Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her

Subject: LYR: Leave her Johnny leave her.
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 28 Jul 97 - 01:14 PM

The first time that I heard this one was in Lionel Bart's musical "Maggie May" in the Sixties. Did anyone else see that?

Anyway, here's the way that I sing it...

Last night I heard the old man say
Leave her Johnny Leave Her
Go ashore and draw our pay
It's time for us to leave her

Chorus...
Leave her, leave her, leave her Johnny leave her
Go ashore and draw our pay
It's time for us to leave her

The work is hard and the wages low
Leave her Johnny Leave Her
I think it's time for us to go
It's time for us to leave her

Chorus...(as before, repeating the last line from the verse)

The seams are sprung the pumps is old...
Six feet of water in the hold

We shipped it green both night and day
She would neither wear nor stay

It's pump her bullies night and day
To help us get to Liverpool Bay

The rats have gone and we the crew
I think it's time that we left too

Subject: RE: LYR: Leave her Johnny leave her.
From: rich r
Date: 28 Jul 97 - 06:35 PM

Bert,

The database has 3 songs in that theme, two versions of Leave her Johnny and another set of lyrics Across the Western Ocean that fits the same tune. I'm sure there are other versions, because I learned one that was Leave Her, Laddie rather than Johnny.

rich r

Subject: RE: LYR: Leave her Johnny leave her.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jul 97 - 10:42 PM

Usually the last shanty to be sung, either when a ship was warping in through the locks or pumping out before leaving. Hugill belives ' Across The Rockies', followed by 'Across The Western Ocean' is the older of the versions. It's been sung at the pumps, brake-pumps, capstan & halyards depending on who collected it from whom. Shay mentions 2 packets, a brig 'Amelia Strong' & an English bark 'Amelia Packet' as a possibly to the orgin of the Amelia in the song. Colcord states that after sucking the bilges dry & leaving they would meet again as crew once more, at the shipping office, to be paid off, half already owing money & not far from shipping out again. Barry

Subject: RE: LYR: Leave her Johnny leave her.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 05:06 PM

This is the traditional closing song at the chantey sing at Hyde Street Pier in San Francisco. I'd like to add it to my repertoire, despite the fact that I can't sing it in San Francisco. I'm looking for a "definitive" version of the song, if such there be. This version in the DT looks pretty good - anybody know the source of the DT Version?

---

Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on this song:

Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her

DESCRIPTION: Shanty. Characteristic line: "Leave her, Johnny, leave her... And it's time for us to leave her." Tells of the troubles on the voyage and of what Johnny can hope for as the ship arrives in port. Some versions have a chorus
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1917 (Robinson)
KEYWORDS: shanty sailor separation return
FOUND IN: US(MA,MW,SW) Ireland Australia Canada(Mar)
REFERENCES (16 citations):
Doerflinger, pp. 89-90, "Time for Us to Leave Her (Leave Her, Johnny)" (1 text, 1 tune)
Walton/Grimm/Murdock, pp. 48-49, "Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her" (1 text, 1 tune)
Bone, pp. 135-136, "Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her" (1 text, 1 tune)
Colcord, pp. 119-121, "Leave Her, Johnny" (1 text, 1 tune)
Harlow, pp. 99-100, "Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her" (1 text, 1 tune)
Hugill, pp. 293-298, "Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her" (5 texts, 2 tunes) [AbEd, pp. 218-221]
Sharp-EFC, II-III, pp.3-4, "Leave Her Johnny" (2 texts, 2 tunes)
Shay-SeaSongs, pp. 86-87, "Time to Leave Her" (1 text, 1 tune)
Fahey-Eureka, pp. 46-47, "Leave Her, Jollies, Leave Her" (1 text, 1 tune)
Sandburg, p. 412, "Leave Her, Bullies, Leave Her" (2 texts, 1 tune; the "A" text, which is this song, is very short; the "B" text is "Across the Western Ocean")
Scott-BoA, pp. 135-137, "Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her" (1 text, 1 tune)
Greenway-AFP, p. 233, ("Leave Her, Johnny") (1 text)
SHenry H96, p. 96, "It's Time for Us to Leave Her" (1 text, 1 tune -- a fragment, short enough that it could be this or "Across the Western Ocean")
Silber-FSWB, p. 97, "Leave Her, Johnny" (1 text)
DT, LEAVEHER* LEAVHER2*
ADDITIONAL: Captain John Robinson, "Songs of the Chantey Man," a series published July-August 1917 in the periodical _The Bellman_ (Minneapolis, MN, 1906-1919). A fragment called "Tis Time for Us to Leave Her" is in Part 4, 8/4/1917.
Roud #354
RECORDINGS:
Leander Macumber, "Leave Her Johnny, Leave Her" (on NovaScotia1)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Across the Western Ocean" (floating lyrics; tune)
NOTES: According to Walton/Grimm/Murdock, this shanty was saved for the last duty of a voyage: Pumping out a ship after she reached port and was unloaded. Since the sailors wanted to get ashore, this was considered a particularly unpleasant task -- hence this song, about getting away from the work. - RBW
Last updated in version 2.4
File: Doe089

---

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2011 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 05:14 PM

Poster is 999

---

Leave Her, Johnny

[Roud 354 ; trad.]

In his book Shanties from the Seven Seas, Stan Hugill printed verses of Leave Her, Johnny as a halyard and as a pump shanty. He wrote:

And now we come to the 'Johnny' song that usually ended the voyage— Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her! Collectors give pumps and halyards alike as the job it was used for. Terry and Whall call it a hauling song; Miss Colcord and Doerflinger give it for pumps. I think they are all right. It was probably sung at halyards with two solos and refrains, and when a full chorus was added then it was used at the pumps and even capstan. I learnt it partly from my mother's father, and he always sang the full chorus, and partly from an old Irish sailor, who also used the final chorus. It probably came to life about the time of the Irish potato famine, in the forties, and was originally sung in the Western Ocean Packets in this fashion: …

The later version Leave Her, Johnnies or as some sang it Leave Her, Bullies was sometimes sung during the voyage—at the pumps—but its better-known function was that of airing grievances just prior to the completion of the voyage either when warping the vessel in through the locks or at the final spell of the pumps (in wooden ships) after the vessel had docked. Many unprintable stanzas were sung, directed at the afterguard, the grub, and the owners. Bullen writes that: "to sing it before the last day or so was almost tantamount to mutiny."

