Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?

Subject: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 02:35 PM

We get a number of people who drop in here at Mudcat only to advertise their recordings. Some Mudcatters politely encourage them, but most of us just ignore or insult the self-promoters.

To my mind, anybody who starts more than a couple of threads to promote his own CD, is most probably obnoxious. Trouble is, some people are overly sensitive about that, and they're reluctant to post anything about their own recordings.

So, anyhow, what's appropriate, and what's not?
What works, and what doesn't?

My impression is that most of us here are musicians. We may have varying levels of talent, but we expect other Mudcatters to treat us as colleagues, as fellow musicians - not as a market to advertise to. But if any of you shameless self-promoters want to send me a copy of your CD, I won't mind. If I like it, I might say something nice about it.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 02:40 PM

Yup. This is a forum for discussion, not advertising. On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with a member "in good standing" letting us share his/her accomplishments, so to speak, as long as it's not outright selling.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 02:52 PM

I am not sure where you draw the line. I have used the forum to promote my CD's, as well as those of others. I think the only criteria I apply is that one should be a member to start a thread promoting a CD. It certainly is fair game for an Art Thieme, Dan Milner, Jed Marum, Paul Mills, Rick Fielding, or any of the other regular Mudcatters to promote their CD's here.

Mick

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:05 PM

My impression is that most of us here are musicians.

My impression is the exact opposite.
Insert the word 'wannabee' before 'musicians'. :-)

Many talk the talk.
Few walk the walk ... around here.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:07 PM

See, Mick? That's the problem. You and Art and Dan and Jed and Seamus and others are reluctant to say anything about your recordings, and people want to know about them. When you record a CD, people want to see some information about it. A list of the tracks on the CD is a minimum - lyrics to songs and a discussion of the songs are certainly appropriate.

Then we get other "singer-songsmiths" here who want to talk about nothing BUT their own recordings. They'll start one for two threads a week (for several weeks) when they have a new recording, and they'll refresh each thread hourly. And they'll start a new thread for every damn gig they do. And the rest of us soon decide they're obnoxious, and most likely we'll attend one of their gigs when hell freezes over.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:11 PM

I have no objection at all to chronic Mudcatters ("chronic?" Yeah, that works) letting other Mudcatters know when they've come out with a CD, or that they will be performing in a particular area. Starting more than one thread about it would be a bit over the top, I would thin,. I do take a slightly jaundiced view of someone who is not, nor has ever been, or probably will ever be again, popping in to promote their CD.

Shucks. I'm still working on the book (personal reminiscences of the folk scene), but it won't be too long before it's finished. When I find a publisher for it and get a publication date (hope hope), I'd like to whoop about it a little bit.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:14 PM

I don't bother promoting or plugging my stuff here, because I was told a long time ago by a very respected and well-loved member, that my stuff "is way too sophisticated for Mudcat." When the 1st CD was released I was shocked that it sold 400 copies on another music forum, and a whopping 8 copies here. So why bother? My mentor was right.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:15 PM

I agree, Joe. That is why I think it ought to be limited to members. As a clone, when I see more than one thread on the same CD, I always combine them. There is a certain amount of validity to JP's post, and it isn't limited to GUEST's. One MC'er here drives me crazy with the incessant self promotion, and the product isn't that good. But I think that is the price you pay. One can tell the people with the appropriate intent. These folks will do all they can to promote others work, as well as their own.

I understand the frustration, Joe. But I am not sure, beyond judgement calls, how one could limit without cutting out the legitimate. I think you and I and the other elves simply have to continue to exercise judgement and take what heat we must.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:17 PM

Just to clarify ... I was shocked that it sold 400 copies. (Not shocked nor surprised) that it only sold 8 copies here.

(CD II will be coming out later this year and I'll contact those 8 people privately and give them dibbs.)

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:29 PM

OK, Justa, I suppose you're right. Many of us don't meet your definition of "musician." We make music because we like to make music, and we don't intend to sell what we sing.

But most of us here DO make music, whether you like our music or not. And don't get me started on THAT. I have a few choice things to say about people who think of themselves as "professional musicians" and of the rest of us as someting lesser. If some of those so-called professionals can tear themselves away from theig gigs and show up at a music gathering, it can be darn hard for us meeker folks to get a song in edgewise.

And yeah, we aren't a very good market. Most of us would rather make music, not listen to music made by others.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:32 PM

Joe
Do you feel the same about people like myself or otheers who have tried to promote the events happening at their folkclubs on Mudcat.

