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Commitment and Success in NYC Folk
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Subject: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 13 Mar 02 - 03:16 PM I don't know if it is living in New York, the US or the world today, but commitment has become a dirty word. I have gone through some 20 something musicians in the past few years, and typical is the conversation today... "Look," says I, "I don't need this to be your only commitment, but I have to know I can count on you all to a certain degree in order to book the band, and pay yeas..." "When you get to the point that you are playing at the bottom line, then you can hire xyand z..." "Well, we aren't getting to the bottom line without some kind of commitment..." "stop saying we when it is you..." Well isn't that it folks? How the hell can a band get anywhere if the members don't see it as a job of work? One member once said a few months ago, "Look some bands hang together and work cooperatively ... like the Beatles, but that's rare!" Seems to me to be a good reason to hand together and work cooperatively. Well, so here we are again, in the waning days of Babylon, sitting in the nuclear cross hairs and trying to sing for my life, and getting no where, any New York musicians who play guitar and want to change the world with song, feel free to call. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: GUEST,Barbara in D.C. Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:55 PM Have you considered presenting yourself as a SOLO musician who performs with accompanists? That way you can develop a core of sidemen musicians who learn your material, and you can pick and choose among that group of regulars when you land a gig. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 13 Mar 02 - 06:49 PM Hi, Larry: Commitment? What's that? When my oldest son was a teenager, he'd take a part-time job just long enough to buy a scateboard, and then he'd quit. Until he "needed" something else and he'd get another part-time job and work just long enough to buy it before he'd quit. Fortunately, he's grown up. Not everyone does. Being in a group is hard wokr (as well as being an enormous amount of fun.) The rule of thumb is, the harder you work, the more fun it is. Unfortunately, once the initial rush of being in a group passes, as it does, then all the immediate-payoff folks dissapear, looking for the next rush. I've seen the cycle from initial excitement and hard work to the downward spiral of missed practices and gigs. The first two tenors I had in my gospel quartet burned out after about nine months and were encouraged to leave before the first year was up. The tneor in our group now has been with us three years, and will be with us as long as I keept thr group going, as will the other two guys. They come to practice and performaces when they're sick, when they're exhausted or when they're trying to stave off problems at work or at home. They give up paying jobs to sing in nursing homes where the only pay is the greatest.. lifting someone else up. They're always ready to help lug equipment, set it up, break it down, distribute fliers... all the work that goes into having a group. (I don't think they'd work out in your group, though.) Any Black Irish/Danish songs that you know?
Walt Michael did just what Barbara in D.C. suggested, and it worked for him. I suspect there were plenty of headaches and egos to deal with, even then. I think that the only one perfectly suited to lead a group was Job, and as far as I know, he always played solo.
Keep on keepin' on though, Larry. You've got something too good to let anyone pull down. Jerry
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 13 Mar 02 - 07:52 PM I've actually tried the pool approach, it is fine until there is a paying gig, suddunly there is no way to avoid haveing eight mouths to feed on stage and I have to spend a month on the street busking to pay the leaches. I am seriously considering this last gig my last, and the next step is a hack licence. I can't get my wife to move to a country where people think in terms of mutual respect and cooperation, the effing ME generation in the US has destroyed the place, and frankly, I haven't a reason on earth to live here. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: michaelr Date: 13 Mar 02 - 07:59 PM Larry - are you sure what you say is true for the whole country? After all, everyone knows that New York City sucks...;-) Consider moving to NorCal! Michael |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:05 PM I actualy liked North Carolina, far west, seemed there was music there, and folks working at it... but I supose you mean California. Could be. Then again, every now and then doesn't the ground open up and swallow your houses, dogs, and other neet stuff? New York is such a hard place to live in, because foriegn (mid western)landlords bought the place up and hiked rents to the point that every one is working until they die to get more into dept... but as I said, I can't get Genie to move, or I would be in Quebec playing at St. Patrick's Pub tommorrow - or Devizes at the Barge Inn... Cheers, Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:36 PM I gather New York is one of those places which, for some people, it's the only possible place in the world. And the rest of the world scratches its head and just can't understand.
