Paying to audition - is this normal?

Subject: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Marion
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:14 PM

Hello all.

Somebody who is a active figure in the local pub open mike scene is organizing a TV special to air on a local cable station - sort of a showcase of the area's open mike denizens.

It costs $20 to audition to be on the show, which I'm a little surprised at. Maybe it's to help pay for the production costs, but then wouldn't it be more fair to just ask the people who get in to contribute? Or maybe it's to make sure only "serious" musicians audition.

I'm not asking your advice on whether I should audition - I've already decided, for other reasons, not to - but I would like to know if an audition fee is normal in your experience or if you'd see it as a warning light (sort of like paying to get your poem in some anthology).

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:17 PM

........or to have your nob waxed.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:33 PM

Sounds a bit of a scam!!

Kris

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:35 PM

Can't say as I've ever heard of this one.

Steve

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Gary T
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:15 PM

I'm not familiar with how this would normally be done, but it smells fishy to me. I assume there's no compensation for appearing in the TV production, so I see it as paying for the privilege of being considered for the opportunity to play for free. Being on a local cable station isn't quite the same break as getting on the Tonight Show.

Oh, by the way, I'm accepting application fees from anyone who's interested in doing volunteer work. Just send me the money, I'll let you know if any openings arise.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: SeanM
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:28 PM

Big ol' warning light on that one.

Any time I've ever heard of having to pay for an audition, placement, agency fees or what have you - it's a scam. A few locations have managed to institutionalize the scam as "pay to play", but just to AUDITION?

Run. Very far. Very fast.

M

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:33 PM

Absolutely not!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM

There's one booking agent around these parts who charges a $10 audition/tape listening fee. He's also the same agent who wanted me to do an afternoon of Irish music in a club with a mechanical bull. In the 20+ years I've known him he's come up with four gigs -- two good ones, a freebie, and one from Hell, not counting the Bull.

Good songs to all -- Tom

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:44 PM

It seems to me that the people who are good enough to play these places would take a great big pass on this one and play places that aren't run by scam artists. This would leave the ones who haven't been good enough to make the cut to pay the $20. Chances are, they would then be told that they weren't good enough even after paying their $20. I hate scammers.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:48 PM

Paying to audition, eh? Sounds phishy to me.
Jim

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:56 PM

Well, it's about time. This is an idea whose time has come. Just great. Sure, any time they get an idea as good as this one, I'll sign up immediately. I'll let 'em pay me to audition any old time they want to.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:01 PM

Marion,

Sounds like a scam--pure and simple--Reminds me of something I ran into years ago--I drove a friend, an aspiring dancer, to one of these auditions--there were beauty pagent runnerups and tap-dancing children, aspiring nightclub singers, and graduates of every sort of voice and dance and talent school--many with clip books, publicity photos, press kits, and, age appropriate stage-mothers--Everybody was glad to tell you how talented they(or their children) were, how they had cheated out of opportunities in rigged talent shows, in biased auditions, by a show business industry that was afraid of real talent---

The promoters were amazed by the talent--on occasion, they stopped the auditions to renew their pledge to force the entertainment industry to take notice of the wonderful and gifted performers who had turned out for the audtions--After hours of sitting, each performer (and, where appropriate, their family representative) was taken into the back, praised to the heavens, given the opportunity of a lifetime and warned that their were many jealous individuals who would fight to keep them from success--My friend, mercifully, was too broke to play the game, but most of the people who came in with us signed up-- and the audition fees were just the beginning!

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:13 PM

I'm with Art on this one! Sign up now. To hell with just music, how 'bout paying for my opinions......on anything. Lets see now, how 'bout:

Baseball....$5

Politics....$5

F chords....$6

Organized Religion...$2

Paying to audition....well, let's negotiate.

Now of course you could go to one of them "discout opinion services" that Catspaw runs, but he probably hires out Cletus at fifty cents an hour.

Seriously Marion, the folks that pay for that can't be very confident in their music.

Rick

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:26 PM

Tell them they don't have to pay you, you only want a fair shot at the gig.

Don

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:27 PM

So it's from a different field, but a valuable lesson. I once read an interview with Mike Liut, a long time goaltender in the National Hockey League. As a teenager he was torn between accepting a University Scholarship and playing Major Junior Hockey. At this point in hockey history approximately 95% of all NHL players had played Major Junior hockey and going to play University hockey in the U.S. was pretty much thought of as giving up on your dream of making the big time in exchange for a free education.

He was leaning towards the Major Junior route, which at that time usually meant that you had to drop out of school due the schedule. He was discussing it with his father who was in favour of the scholarship route. His dad finally said to him, "Son, if you're good enough, they'll find you". That convinced him to go the university route and of course his dad was right.

I think this advice applies to most things.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:40 PM

I recently rented the movie "Bowfinger" in which Steve Martin (who also wrote the script) plays a sleazy, low-rent film director who will do anything for a buck, or to save a buck. He charges actors to audition for him!

It's a good movie. I highly recommend it.