I am not an artist and have no intention of being but I sure did put a lot of hard work in to make my folkclub work and promote the artists who were appearing. Mudcat is one of my resources.

I personally see nothing wrong in people informing other people what
is going on in their world.

Us listeners of music enjoy knowing what is going on with you the artists.

I certainly use mudcat to keep informed about what is going on. I also like the good humoured banter that occurs within such threads.

Les Worrall

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:34 PM

Why not ask Breezy !

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:37 PM

Les, I think it's a matter of moderation and balance. If any one musician or any one club has more than a couple threads running at the same time, that's excessive. If nothing at all has been said about a gig or a CD, then something should be said.
The "What's On" and "Mudcatter CD" threads are good vehicles for this, but I haven't been able to find volunteers to maintain those PermaThreads - and I don't have time to do it myself. Come to think of it, maybe we can work us something more flexible than the "What's On" thread. If you have a club you want to promote, contact me, and I think we can set up a PermaThread for the club.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:41 PM

Yeah, there is validity to that, Joe. I am not a great player, but I make significant money performing, and I surround myself with great players. I consider myself a pro, if only based on money and popularity in the venues I perform in. But I am not in the league of many that I consider friends. Having said all that, I wouldn't miss the song swaps for anything. A true pro realizes that they often find the pearls in these settings. No less a performer/pro than Paul Mills told me he would rather sit with a bunch of folkies and swap songs than anything. If anyone would be justified in adopting an elitist attitude, it would be Paul. I count it as a point of pride that I count some of Canada's finest musicians as friends or acquaintances. I have never seen or heard any of them be anything but welcoming no matter the level the player was at.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:46 PM

So who are the culprits then?

Are you sure it is the artist or a friend of the artist?

I am not sure how things work in the US, but in the UK I have realised in my short time in the folkworld that there is a great big massive family approach here, where we are all get to know each other over time and remain friends. We therefore have a genuine interest in each other. I think that is wonderful.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: MurkeyChris
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:47 PM

Well from a different prospective, I do a radio show (okay, get it out the way: British folk, archived online, www.coolasfolk.co.uk) and would say that 99% of our listeners have discovered us via online messageboards. We have been accused, I think always with good humour, of shameless self-promotion, and I hope we don't annoy anyone. In our defence, we are two students doing everything for free with no budget for 'proper' promotion.

Chris

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:52 PM

Exactly right, Les - we're friends, not a market.

You may not call yourself a musician, but you certainly know a good deal about music - and people here generally respect you for that knowledge.

It's certainly appropriate to share information with friends - that's what we're here for. Marketing is another matter.

-Joe Offer-

Chris - I added your program to our Links page.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:58 PM

I don't usually use the Mudcatters CD's thread, as things get lost in the clutter. I don't see the problem with a separate thread to promote a new release or one of our performers websites. It is just when there are multiple threads on the same subject, or the thread is refreshed 15 times and there is no interest that is bothersome.

On the subject of folk clubs, my opinion is that a good way to proceed is too allow each club a thread to promote it's events. I don't care for multiple threads about the same place, but a sort of Permathread for each one would be great. Folk Clubs are the heart and soul of the folk community and absolutely should be promoted here, as should concerts.

Mick

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:03 PM

Chris
Yep I think that is in principle what I mean as well. There are lots of people in the world who are putting their life and soul into helping and promoting artists in whatever way they can, but don't have the budget to spend.
You keep on doing the shameless promotion, nobody else will do it for you.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:09 PM

Big Mick
If you are running a folkclub in a concert type environment, it is important that people know when various artists are on. Aftre all we don't like every artist that is appearing.
A Permathread only makes people aware of the club and I already have a website for that.
Les

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:16 PM

Sure, Les, I understand, but you can change the subject line with each post and name the artist. That way you accomplish the same thing. Good sauce is that we should never use more space than we need to.

Mick

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:16 PM

Oh incidentally, I don't have a problem with Breezy. That guy does a lot of good work for the folkworld and charity. He is a diamond geezer. He is also a very good adlib person and I personally enjoy his way of working. :-)
Keep it strong Breezy and hopefully I will get my club up and running again and we can get the banter going again :-)

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:17 PM

One thread per artist is a reasonable limit. It can be renewed and expanded when the news requires it. Why clutter the theads.

