Can the tone deaf learn to sing?

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Bernard
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:08 AM

Bloody 'ell, Paula, would 'Mr. Gee' be a little over sixty by now, first name Len? He was a mate of mine at Hopwood in the late 1960s!!

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:22 AM

Hi, Claire Bear

Your story about the dulcimer student who couldn't distinguish the D and A strings was interesting. A good example of someone who is truly 'tone deaf.'

As the article said more than once, such people do exist, but they are rare.

I am reminded of an article I once read about a couple who adopted a girl of 5 or 6 with handicaps. There was fear that she was mentally retarded, but the couple discovered that she could carry a tune. The had read that if she could, she was probably not retarded. So they adopted her, and she blossomed.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:42 AM

her is how you go about helping them, you teach them to learn to recognise intervals by association, for example the sound of a police car is an interval of a second,
a cuckoo is an interval down of a major third etcetc
then you find their vocal range, and with the aid of an instrument you get them to sing slowly different notes, you get them to sing a chromatic scale, and eventually all sorts of different intervals

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: autoharpbob
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:56 AM

But there are some who cannot recognise any interval as they cannot distinguish between them. These are the true tone deaf. I have met at least one person with this disability.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:12 AM

"Sigh. Nobody ever has argued that Jim."
Sigh. Yes they have - you included, in claiming that the basic standard for giving a floor spot to a singer was that "they should want to" and that refusing a singer a spot because they were unable to hold a tune was equivelent to 'turning them away'.
There are numerous examples on the relevant threads where people have claimed that the folk club should be a place to practice - learn to sing - read of a song sheet -....
As I said, one contributor went as far as to claim that good singing was a drawback because it put off the untalented.
SAY THAT NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN POSTED and if you have now changed your mind please say so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 12:17 PM

autoharp bob , they are extremely rare, most of the supposedly tone daef are not tone deaf at all, they just need help and tuition.
   i had a half brother who was a real room clearer, he frequently changed key during a song[ are you there Vic Smith ,you know who I mean] but he was not actually tone deaf, after having fiddle lessons, and some guidance about pitching and interval recognition, his singing improved in as much he was able to hold a tune, and did not change key during a song.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:21 PM

Round and round and round....

Jim Carroll

"Sigh. Nobody ever has argued that Jim."
Sigh. Yes they have - you included, in claiming that the basic standard for giving a floor spot to a singer was that "they should want to"

Sorry Jim, I can only take responsibility for what I actually said, not your interpretation of it. You seem to believe that anyone who wants to sing must, by definition, be incapable of doing so. That is not my experience.

Show me where I have argued "that singers should be encouraged to 'practice in public'; to go up before an audience without having masterered the basic techniques of holding a tune, and remembering, and to some degree, making sense of the words."

and that refusing a singer a spot because they were unable to hold a tune was equivelent to 'turning them away'.

Again, show me where I have ever said that.

There are numerous examples on the relevant threads where people have claimed that the folk club should be a place to practice - learn to sing - read of a song sheet -....

Then it shouldn't be difficult for you to find a few illustrative examples.

As I said, one contributor went as far as to claim that good singing was a drawback because it put off the untalented.

"one contributor". Right. Can't recall this one. Who was it? Were they an organiser? Can you produce the quote?

SAY THAT NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN POSTED

Oh, I expect it has. "I know it's true. I read it on Mudcat."

and if you have now changed your mind please say so.

Not in the slightest. We decide our policy from our direct experience of running a club, not from what we read on Mudcat and our policy is that we encourage everyone who wants to to sing or play. If from your experience of our club, you feel that this leads to a poor standard, please feel free, as I said elsewhere, to name the names of those you think should be taken aside and given tuition before being allowed back on.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:52 PM

Bryan,
It seem an act of sheer vindictive spite for you to inflict an argument that has been going on between us for (if feels to me) most of my lifetime.
In the years this has dragged on you have had adequate opportunity to point out where I have misunderstood you - you haven't.
As soon as I get time, I'll put up the titles of the relevant threads in the remote chance anybody is the slightest bit interested in them and wishes to make up their own mind on who said what when - or feel free to put them up yourself.
Until that time, I suggest you take your argument elsewhere and allow those who are interested in the subect in hand to get on with the discussion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: GUEST,Rochelle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:44 PM

No offense...but what's the point of singing-manipulation of your vocal chords to create a musical effect-if it's not in tune? It kind of defeats the purpose of singing, in my opinion.

I understand what you're getting at, I've enjoyed singers who focus on other things besides being perfectly in tune. Some singers have very gruff voices, but other qualities that catch my ear. Or sometimes the gruffness itself catches my ear, a good example of singing I enjoy that most everyone I know hates: Gerard Butler in Phantom of the Opera. I can't really explain what it was that I enjoyed about his singing performance, I guess the struggle to get over the gruffness was what I liked. There was something distorted and almost haunting about his tone, which is something else that intrigues my ear.