But I never expected life to imitate art to this extent.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Marion
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:49 PM

Wow, this is one of the most unanimous threads ever! So I can't resist offering a dissenting voice.

Whenever you play for free, aren't you effectively paying to play? After all, it costs you time, energy, maybe gas money or parking or babysitting, wear on your strings and so on.

If you're volunteering because of the cause (a benefit, or for the happiness of the audience) you could be said to be making a donation. And if you're volunteering because you want the exposure, you are in a sense buying the exposure, although the costs you incur are more subtle than handing some cash over to the organizer.

I ask this because the same day I got a call asking if I wanted to audition for this TV thing, I got a call from my sister asking if I would play violin in her church sometime. Thing is, going to her church would involve about four hours on the road. So the question before me is whether I'm willing to pay that amount of time and gas to play there, which is not totally unlike the question of whether I'm willing to pay for the TV audition, though it certainly seems less crass.

Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Fortunato
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:50 PM

Sing with/for your family and friends. Join a session, record your music and share it. Travel to the festivals, jam and share. But boycott those people, Marion. Clearly they serve themselves, not the music.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:53 PM

PLAYING............$25.00/Hour
NOT PLAYING........$45.00/Hour
AUDITIONING........$30.00/Hour
NOT AUDITIONING....$50.00/Hour
PRACTICING.........$45.00/Hour
NOT PRACTICING.....$95.00/Hour

Spaw

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: sc
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:55 PM

guess somebody needs to do the devil's advocate thing. so when one elects to 'audition' for some very well known events, there is indeed a fee. Seems like they charge ya a thirty dollar fee to audition via tape to play free at the Kerrville Folk Festival NewFolk concerts. I suspect the same is true at Newport. But this is certainly not the same as a penny-ante cable program.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Marion
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:02 PM

I'm confused, Spaw: is that what you charge for your services, or what you pay people to put up with them?

I wonder how much Kendall paid to be on the Tonight show.

Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:03 PM

Nearly all of my playing is playing for free and I don't view it as paying to play. I do of course want to get enjoyment out of it which to me is a good atmosphere, no real pressure to perform and fun with the people there - and of course the odd pint of beer helps...

I get nothing out of people just listening to me, paid or otherwise - I'm just do it once in a while, usually with someone else as I hate doing that sort of thing alone as I feel too exposed . I just do it for the craic.

Jon

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:08 PM

I should clarify my nothing. I'm not pretending I don't like applause, just it rarely compensates for the nerves, etc. I am feeling.

Jon

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:46 PM

It's wrong. Please don't do it. An audition is not an item that should be for sale. If we set this precedent, it could be very damaging for anyone who desires a career in music.

Also, as a practice, it's indefensible.

Frank

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 05:18 PM

sc - Is this fee applied to name groups like Doc Watson, Dan Crary, or to unknowns that are competing for the space?

Steve

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: sc
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 05:53 PM

Steve, this fee is to audition for the NewFolk Concerts. It is not the main show events. Peter Yarrow originated the Newfolk concerts to provide exposure for deserving performers that are not so well known. Many have turned the tide and went on to become well know songwriters and entertainers after winning the Newfolk competitions. So while there is an audition fee, there is so much to gain.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: SeanM
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:44 PM

The only reason any place gets away with charging to audition is because WE let them. No matter how much 'exposure' they give, to charge just for the 'privelege' of auditioning is WRONG.

Paying to play is a fight for another day. But if enough people politely informed these 'shows' precisely what could be done with their audition fees, then they'd go away - either the fees, or after enough time, the shows.

M

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: sc
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 10:00 PM

Sean, ain't that what you're doin when ya take an add in the paper to sell your home or your car? You know ya got a good product and you're tryin' to get it out in front of the people who may be interested in buyin' it and it don't matter if it costs you a little bit. Unless, of course it's junk and you know it won't sell.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 10:01 PM

I used to belong to the Central New York Bluegrass Association. Each month they would have a Jamboree and it cost $4.00 to attend . The price was to raise money for the CNYBA as operating capital. A price I would pay. Then I was asked to perform at the next show which I said I would. The next Jamboree i went to the gate to play and I said who I was. They checked the performers list and saw I was there. I said great. They said $4.00 please. After a moment of contemplation I paid and then I played.

I played because I was advertised and on the list. I played because friends came from out of town. And I played because I was prepared. But when I finished I questioned the policy with the CNYBA Pres. He said everyone pays because they just do. I asked if it didn't cheapen the music and the art I was willing to give away to a worthy cause by asking for money on top of it? I told him i spend twice that on Coffee, Oatmeal cookies, and cheese cake. He said everyone pays.

I will give away my time because I choose to. I will donate jewelry because I am glad to help a cause. But I will not pay to play a benefit because I'm told too. If the benefit is worthy enough I'm likely to donate more than the entry fee anyway. But to require me to pay to play for free cheapens what I do.

Don

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 10:04 PM

The Chicago Bears picked Cade McNoun as a first round pick. Then they wined and dined him to the hilt and paid him extra millions of dollars to "please come and audition for us????!!!"

