BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: leprechaun
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 03:10 AM

The card hasn't made me paranoid. However, I do feel a twinge of apprehension when the clerk says, "Thank you Mr. M----." I find myself glancing around to see who else in the grocery store lines can hear. Most of the people in those drug gangs have never seen me, but almost all of them know my name. Many's the time I've finally caught up to one and they say, "I thought you'd be taller," or "I pictured you older."

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 11:33 AM

Genie, if you want verification for you latest opinion, go to Slate online today. There is a story of someone who got scammed into giving up his personal information via e-mail for a security check for a non-existent job. Now, he has had to go through the agonies of notification and cancellation on all of his public records and financial relationships. It is much safer to keep yourself private.

I was discussing EZPass [computerized billing for tolls] with the CFO of my company. He accused me of being a Luddite and pointed out that, since I have a cell phone, I could be traced, anyway. The cell phone can, however, be shut off. Even if you put your EZPass transponder in the handy leaded plastic package, it can be read.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: PeteBoom
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 12:32 PM

ROFLMAO!

Here's the deal folks - if you do not want grocers, or anyone else, to know who you are and be able to track your purchases - pay cash for everything. No checks. No credit cards. No ATM/Debit cards. Nothing. Zip. Nadda.

The nifty IBM 4690 series POS computers (cash registers) and their competitors, have the ability to retain all purchase activity from a store - including items purchased, date, time, lane, cashier that rang the transaction, any and all discounts that were applied, coupons - and tender method. If the tender type is check, credit card or debit card, that account information is electronically stored (although not all retailers save the check's account information, they can, its a simple user exit on the controller). Paranoid yet? Good. How do I know this? Its what I do for a living - drive computers for a large grocery retailer/wholesaler that also provides technical computer support for independent retailers.

I sent a guy to prison a couple of years ago by blasting his alibi to pieces. He was charged with armed robbery, said he couldn't have done it because he was with his girlfriend except when he went to a particular store and got X, Y and Z and "some other stuff". Too bad for him we retained that information for 2 years. Spun through all transactions where X, Y OR Z were sold on that day, within 5 hours either way of the crime. Then looked for comparisons (eg., Oops, I got X and Y but forgot Z....) Bad news. NO Z items were sold that day AT ALL. No X or Y items were sold within the same transaction, and no transactions occured where either one or the other were sold within 2 hours of each other. When the defendent's attorney found out that we could pull that information back, and he didn't have a defense, never mind the fact that the accused was not seen on the security camera tapes for that day at all... Don't like armed robbers....

If you Yanks don't want Microsoft or AOL or whatever ISP you use to know who you are (as opposed to who you claim to be) and where you go on the net, do NOT give them (or the store where you purchased your computer in some cases) your Social Security Number. FOr a while that was all the rage - still might be for all I know. "We need your SSN to to credit checks." Not True. Also, not legal. Driver's license, State ID, Home Phone number, credit card number... any of those gives any credit researcher worth its salt the information needed to make a 90% id of you. Any TWO of those and you've got 98%+. Odds are, they asked for (and got) all three.

If you want the discount, give them a bogus name and address, get the card and get your discount. If you want to get coupons or save points, give them your real address. Don't want their computers to link your bogus name with your real name? Pay cash every time you use the card - ALWAYS.

Have a day, folks -

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 12:36 PM

leprechaun, our grocery stores and even places like KMart started saying thank you, using my last name, whenever I paid with a personal check. I went round and round with them, as a woman shopping alone and safety issues, and they said they'd been told by their HQs that the clerks are to use people's last names, rather than just first, as a sign of respect! They didn't like it much better than I did, but with the company having mystery shoppers who check on them, they were bound to do so or risk a reprimand or loss of their job.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 01:19 PM

Pete, are you serious? I'll have to print out your reply for my son.

The bit about paying cash...that would work....BUT...

Say I want to profile the 20-something-year-old Middle Eastern men in my neighborhood (and we all know they are suspect...folks please know that this is tonque-in-cheek just for an example) I would pay a cashier a few bucks (wouldn't take much) to swipe the card that he/she saw the suspect in posession of in some kind of instrument which would record the "number," I wouldn't have to have a name, address, or phone number in the database. Then I could sell this information to "someone" who was interested for big bucks. Not too far fetched, not anymore than your statements above. And that's just one way to cast a broad net and link the database to actual persons. Like you stated, think of the possiblilties if you had a specific person you wanted to track.