To be honest, though, I'd rather see folkies promoting their work than the kind of insipid driveling that passes as humor in some quarters, starting whole threads to make obscure references to words that might bring other words to mind if you knew what the effinghell the speaker was talking about, or using Mudcat threads to play tictactoe on line, or any of the similar stuff that graces our threads from the mental ward.

But that's just my opinion.

A

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:19 PM

How do you do that then Mick.
Are you saying that you can change the existing title of a thread to bring it up to date.
If so, how do you do it?
That would certainly be a good idea then, except for the fact that the thread begins to get too big and becomes slow and cumbersome over time, so people stop going onto it.
Les

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: hesperis
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:27 PM

Justa Picker - your music is really good. Maybe more people didn't buy your CD here because you didn't promote it? Or because you came into the forums thinking "nobody here is going to buy it" and made that a self-filfulling prophecy.

Most mudcatters haven't bought my CD either, and I certainly can't afford to buy CDs right now... I have quite a wishlist and your CD got put on it as soon as I heard about it! I'd have to sell 100 CDs before I could buy 1 though! :(

Maybe the other folk forum just has richer people than here.

What's wrong with letting people know that you have something available that they might like?

Definitely don't go over the top with promoting, but sheesh, we're mostly friends here and friends let friends know about great achievements in our lives, whether that friend can afford to join in on that achievement or not!

Subject: Les, look here.
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:28 PM

Les, this is the same thread we have been having the conversation in. Although this might not be the best solution, because it will change back at the next post. I wonder if maybe having Jeff do a bit of programming so that the clubs could start a thread with an expiration date that would let you folks promote your event with an automatic deletion date the day after the event.

Hmmmmm......

Mick

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:30 PM

Whoa, there, Justa! Too sophisticated? For whom? I've heard your stuff and you're one helluva guitarist. Anyone who's into good guitar playing can't help but like it.

Are you sure that the word really got around Mudcat? I've been here awhile (since fall of '99), and I don't recall seeing anything about a CD. I heard you when I blundered into your web site.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:33 PM

That's what I said in a message above, Les - I'd be glad to work up a PermaThread for your club - and you can edit it as you wish.

Just contact me.

What I would like to have is a number of PermaThreads, all indexed on one main thread. The top message could include the current calendar for the club, and subsequent messages can include details, discussion, etc. Outdated messages can be deleted or moved.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:37 PM

Don, there were several. here is one and here is another. I am sure Justa will be happy to sell you one. The playing is stellar. The only thing better than his CD's is watching him sit with pickers like Paul, Rick, and others live.

Mick

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: hesperis
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:38 PM

I saw a mention of his CD once before I think. Definitely wanted it.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:42 PM

Shameless self-promotion DOES work, though. It's opretty well a principle of PR and marketing that the more times you mention or get mentioned whatever it is you are pushing, the better your sales will be. Some people are just too darned decent, civilized and considerate to push themselves down others' throats. That's why God gave us advertising men.

A

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:43 PM

Okay, I stand corrected. Missed it, I guess.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:45 PM

Joe
I am with you now. It sounds good.
I still have to find a new location for Market Rasen Folk Club and then I will look forward to that.
I only have one event for my club, which I have had to move to another location. That is for Vin Garbutt on June the 3rd and I have moved it to the Festival Hall in Market Rasen. I would like to get that one on a permathread. Obviously I am hoping that Vin will be OK by that time.
Thanks
Les

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: MurkeyChris
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM

Thanks Joe and Villan.

This must prove a point - do a bit of shameless self promotion in the shameless self promotion thread and you get a link!

Cheers, Chris

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 05:14 PM

What I think--

One thread to say "I'm planning this and I'd appreciate some guidance. Here are my thoughts and concerns; please advise."

One thread later, to say "I have a couple of sample cuts I'd like people to comment on before I proceed with recording, and here's where you can hear them." Of course this could be done via PM, with the people who had posted to the above thread, but what the heck, let's all hear them.

One thread, again later, to say "I heard xxxx's new CD and damn, I like it!" ANd xxxx would post with info on how to get a copy. Hopefully this would coincide with xxxx putting a copy in the Auction.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:08 AM

There are some Mudcatters here who have put things on, and have had them ignored.
There are people here who forget that this IS a music forum, and that some musicians will treat it as such.
Those aren't the people, by the way, that talk about why or why not George Bush is an asshole, or start threads about commercials and spatulas.
I've been trying to promote myself everywhere (shamelessly or not), and I started posting some stuff here because I thought a "Folk Community" would be supportive...