A pool of players you play with socially, and you pick the ones you want as formal paid musicians when you get a gig, that seems fair enough. If others want to come along and play for free and for fun, that's fair enough too, if they don't hurt the sound.
I can't see how anyone should feel entitled to object to that, it's a fairly normal way to operate. If I was in New York I'd be honoured to be allowed to play with Larry, without any payment. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:50 PM A McGrath, that's why I'd move to England in a flash, if Genie would realize that we aren't even treading water here. I just sent a proposal over to another band that wanted to hire me, to put two bands together... I will keep you all posted, they live in the next state, it would mean a lot of busking to pay the train fare, but I noticed they seem to work somewhat together over there. Some of you may remember the band member who insisted I didn't pay her, six months after an event I clearly remember paying her for? Well, after she left the band, she gave me greif for not having her come down to play a paying gig in North Carolina! (me paying the band as it turned out) The gall is just too much. Ever wonder why you have heard of so few Irish bands coming out of New York? Cherish the Ladies is one of the few, and they really hang together, great folks. Well, whatever. Good luck all... Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Big Mick Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:10 PM Larry, my friend. You really need to learn to separate the business of making music from making music with friends. And remember, on the business side the old "feel bad" syndrome must subdue itself to the needs of the business. The very idea of you having to busk to pay some vultures is fucking ludicrous. Don't you see that you care about it more than they do. I have a rule ......... when I care about you more than you care about you, time for you to go. I think the original suggestion was the best. Anyone who left me over money and then came back and bitched when I didn't take them to a paying gig, I would simply not call back. Don't you see old friend? They see you as so desperate that they can take advantage of you and you will suck into it so deeply that you are willing to do what they wouldn't, namely go busk to pay them. Go solo and hire when you need a gig filled. And hire only what you need for the music. Putting eight people on stage when you need four is lunacy and very poor economic policy for you. If they weren't there for the struggle, to hell with them during the payday. Just one working stiffs opinion. I wish you were here, a cara, because you wouldn't need to worry about the guitar player. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:19 PM Isn't that the way most musicians - Jazz, Irish, whatever - have always worked? Jam together for fun - but when there's a paying gig, round up the people they want to play with on that specific occasion. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:21 PM Hi Mick... I actualy haven't and wouldn't call her back. See the problem is that most folks in New York are completely unreliable, and the session players aren't interested in doing gigs. I think the idea of a bunch from New Jersey may work out, if they go for the two band idea... Cheers again, Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:56 PM Hey, Larry: There's a kinda-old-time band up here in Connecticut, the Jackson Pike Skifflers that's been around forever. The nucleus is a husband and wife,and depending on who's available, there is a pool of another half a dozen musicians who join them. They've been steadily successful over the years... none of them try to make a living off the music. They've played in far more prestigious places in New York than I ever have... an outdoor concert series during the summer at the Lincoln Center, for example. I used to run a folk concert series... ran it in Stamford, CT for 27 years. I booked the Skifflers several times in different settings, and I don't think I ever booked the same group twice. But, they were always enjoyable.
Reading your posts makes my eyes water. I'm lucky in that we just have one instrument. It's been suggested that I add a bass player, keyboards, drum, etc. and sound like everyone else. But then, we'd have to carry around a full sound system, have someone to mix it, do one hour sound checks, worry about tuning and all the rest. That sounds suspiciously like work to me. Your CD sounds fine, and I'm sure that's what you hear in your head. I'm not sure what your options are, except maybe to boil your sound down into fewer instruments. But then, what do I know?
Have you ever considered giving it all up and just play harmonica?