And JohninKansas, you documented what I had suspected about prices. I think the store makes the most money by selling information (consumer research). Then if a regular card holder forgets their card (doesn't keep it on their keychain as recommended) say once a month, the money the store makes is phenomenal. (a twelve pack of coke is $2.50 with the card $3.79 without) My son's paper receipt is now several feet long for a one-item purchase because of all the messages about what he hasn't bought yet this year.

I just learned that it is against company policy for a Kroger employee to use another's card. Can actually get you fired with no defense from the union.

These stupid TV commercials have people bragging about how much money they save. Why if they spent enough at that store, they could be a millionaire. Like the lottery here in KY, "Somebody's gotta win, might as well be you." Sheesh!

Seriously though, when I started this dialog I was wondering why this bothered me when giving my SS number, etc. doesn't. I think it's just because I spend too much of my life at one store, and that's the only database that has that much info about me in one place.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Peg
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:35 AM

Pete; the point is, Radio Shack and other places ask for your name and phone number and other personal information at the point of sale regardless of whether you are paying cash or not!!! No need for this. I wonder how many people just hand it over without thinking...

It is true that paying cash leaves a smaller paper trail...

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 02:13 PM

If one of the folks in Radio Shack or Service Merchandise (but they're out of business now) asked for my phone number I always told them to put in 555-1212. The number for "Information" here in the states.

At the university where I work they use our SS# as id, but upon request, I can think up another number and they'll use it instead. I just have to remember what it is, once I do that. I've considered using an old id number from one of the colleges I attended ages back--chances are no one would figure out where I went to school 25 years ago and that this number was a part of one of those systems. But I still remember those numbers, which is handy.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 03:04 PM

At the airport here (Canadian city) a fairly large staff of US Customs and Immigration people check passengers, pre-board, bound for US destinations. Much of the travel is business-related.
In order to speed these passengers on their way, it has been proposed that frequent flyers register their retinal patterns at the airport. They would have their patterns read by the machine and be quickly passed through the boarding checks. There would be a fee for the service.
The airport authority is looking into the feasibility of the service.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: PeteBoom
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 10:39 AM

Peg, Re: Radio Shack. Allow me to introduce myself - I'm Edward Smith, my address is 1912 White Star, my telephone is 555-1212. If anyone looks at me funny, I leave the stuff and walk out. Period.

Mary - yup - perfectly serious. Ya know when you write a check at a grocery store? The times when they ask to see a driver's license, the write the number on the check - and then type it in to the cash register's keyboard - then they don't ask for your ID again? There's a reason...

Its not paranoid if they really are out to get ya!

Cheers -

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 12:14 PM

Radio Shack WILL back down...they don't need your address as much as they need your $$$$.

As to groceries...when local Safeway started this crap, I complained and the clerk said in a low voice."just give some other name...you can be Abe Lincoln if you want"
But our 'major' store here, Giant Foods, which is now owned by Royal Ahold of the Netherlands, finally made the system such that **ALL** specials are limited to those who have registered...you got no card, you get NO discount! I am working on finding different stores...and having worked my way thru college as a grocery checker, I am a good judge of them!

(By the way...I am the world's best grocery bagger, and can load paper bags SAFELY!..I used to teach it!) The plastic ones are impossible to 'arrange' neatly, so I take the re-usable mesh bags (and sometimes paper ones) and SHOW them how I want things done...and stand right there and do it over myself if they don't pack to suit me! The deal with paper bags is that they no longer can use the old-growth timber for making paper, so the fibers are shorter & weaker and the bags are not as strong as they were 30 years ago!)...but a little care, and they will work fine.

(And yes, CVS stores WILL use their own cards to give you discounts if you whine..*grin*...(so far, anyway)

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 09:40 AM

There must be somewhere where we can see what one of these databases looks like

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: leprechaun
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 10:54 AM

katlaughing - Maybe you should do like I do and carry a gun wherever you go.

oops.

Here we go again.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 10:55 AM

Yes, Guest, there's a lot to see. I did an advanced Google search on "databases" and "grocery store cards" and came up with the following. I'll call it

Paranoid as you want to be about "Loyalty Cards":

Some interesting sources:

NoCards.org

The Seattle Press

The Village Voice

Go here for more than you probably want to know about how these databases may be set up, here's some Database design info.