He failed in his "audition". I.E. his playing stunk up the place. Then they had to get rid of the guy.

But he got to keep the cash. WHAT A COUNTRY !!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 10:34 PM

Marion, I think the reasonableness of the audition fee depends on what they'll charge to actually perform. Say the fee to perform is $200, well the audition fee is a full 10% of the performance price. Now suppose they wanted to charge you $2,000 to actually appear on the program, well then the audition fee is only 1% of the performance charge... hardly worth worrying about.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: SeanM
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:19 AM

I don't see the connection between paying for an audition and paying to advertise, to be honest. Paying to advertise IS part of the game - but it's a part that results in benefit to you, the band. Paying just to audition is being asked to surrender money without ever being certain you're going to get something in return. Last time I checked, that was called "gambling", not "musicianship".

As to paying the door fee - for me, it would depend on the event. I've worked an event where they charged us all the door fee - then demanded that we not mingle with the crowd afterwards, just head back to the green room until the next show. We raised a stink about it. If I'm paying the gate fee to be at a show, I'm damned well going to enjoy the benefits that the rest of the paying customers get.

I guess it comes down to how desperate you are. So far, I've managed to find enough places where at the most I was volunteering (though the Renaissance Faires I work at eat up a huge budget, that's from paying inflated camping fees and costumes), and usually getting at least a pittance (food, drinks, or money if it's a really nice gig) in return for my performance. Then again, I'm also not burning to be the next Doc, or the next Brittney Spears, or the next what have you - I'm happy to work in relative obscurity, as long as I perform and don't have to deal with too many indignities in doing so.

M

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:49 AM

It sounds like a rip off to me, a few years ago when I was out of work and skint, I saw an ad in the paper advertising for extras in tv shows and films, it said you could make loads of money and to send for a free information pack.I got the informatiom pack and it said I had to pay a 65 pounds registration fee, bollocks to that I thought as I threw my free info pack in the bin.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:01 AM

If they can guarantee that you'll be on the show, and that you'll get plenty of paid gigs as a result, then pay. But get the promises in writing.

Seamus (who has never auditioned for anything, let alone paid for the "privilege.")

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 03:08 AM

There are lots of things we do for free, like benefits, jam sessions, and those other things that just have too many perqs to turn down, but auditioning is a different thing altogether. A very valid form of "paid" auditioning is the process that takes place regarding the Folk Alliance (and other similar) Showcases. You send them albums and money, and then hope they'll ask you to perform...for FREE! Many think it's worth it. Just as many (me included) don't. On the other hand, I do a folk music radio program for free (actually it costs me four bucks for parking every Monday night) for the last 14 years. What makes it worthwhile is that I've NEVER been told what to play (or more importantly what NOT to play). If I were on salary, I'd have to follow certain rules. That's a trade-off I can live with.

By the way marion (should have mentioned this in your other thread) Hugh's Room's open stage is a good way to get some Toronto notoriety, likewise the Free Times cafe. They don't pay...but they don't charge ya either.

Rick

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Grab
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:46 AM

Glad to hear you've decided not to do it, Marion.

On the advertising analogy, the advertising is you appearing on the show. But would you place an ad in a paper if they said, "You give us your money, we roll a couple of dice, and if we get a double-six then we'll post your advert"?

Graham.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 10:55 AM

With the "audition fee" for every "deserving performer" who gets a chance, there are a couple hundred people who apply but are not good enough--so the promoters mostly take money from people they know will never even be considered--

SC, I would be really interested to know how many people that the New Folk operation gets money from, as opposed to how many they allow to play--The thing that kills me is the people who run these events are the same ones who complain about how crooked and corrupt the music business is--well, at least with Payola, when you pay, you get played--

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:52 PM

Any artist/craft type people around have to go through the same process to get into a "Juried" art show. It is a "subjective" way of sorting the wheat from the chaff. The public who then go to the show are then assured of a certain level of quality. You, as an artist at the show can claim a level of expertise, in that you were accepted for the show. This means that you can probably charge more for your product, with the people attendind these shows probably being more inclined to spend money. I was trying to make my living this way a few years ago and paid my $35 Can. to hopefuly get into this one particular wholesale show. I was accepted, I then had to pay my booth fee, another fee for an electrical hook up, I did get free parking though and did not have to pay to get in. I then had the opportunity to display my work, which was well received and I took almost 5K in orders. So would I pay for an audition, in this case remembering 1) this is a totally subjective process, you are at he whim of whoever the judge is. 2) am I going to make a hell of a lot more money out of this opportunity. 3) Will my acceptance mean more prestige/ ability to charge more for my product (in this case music) 4) Is it going to present me to a receptive audience who might want to Book me or buy my CD's. In this case, I doubt that you are really getting more than any freebie anywhere in the world could get you. Sorry, I don't normally ramble this much in the written word. JohnB

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:41 PM

Observations of a geezer who has been around the block a few times:--

In reputable, professional auditions, (actors, dancers, opera singers, tuba players, folk singers, etc., etc.) the producers do not charge. Reputable producers realize that performers willing to audition for them are giving them the opportunity to chose from a talent pool, and they could reduce the size of that pool (and thereby miss a potential star-performer that would make their fortune for them) if they were to discourage people by asking them to pay to audition. In fact, I don't think it would even occur to a reputable producer to charge. Open, free auditions are a matter of rational self-interest on the part of producers. You could actually make a perfectly good argument that the producers should pay you for the opportunity to decide whether or not they want your services.