Don't Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Phil Cooper Date: 14 Mar 02 - 01:38 AM It's hard to find other musicians with the same commitment level. I tried collaborating with several other musicians before I teamed up with Margaret. I do the booking work, but once we commit to a booking, we keep it. The last seven years, we've added a third member, and she also keeps the gigs she says she can do. My significant other has also tried several combinations where the other musicians didn't stick to agreed upon bookings. She was sometimes mad enough to chew nails, felt like people wanted her to be a sheep dog to get them to come to gigs, and felt frustrated in the process. I wish you the best of luck. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Janice in NJ Date: 14 Mar 02 - 06:34 AM Lorcan, here are two pieces of advice. First, listen to Big Mick and to Barbara. Go solo, and hire just as many back-up musicians as you need for a particular gig. Remember, a lot of us have heard the Sorcha Dorcha CD, and it's clear that Lorcan Otway is what it's all about, or at least almost all about. Why pay for eight musicians when all you need are a guitarist, a fiddler, and one female singer? Second, in the words of the great Bob Dylan, "Goodbye New York! Howdy East Orange!" (For those who don't know, East Orange is in New Jersey, close to New York and even closer to Newark.) Why pay Manhattan rent for a tenement slum walk-up, when for the same money or less you can live modern apartment that's twice the size in Edgewater, right across the river? You will still be close enough to the New York folk scene so you can bitch and moan to your heart's desire, but at the same time you will be connected, physically, culturally, and spiritually, to the mainland of North America. Our state motto: New Jersey -- don't let first impressions fool you. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 14 Mar 02 - 06:58 AM Hi gang, actualy, Janis postulated the exact minimum I concider for the band, if I can't put a fidler guitarist and me on stage, I have to cancil a booking, which to my mortification I have had to do enough times that I find it very hard to book. The idea is that for me to shift from whistle to pipes to vocals, I need an instrument such as the fiddle to cover the changes and keep a thick sound - and make the music which you hear on the CD. Live, three musicians give the sence of the music one hears on the CD. In fact, a lot of the CD, is just Mazz and me. But, when it gets to the point I can't depend on two other people, it is time for a change. Bunches of folks result from getting several folks to cover the fact that I can't get the simplest coment from ONE let alone three, then when they smell money, the whole pack begins to circle the carrion. What makes me sick about it, is folks who tell me they believe in the music and causes and still don't committ. Isn't that why this country is in the shape it's in folks? Yeah, I believe we should not take land from Indians, destroy the environment, kill Roma (Gypsies) Shoot Black folks, remember firefighters, be brave in the face of terror ... I just don't want to commit a day a week to practice to promote music to that end, or in fact do anything else but say I am behind you... guess what, you aren't. Well, I will let you all know if we hear from the band in New Jersey. I am completely ready to abondon New York, I think it is a city that has becomed damned. Unfortunately my wife wont consider it. Back to busking... Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Mar 02 - 08:33 PM I think you'd be wrong if you think this is just New York. I think it's a pretty widespread tendency among our kind of musicians to not want to be tied down. It can be irritating, if you've got something fixed and you get "I'm not too sure - remind me later". But it seems to go with the territory.
One fella I know like this, it got so the one who'd lined up the gig wouldn't even tell him where it was, in case he said he'd turn up, and then didn't get there on time. So he says "follow my car" and off they go in convoy. And then my friend only loses the car he'd been following at some traffic light, and never gets there at all... |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 14 Mar 02 - 08:47 PM Well McG and folks... just got an Email from the NJ band... they like the idea, and we will get together for a talk next week... I will keep ya posted! Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 15 Mar 02 - 09:10 AM I was musing on the Quaker concept of simplicity and the band... Commitment and responsibility to your band is not unlike commitment in marriage. For a marriage to succeed it takes work AND commitment. If one complicates one's life by chasing other girls around, it makes for such complications that one can't enjoy the simplicity of a committed marriage. What my present band mates want is to have an affair with this band, and leave me wondering if I am out in the cold on the next gig. Basically they want all the good that might come out of the band for free. SO, on to another pack of folks, hoping these guys will keep their vows. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 15 Mar 02 - 10:33 AM May you have a joyous wedding of the muses! Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Peg Date: 16 Mar 02 - 10:38 AM Forgive me for pointing this out, but you do seem to continue to have this problem, Larry (I only know because you post about it frequently on the Mudcat). And you seem to think it has everything to do with the other musicians, and nothing to do with you. Since this pattern keeps repeating, it might be a good opportuinity to do some soul searching about how you have been approaching the problem,and how you might change the way YOU are doing things...instead of waiting for others to change (they won't, most likely, and since they are mere acquaintances and not friends, most of 'em, it is not appropriate to ask them to) and also what you might be willing to settle for if your ideal situation/configuration continues to fail. Just a thought.