Visit this one for an abstract of a scholarly study.

A couple of scary articles:

When direct marketing consultant Mike DeCastro gets hired to plan a campaign pitching vacations in Mazatlan or cell phone service in San Diego, one of his first moves is to consult an online catalog of customer lists.

Such lists are the lubricant that keep the wheels of our consumer society spinning. If you applied for a loan or used a credit card, your name is on a list. They identify almost everyone who has attended school, subscribed to anything, or bought anything from a catalog, direct mail or online merchant.

Ultimately, such lists also provide the raw material used to build sophisticated computerized databases that have become a multibillion-dollar industry.

"Just about anything that you want to know about anybody is available in a commercial database," said DeCastro of San Francisco.

Most people don't have a clue that such databases compile information from a variety of sources, linking their names to their Social Security numbers, credit profiles, employment histories, travel records, court records, personal interests and chronic health conditions.

And now, under changes ordered by Attorney General John Ashcroft, the FBI is moving to use commercial databases in its efforts to prevent acts of terrorism in the United States.

The change was part of a broader decision, announced by the Justice Department May 30, to loosen the internal policies that guide federal terrorist investigations.

Now, even if they don't have a specific suspect or legal basis for suspicion, "FBI agents under the new guidelines are empowered to scour public sources for information on future terrorist threats," Ashcroft said. [snip] The rest of this is here.

Another scary story:

USA: Store Customer Cards a Source for FBI?

WASHINGTON -- So you have a secret craving for Little Debbie peanut butter bars and a penchant for Kendall-Jackson merlot?

While that customer loyalty card at the supermarket might perceivably save you a few pennies at the checkout counter, your buying habits could end up in the hands of government agents.

According to one privacy expert, at least one national grocery chain voluntarily handed over to the government records from its customer loyalty card database in the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

And others say customer databases -- including those culled from travel, financial and insurance industries -- are routinely shared with the government for surveillance purposes.

"I think this is exactly what the FBI wants to do and there really isn't any obstacle to them doing it anymore," charged Lee Tien, a policy analyst with the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

Thousands of supermarkets across the country have been offering loyalty cards to their customers for years. Some ask for basic information in their applications, like name, address and phone number. Others ask for more personal information, like Social Security numbers and e-mail addresses.

Each time the card is used, purchases are recorded in a massive database. In exchange, customers get discounts and special offers based on their buying preferences.

"It doesn't take a marketing genius to create an in-depth profile of someone that would be reasonably accurate just based on their purchasing history," said Donna Hoffman, a professor at Vanderbilt University and privacy expert with the campus' E-Lab.

"There has been a lot of discussion about profiling, but I think the concern over the government getting access to customer information is looming on the horizon," she added.

Larry Ponemon, CEO of the Privacy Council, said he was consulted for advice in January by an attorney for a national grocery chain, which in the wake of Sept. 11, had voluntarily delivered up its customer loyalty accounts to the federal government.

"It was not a malicious act, but it was more about feeling they had to do something to help the government look for the bad guys," said Ponemon, who could not reveal the name of the chain.

He said the attorney had since resigned from the chain and would not speak to the press. Despite his advice to the company, cardholders were never informed that their personal information had been shared with the government.

Noting that since the attacks a number of industries were persuaded to share their customer databases with law enforcement, Ponemon said he didn't know whether the practice continues. [snip] for the rest, click here.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 12:54 PM

thanks for those links, SRS---they serve to remind me of the most basic of rules:

"Being in business seems to bring people closer to the attitude that ANYTHING goes when $$$$ are involved...and the more $$$, the fewer compunctions they have!"

the same sort of rule seems to apply to love, sex, and national security. And it is the case that those who favor less freedom and MORE interlocked databases are the ones who work hardest to obtain positions of power in politics.

The trend is toward conservative, narrow, restrictive, controlling, intrusive...etc., policies and practices--all under the guise of 'security' and 'public interest' and 'ease of use'...............today, it is your name on a grocers list of who likes toothpaste "X", tomorrow, it is the FBIs ability to follow you from cradle to grave and find you anywhere and any time.

So far, there is no movement to install a GPS finder chip in each newborn...*wry grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Grab
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 08:53 PM

CoyoteBreath, you really have taken my breath away! "It's a short step from chipping a child to chipping us all"? You must have the longest legs known to man in that case, to make that a short step!