I would not audition for producers who charge to "let" performers audition, and I would spread the word to others to boycott them. The only times I sing without getting paid for it are:-- 1) at parties, hoots, song circles, some folk festivals (where everybody else is performing for free), or other events where I am having fun and I consider that to be my pay; 2) charitable events of my choice. I will not pay to perform, ever! And if someone else (other than a charitable organization) is making money because I'm performing, I must have some of it. [Nor do I submit any of my writing to publishers who charge a "reading fee." The vast majority of reputable publishers don't.]

I have confidence in my own abilities, and I refuse to grovel. This is not ego talking, it's a matter of self-respect -- and self-preservation. Believe me, there are plenty of opportunities to perform without pay, and I'm quite sure there would be many, many more if you were willing to pay to perform (or to audition). I learned that the hard way, way back when.

Charging you to audition is a rip-off.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:41 PM

Personally, I have a couple cousins that I called, and for a few bucks, they offered get me some bookings in AC or Vegas that pay real money--and they have some friends in Houston who would make those"friggin' nobodies at New Folk" an offer they couldn't refuse--I said, "Hey, you friggin' garbage brain! These are nice people, not those scum you hang around with!" And they said,"Shut up your face, are you friggin' Willie Nelson or what? A payoff is a payoff--a shakedown is a shakedown--take care of the judge and you don't need to worry about the jury!" I declined the offer, but I forward their comments, for what they are worth--

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM

John B.

I set up my jewelry at several shows each year. When I send in a booth and electrical fee it is to rent space. The one show that I have done where there is an application fee that is required with photos for the jury is added to the booth fee if accepted. If I am not accepted the $5.00 application fee is used to cover the postage and handling of my photos so they can be returned. If I rent the space I will run the risk of making a profit out of that space. It is certainly cheaper than owning a storefront.

I have never compared a booth fee to an audition fee before and I'll have to give it some serious consideration as I think about it. If I am donating my time for cause however I will not pay to do so.

Don

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 05:25 PM

It's a scam. I've heard of these kind of so-called "auditions" before. Crooks is what these people are.

Rick - I think you could get more than $2 for your religious opinions. Don't sell yourself cheap!

I am personally willing to provide auditioning opportunities for an introductory course at the WSSBA (William Shatner School of Bad Acting) for a mere $25 Canadian or $18 US. Now that, folks, is a DEAL!!! Just show up at Rombo's in Orillia any time, and talk to "Vinnie". :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: hesperis
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 10:42 PM

WHAT??! There's no "Vinnie" at Rombos... but wait... you said "Rombo's", didn't you? AHA! Hanging out with loose characters again, eh, Hawk?

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 11:21 PM

I will be providing a course on the fossilization of Jimmy Dean pure pork sausages, which when fossilized through my patented, accelerated process, provide excellent mantle decorations, paperweights, and male clothing enhancements.

There is no charge for the course, but you have to provide your own J.D's.


On a slightly more serious note, it absolute bullshit to PAY to audition for ANYTHING, especially when you are not being paid a dime to appear on a local cable show. The convenors of this show have got it all bass ackwards.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 11:55 PM

No, JP, they have it just right..............they know there are a bunch of saps that will help them to underwrite the folks that they really want to play.........its the saps who have it wrong.........package of JD's pure pork is on the way

Mick

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: sc
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 12:18 AM

Well folks, I have a lot of trouble believing all this negative attitude toward the New Folk Concerts. When ya cut a CD ya never know how well it's gonna sell but ya put the money out cause ya believe in yourself and your music. You don't question how much the studio and the duplicators and the engineers and the printers are making! So why do you question the promoters of the greatest folk festivals we have? By the way, the submission fee is only $16. (A Lot cheaper than a cutting a CD). They accept only the first 600 entries and they select thirty two acts to perform. There are awards, rewards and perks not to mention a very impressive bio entry for those selected. And the industry prestige associated with winning the event (and thus your future earning power) would certainly be more valuable than selling a few hundred CDs. So it's not exactly performing free and the main thing is that these events help propagate folk music to the masses and enrich us all in the process. Peace! -sc

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 12:28 AM

I was such a sap way back when I was maybe 22 or 23. This outfit in Toronto advertised as an agency that would help get gigs for local musicians. All you had to do was register with them, and describe the type of music you played (folk, rock, blues, klezmer, etc.). There were about 185,000 young musicians looking for a gig in Toronto at the time, so these guys hit a nerve. Registering cost...I don't remember...$20...$30...something like that. They registered hundreds and hundreds of musicians and bands, including me. Hell, they may have registered thousands, for all I know.