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:00 AM Larry, what you need is a really sharp girl singer in a sexy outfit to front the band. Maybe somebody like this! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Rick Fielding Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:00 AM Good point Peg. As much as I admire what you're trying to do Larry, this DOES seemto repeat itself a lot. I discovered (without a whole lot of soul-searching) many years ago, that I was a TERRIBLE band leader. I expected people to have first-rate anticipation skills on stage, I expected them to have the same commitment to music that I did, I expected them to dress appropriately, deal with customers and management in a way that did credit to the band, and in general....think like me. Some bandleaders get what they want, other don't. I often didn't. I found it really embarrasing to have to tell another adult NOT to get drunk during a show. A band member who shows up five minutes before a gig is ALWAYS gonna freak me out. Now, this makes me out to be some kind of perfect, disciplined musician, only asking for professionalism....but over the years I found out that some players thought I was sarcastic, would give them a dirty look if they made mistakes, and never took into account that they had OTHER lives (like raising children, and other family matters) while I had much more spare time to dedicate to music. A GOOD bandleader would have solved these problems, but as a lousy one, I encountered the same ones over and over again. I took stock, and realized that I either had to work solo, or choose people who had already demonstrated the disciplines that I wanted, while in other bands. Generally I hired folks on the basis of charisma, and sense of humour, where maybe a duller (personally) player would have done the job better on stage. NOW, I know all this, but I prefer being a part-timer and teaching in between gigs...so perhaps I learned it too late. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 16 Mar 02 - 12:00 PM Hi, Larry:
This morning, we had practice at my house. I don't think you've ever seen four more exhausted men. On top of having a half hour drive to get here, it was raining and foggy. Our tenor, Derrick, didn't get home until 4 this morning, but still dragged himself up here for a 9:30 practice. Frank and Joe were up at five, and here 45 minutes early. It took some strong coffee for us to wake up, let alone practice. But, they were all here. The previous two tenors in the group sound like they'd fit right in, in Sorcha Dorcha. I invited them to sing a couple of songs with us at our anniversary concert out of respect for them, but told them they'd have to come to two practices. I told them when the practices were.. every Tuesday night and Saturday morning and the said they'd "like to come." Neither showed up for any of the practices, but would still like to come to the anniversary, get up on stage and sing their leads unrehearsed. So what else is new? I told them I wouldn't ask them up.
I think that there's some good, loving advice on here, Larry. Obviously, Rick has had similar experiences. It's better to be upfront about what is expected, and then if people don't keep commitments, they've been warned, and you should feel no discomfort in throwing them off the ship. If they don't feel that much of a commitment, they won't really care. They've already proven that.
Now, nothing against New Jersey, because I worked in New Jersey at one point in my life and think it gets a bad rap. But, try to exert yourself and your expectations from the beginning. You have a better chance of making things work if you tell them what you expect, and don't let them slack off.
I hope this works for you. Better yet, I hope you are able to MAKE it work for you..