Back on cards: Sure, Tescos have a file on me, tracing what I buy. Know what? It means I get money-off coupons for things I like, like my favourite brand of crisps (chips to US folks :-) or chocolate muffins, and not for stuff like cat-food which would be no use at all. As far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing, bcos it saves me money. If you prefer to pay more for the same stuff, that's your prerogative, but please don't try to persuade me to do the same.

Security-wise, I see no problem at all. So someone could find my name from this? Big deal! Ppl can also find my name by checking on Mudcat, SourceForge, my EZBoard electronics forum, the Everyday Practical Electronics forum, etc. Or they could come up to me and ask, and I'd tell them. And if anyone can come up with a reason why I should be worried about someone knowing what food I like, I would be very interested to hear it. So far, the best argument I've heard for not signing up to store cards is "well, if you go out and hold up a bank and then say you were shopping instead, it might harm your defence"...

To get this in perspective, I suggest that you look at the Mudcat membership form which every single one of you, bar NONE, has filled in. Compulsory details are your full name and a valid email address. From the email address (for a suitably diligent searcher) can be found your IP address, which by tracing the ISP will show which area you live in. Optional but recommended details are your address and telephone number, so all that effort can be bypassed. "But we all trust Max, so it's different!" Obviously, but riddle me this - who do you think would cave the quickest to a lawsuit from some random individual, Max (who can't afford a top-flight lawyer) or a supermarket chain (which has a zillion lawyers at the press of a button)?

Please can people get their collective underwear unwedged?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 10:26 PM

My idea of a really offensive shopping ID card would be a Sam's Club card with Spaw's picture on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 11:16 PM

I changed my identity (email, etc.) to escape someone (my technician said someone probably at Mudcat) sending virus-carrying message daily for over a week. I will no longer sign up, but remain a guest. These "membership" lists are suspect because the site could be hacked into easily my particular strain of paranoia).
One side benefit was that the innumerable messages from a certain purveyor of books, cds, etc. also stopped. I once made a purchase from them, and regardless of requests, their spam kept coming.

My only objection to the ID cards is their quantity. Unless you are a homeless person, information about you and your finances is in the data banks anyway. One of the largest is in Atlanta; my bank in Canada uses data from them. If you report your income falsely on an application, they generally can find it out.

A service which I have used in genealogical work is to request the names, addresses and postal codes of everyone with a certain surname in the USA and/or Canada. Available on the internet from info sites. Only those with unlisted numbers are left off this file.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:29 AM

Try this:

1. Look up the store's street address (or the chain's headquarters);
2. Register under a fictious name (I like Thomas Malvolo Riddle) at the address you looked up;
3. Give them the telephone number of your local police station (the non-emergency one);
4. Don't give 'em your email address!

The clerks don't care....

For a real laugh, when you pay by check and they request a driver's license, tell them you don't drive or that the cops took it away after your last "driving under the influence" offense. Then smile and show it if you want the stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:52 AM

Q - thanks for the reminder about membership details.
I find that while I a pride myself on not being stupid enough to put my address on the windscreen of my car at a festival - I AM stupid enough to post details of when I'm away at festivals on a site where I have entered my address as part of membership details.
I know, I know, paranoia - but still it is a bit foolish.......

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Lemming
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:17 PM

I have over the years acquired several store cards. Most of these stay in my car. Come the winter they're great for scraping the ice off the windscreen.

As for the junk mail - take out and throw away anything that refers to you or your address. Wait until you get more junk mail with a return envelope. Put the first lot of junk mail into the envelope and post it.   
We're sure that lots of the banks want to hear about others "Super Deals" on loans, car insurance etc., so we'll just forward the details to them!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:43 PM

I do pretty much what Lemming does, except I use their own reply envelopes to send back a note asking to be removed from their list, after carefully crossing off all possible offers so they're sure I don't want to order anything. But that's a good idea, sending someone else's stuff back to them.