Bob Roberts sang Leave Her, Johnny in 1978 on his Topic LP Songs from the Sailing Barges. A.L. Lloyd laconically commented in the sleeve notes:

… As for the work-shanties Haul Away, Joe, Whiskey Johnny and Leave Her, Johnny, Bob converts them into lyrical social songs for the sake of their choruses.

Louis Killen recorded Leave Her, Johnny in 1997 for his CD A Seaman's Garland: Sailors, Ships & Chanteys Vol. 2, where he commented:

Of course, worksongs or chanteys were also a definitive part of the sailor's repertoire. The Black Ball Line (halyards), Goodbye, Fare Thee Well (capstan), and Leave Her, Johnny (pumps) need no description —their words of pride, longing, and hard work speak volumes.

Louis Killen also sang in the chorus of Dan Milner's version of Leave Her,Johnny on his 1998 CD Irish Ballads & Songs of the Sea.

Geoff Kaufman et al sang Leave Her, Johnny in 2001 at the 22nd Annual Sea Music Festival at Mystic Seaport.

And Lou Reed sang Leave Her, Johnny in 2006 on the anthology Rogue's Gallery: Pirate Ballads, Sea Songs & Chanteys.

Jon Boden learnt Leave Her, Johnny from Daniel Jacks at a Forest School camp when he was about 16 year old. He sang it as the Augst 23, 2010 entry of his A Folk Song a Day project. The words of his version can be found in the online FSC songbook.

Lyrics

Bob Roberts sings Leave Her, Johnny

Oh, times are bad and wages are low,
    Leave her, Johnny, leave her!
I dare say it's time for us to go,
    It's time for us to leave her!

For there's Liverpool Pat in his tarpaulin hat
And Yankee John the packet rat.

Oh, mahogany beef and weevil bread,
We wish old Leatherface was dead.

Oh, I pray that I shall never see
A hungry ship the likes of she.

Oh, don't you hear our old man say,
Tomorrow you will get your pay.

Oh, she would neither win nor wear,
She's parted all her running gear.

Louis Killen sings Leave Her, Johnny

Oh the times was hard and the wages low,
    Leave her, Johnny, leave her!
But now once more ashore we'll go,
    An' it's time for us to leave her!

Chorus (after each verse):
Leave her, Johnny, leave her!
Oh, leave her, Johnny, leave her!
For the voyage is done and the winds don't blow,
And it's time for us to leave her!
Oh I thought I heard the old man say,
Tomorrow ye will get your pay!

Oh the work was hard and the voyage was long,
The sea was high and the gales were strong.

Oh the wind was foul and the sea ran high,
She shipped it green and none went by.

Oh the wind was foul, all work, no pay,
To Liverpool docks from Frisco Bay.

We was made to pump all night and day,
And we half-dead had bugger-all to say.

We'd be better off in a nice clean gaol,
Will all night in and plenty of ale.

She's poverty-stricken and parish-rigged,
And the bloomin' crowd is fever-stricked.

Jon Boden sings Leave Her, Johnny

I thought I heard the old man say,
    Leave her, Johnny, leave her,
It's a long hard pull to the next pay day
    And it's time for us to leave her.

Chorus:
Leave her, Johnny, leave her,
Oh, leave her, Johnny, leave her;
It's a long hard pull to the next pay day
And it's time for us to leave her.
And the captain was bad but the mate was worse,
    Leave her, Johnny, leave her,
He could blow you down with a sigh and a curse
    And it's time for us to leave her.

Chorus:
Leave her, Johnny, leave her,
Oh, leave her, Johnny, leave her;
He could blow you down with a sigh and a curse
And it's time for us to leave her.
And the rats are all gone and we the crew,
Well, it's time, by Christ, that we went too.

And a dollar a day is a Jack Shite's pay
When it's pump all night and it's work all day

It was pump or drown, the old man said,
Or else, by Christ, we'll all be dead.




The above is from

http://www.informatik.uni- hamburg.de/~zierke/louis.killen/songs/leaveherjohnny.html

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 05:34 PM

Joe,

I don't have the text at hand to make a side by side comparison, but the DT text for this song has the unmistakeable marks of Stan Hugill, so it is probably either from _Shanties from the Seven Seas_, with or without a few changes from an individual who ultimately got it from there.

Hugill's version in SfSS would have been a composite, compiled and arranged out of verses he'd seen in print and, likely but not necessarily, some he'd learned in the oral tradition, and some he made up (or fine-tuned) for publication.

To get to Hugill's version, one has to go back over many many prior printed descriptions of this, which vary considerably, and deduce/speculate the sources. For practical performing purposes, probably just better to develop one's own version, since there is no "definitive" version whatsoever. I realize you used scare-quotes on "definitive", meaning you know the idea is problematic already. So here's one person's opinion that, I think, it is truly too problematic in this case to be a useful concept.

One approach, however, could be to survey the documented versions and maybe pick out the most commonly attested verses. Or, maybe, toss out the verses by "disreputable" sources? Perhaps if I and others have some time, we can trace out the sources, but that might be rather academic rather than practical.

OTOH, knowing what Jon Boden or Louise Killen have sung, IMO, doesn't tell us much so far as their version probably ultimately go back to a book or recording, that we could look at directly.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: RTim
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 05:39 PM

This was one of the first (folk) songs I ever sang in public - at the 1971 Christchurch Folk Festival in Hampshire. Nobody joined in - so I stopped singing it! I felt like s**t!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 05:42 PM

FWIW, first reference I have to the song is,

1884[Jan]        Unknown. "Minstrelsy on the Sea." _The New York Times_, 27 (Jan. 1884). pg. 10.

The song is reported to date from an earlier time, but this is just the early published reference I am seeing. Also, this is not taking into consideration the idea that "Across the Western Ocean" -- a very similar song but with a different chorus phrase, perhaps the song's "progenitor"-- is attested earlier.

