perfect rate of recovery for those pets with chips.

(Tattoos work this way also. Of course THAT makes me think of the camps of the Third Reich, which used tattooing extensively.)

But it is a short step to "chipping" your child, to "chipping" all of us. To being able to find a person no matter where they are.

Wasn't there a film recently where one's chip was also a dedicated "explosive" device which could terminate you should you comitt an offense?

(thread drift - back during the Gulf War our local supermarket still asked if you wanted "paper or plastic" I would answer: "That depends on whether I wish to save a tree or a Marine, doesn't it?"

It was rare that anyone "got" it.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 05:11 PM

I never carry my grocery store cards. I just enter a phone number on their keypad. And most of the time I use the phone number of a friend from another city. He and I have both given them that number, so sometimes when I use that number, the clerk addresses me as "Mrs. S." (his name) and sometimes as "Mrs. P" (my name). If they are using those card purchases to track folks' buying habits, they are really getting screwed up data from us.
I can easily use my parents' phone number when I visit them, and it would be easy to use lots of friends' phone numbers.

But recently I started to sign up for some sort of free web 'zine that had to do with music. It seemed like it would have valuable information. But in their application they wanted my date of birth and my name, in addition to phone numbers and email addresses. So I cancelled the application and sent them a pointed note about how offensive I thought it was to pretend to be a real 'zine when they probably just a front for collecting personal info. I cannot imagine any legitimate reason why a free 'zine would need my date of birth (which, of course, is often asked for as a "security" aid).

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 10:40 PM

I'm glad the junk mail information is useful. If you click on that link it takes you to places where you can register online for the mail preference service, but you have to pay $5 online. If you mail in a letter it's free. Same with all of those services.

I have been aware of this service for a long time, and have sent update letters every couple of years to remind them that I still don't want junk. But I don't keep a list of all of this stuff handy. A simple search at Google with the term "stop junk mail" (don't use quotes unless you want it to search an exact phrase) brought up several choices. If you are good at doing a search any of this stuff is easy to come by on your own. Another browser I like is Metacrawler.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 03:09 AM

I just wish my bloody bag would last till I get across the car park... then I might end up recycling a lot more!

LTS