The thing though, is that even though his voice is not majestic and pure aka I guess what we know as "in tune," it was still technically in tune. Gerard Butler can use his voice to manipulate and reproduce musical sounds. There are actual people out there who just can't do this and it has nothing to do with the fact that they were trained incorrectly. Sometimes people just can't sing.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: paula t
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:53 PM

Hi Bernard,
I'm not sure what his first name was.It would be a wonderful coincidence if it was the same guy. He taught me at Bowker Vale primary school from 1967 to 1971 and was still there years later.He was a great teacher and I often wonder what happened to him.I think there used to be a picture of him on Bowker vale's Friends reunited site. I'll have a look.If I find out more I'll let you know.
Paula

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: GUEST,Margaret
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 04:16 PM

If this seems too OT to others (it feels very apropos to me, especially as I sing very badly but love to do it when I can't be overheard), please feel free to delete:

You Can't Keep Me From Singing
(Gordon MacDonald, Jr./tune: How Can I Keep From Singing?)

My life flows on, but something's wrong--I'm caught in consternation;
Whenever I begin to sing there's rising agitation.
My singing voice was not my choice, Fate brought it sweetly winging,
Since Fate's to blame, I now proclaim: you can't keep me from singing!

My voice is hoarse, but then, of course, a sweet smooth voice is boring.
And if a song be sad or long, I pep it up by roaring!
To sing on pitch is something which was not in my upbringing;
To sing off-key sounds fine to me, you can't keep me from singing!

If I sing just right I can incite a peaceful group to riot
Or offer me a handsome fee if only I'll be quiet!
But I don't bargain with a mob, though tar and feathers they're bringing,
Put down that noose and turn me loose you can't keep me from singing!

The birds have fled my neighborhood, their tiny eardrms shattered;
My neighbours, too, have said, "Adieu!", but it hasn't really mattered.
My daily mail brings threats of death and curses coarse and stinging,
I heed them not they're a tin-eared lot
and they can't keep me from singing!

Each living thing its song must sing, life sings to life in chorus;
Our song brings courage when we do not know what lies before us.
Our songs of freedom, love and hope down through the ages ringing--
Cold Death defy and that is why you can't keep me from singing!

(Dedicated to those of us who cannot sing but do anyway.)
No rights reserved. Lyrics may be reproduced on the side of a building, on novelty toilet paper or on any reasonably flat surface in between without compensation to the author; just sing the bloody song and get on with it.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:31 AM

Jim Carroll

Bryan,
It seem an act of sheer vindictive spite for you to inflict an argument that has been going on between us for (if feels to me) most of my lifetime.
In the years this has dragged on you have had adequate opportunity to point out where I have misunderstood you - you haven't.
As soon as I get time, I'll put up the titles of the relevant threads in the remote chance anybody is the slightest bit interested in them and wishes to make up their own mind on who said what when - or feel free to put them up yourself.
Until that time, I suggest you take your argument elsewhere and allow those who are interested in the subect in hand to get on with the discussion.

Jim, you took the opportunity of your little personal spat with Nick to launch another of your bilious attacks on UK folk clubs. I responded to what YOU had said. If by "take your argument elsewhere" you mean you wish to feel free to continue to make attacks on UK folk clubs and there organisers without contradiction, then no. And if you mean you wish to feel free to respond to challenges with personal abuse and attacks on your perceived (from Miltown Malbay) inadequacies of the Lewes Saturday Folk Club, then no.

It's in your hands, Jim. Stop doing it.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:54 AM

I remember one singer in a folk club in Somerset who was very vague about key and intervals when he first came to the club.
After a while he started to improve and we found out that he had taken up the guitar and was having lessons.
By the time he had progressed to the point where he was confident to bring the guitar along and use it to accompany himself (about 18 months late) no one would have accused him of being tone deaf.

On the other hand my friend who can't detect an octave gap has tried several instruments!

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 08:12 AM

"Jim, you took the opportunity of your little personal spat with Nick"
No personal spat with Nick - can't recall meeting him here before now - I was responding to his posting - since which, he appears to have gone awol.
Nor have I any argument with the Lewes Club, or any other club on the UK folk scene, except on the one issue - you chose to involve your club by claiming that your policy of encouraging non-singers to perform in public was club policy.
For me, the clubs are the public face of folk music; they should take the responsibility of presenting it at an acceptable level.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 10:03 AM

Jim Carroll

you chose to involve your club by claiming that your policy of encouraging non-singers to perform in public was club policy

There you go again. You know perfectly well I have never said anything of the sort. This is a pernicious attack on a well respected club.

I would love to be able to debate sensibly with you but when you resort to this sort of thing, it is impossible.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 10:29 AM

"Our entire systems of "western music scales" is based (partly by accident) on each tone in a chord being "in step" with harmonics of another tone of the scale. Once the learner has developed the ability to "feel" being in tune singing the same note as another singer, the same ability to find the "easiest tone production" in synch with a harmonic of another voice should be fairly easily developed with a reasonable amount of practice."