Here is the excerpt from this 1884 source:

There is however, one shanty the words of which were very appropriate. This is rarely sung except by the crew of some sinking vessel who are about to abandon her. Those who have heard it under these circumstances say that it Is very touching. It begins as follows:

She's a gallant ship with a gallant crew,
Chorus.-Leave her, jollies, leave her.
She's a gallant ship. so's her Captain, too,
Chorus.-Oh! It's time for us to leave her.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 05:50 PM

Davis & Tozer then published the song in what might be considered the first collection (dedicated) of shanties.

1887[Aug]        Davis, J. and Ferris Tozer. _Sailor Songs or 'Chanties'._ London: Boosey & Co.

5. Leave Her, Johnnie [w/ score]

I thought I heard the skipper say
Leave her, Johnnie, leave her!
"Tomorrow you will get your pay,"
It's time for us to leave her.

The work was hard, the voyage was long,
The seas were high, the gales were strong,

The food was bad, the wages low,
But now ashore again we'll go,

The sails are furled, our work is done,
And now ashore we'll have our fun,


Just for interest's sake (not trying to prove anything), compare the first verse to verse in DT,

"O I thought I heard the old man say,
Tomorrow ye will get your pay!"

It was probably a common or "regulation" verse. The DT version is characteristic of Hugill in using "old man" instead of "skipper" and using "ye" instead of "you".

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 06:00 PM

The song didn't appear in the "early" references to chanties -- again, perhaps it wasn't yet in existence, or else known in the "Across the Western Ocean" form. Later on in the writing, it appears like crazy. It may be because the song got really popular to sing...OR the writers about chanties really loved the idea of it -- including the elegance of ending their collections/articles with it... and liked the mileage it gave as something that could be discussed with blurbs about how it was the "last" chantey sung on a voyage, etc.

Anyways, the next reference I'm turning up is in a source introduced by Lighter, a New Zealander newspaper:

1896[Aug.]        Unknown. "The 'Chanties' of Sailors." _The Matura Ensign_ (13 Aug. 1896).

And when the homeward voyage is over...the crew have to wash her down and pump her out....The particular chorus runs thus:

I've earned all my money, and I worn out my clothes,
Leave her, Johnnie! leave her!
Oh! shake her up and away we goes.
Leave her, Johnnie! leave her!
We'll shake her up from down below,
Leave her, Johnnie! leave her!
We've stuck to her through sun and snow,
Leave her, Johnnie! leave her!

This of all the chanties is sung with the most unanimity and cheeriness...

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 06:08 PM

1900[June]        Patterson, J.E. "Sailors' Work Songs." _Good Words_ 41(28) (June 1900): 391-397.

This is an article on chanties that takes the approach, perhaps for the first time, of presenting a sort of ideal sequence of how the songs might figure into a voyage -- an idea used much by later presenters. The excerpt on "Leave Her Johnny" is as follows.

Here, completing our voyage, we will—for variety's sake—suppose her to have been an unpleasant vessel, and warp her into dock while singing:

Leave her, Johnny, leave her,
(Chorus) Leave her Johnny! [Pull.]
Now we'll sing you a farewell song, 

Leave her, Johnny, leave her! [Pull.]

Leave her, Johnny leave her,
Leave her, Johnny!
Pack your bags and go on shore,
For it's time for you to leave her!

Leave her, Johnny, leave, her
Leave her, Johnny

For the grub was bad, and the wages low.
So it's time for you to leave her!

Leave her, Johnny, leave her,
Leave her, Johnny!
For the mate's a terror, and the "old man"'s worse.
So it's time for you to leave her!

So, that's 4 references to the song in the 19th century.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 06:17 PM

1902        Lubbock, A. Basil. _Round the Horn Before the Mast._ London: John Murray.

This source, referenced by Hugill, merely copies the verses from Davis & Tozer without credit.

***

1902 Luce, S. B. Naval Songs. Second edition, revised. New York: Wm. A. Pond & Co.

A revised edition of an earlier work, adds the song. Marked as a pumping chanty.

[w/ score]

Oh, the times are hard and the wages low,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her,
And there's six foot of water in the hold,
Oh, it's time for us to leave her.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 06:24 PM

1903        Stone, Herbert Lawrence. "The Reckoning: A Story of the Sea." Short Stories vol. 52 (Oct-Dec. 1903). Edited by Alfred Ludlow White. New York: The Current Literature Publishing Co.

This work of fiction looks to have borrowed Luce's (last post, above) one verse. Seems off because the men are working at the capstan, but the verse is more appropriate to pumping.

This Tam-o'-Shanter was anchored in the stream not far from the Vigilant, and as Captain Bradshaw was put aboard his own ship again, he could see her sixteen men gathered on the top-gallant forecastle, their bodies bent over the capstan bars as the cable was hove in. And the refrain of the chanty that arose therefrom and drifted across the narrow stretch of water to the listeners on the Vigilant, ran:

          —"Leave her, Johnny, leave her. 

Oh, there's six feet o' water in her lower hold, 

So leave her, Johnny, leave her."

***

1903        Whitmarsh, H. Phelps. "The Chantey-man." Harper's Monthly Magazine 106(632) (Jan. 1903): 319-

There are no chanteys more suggestive of the old-times wooden ships than those used at the pumps. Of these there are quite a number, some suited to the everyday work of clearing the bilges, and some adapted for more serious times. Where heavy weather has caused the vessel to leak more than usual, and the crew are weary from pumping, nothing could be more appropriate, doleful though it be, than "Leave her, Johnny, leave her":

Heave around the pump-bowls bright, 

Leave her, Johnny, leave her. 

There'll be no sleep for us to-night, 

It's time for us to leave her.

Heave around or we shall drown, 

Leave her, Johnny, leave her. 

Don't you feel her settling down? 

It's time for us to leave her.

The rats have gone, and we the crew,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her.
It's time, by , that we went too,
It's time for us to leave her.

I believe Hugill harvested lyrics from this for one of his presented versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 06:30 PM

1906        Hutchison, Percy Adams. "Sailors' Chanties." _The Journal of American Folklore_ 19(72) (Jan.-March 1906): 16-28.

Uses the version from Davis & Tozer.

***

1906        Lubbock, Basil. Jack Derringer: A Tale of Deep Water. London: John Murray.

Most of the chanties in this work can be easily traced to Davis & Tozer.

Jim hummed the famous chanty:

"Leave her, Johnny, leave her,
It's time for us to leave her."