I take zero credit for what I have with my guys. The Lord sent 'em to me... |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 16 Mar 02 - 03:11 PM Hi Peg... well let me start with Spaw... Spaw old boy, I never wished to be blind before... Peg! Well, yes and no... see there are very few American Irish bands in New York which do more than cover successful Irish bands. It is easy to do that with a pickup band so it fits the no committment culture in New York. Most of the band members, I've noticed, (not all but the majority) have affairs, get divorced and don't commit in their lives generally. I, on the other hand, after a 25 year marrige, can speak to the success possible in commitment. On the good page... there is a band who have been together for a long time, are committed to each other, and want me to join them, but they don't write. In order to perform my music I need some degree of central possition, which I would not ask for in an existing band. SO Best possible world, Collin of Sixmilecross and I are creating two bands with very similar core members. BEst possible sinario, we both get hired for the same festival, and we get two paychecks for the same moving costs! I've known the fellow a long time and we both wished we could figure an araingement like this for a while, a good coop. SO hoping for the best. Basicly, I don't think the answer is for me to follow the lead of others in my band, none of whom have gotten much notice for their work, other than in my band. SO it is not like I have a swelled head, I just say, sure, I will follow, if you can show you've been able to do what I've done. I inclueded members work, tried everything, but the problem seems to have been New York is the center of the me generation. Cheers all... Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Peg Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:42 AM well, as I said it was just a thought. Good luck. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 17 Mar 02 - 04:01 PM Actually, as a mudcat fundraiser, I was concidering a soap opera challenge... for say each ten dollar pledge to Mudcat, I would tell another chapter in the history of SD memberships.... for example the member who didn't want to play a song about the murder of a Gypsy woman by a skin head gang unless she knew the other side of the story! That one is a real side splier, worth $10 to the cat, eh? Just think 23 stories at 10 bucks each! Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Peg Date: 17 Mar 02 - 07:06 PM How about if we pay the money to NOT hear the stories? :) |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:58 PM I think we have a bidding war here!!! Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:55 AM Better get some wigs and false beards Larry - we had a mini-festival the other year and a friend had got himself into just about every band playing. It got so people were saying "there he is again" as he lurched onto the stage each time.
You seem to have two separate problems here Larry - one is people fighting shy of political commitment in songs, anything that might put off the punters; the other is people resistant to musical and organisational commitment, to planning in advance and being good on timekeeping and that.
Getting both those types of commitment together isn't that easy. That's why the world is in the state it is. Not just New York either. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Janice in NJ Date: 19 Mar 02 - 07:09 AM I hope that InOBU understands that neither the universe nor this website revolves around him and his troubles. Having said that, let me say that I played the Sorcha Dorcha CD for a Saint Paddy's Night gathering of some of the colleens and it floored each and every one of them. They like to get together, bend an elbow, and sing the old rebel songs as much as the next gal, but they never knew there was stuff like this being written today, except perhaps by Tommy Sands. And even his songs pale by comparison. By the way, do you have Yvette's phone number? :-) |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:42 AM ??????????????????? & and yes, I do have Yvette's number. Cheers, Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:03 AM Let me see if I get your post Janice (and thanks for the complement to begin with...) I think the world revolves around me because I expect to find some musicians to brining you music about Yvette Michele, and should not use the board to promote said music ... which you compare to Tommy Sands. OK, how do you know about Tommy Sands, because commercial interests have sold you his work. I am brining it (free) to you ... through this folk board. Which sounds like folk to you? Two, who does the world revolve around? Well lets look say at Chere, some one asked for the racist words to the song she sings about G--- Tramps and Theieves... Chere who doesn't write her songs, whose every move is planned by others - who is promoted by a huge capitalist corporation ... that is what it is to have the world revolve around you, it is not pushing to get the story of people like Yvette who, at this moment is in a land being bombed for practice in order to make sure that when they bomb the REAL enemy (jeeze!) they will get it right. I am breaking my head against the wall so you and others, can, through folk music know that NATO is bombing Indian land, as I write this, as practice runs to bomb civilians in Afghanistan. I - for one, think that is something which at least two or three other musicians may commit. Give me a fucking break. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: GUEST,Barbara in D.C. Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:33 PM So we all know about Tommy Sands because the commercial interests have sold us his work. Granted. Otherwise Tommy would still be singing in second rate pubs begging for a wee bit of hush so people can hear his lyrics. That seems to be the circumstances InOBU finds himself today. The only thing I cannot figure out is if InOBU is frustrated because the commercial interests haven't yet discovered him? Or is he frustrated because he has, consciously or unconsciously, chosen not to be discovered by them? |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Peg Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:20 PM Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves as sung by Cher can hardly be called racist. It is sung in the first person, most famously by someone who grew up as a mixed-race child and who was painfully aware of it. The song seems to be speaking of how horrible it is to be treated in a prejudicial manner by those who would try to exploit the "gypsies, tramps and thieves" (this phrase refers to what the bigoted "people of the town" call the group the narrator/singer belongs to). |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:27 PM No Barbara... this post is about lack of commitment by band members in an america where committment to each other in every relationship is lacking... this is why there is so much divorce in this nation, for example... I don't give a damn if a big record company discovers my music or not... if you follow my posts, and those of folks like McGrath, we are trying to get traditional music a place to survive in a world that is more and more cracking down on busking and where there are fewer and fewer places to get paid to play anything but comercial music. I think it is great Tommy Sands is on a comercial lable, but that is not the point, Janice seems to think it is unseamly to talk about the trouble keeping a folk band together in NYC, well, funny enough, most of the positive advice comes from fellow working folk musicians. That's because they know where I am coming from with this. Peg... the police guide to racial profiling of Roma in the US, put together by the South Carolina police, and a quoted source used by the FBI is called Gypsies, Travllers and Thieves. Perhaps the song was not intended to be racist, however, I know a fair number of Pavees and Roma who frankly are not very fond of the song. Think about it, if the song were called Witches Psycotics and Crazies, you may not think it was about marginalised folks, but a strike at your faith? Try and cast the margin you live into the picture and you see the harm. BY the way, the popular halfwit will be in New York at the end of April, had to change his plans, so PM me and we will plan a get together with Ralphieboy. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:28 PM No Barbara... this post is about lack of commitment by band members in an america where committment to each other in every relationship is lacking... this is why there is so much divorce in this nation, for example... I don't give a damn if a big record company discovers my music or not... if you follow my posts, and those of folks like McGrath, we are trying to get traditional music a place to survive in a world that is more and more cracking down on busking and where there are fewer and fewer places to get paid to play anything but comercial music. I think it is great Tommy Sands is on a comercial lable, but that is not the point, Janice seems to think it is unseamly to talk about the trouble keeping a folk band together in NYC, well, funny enough, most of the positive advice comes from fellow working folk musicians. That's because they know where I am coming from with this. Peg... the police guide to racial profiling of Roma in the US, put together by the South Carolina police, and a quoted source used by the FBI is called Gypsies, Travllers and Thieves. Perhaps the song was not intended to be racist, however, I know a fair number of Pavees and Roma who frankly are not very fond of the song. Think about it, if the song were called Witches Psycotics and Crazies, you may not think it was about marginalised folks, but a strike at your faith? Try and cast the margin you live into the picture and you see the harm. BY the way, the popular halfwit will be in New York at the end of April, had to change his plans, so PM me and we will plan a get together with Ralphieboy. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM PS Sorry for the double post... the cat is working queerly today. Also, Janice... as to give me a break, I really am directing that at the folks who want to play serrious music with me, in a off handed and uncaring way. The reason my music is good, if it is, is because it is from the heart, I just can't seem to find anyone who playes it with me from the heart. It means alot to me that Kev McGrath DOES play my music with heart and committment. It is turning into a rough couple of days here, and I have a gig tonight which life is getting in the way of preparing for... CHeers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Janice in NJ Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:34 PM "Give me a f---ing break." So says Lorcan (InOBU), the Quaker. Is this how he speaks at Meeting? Is this how he addresses God? Or his Friends? Or just his fans? Has Lorcan been unmindful of the praise I have freely given him and his CD? I wonder whom he speaks to with less civility, his fans or his fellow band members. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:51 PM Hi Janice... did you miss the post just above this? As I say above, the fustration is directed at my band members who don't give half a fec about what we are doing. As to how we speak in meeting... a group of us were walking towards a peace vigil the other day, and one of us refered to the god damned traffic, I reminded him... "Thee should not take thy lords' name in vane, thee might think to say the Fucking traffic!" I am sorry about seeming to go off on you, but think about what you are saying here, you are saying that this forum is no place to promote one's music or discuss the challenges of working as a folk musician, and yet the only way you know of my work is through the same. If you find yourself at one of my gigs, I owe you a round. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 19 Mar 02 - 07:08 PM Bye the way, Janice... just a brief note of being a Friend. Many people have the funny notion that we are sort of church mouse pious... Now, we do try to live our beliefs, and we do try to carry over our traditions of worship into our daily lives. I do sometimes tell God, "give me a effing break!" though I can at the same time see God's love in horrible acts, live earthquakes and volcanos! What makes Quaker conversation is listening to each other. You seem not be be completely listening (or reading if you will). I am not only mindful of your praise, I began my comments with thanks for your praise. If you read carefully, you would see that folks state two reasons for leaving this band, one ... they don't wish to committ to playing with a band (after using this band as a free music school) or two, discomfort with performing meaningful music. No one has left the band saying that I speak abusivly to them, to my knowlege. If anyone says I abuse my band members, well, they are not being honest with you. All the best, Larry PS I have not felt called to ask to be given a effing break in meeting, but, I can not say that I could not emagine being so moved. But, than again, no Friend would say that they ever know what they may be called on to say in meeting... I will let you know if I ever find myself so called! Last mid week meeting, a large number of us began laughing histerically no mater how we tried not to laugh, so who knows! Cheers again, and again thanks for enjoying the music. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:46 PM Hi, Larry: Sorry you feel under such duress. As for band members not being comfortable singing some of the stronger songs that you write, you might give them credit for treating music with honesty. I wrote a song for my group that one member was uncomfortable with. He didn't feel that he could honestly sing it, because he didn't believe it. And good for him. I told him that I didn't want to pressure him to sing a song with a point of view he disagreed with, and said we'd do it without him. When he said that he wouldn't be comfortable if we did it without him and just excused him for that song, I understood how he felt. It would have been a public recognition that he was in opposition to the beliefs in the song. If you don't believe what you sing, you shouldn't sing it. You certainly know that, Larry.
As it turned out, we had a couple of long discussions about the song, and the person who refused to sing it became it's greatest champion. The song, in part, is:
Publicans, Harlots, beggars and thieves
Chorus:
"Didn't my Lord deliver Daniel?
the verse he had a problem with was:
Lutherans, Baptists, Catholics and Jews He felt that people would take offense at that verse until he thought about it, and realized that it is not offensive. Or at least not meant to be. 'Cept for Methodists, maybe (I had a beloved Uncle who was a Methodist Minister, and I were one too, for many years.)
People not wanting to sing something that you feel strongly about shouldn't be offensive to you, Larry. Any more than how you feel is offensive to me.
All the best, kid... Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Peg Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM Larry; I see your point about the Roma gypsies but that doesn't seem to be the exact group Cher's song is about! (Hard to tell without asking the songwriter). It seems to me the "people of the town" referred to these travelling folk as "gypsies" but they could easily be any old ethnic group, couldn't they? I really like the song, find it poignant and effective. And it demonizes the prejudiced townspeople, not the gypsies, so I don't understand why so-called gypsies have a problem with it...unless they simply have a problem with that word being used anywhere (which is, I suppose, understandable, but I was not aware it was always seen to be a pejorative term). Sorry but I do not "see the harm" in this one, personally..no more than I see why certain people who have never read "To Kill a Mockingbird" wish to ban it from being read in schools because it contains the "n" word...if anyone read the book they'd realize it denounces racism very powerfully... Anyway, good to hear Ralph is coming. I will be out of toen at a reunion the last weekend in April (26-28) but would love a chance to see him if I can work it out...hope to see him in the UK in June, too.