Did anyone get a gig? I don't know. Possibly a mere handful did, in order to provide a shred of legitimacy to this lousy scam. I know I didn't. I never even got a phone call. Nor did some friends of mine who were as gullible as me.

Scams are aimed at the hopeful and inexperienced. We live and learn.

Hesperis - Vinnie is NOT loose! Matter of fact, he's tight most of the time...it's his women who are loose. Sorry, I mispelled Rombos...I thought it hads an apostrophes, buts I shoulds haves noticeds thats the owners is a Greek! And so Rombos ends in "S" with no apostrophes. By gollies I won't makes that mistakes again!

- LH

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Marion
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:13 AM

Here's another example of an "audition fee" that seems more acceptable. To apply to the music therapy program at a university, you have to fill out an application form which includes "essay questions", do an interview, and perform an audition. And there is a fee to apply - I think around $50 is typical for universities.

Does this example seem unreasonable to you? It seems more reasonable to me, because the universities have to do the work of evaluating the application forms, conducting the interviews, and listening to the auditions.

Also, I think the cost of applying (the fee, and the bother involved in writing essays and arranging interview and audition) would serve to narrow down the number of applications, and that this could be in the university's interests. Only people who have a certain level of confidence in their skills and who think that they will probably enroll if accepted will be willing to go to the expense and trouble of applying - and it's in the university's interests to only have to process serious applications.

Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:20 AM

sc, producing and promoting your own CD (or concert) and paying to let someone decide if they want you to sing or not are two entirely different things. I turned down plenty of "opportunities" back in the Sixties, and I did okay. I sang almost every weekend -- for pay. Coffeehouses and college concerts mostly (I made a living at it). I was offered numerous "opportunities" of the "grease my palm and I'll make you a national star" sort and not one of them ever led anyone anywhere.

Reputable producers don't ask you to pay them, they pay you. That's kinda basic.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Marion
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:24 AM

And I think sc and Rick have a point about there being some situations where paying to audition might be more acceptable - where the potential reward (getting to play to a large audience of good connections at a more respected venue) makes the gamble of the entrance fee seem worth it.

The situation I described in my initial post, on the other hand, is clearly not worth it - a 15 minute slot on a small cable company's show isn't a very big deal, unless one is star-struck by the prospect of being on TV. I'm not, and this isn't something I'd be interested in doing right now, even if it didn't have a fee. But if it were a gig that I really wanted, I'd probably be able to rationalize gambling an audition fee on it.

Marion, more interested in getting good than in getting discovered

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:33 AM

Marion, the music therapy program you describe is also an entirely different thing. And, honestly, within my experience, I have never seen any of these "potential reward" situations pan out. All potential, no reward. Believe me, there are better ways.

(Goin' to bed now. Back in the morning)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:41 AM

The way I calculate it, those promoters take in nearly $10,000 in application--and 568 people get zilch--it is like a lottery, only with the element of chance removed--

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:48 AM

Hey Marion! All you need bring to audition for my band is a cold 6-pack! But it's got to be real cold.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Willie-O
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 03:20 AM

All the comments are appropriately skeptical to the concept, but I don't think this is a scam along the lines of "talent auditions". Because I know the organizer, who I think is pretty community-minded. So I just dropped said organizer a line to ask where the money goes.

I kinda think it's not so much a scam as a habit that could start to seem normal around here, people are forever organizing these musical events as ongoing contests for a spot on a compilation CD. The CD's themselves seem to fall into a deep hole once they're released.

But I'll report back when I get a reply.

Willie-O
Ouch!. Damn sharp fencepost up my #$%^&*(

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Deni
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 05:08 AM

The cream always rises to the top.

Providing of course, the cream has time, opportunity, cheek and a great big whack of determination.

deni

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 08:24 AM

How about this one? My sister played a gig for free for a friend of hers who was trying to promote songwriters in our area. The show that was videotaped for some cable thing that also had a website. Her performance is on their website. Someone asked for a copy to help promote somtehing else she was doing. She contacted these guys and they said sure, send us $50.

They also "invited" her to play a gig that would have about seven or eight different acts. It was an afternoon thing, they were going to film it for their show. It was to be done at Toronto's famous El Macombo. I think they asked for $100 from her, maybe more. She graciously passed. The show did go on though, someone we kind of know sent us an e-mail saying that they were excited to be playing it.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 10:39 AM

An artist need not pay to be judged.

catspaw I like your Mark Bros. rendition of fees.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 12:25 PM

I just checked a couple of websites, and apparently New Folk Concerts is for singer/songwriters, not for people who are primarily performers. This may be something different. I presume the main idea here is to promote your songs, and promoting yourself as a performer is secondary. Well, I guess presenting your songs in the venue like this is not much different from paying to have a demo tape or record made. Since my song repertoire is made up almost entirely of traditional material and I do not write songs (I have such a huge list of traditional songs I want to learn that I doubt I'll ever live long enough to learn them all), I can't say that I'm all that familiar with the hungers and ambitions of aspiring songwriters — so on this matter, I reserve judgment.