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 06:40 PM

John Masefield said that he'd never heard a pumping shanty, so it is unclear where he got these lyrics from.

1906[Jan.] Masefield, John. "Sea-Songs." _Temple Bar_ (Jan. 1906): 56-80.

I have never heard a pumping chanty, though I have passed in all from a week to ten days of my life, from 170 to 240 hours, in pumping water out of a leaky wooden ship. I am told that the usual pumping chanty is the halliard chanty of "Leave her, Johnny, leave her," one of the most excellent of all chanties:

I thought I heard the skipper say,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her. 

You may go ashore and touch your pay.
   It's time for us to leave her. 

We'll go ashore and touch our chink,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her. 

Before we go we'll have a drink.
It's time for us to leave her.

***

1906[Oct.]        Masefield, John, ed. _A Sailor's Garland._ London: Macmillan.

Based on the above, one might be inclined to think that Masefield contrived the following--that is, unless he interviewed someone that he has not credited.

//
L'ENVOI— LEAVE HER JOHNNY 
   
(For Pumping And Halliards)

I Thought I heard the captain say,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her; 

You may go ashore and touch your pay,
It's time for us to leave her.

You may make her fast, and pack your gear,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her;
And leave her moored to the West Street Pier,
It's time for us to leave her.

The winds were foul, the work was hard,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her; 

From Liverpool Docks to Brooklyn Yard,
It's time for us to leave her.

She would neither steer, nor stay, nor wear,
   Leave her, Johnny, leave her;
She shipped it green and she made us swear,
It's time for us to leave her.

She would neither wear, nor steer, nor stay,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her;
Her running rigging carried away,
It's time for us to leave her.

The winds were foul, the trip was long,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her; 

Before we go we'll sing a song, 
   
It's time for us to leave her.

We'll sing, Oh, may we never be, 

Leave her, Johnny, leave her;
On a hungry ship the like of she, 
   
It's time for us to leave her.
//

The DT verse,

"The ship won't steer, or stay, or wear,
An' so us shellbacks learnt to swear."

could possibly ultimately derive from this, after a revision by Hugill.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 06:52 PM

Masefield's experience (or lack of) with the song suggests it may have gone out of common use by the time of his career, ca. 1891-1895. Here is someone with earlier experience.

1909        Williams, James H. "The Sailors' 'Chanties'." The Independent (8 July 1909):76-83.

Williams -- debatably -- is the first author in this chronological series to have had confirmed, direct experience with this song (Davis may have, too, but his work is problematic for me). William's period of experience was roughly 1875-1888. Unfortunately, he only mentions the chantey by title:

"Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her."

***

1913        "AYE, AYE, BLOW THE MAN DOWN!
Chanties of the Sailorman Aboard the Wind-Jammer." Northern Territory Times & Gazette (27 Feb. 1913).

This general article looks derivative of secondary sources. Probably not a unique attestation.

But there is no chantey that sounds more sweetly in the sailor's ears than:
 Leave her, Johnny. It is raised when the craft is getting into the home port and plenty of meaning the crew put into their singing when the chantey man strikes up:


I thought I heard the skipper say, 

Chorus: 
Leave her, Johnny, leave her. 

You may go. ashore and get your pay".

Chorus: 
It's time for us to leave her.


Jack's work lies afloat, his fun ashore, and, like everyone else he is right glad when the time for his enjoyment comes. And he says so emphatically. It may be that, as he sings,' '"The grub was bad and the wages low " therefore, it is no wonder he is pleased when "It's time for us to leave her."

All the lyrics include are verbatim matches to earlier published verses.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 07:08 PM

1913        Whall, W.B. Ships, Sea Songs and Shanties. Third edition, enlarged. Glasgow: James Brown & Sons.

Under the heading of, "Across the Western Ocean." Whall may have been the first author to voice the idea that "Leave Her" developed from "Western Ocean."

After giving the verses (and tune) he remembers to "Western Ocean," he gives two verses of what he calls the "more modern form." His wording suggests, to me, that it may not have been familiar to his sailing experience, but that in the time since then he has come to know it in these verses more recently, second hand.

O, the times are hard and the wages low,
Leave her, bullies, leave her;
I guess it's time for us to go,
It's time for us to leave her.

O, don't you hear our old man say,
Leave her, bullies, leave her
To-morrow you will get your pay,
It's time for us to leave her.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 07:57 PM

1914        Bullen, Frank. T. and W.F. Arnold._ Songs of Sea Labour._ London: Orpheus Music Publishing.

Bullen was a chantyman of the 1870s.

He gave just one verse, with score.

9. Leave Her Johnny.

Leave her Johnny and we'll work no-o more
Leave her Johnny, leave her!
Of pump or drown we've had full store;
Its time for us to leave her.

This work also include the note, oft repeated, that

To sing it before the last day or so on board was almost tantamount to mutiny, and was apt even at the latest date to be fiercely resented by Captain and Officers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 08:02 PM

The first of the true "field" versions is this.

1914        Sharp, Cecil J., A.G. Gilchrist, and Lucy R. Broadwood. "Sailors' Chanties." Journal of the Folk-Song Society 5(18):31-44.

Sung by Mr. Rapsey (age 58) in 1906. Collected by Cecil Sharp.

Leave Her, Johnny. [w/ score]

The times is hard and the wages low,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her;
The bread is hard and the beef is salt,
But it's time for us to leave her.

O the mill to the pump is our relief
I thought I hear our captain say.

Ten long months on salt beef all
O now I hear our captain say.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 08:10 PM

Next,

1914        Sharp, Cecil K. 1914. _English Folk-Chanteys._ London: Simpkin, Marshall, Hamilton, Kent & Co. Ltd.

Sharp mentioned that he thought this song had "hymn-tune characteristics."

//
2. Leave Her Johnny.

O the times are hard and the wages low;
Leave her Johnny leave her;
O the times are hard and the wages low,
It's time for us to leave her.

The bread is hard and the beef is salt,

O, a leaking ship and a harping crew,

Our mate he is a bully man,
He gives us all the best he can.

I've got no money, I've got no clothes,

O, my old mother she wrote to me

I will send you money, I will send you clothes.
//

Sharp filed this first version as a capstan chanty. It is attributed to John Short. Please note, however, that in this work Sharp says he might flesh out the presentations with verses from other informants, The "bread is hard" line may have come from Mr. Rapsey, above.