I produce publications for a university library, and after several years of suggesting we needed a reply envelope, I finally just went ahead and designed one, and have it inserted in each newsletter we produce. Since we don't send them out broadcast, but only to members of organizations on campus, they have a low annoyance factor. Every so often a cranky note comes back to take them off of our list (or to remove duplicates), but mostly they come back with money inside. It's wonderful (so there were no complaints about the expense of designing and producing them)! I have to be only *slightly* understanding of the person whose job it is to open those envelopes. One hopes they are in a position to forward their findings of the contents to someone in a position to care about it!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 04:51 AM

I have a Tesco clubcard, but it doesn't seem to work the way Grab's does. He says they send him money off vouchers for his favourite crisps. I find they use the profiling to try to sell me things I wouldn't otherwise buy from them.
e.g. If I buy a cheap instant coffee they will send me money off vouchers for expensive coffee to bring it down to a comparable price. Clearly their hope is that I will continue with the more expensive version even after the vouchers stop.

My favourite vouchers are sent out by The Daily Telegraph. They seem to compile a list from those who enter their competitions or crosswords. The vouchers represent a saving on the purchase of The Sunday Telegraph (which I would buy anyway) and the vouchers are idividually dated for a period of up to 3 months. As I have relatives who also get these vouchers (at different times) but don't read the Sunday Telegraph, I seem to have vouchers for use most of the year.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: PageOfCups
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 06:20 PM

SRS - what do you do when the Direct Mail Association doesn't honor your request to be taken off its lists? My mom's been dead a year now, and I'm still getting catalogs addressed to her. Many are new ones I've never seen before, so I know her address is still being sold to companies. I've even called some companies and asked for her name to be removed from their databases. The customer service reps express sympathy for my loss, promise no more mail will be sent to her, and they're STILL rolling in. I can't manage to convince these corporate eedjits that dead people don't buy stuff, and pissing off live people doesn't help their image.

And re: store cards - just bear in mind, if you're gonna murder your spouse and scatter rose petals over the body, don't let them scan your store card when you buy the roses. (Most recent news story on said crime)

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:12 PM

Page, my father died five years ago yesterday and I am still getting stuff in his name. Not so much as before--you might try moving a couple of times. That's what I did. You lose a lot of stuff that way! :-/

If you visit that first web site I posted, I think poking around will give you a series of nation-wide places that send stuff. There are lots of kinds of lists, like the ad circulars that come once a week, and there are the folks who hang stuff on doors, and then there are the credit bureau lists, etc. I do believe I wrote to each of the big three credit reporting agencies to report his death (and sent a photocopy of the death certificate) and that slowed it a lot. My sympathies on the continual reminders, though. I remember how jarring it was, especially on special days or anniversaries of things. The catalogs I liked that came in his name I finally just changed over to my own name. And that might be another answer--don't try to cancel it now, just change it. Then send the Direct Marketing stuff in for your own name.

Maggie

Subject: RE: BS: Offensive grocery ID cards - privacy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:48 AM

This was in the online version of today's Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Fort Worth is the where the corporate home for Radio Shack is.

SRS
________

RadioShack drops name, address query
By Andrea Ahles
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

RadioShack is dropping a long-standing practice that its chief executive acknowledges as annoying to customers.

The salespeople at RadioShack won't be asking for your name and address when you check out anymore. After 81 years of asking for that information, even for a purchase such as a pair of batteries, the Fort Worth consumer electronics retailer ended the practice Monday.

"We know that getting their names and addresses was annoying and time consuming, but we justified it because the information had some value to us," said Leonard Roberts, the company's chief executive.

RadioShack used the information to mail promotional fliers and its annual catalog, which it stopped publishing this year. The company also studied the data for consumer behavior and purchasing patterns.

Instead, customers can volunteer to add their names to a mailing list to receive updates on new products and sales. Signs at the 7,000 RadioShack stores across the country will tell customers of the new policy and provide a phone number, [phone], to call for adding their names to the list.

Several retailers collect ZIP code information to learn where customers live in relation to their stores. Others, including Linens 'n Things, Toys R Us, and Tuesday Morning, ask customers for phone numbers to maintain their mailing lists.

"Collecting information from your existing customer base is always the best way to go," said Christina Duffney, a spokeswoman at the Direct Marketing Association in New York. "But some customers may have felt that they had to give out their information [to RadioShack] and didn't have an option."

By changing its policy, RadioShack will be able to disseminate information to interested customers instead of to people who might not regularly shop at RadioShack.

But in some cases, Roberts said, the company will still ask for addresses. One example: when a RadioShack technician is dispatched to install a satellite TV system at a customer's home.

Roberts called the policy change a customer service decision.

"I got my e-mail flooded from customers, managers and associates saying 'Mr. Roberts, thank you. This is clearly the best decision that you've ever made,' " he said.