But what I said above about straight auditions, I still hold with. There are sleazy promoters out there will try to charge you for the privilege of audition for them. Their next view of you should be buttocks and elbows as you head out the door.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:31 PM

Let's settle this once and for all call the Attorney General's to see what they think about it--

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Willie-O
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:51 PM

just got a response from the prime organizer of jthis business...it's not a scam, the money goes for stuff like 8 x 10 glossies, SOCAN registration of material, website development, and recording costs for the upcoming compilation CD #2.

It's a lot different from paying $100 just to say you've played a set at the El Mocambo.

Pay for play is one reason I'm never moving to Toronto. I hear in Japan, the usual arrangement for a foreign band that wants to set up a tour there, it's all pay-for-play--and the going rate (I don't know what size of venue, guess we're talking large clubs here) is you pay about $14,000 Cdn ($10,000 US) for the venue. For one night. Clubgoers pay about $72 Cdn to attend.

Willie-O
No Japanese tour scheduled in near future, thankee.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:36 PM

Interesting, Willie-O. But I'm afraid I don't understand about the 8 x 10 glossies thing. When I started performing regularly, I had a pile of them taken by a professional photographer and I always supplied my own. I never paid a promoter to do them.

Back in the late Fifties and early Sixties, Seattle and environs had some darn nice coffeehouses that paid singers -- not much, maybe, but enough to make it worth your while. And the owners of the more successful ones realized that the reason people came to their specific coffeehouse (competition at one time was kind of stiff) was not the coffee and pastries, but the singer. So if a singer was drawing people in, they would bust their asses to see that he or she was happy and well taken care of. These days, I understand that some places charge a fee to let a singer sing at an open mike. I think these people are forgetting why the audiences come to their places and spend money. No singers, no audience, ergo no money. I think there's an old proverb about how one should treat a goose who lays golden eggs.

Before I would pay somebody else to let me play, I would stick my neck out and look into promoting my own concerts. And keep the bleedin' profits (if any) myself.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:41 PM

And why, Willie, should people who are not participating in the event(the 568 that are not selected) foot the bill for that stuff? It is a lottery, plain and simple--and a fixed lottery at that--

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: SeanM
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 05:55 PM

OK - so a performance promotion fee is assessed for promotional materials, CD production etc.

Why should the auditionees be the ones to pay it? I still lean towards it being a scam even if only the performers pay for it, but asking the auditionee to blindly subsidize any and all performers 'accepted' is just wrong.

If one were to go to a mechanic and be told "Well, you're all paying $100 just for the chance I might look at your car, and maybe about 10% of you will actually get your car worked on"... would THAT be acceptable?

M

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Gary T
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 09:23 PM

Hmm, SeanM, I'm in auto repair, and I kinda like that idea. Sure would make scheduling easier--no limit to how many cars per day or how soon I could get one in the shop for the "audition" part.

Willie-O, you seem comfortable and confident with this scenario being above-board, but most of us seem to be hung up on on paying to AUDITION, which appears exploitive, rather than paying to PARTICIPATE, which is easier to justify. Can you enlighten us further?

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Marion
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:17 AM

I think we need to distinguish between a scam and a bad deal.

It would be a scam if it's deceptive, i.e., the organizer has no intention of accepting any auditioners other than her friends, or if the money she says is going for CD production is actually going into her pocket.

A bad deal, on the other hand, is when what is get isn't worth what you pay, although it is all over the table and what you get is what you were told you would get. And a bad deal according to one person's values might be a good deal according to another's.

In this instance (and M.Ted, Willie-o was talking about the open mike TV show I described in the first post, not sc's description of Newfolk festivals), what you get for your $20 is the possibility of a slot on a small-time cable show and the possibility that you might end up subsidizing other people's participation instead. I think this is a bad deal, and I suspect that many of you will agree with me; but if somebody just really wants to be on TV, then it might be a good deal for them. But I wouldn't call it a scam, if everyone knows what the deal is going in and the organizer isn't pocketing money she said she'd spend on the project.

Actually Willie-o's posts have brought up a twinge of guilt for me, because I also know the organizer, and I never suspected her of dishonest motives, nor did I mean to make her a target - even anonymously - for accusations of dishonesty. I only mentioned this specific project because it was what got me thinking - what I wanted to talk about what the principle of paying for an audition in general.

You're right, Gary T, that most people are objecting in principle to the idea of having to pay just to audition for something. So what about my example of paying to apply to a university music program? Is there anyone who thinks that this scenario is exploitative or a scam? If not, what's the difference? Don Firth says it's a very different situation, but I don't see why; it's still a case of having to pay just to be considered for a spot.

Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:24 AM

Every 'Audition only' University program I've seen does require you to register for the class first - but then you can ALSO cancel said class and get a refund, provided you drop it within a certain period before the semester starts. In a situation like this, I see it more as a matter of paying a deposit to a potential instructor, which can then be returned should the instructor decide not to take you as a student.