Sharp's second version, in this work, comes from Richard Perkins.

//
3. Leave Her Johnny.

The times are hard and the wages low,
Leave her Johnny leave her,
O the times are hard and the wages low,
It's time for us to leave her.
//

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 12:09 AM

1917        Robinson, Captain John. "Songs of the Chanty-Man: IV." The Bellman 23(577) (4 Aug. 1917): 123-128.

Robinson's sea experience spanned 1859-1909. His description of chanties is a quite genuine representation of his experience, though he did read some secondary sources about chanties, which I believe had a slight influence on *some* of his presentations -- but I see no reason to believe that was the case, here.

His version lacks a grand chorus. The chanty has been attested both with and without one, in the various sources. Basically, if used:

for halyards - would not likely have a grand chorus;
for pumps - could go either way;
for capstan - would likely have it.

"'Tis Time for Us to Leave Her" is a chanty that tells its own story. Often have I heard it as a Quebec drogher rolled into the roadstead, almost waterlogged.

'Tis Time for Us to Leave Her! [w/ score]

Two pound ten is a sailor's pay,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her,
To pump at night, and work all day,
'Tis time for us to leave her!
…

Two pounds ten is a sailor's pay, 

To pump at night and work all day.

The Bosun shouts, the pumps stand by, 

But we can never suck her dry."


I suspect the last verse was borrowed by Hugill (who read this article) and in that way found its way into the DT version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 12:13 AM

Robert W. Gordon's collected field recordings of chanteymen in California, c1922-23, contain at least 3 renditions of this song. Generally speaking, Gordon's informants were believed to have learned their stuff by the 1880s. I don't have access to these materials.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 12:22 AM

1924        Frothingham, Robert, ed. _Songs of the Sea and Sailors' Chanteys._ Boston: Houghton Mifflin.

Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her

Oh, the times are hard and the wages low,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her!
I'll pack my bag and go below;
It's time for us to leave her.

It's growl you may but go you must,
It matters not whether you're last or first,

I'm getting thin and growing sad,
Since first I joined this wooden-clad,

[There might be more verses. I am stealing a peek on-line, which doesn't give access to all pages.]

It looks like the 2nd verse was adapted by Hugill, and found its way into DT.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 12:29 AM

1926        Terry, Richard Runciman. _The Shanty Book, Part II._ London: J. Curwen & Sons.

Terry gave this item under halliard shanties:

"57. Time for us to leave her"

However, I am 1000s of miles away from my copy of this book. It would be great if someone were to post the lyrics and a sketch of Terry's notes on where he heard it.

Another I don't have is,

1927        Smith, Cicely Fox. _A Book of Shanties._ London: Methuen & Co.

"Leave Her Johnnie"

Seeking lyrics!

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 01:34 AM

Charley Noble must have that one. I left him a personal message. The song is listed in this thread. There's a tune, but the lyrics appear incomplete.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: stallion
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 04:07 AM

lol Tim, different song same effect, didn't sing on my own again for three years!

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 04:19 AM

This is my favourite shanty.
I heard hugill do it and I always use the extra chorus he gave.
I will give Samson's verses later today and his comments about the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 04:23 AM

The verses are interchangeable with Amelia Where You Bound To.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: doc.tom
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 04:49 AM

John Short gave it Cecil Sharp (in 1914) as a Capstan shanty & titled it Times Are Hard and Wages Low (but Sharp aften came up with 'different' titles). Sharp's notes read: "This chantey was usually sung when getting into port, the chantey-man seizing this opportunity to express the crew's dissatisfaction with the ship they were about to leave, which, Mr. Bullen says, was very often fully justified. Mr. Short's variant, which is the usual form of the air, is very similar to the versions printed by Bullen (No. 9) and Tozer (No. 5). [No. 3 is a variant.]."

Short's words were:
Times are hard and the wages low (x2)
My old mother she wrote to me (x2)
I've got no money and I've got no clothes (x2)
I will send you money I will send ou clothes (x2)
We'll leave her when we get on dock (x2)
O, a leaking ship and a carping crew (x2)

Short's version is on the Short Sharp Shanties vol.2 CD which is being released towards the end of this month - lead by Jeff Warner.

TomB

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 04:53 AM

1928        Mason, Capt. John. _Before the Mast in Sailing Ships._ Kirkwall: W. R. Mackintosh.

This incident of this song in this account occurred in early 1885. A British ship, coming from San Francisco, arrives in Liverpool. Pg. 118:

As we hove up anchor that afternoon we fairly made the Mersey ring with our chanteying. Cockney Bob started with "Leave her, Johnnie, leave her":

"I thought I heard our captain say,
       Leave her, Johnnie, leave her.
Come along and get your pay;
       Leave her, Johnnie, leave her.
"Times are hard and wages low,
       Leave her, Johnnie, leave her,
A hungry ship and a drunken crew;
       Leave her, Johnnie, leave her."
Etc., etc.


And later in the text, without any particular context, this set of lyrics is given (pg157):

"A leaky ship and a drunken skipper,
It is time for us to leave her;
Captain drinks whisky and rum…"

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 05:10 AM

That's great TomB, thanks for Sharp's manuscript version, which is purely Short's material. As in other cases, it looks indeed like, for his published collection, Sharp presented Short's version, but with the addition of (here) 2 more verses. One, I've already identified, came from a Mr. Rapsey. The other is "Our mate he is a bully man, He gives us all the best he can." I've yet to see where that one came from.

So far, in terms of any kind of consensus of common verses between the verses -- those that were documented or published before the Folk Revival -- I am seeing "I thought I heard our [captain] say/tomorrow you will get your pay" and "The times are hard and the wages low." The latter seems to be a "regulation" verse of sorts, and like Keith points out, it was shared with "Amelia..." ("Across the Western Ocean"). I would argue however that, for the most part, the verses are interchangeable with those of any classic chanty ;) Yet "Leave Her" does seems to have a typical theme to its verses (duh!), even if the exact wording and rhymes are not stable -- and that theme is not necessarily the same as "Across the Western Ocean."