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 20 Mar 02 - 07:43 AM Hi Peg: We had a thread on Mudcat, can't remember the name, where we discussed songs which mention Roma. I mentioned and still say that it all is in the introduction. There are songs like the Riddle of the Rum, I would not sing, with out an explanitory intro. Roma hide so well in this nation that their population of over a million are often not noticed, hiding in plane sight. Many Roma are carney workers, have fortunetelling buisnesses etc. Jerry, I have no problem with someone walking over the politics of my music, which is ... in fact about the damage that apathy creates, after all there would have been no Hitler without the majority looking the other way. I never have twisted anyone's arm to sing in the face of their own apathy, but I do find the apathetic walk. What I find a bit worrysome is bandmembers who say the deeply believe in the music but can't committ, while committing to bands which play music with no social content, seems to me to be a little bit odd... for example last night we were offered a job as the house band in a major NY music pub... but my band mates tell me they will only committ week to week. Tell me, is this anyway to run a buisness??????? Cheers all, Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Suffet Date: 20 Mar 02 - 05:45 PM Larry, You're my friend and I'll stand by you, but maybe the time has come for you to take all the suggestions to go solo. You can still have a nucleus of musicians you can call upon to accomapny you, but you won't have to depend upon their level of commitment. With so many people telling you the same thing, please give it serious consideration. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Mar 02 - 07:21 PM Either that or maybe Rick's right, and you need a sheepdog to coax them into line, while you can concentrate on the words and the music.
And that "other side of the story" - even that might have had other ways of reading it. All kinds of reasons people get murdered, and the people who get blamed for it aren't always the ones who did it, so wanting to know more about it isn't a bad thing in a singer, as Jerry pointed out. Checking out the facts behind a song mean you can sing it with more strength and conviction.
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Mar 02 - 07:21 PM Thinking about Yvette's song reminded me of this one I found in a book I've got on my shelf called The Unwritten Song. It's an anthology of songs (without tunes) from oral cultures all over the world, gathered from all sorts of anthropological reports and so forth. This one is Inuit, from Canada. It's about surviving:
And I thought over again
My fears,
And yet, there is only |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:16 PM Excellent song, McGrath! Steve, I'd love to go solo, but unfortunatly I neither play the guitar or piano, and I find more than one acapella song by me puts an audience to sleep! I was offered to be the house band for a pub the other day, without a steady band, well, no steady work. Cheers all, Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: InOBU Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:17 PM McGrath, I generally agree with you about most things, but Blimey, if I can think of a justification for six skin head guys throwing a mother off a bridge! Cheers, Larry |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:39 PM The point was, I can understand someone wanting to check that that was what happened, and that, for example, it wasn't the local police finding a convenient group of scapegoats for something that had some other explanation. (Maybe one that reflected badly on them.)
And I'm not suggesting at all that the facts weren't as you have them in the song, or that your interpretation of the hesitation about the song in this case is wrong - just making the general point that wanting to ask questions about an atrocity makes sense.
For example, in Amadou, you mention the attempt by the killers to claim that he had been reaching for a gun. It's been proved that that was a lie. When I sing that song it is helpful to know that. |
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Subject: RE: Commitment and Success in NYC Folk From: Suffet Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:49 PM Maybe it's time to repost this song from last December? To be sung to the tune of The Star of the County Down: On Manhattan's isle, for too short a while, Amid all the hype and noise, There was once a band, that took its stand, As it sang of woes and joys. It sang its songs of rights and wrongs, Wherever an audience it found, Now that band is gone, may we carry on, As we tread on Sorcha Dorcha's ground. From the northern tip to the South Ferry slip, From the East Side to the West, Oh, we wish them well and a fond farewell, For they were New York's best! [New words by Stephen L. Suffet © 2001] |
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