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:41 AM

Yeah, Chris, I know it hurts to be ignored. I see threads that people start, and then the only posts you see in the thread are the originator refreshing the thread, hoping for a response, and a few brief remarks from people who try to be polite.

It does seem like Mudcatters will talk about anything, but some topics just are very hard to respond to - and self-promotion is a topic that doesn't generate a response. If you start a thread and say, Come look at my Website," or "I have a new CD out" - some people will look, but they won't have much to say unless your thread poses questions that generate discussion. It's not that people aren't supportive. If you mention your Website or CD in the course of discussing something else, that often works better.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 09:02 AM

I am always very fascinated to hear what Mudactters are bringing out in the way of CDs etc, If I see Big Mick has a new recording out, then I can PM and arrange a swap or buy one or whatever. Nothing shameless about telling people what we're up to now and then. As regards gig promotion, my personal attitude is not to, unless I am playing somewhere that I reckon is exceptionally interesting in some way: eg a social get-together, a chance to see a foreign guest who dosent turn up very often, An unusual collaboration, something like that..
   I suppose keepinh it in the club is the sort of principle, isnt it? If we know people to talk to about music(or the war in Iraq for that matter), it is interesting to hear what people record, or what sessions they are running, or when they are coming over to England, all that kind of stuff. I cant be bothered with loads of threads with people telling us about other peoples' touring schedules, though.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 09:18 AM

That reminds me Greg, did you get the CD I sent you? I am working hard to have a "NEW CD!!!" ready for distribution this summer. Uh oh, is this a shameless promotion, sorry.

Mike

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 10:13 AM

Shame on you Mike LOL :-)

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:03 AM

To be quite frank, I could do with somebody shamelessly self promoting themselves for a gig tonight. I'm at a bit of a loose end.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:23 PM

Joe, I really don't think it right and proper that people come on here to promote there gigs and CD's. That "harriWatts band" they keep doing it, bloody nuisances the pair of them. It can only get more intense; they're auditioning a bass player. Anyways Joe, this is all a sly ploy for you to increase your CD collection, which reminds me, harriWatts band have one for sale.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:29 PM

chris nightbird, keep going with that shameless promotion. one day I will come to america and catch one of your gigs...

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:34 PM

he he Sttaw Legend :-)
Have HarriWatts Band been naughty boys. Shame on them. Are thye blokes or birds ?
Fancy them trying to sell Joe a CD.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: hesperis
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 03:17 PM

ShameLESS promotion works quite well. ShameFUL promotion (either being embarrassed of promoting your work or of promoting it TOO much) really doesn't: either people don't hear about you or they hear too much and get turned off.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 03:48 PM

Does promoting your club really count as SSP? I know it's probably not the same in the US but here in the UK certain clubs (like Gainsborough, Market Rasen, Barrow-sans-Hyphens, Breezy's 'Spotlight Club' in St. Albans) have substantial numbers of 'Catters in their memberships, so it's pretty understandable that organisers use the 'Cat to drum up custom - this is a music forum and they're music clubs n'est ce pas?

People like Sooz, Villan, Bloke and Breezy work long and hard promoting folk music over here - they have their own styles and methods, what works for one may not work for another, but their contribution to the folk music scene can't be underestimated. Are we so niggardly we can't allow them a little space and the oxygen of publicity here? I'd far sooner hear who's on at the Spotlight or the next Barton Big Session than read endless BS about Bush's asshole, Shatner, Eye-Rack, spatulas, rutabaga (whatever the feck that is!) etc. etc.

S:0)

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 03:50 PM

Nout wrong with it in the right place at the right time IMHO. Breezy became a pain in the arse by not realising that.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 03:54 PM

Not a pain in the arse for me. And the old adage applies to SSP threads just the same as any other - don't read them if you don't like them!

Me? I love 'em! :0)

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 03:57 PM

There's nothing wrong with advertising and this place IS a market. A direct market. That's Marketing 101.

Promoting oneself as Chris Nightbird has done is not shameless.

It's up to the reader of the advertisement to make up his own mind if he is interested or not.

I treat these promotions as I would any other advertising. I either pursue it or throw it out.

Subject: RE: Shameless Self-Promotion - does it work?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 04:08 PM

Agreed SJ and Martin. But Breezy's 'hi jacking' of any thread going made him hard to avoid. Like I said there is a time and a place.