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 05:37 AM

JM Carpenter's Collection has many instances of the song in recorded and or written format. Many different informants. These range from Edward Robinson, you might have learned it any time between 1846 and 1877, to George Simpson, who probably learned it around 1888 and 1889.

I find 7 samples in the collection, which were noted or recorded 1927-1929.

1. BOYLE, GEORGE

>LEAVE HER JOHNNY

Text file. Includes line:
"Leave her down in London town"


2. KING, STANTON

>LEAVE HER, JOHNNY, LEAVE HER [LEAVE HER JOHNNY]

Text, incl.: "Oh the times are hard and the wages low"

3. MIDDLETON, JOHN

LEAVE HER, JOHNNIE, LEAVE HER

Text: "O the times are hard and the wages low"
A recording also exists.

4. MURRAY, JACK

>LEAVE HER, JOHNNY,
Rec., containing 2 verses. Has the first verse.
"Oh the times are bad and the wages low". Second verse may start, "The grub was bad...."

5. PAGE, CAPTAIN MARK

Apparently there's a recording of the song. No further info.

6. ROBINSON,EDWARD

>LEAVE HER, JOHNNY

Text: "We'll pump her out and go on shore".
There's a recording, too.

7. SIMPSON, GEORGE

There's a recording.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 05:50 AM

1931        Carpenter, James M. "Life Before the Mast: A Chantey Log." _New York Times_ (19 July 1931).

One of the articles in which Carpenter presented his material. However, he doesn't attribute the verses to any particular informant. Many are ideal or composite versions, and he did use secondary sources, too. Here is what he gives for Leave Her, Johnny:

The work was hard, the voyage long,
Leave her, Johnnie, leave her!
The seas were high, the gales were strong,
It's time for us to leave her!

The skipper's name was Bully Brown,
If you looked at him, he would knock you down,

The first verse is more or less the same as one in Davis & Tozer's collection.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 05:58 AM

1938[1924?]         Colcord, Joanna C. _Songs of American Sailormen._ New York: Norton.

Includes the item. My book is in storage! Need to see these lyrics.

***

1924        Shay, Frank. _Iron Men and Wooden Ships._ New York: Doubleday, Page & Co.

Shay's verses come verbatim from Davis & Tozer's collection.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 06:13 AM

1931        Bone, Captain David W. _Capstan Bars._ Edinburgh: The Porpoise Press.

This one has the grand chorus.

Oh, th' times was hard an' th' wages low,
Leave 'er, Johnnie, leave 'er!
An' th' grub was bad an' th' gales did blow,
An' it's time for us t' leave 'er!

Leave 'er, Johnnie, leave 'er!
O-oh, leave 'er, Johnnie, leave 'er!
For th' voy'ge is done, an' th' gales can blow,
An' it's time for us t' leave 'er!

I thought I heard th' Old Man say,
Ye can go ashore an' take yer pay,

Oh, her stern was foul an' th' v'yage was long.
An' th' winds was bad, an' th' gales was strong.

An' we'll leave 'er tight an' we'll leave 'er trim.
An' heave th' hungry packet in.

Oh, leave 'er, Johnnie, leave 'er with a grin.
For there's many a worser we've sailed in.

An' now it's time t' say good-bye.
For th' old pierhead's a-drawin' nigh.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 06:23 AM

1951        Doerflinger, William Main. _Shantymen and Shantyboys: Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman._ Macmillan: New York.

Collected from Captain Patrick Tayluer. Born in Eastport, Maine, but spent a good deal of life in parts of British Empire. First went to sea circa 1885. American and British vessels.

//
Time For Us to Leave Her (Leave Her, Johnny)

Now, the time are hard and the wages low,
Leave her, Johnny, leave her!
Ah, the times are hard and the wages low,
It is time for us to leave her!

Oh, we'll leave her now and we'll leave her very soon.

Oh, no more cracker-hash and dandyfunk!

[etc. give us our pay, it's this old way, along to the Horn, left her for good -- I didn't note these all down exactly.]
//

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 06:32 AM

1962        Harlow, Frederick Pease. Chanteying Aboard American Ships. Barre, Mass.: Barre Publishing Co.

Ca, 1875-76. On clipper AKBAR, Boston > Australia, Java/ pumps.

Need these lyrics.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: doc.tom
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 07:39 AM

Here's Colcord:

"I thought I heard the old man say
You can go ashore and draw your pay

You may make her fast and pack your gear
And leave her moored to the West Street pier

The winds were foul and the wotk wa hard
From Liverpool docks the the Brooklyn yard

She would neither steer nor wear not stay
She shipped it green both night and day.

She shipped it green and she made us curse,-
The mate is devil anbd the old man worse

The winds were foul, the ship was slow
The grub was bad, the wages low

The winds were foul, the trip was long
But befroe we go we'll sing this song

We'll sing, oh, may we never be
On a hungry bitch the likes of she.

Another version:
Oh, the times are hard and the wages low;
I'll pack my bag and go below

It's growl you may, but go you must;
It matters not whether you're last or fust.

I'm getting thin and growing sad
Since first I joined this wooden-clad

I thought I heard the second mate say
"Just one more drag and then belay"

(Pumping version, sometimes used at sea.)
A dollar a day isa sailor's pay
To pump all night and work all day

The times are hard and the ship is old
And there's six feet of water in thehold

The bo'sun shouts, the pumps stand by,
But we can never suck her dry.

Oh, heave around the pump-bowls bright;
There'll be no sleep for us this night."

The first set feel a bit dubious to me. But it also strikes me that these earlier versions are not neccesarily 'last pumping shanty before discharge' - Perhaps it's another shanty that later became dedicated to a single time and function. I'll try to find the Chanteying Aboard American Ships version if I get the chance later today.

TomB

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 07:55 AM

John Sampson.
This is a farewell Shanty and was usually sung when mooring a ship or warping a ship alongside a pier, or into a dock. Sometimes it expressed the disgust of Jack for a hard ship, but more often there was a note of sadness in it, the sadness of parting mingled with the joy of approaching freedom with much hard earned money to spend, and an optimistic view of the future.

I thought i heard the old man say,
You may go ashore and get your pay.

You can make her fast and pack your gear,
And leave her moored 'longside the pier.

The times were hard and the passage long,
The seas were high and the gales were strong.