Possibly the problem lies at least partly in the use of equal-temperament instruments in school music lessons. The child sings a natural interval, but the teacher hears the note as being out of tune because it's not the ET equivalent, and condemns the child as "tone-deaf", when in fact it's the teacher's ear which has been trained out of natural scales, which non-keyboard instruments still use. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 10:49 AM

"There you go again. You know perfectly well I have never said anything of the sort. This is a pernicious attack on a well respected club."
YES YOU DID - I SUGGEST YOU READ THE RELEVANT THREADS.
You even said you had consukted them on the matter - all this is there in the threads
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 11:24 AM

Jim, show me where I said "encouraging non-singers to perform in public was club policy". Direct quote or grovelling apology.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:15 PM

You said - all that was necessary to purt up a singer in from of an audience was "that they should want to sing" whether they were able to or not.
I callenged you on this - you then said you had consulted your committee on this and that was club policy.
As I said, I'll trawl through the relevant threads when I have time, or you are welcome to do so yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: mauvepink
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:03 PM

Perhaps it's time to start a thread entitled "Can Jim and TheSnail learn" hear each other?

Can we get the thread back on topic please gentlemen and maybe try resolve this one in private? No disrespect but the thread had been going well amd I have found it very interesting to read peoples ideas and opinions

THank you :-)

mp

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 04:35 AM

"Can we get the thread back on topic please gentlemen"
Yes we certainly can - apologies.
Can the tone deaf learn to sing - probably not, but as I suggested earlier, I don't believe tone deafness to be a significant problem. Rather, I believe a major hurdle is having to overcome a prejudice instilled in us all from an early age by a musical heirarchy who advocate that the folk (natural) voice is ugly and folk song, primitive and non-creative - we were taught that unless we could emulate the clacissists we were bad singers.
In my experience in being part of singing workshops for several decades, anybody can sing if they are prepared to put the work in and if they are given the constructive assistance and advice. Some come to singing naturally, others, like me, have to put more time and effort into it, but all, or nearly all, are capable of becoming singers.
MacColl, Frankie Armstrong, and many others developed and used basic exercises to assist people to become singers; they're out there for people to avail themselves of should they need them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 07:22 AM

I've just read Stephen Fry's latest autobiographical tome in which he relates how he resorted to Hypnotism to get him through a comic sketch where he had to sing.
He claims that he still thinks of himself as tone-deaf, and Paul McCartney agrees with him!
However his tone-deafness stems from an incident at school where he was advised to mime and the hypnotism did work for the one occasion where he was told that after a cue sentence he would be able to sing in tune.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: mauvepink
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 08:31 AM

It seems the jury is still out on what tone deafness actually is and if it can be overcome. Neverless there have ben some insightful postings offering great hope for anyone who 'thinks' they cannot sings. It appears that most feel that singing can be taught and that practice can, and does, makes perfect.

Music in all forms is so rich. There is a vast depth of tunefulness and songs out there. So many singers have made it who, in many a way, have no conventional voice but nonetheless suit what they write/sing. Kris Kristofferson and Leonard Cohen are but two examples. They have fantastic voices, but many would say not in a conventional way. What they do do is sing in tune though. It appears from all that has been written here so far that what we accept from singers is that they should be able to sing in tune. Drifting too far outside of that remit will get censure.

Truly enjoying this thread...

mp

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 10:05 AM

Sorry mauvepink, I know it must be annoying. I can hear Jim all too clearly thank you; his silence would be welcome.

It seems I will have to let his latest disstortion of what I said go unchallenged.

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: autoharpbob
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 12:09 PM

Another who some claimed could not sing is Dylan of course. Like Kristofferson, Cohen - even Johnny Cash - he has his own style of singing, but if you listen he is in tune. And I think all of this was before AutoTune was invented. Isn't it a shame now that people rely on some electronic wizardry rather than doing it again and getting it right?

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 01:49 PM

autoharpbob... I think the examples you have cited open another can of worms...!

There are varying degrees, I think, of what people consider to be 'in tune' or 'off key' or 'out of tune'...

So when someone is labelled 'tone deaf' it may just be a matter of opinion rather than fact?

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 01:52 PM

When someone is given two notes to compare, asked which is the high note and which is the low note, and they give the wrong answer, they may simply not have been taught which is which...

We often make assumptions based upon our own experiences, do we not?

Subject: RE: Can the tone deaf learn to sing?
From: ClaireBear
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 03:09 PM

Bernard, that could certainly be true if there were cultural or semantic differences between the teacher and pupil that had not been considered, but I can assure you that was not the case with my student. She could not hear the pitch of a tone, or reproduce it vocally, at all...but she could memorize how to play a tune and do so with accuracy.