As to terming the 'pay for audition' a scam - well, I guess that is a personal belief. Pyramid scams are often quite blatant about their goals, and about their payments and profits. But, they're still illegal. In this case, I just can't help but feel that there's something wrong with the ethics behind charging auditionees. Maybe I'm just viewing it as the old "sucker born every minute" saw, and revolting from the concept on that point, but I really do view this as wrong. Given that I can guarantee that no matter what they say, every person does NOT have an equal chance of getting picked, I view it as using the less talented but still hopeful as a cash cow to bleed. There's no chance whatsoever they're picked, but they're still encouraged (and charged) the same as others who will have a chance.

If they allowed a refund if requested, I'd feel better about the concept. In that case, if you feel you'd like to 'donate' your audition fee to the organizers, you'd be welcome to. But you wouldn't be required.

M

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: musicmick
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 03:00 AM

I've been a full-time professional folksinger for over forty years. I have learned a few truths about the business.(It aint like I thought it would be) First of all, performing is a business. A business needs to sell its product or service. Selling involves expense. A successful business has to keep selling to survive. I am pleased to pay to showcase (these people are doing me a great service). I am pleased to pay a fee to be considered for showcasing (I am confident that I will be selected. I've been doing this a long time and I know what the judges want to hear). Believe me, when I pay to audition, I do so for sound business reasons. Mike Miller

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: sed
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 03:58 PM

The newfolk event you mention: is that the one held at Kerrville, TX? If so when I appeared on it in 1978 there were no audition fees at all. Several of the 40 of us who were selected to perform later became very successful musicians: Nancy Griffith and Jon Ihms, in particular. Some, like Tim Henderson, who wrote and sang a hilarious satire on Anita Bryant, were just having loads of fun. It was fun to participate but the cost of transportation to the fest. kept me from ever doing it again. Could it be that this pay-to-play phenomena is strong evidence of opportunists finding their way in a rapidly-changing world? Like the poor, the ambitious we will always have with us. Musicians perform for some many different reasons and we refuse to perform for many different reasons. I guess it takes all of us to make the big song sing.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:02 PM

Willie-O didn't use a proper noun at the beginning of his post--so I was not really clear who he was talking about--I suppose that is why the invented proper nouns, in the first place--in any case, the the most charitable thing I can say about the cable TV thing is that your friend has figured out a way to get people to pay for something that people generally are paid to do--more or less the way a "vanity publisher" would--

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Marion
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 02:48 AM

Hi SeanM. What you describe isn't the situation I had in mind; where I come from, you have to pay an application fee when you apply to enter a university program (as opposed to entering a specific class), and it isn't refundable if you don't get accepted or you decide not to enroll. So it would be a truer analogy to an audition fee.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, musicmic.

Hi M.Ted. I realize that it wasn't obvious which "this thing" Willie-o was talking about; I was just clarifying it FYI. In regards to the cable TV thing, I had another look at the poster and noticed the curious statement that "you don't need to bring your instruments to the audition/workshop." This confirms my suspicion that they're taking anyone who's committed enough to pay the entry fee and show up for the advance gathering. So I think your vanity publisher analogy is very to the point.

I don't think I would ever want to work with a vanity publisher, but I think it's a valid way of doing things for the people who want to do it that way - there may be shady vanity publishers, but nothing inherently shady about the business. In the same way, if there are people willing to buy air time for their music and people willing to sell it, I figure that's fair enough - I just don't want to do it myself.

Having said that, I'm feeling like a wimp right now cause I just had a chat with the organizer and allowed her to continue believing that the only reason I wasn't participating in this thing is that I'm moving town...

Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 05:40 PM

When Art Thieme said that charging someone to listen to them was an idea whose time had come, I thought he was just joking, until I found this ad in the paper:

"Do you want some honest and boldfaced feedback on your music? Pro musician will review and evaluate your demo. Send SASE and $20 to: The Listener, [local address]"

Yeah... I'll get that in the mail right away...

Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: GUEST,Just Amy
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 07:06 PM

If you are in California, this is illegal.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 07:21 PM

I'm intrigued by Mike Miller's comment, "I am pleased to pay to showcase (these people are doing me a great service). I am pleased to pay a fee to be considered for showcasing (I am confident that I will be selected)."

Certainly there are many contests (not just competitions for showcase slots) for which one must pay an entry fee. In this case, the "prize" is the opportunity to showcase, which may or may not include payment but definitely includes the allure of "exposure". The losers, of course, lose their money but can console themselves with the thought that at least they've had "exposure" to the judges, who might select them in for future showcases.

This is all well and good in a situation in which there are regularly scheduled showcases (especially if one has only to audition once to be considered for several showcase dates) that are part of a prestigious festival such as Kerrville, or that have some prestige (or, at least, a "following") in and of themselves. But in a one-time-only situation such as Marion described last October – a spot on a local cable-TV show – the ethics of the situation are less clear. Local cable stations simply don't have a very high viewership as a whole, so what's the carrot they're dangling? What "great service" are those people doing for you? To whom will you have "exposure" even if you win the contest and appear on the show?