She would neither steer, nor stay, nor wear,
She shipped it green and made us swear.

The food was bad and the wages low,
But now ashore again we'll go.

The sails are furled and our work is done,
And now on shore we'll have our fun.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 10:04 AM

1927       Smith, Cicely Fox. A Book of Shanties. London: Methuen & Co, p. 74-75

"Leave Her Johnnie"
(Capstan Shanty)

Oh, the times are hard and the wages low--
Leave her, Johnnie, leave her!
And now ashore again we'll go --
It's time for us to leave her?

The grub was bad, the voyage long --
Leave her, Johnnie, leave her!
The seas were high, the gales were strong --
It's time for us to leave her?

She would not wear, she would not stay --
Leave her, Johnnie, leave her!
She shipped it green both night and day --
It's time for us to leave her?

She would not stay, she would not wear --
Leave her, Johnnie, leave her!
She shipped it green and she made us swear --
It's time for us to leave her?

The sails are furled, our work is done --
Leave her, Johnnie, leave her!
And now ashore we'll take a run --
It's time for us to leave her?

Notes by CFS:

When the packet rat references became out of date, the tune, being too good to be lost, survived with a new set of words as the familiar "Leave her, Johnnie, leave her!" which was generally sung at the capstan, and only at the end of the voyage.

Some writers take the disparaging references to the ship, the Old Man, the mates, the cook, the weather and the rate of pay very seriously. As a matter of fact, this shanty always strikes me as an excellent example of a through-going shellback "grouse." A sailorman of the old school was never happier than when he was enjoying a growl with a shipmate at "this sorry scheme of things." But it didn't follow in the least that he wouldn't extol the very ship he was abusing as a sort of Eden when she had become his "last ship."

My own notes:

C. Fox Smith also composed her own tribute to this traditional shanty, as in "Deadman's Bay" and this World War 1 poem:

Leave Her Johnnie

A hundred miles from the Longships Light –
Leave her, Johnnie, leave her! –
And blowing up for a dirty night –
And it's time for us to leave her!

Down by the head and settling fast –
Her name and number's up at last,
And it's time for us to leave her!

It isn't the sea she's sailed so long:
It isn't the wind that's used her wrong,
But it's time for us to leave her!

We've pumped her out with a right good will,
A day and a night, and she's sinking still,
And it's time for us to leave her!

She's smashed above and she's stove below,
And there's nothing to do but roll and go,
For it's time for us to leave her!

A hundred miles from the Longships Light –
Leave her, Johnnie, leave her! –
And blowing up for a dirty night –
It's time for us to leave her!

Notes:

From Rhymes of the Red Ensign, edited by Cicely Fox Smith, published by Hodder and Stoughton, London, UK, © 1919, p. 31; first published in The London Chronicle.

Here we have the old shellbacks singing an update of their old pumping shanty, as they pull away from their sinking steamer, which likely has struck a mine while nearing the English coast in World War 1.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 10:09 AM

Harlow:

Oh, pump her out from down below,
Oh, leave her, Johnny, leave her.
Oh, pump her out, and away we'll go,
For it's time for us to leave her.

Oh, the times are hard and the ship is old,
And the water's six feet in her hold.

The starboard pump is like the crew,
It's all worn out and will not do.

They made us pump all night and day,
And we half dead had naught to say.

The winds were foul, the sea was high;
We shipped them all and none went by.

She'd neither steer, nor stay or [sic] wear,
And so us sailors learned to swear.

We swore by note [sic] for want of more,
But now we're through we'll go ashore.

We'll pump her out, our best we'll try,
But we can never suck her dry.

The rats have gone and we, the crew.
It's time, by God, that we went too.


"Note" should doubtless be "rote."

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 05:45 PM

Thanks, guys! I knew we'd git 'er done!

Looking at Colcord's presentation (thanks, Tom), it reads like a map of previous, prominent print presentations, which she would have had access to.

My experience with Colcord's book is that, even if it was a shanty she heard in the field, she'd generally give just one or two verses that were "hers" and then follow them with verses sourced from books.

In this case, her verse is a/the regulation verse, so it's hard to say much of it. Not much reason to doubt she might have heard someone sing that. However, she immediately follows with 7 verses that are verbatim or paraphrased form of Masefield's presentation.

Her next version consists of the verses from Frothingham's book. And her last set is based in Whitmarsh and Robinson's writings.

So, what she did, rather than present the song as she knew it or as collected in the field, was to present what she knew of the song, based in her collating of prior writings.

I've not been comparing tunes much, and I don't know what to say about Colcord's tune in comparison with others. But lyrics-wise I can't see much that is original about it.


An aside: The writers about shanties in the 1920s seemed almost like they were "laundering" shanties. Much of the prior writing consisted either of stuff that was based in someone's experience (though perhaps sometimes mis-remembered) or field-collected texts by folklorists...*or* somewhat fanciful presentations that innocently contrived or altered texts to "spare" readers.

What the 1920s writers did was base their writing on a sense of authority (which, evidently was important at the time, with many "spurious adherents" joining the chantey revival)...authority derived from some family lineage or some experience of hearing *some* shanties from the lips of veteran sailors. This experience is not to be wholly discounted; certainly any kind of experience like that can give important insight. However, to correlate that experience with authority is questionable. Really, the writers were generally too young to have experienced chanties in their heyday. Yet, having that experience-cum-authority, they thought nothing of it to take the idea of a shanty they may have heard (say, "Leave Her, Johnny") and to take at face value any and all things they could *read* about it, to form their presentations -- perhaps even without any need to cite sources. After all, they knew the shanty -- some ideal of it -- was "out there"....as "folklore" it was considered an "anonymous" creation, and any details that had been attributed to it were fair game.

Fair game for performance, yes; for a historian or "trained" folklorist, no.

It was the hodge-podge presentations of these 1920s writers, mixing fact with hearsay and fiction, that would become available to the deluge of derivative writers, then revival performers that came after. The revival performers accepted them on their "authority" -- and because they had no other choice. The following writers accepted them because, maybe, it was just too hairy a task to unravel their "laundered" texts, without access to scattered 19th century references and other historical documents. By that time, all the writings seemed to "corroborate" the authenticity of one another.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 05:51 PM

To add to what I meant to say about "laundering" shanties:

If you look at the presentations of a given chantey before the 1920s, as we've done here, often you see little that is consistent between the documented versions. I couldn't see anything "definitive" about "Leave Her, Johnny" except for the regulation-type verses about "times hard/wages low" and the floater, "Thought I heard our captain say..." But once we enter the 1920s era, the texts start to look very similar.

Subject: LYR ADD: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her (Dave Van Ronk
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:39 AM

1959        Paul Clayton and the Foc'sle Singers. _Foc'sle Songs and Shanties._ Folkways. CD.

This must be one of the earliest non-field recordings of this chanty. I'd be happy to hear about any others from earlier or around the same time. I'd be curious to know, too, whether Stan Hugill may have felt some of the influence of this album when he was putting together his famous magnum opus.

This great performance of "Leave Her Johnny" is by David Van Ronk. Here are the lyrics. I've taken them from the liner notes, by Kenneth S. Goldstein. There is a possibility that some don't match what is actually sung. (I caught a couple errors in one verse already.)

Oh, times were hard and the wages low,
        Leave her, Johnny, leave her,
I guess it's time for us to go,
        It's time for us to leave her.

Beware these packet ships I say,
They'll steal your stores and your clothes away

There's Liverpool Pat with his tarpaulin hat,
And Yankee John, the packet rat,

She would not wear and she would not stay,
She shipped great seas both night and day,

It's rotten beef and weevily bread,
It was pump or drown the old man said,

The sails all furled, our work is done,
And now ashore we'll take our run,

Oh, what will us poor shellbacks do,
Our money's gone, no work to do,

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: doc.tom
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:57 AM

Gibb
I think there is another factor to your 'aside' above (with which I heartily concur)- that is the simple fact that these were published vesions and had to be publishable (and I don't mean bowdlerised that another whole can of worms) - they had to be 'complete' in some sense - and it's a problem we had to wrestle with in the Short Sharp Shanties CDs project (which is why I've tried to be so detailed on the web-pages). In 70 percent of the shanties Short sang to Sharp, he gave him only a verse or perhaps two or three, or a few odd lines. He even told Sharp, more thanm once it seems, that "you do put in what you've a mind to after that." - (i.e. it was improvised) Sharp, in fact, often published only the single verse or so (on those rare occasions when he does 'create' verses he gets it horribly wrong of course), but other publishers will have HAD to make up a full set - maybe from memory if they had actually worked in the trade, or else from second-hand sources.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 09:43 AM

The Clayton album is additionally problematical, IIRC, because the notes claim that the shanties came (at least in part) from singers field-recorded by the BBC.

I have no idea who those singers were, with the conceivable exception of Stanley Slade.

By the time the album was recorded, it is possible that Hugill had been taped by the BBC. But I'm just speculating about that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: meself
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 11:32 AM

Don't forget Stephen Daedelus in Ullysses, singing "Lever, Johnny, Lever".

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 03:15 PM

Then there's Johnny Lever
the old Bollywood comedic actor that I always think of when I sing this song!

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:00 PM

TomB, I understand what you mean, and I agree. Just brainstorming here, but I am suggesting, in addition, is that this issue was qualitatively different by the 1920s, when shanties had become a hot/popular item...and also contentious.

Part of the mix-up comes in the attempt to present history along with performance. The issue you're talking about -- the need for a full and satisfying set of verses -- applies to the need of performing. Sharp wasn't concerned with creating texts for performance. (Please don't misunderstand this to mean I think you shouldn't perform them -- just the opposite!) OK, maybe he *was,* sometimes, interested in performance -- I am no expert on all of Sharp's activities, and I'm mainly speaking about this specific case. What is mean is that, basically, he was collecting folklore for study. His English Folk-Chanteys collection was a weird animal in that it was meant to facilitate performance...and yet as I said, he created his versions in a way that based in direct observation. The verses he included to beef up the presentation all came from his field informants.

Though the need for a performance-ready version may be the same, I think there is a qualitative difference between this method and say, Colcord reading Masefield, taking his version without much criticism, and mixing it with her own. Consider, too, that Sharp would have admitted, "Look, I am no sailor -- I don't know this stuff. I can only present what I hear." Whereas a Colcord or Terry let's us feel "Look at my family nautical history and be impressed by my experiences with these sailors...Now, believe what I say!"

Davis & Tozer's book was clearly a song-book, for performance. It doesn't inspire lot's of confidence as history, and yet it wasn't trying to be. LA Smith's was an academic (though often poorly done) study -- not for performance. And the many early articles were for study, not performance. Again what I am saying is that I think there had been a more clear distinction of what was for performance and what was study. The "parlour" singers of shanties in the early 20th century were happy to sing without trying to study, without presenting history.

It seems like it was these folk's performances that were laughed at and inspired the 1920s writers to present their collections in a way that was wrapped up in the semblance of history. Problem was, they didn't do a great job. Instead of working with historical documents or doing rigorous fieldwork, they grabbed all the prior articles/books about shanties, read them, and basically rehashed their content with a bit of themselves mixed in.

Earlier writers, perhaps, simply didn't have all the verses to pick from, from which to make 'complete' sets. Which of the early authors really gave long sets? Well, Davis did, but he clearly made up new verses for publication. And then Masefield did. You guys probably know I have a chip on my shoulder against Masefield, because 1) Where does he get all these verses from when others are not writing many? 2) His presentation confounds fancy with anything useful he may have known. Perhaps due to this very factor -- the presence of "full" texts, it was Davis and Masefield's books that got most rehashed by other writers up to and into the 1920s. People weren't borrowing from Sharp or Bullen.

So all of a sudden you have all these books in the 1920s that have borrowed from the go-to collections, Davis' and Masefield's. They reconfigure the material, add their own insight when and if they can, and *their* books, full of "complete sets" become the new go-to books. They appeal to later readers in a way that the earlier collections can't, in that they present little blurbs of quasi-history book-ending the songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leave Her Johnny Leave Her
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:24 PM

Anyone got RR Terry's version? That would be an important link, missing. Important because Terry's collection was widely read and used as a basis for performances.

How does Stanley Slade and Co's version match up? Did it have much resemblance to the print versions of either Davis/Tozer or Terry?