For my own part, I've been taped for a couple of cable-TV spots by arrangement with the local "active figure" but, in this case, the guy would sign up whoever wanted to do it, and the service was free (you had to pay a small price for your own tape of the spot, though, which I thought was fair!). The spots have been aired so I can mention in my press kit that I've appeared on local cable TV. Somehow I don't think that's going to impress anybody, since anybody who wants to can do it for free... but I think people might be even less impressed to learn that a musician had paid to be considered for an appearance on local cable TV.

One final thought, with regard to Mike's comment about his confidence that he would be selected for a showcase for which he had paid to be considered: many entrants who are not selected for such showcases have entered the competitions with the same confidence, and the same level of expertise. Naturally one has to enter such a competition with a positive attitude, or one is simply throwing away one's entry fee. The tough part is losing out to one's "business" competition while retaining a positive "business" relationship with the people to whom one has just lost money!

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 08:41 PM

In 2 words: HEYUL NO!

Reputable folk don't charge. I can understand doing a gig to benefit a worthy cause and taking a reduced fee or doing it for free, but to be *charged* to audition? Especially if the venue is to make money off of you...that just smacks of opportunism and parasitism to me.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:59 AM

"...that just smacks of opportunism and parasitism to me" – especially when you consider that this particular local cable-TV special – "a showcase of the area's open mike denizens" as Marion put it – is for all intents and purposes an advertisement for the local pubs. Clearly, the message being conveyed is "If you want to see and hear these people, come out to the open mike nights at this bar and that bar and the other bar." If I were in the situation, I would not want to pay even if I had won an audition to be on the program, because I wouldn't want to pay any part of the bars' advertising bill for that TV spot.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 05:37 PM

Hear Hear, SharonA!!

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Shonagh
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 02:48 PM

At the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Dance they expect you to pay for your applications to be handled. Its something mad like £20 but for the traditional music course its even more. I cant remember off the top of my head but its ridiculous! What do they actually do with them? get them in the post them put them in a pile and someone reads them?! And after that you have to pay for your transport to the place to audition, not to mention all the other necessicities like food! Are we made of money or what?! As for paying to audition, thats just plain nonsense! and thats all I have to say on that subject!

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: Marion
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:58 PM

There's a new folk festival starting up in Toronto (Winterfolk) and I'm looking into applying for a showcase with my shiny new band. Like the Newfolk thing described above, they charge 20 or 25 dollars to apply to play for free (well, for a weekend pass and some benefits). However, they also say:

Every Submission received will not only be listened to and evaluated carefully - but all submissions (even those not selected to perform at Winterfolk) will receive a personal written critique from veteran musician, music-journalist, and JUNO award winning producer [name I've heard of]. This is a rare opportunity to get your music evaluated by a successful professional musician - which is worth more than the price of the application fee!

I thought this was interesting - it's like they felt they had to have an audition fee, but felt bad about it, so they thought of something to offer the people not accepted.

Marion

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: sed
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 05:08 PM

Marion and all,

Here's another pay to apply to play for free festival showcase which charges a little less than Kerrville.

Like many other musicians I don't support the pay to play or pay to audition phenomena but if others do then I'll just shrug. Where's the musician's union when you need it? Surely the AFM doesn't approve of this does it? Even if it does I don't.

PS When Peter Yarrow started the NewFolk Concert showcase no fees were charged.

PPS I think of Marshall McLuhan's prediction forty years ago that we would soon have a great deal of leisure time but who would have thought that people in the arts and crafts would be competing to play or display for free? There's always something to hold us back if we'll let it. And there's always some opportunity if we'll only take it but no two people develop themselves the same way. I think of Pete Seeger who raised three children as a "folksinger" during a time when the word had little meaning to the mainstream public. He did it anyway and very creatively, as did several others, still amazingly. And now they are legends.

Subject: RE: Paying to audition - is this normal?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:17 AM

This past Summer, I answered one of those ubiquitous ads in the back of the Village Voice (free tabloid in New York City) for people interested in doing voiceovers.

The person made sure he invited me up to his "office" after complimenting me on my beautiful voice. [I happen to believe it is, but that's my ego talking.] When I got there, he wasn't in. His assistant was and it was immediately clear that his office was also his studio and rather rundown apartment. There were at least 4 phone lines for different businesses.

The first thing the assistant did was had me a generic script to train with. He also handed me a list of fees. They were: Training--$1000; demo tape--$500; introduction party with agents--$350, etc. In short, it seemed like a rather creaky way of separating people from their money. When he finally arrived, he immediately began to pitch me. My questions were answered evasively.

I put off making a decision that day and made an appointment for the following week. When I arrived the following week, I began with one simple pair of questions: "Do you have a business card? Why was it not out on the table?" He seemed insulted by the question. After he gave me the card, I advised him that, as he was unable or unwilling to give me concrete answers to many of the questions, I had decided to not sign up for now. His answer was that his rates were going up in the immediate future and why did I waste his valuable time on this second interview.

I am glad I was not hungry or stupid enough to invest in his program. Sounded like a con to me.