 sj |
||
|
||
Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
|
|
|
Subject: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:19 AM What songs {folk songs or otherwise} or children's playground rhymes can you think of that include a reference to #9? What, if anything, does #9 mean, and why does it seem to occur so often in songs & rhymes? I'll start the ball rolling with some examples from my memory and some examples I've collected on Mudcat, on my website Cocojams, and elsewhere. Please join in the fun & games by sharing examples of & comments about songs and rhymes that mention the number 9!* For the sake of folkloric documentation, if you post any examples of children's playground rhymes, please include demographical information-particularly where {city, state in the US, and city, country outside the USA} you remember chanting that rhyme or when you first heard it chanted. Also, please include performance information such as whether this was/is a counting out rhyme, a ball bouncing/jump rope {skip rope} rhyme, or a handclap rhyme {hand game} etc. Thanks, in advance, for your participation in this thread! * For the record, I'm still working on a book about English children's rhymes, and I may be interested in including any examples of those rhymes that are posted on this thread. |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: AL BOWEN (from Almeda Riddle) From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:26 AM Al Bowen Mrs. Riddle: "This is 'Al Bowen.' This is the engineer that hit Number 9.") 'Twas Christmas night, the night was dark, And the moon had hidden her face. Al Bowen, a faithful engineer, Went cheerfully to his place. Al had a smile, kind word for all; A courteous man was he. His winning ways made many a friend, As many will agree. Before he made that fatal trip, He cheerfully proclaimed, "Goodbye, Mama dear; if I never come back, I'll love you just the same. "I hate to make my run tonight; My headlight is no good. I fear some evil may take place; I feel just like it would. "But there's no use to be afraid. No extra men have we. I'll do my duty come what may; What is to be will be." Then he took his seat inside the cab, MacNelly by his side. "Now keep your place, old man," said he, "We'll take a flying ride. "We're thirty minutes late tonight; Buck Hannon, how he'll swear. He's switching now at the station . . . I see his headlight there. "Pile in the coal, heat her up," said he, "We've got to make up lost time." Then to his surprise he saw a headlight Come streaming down the line. "That's old No. 9, good God," he said, "And she's coming around the neck. Oh, jump, Mac, jump; I'll stay with her; You'll find me in the wreck." Christmas morning the searchers came And found his body there, But his soul had taken its flight To Elysian fields so fair. We never will know the cause of it; A signal wrong was given, But we hope we know Al's soul's at rest In the faraway peaceful Heaven. http://www.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/riddleal1258.html On that website there's a link to a recording of this song. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:36 AM Two examples of "Miss Susie Had A Steamboat" miss susie had a steam boat the steam boat had a bell miss susie went to heaven the steam boat went to hello operator please give me number 9 if you dissconect me ill kick you from behind the frigderator there lie a piece of glass miss susie sat apon it and cut her little ask me no more questions tell me no more lies miss susie told me all of this before the day she died her hair purpel she died her haid pink she died here hair all diffenrnt colors then washed down the sink me in the ocean sink me in the sea sink me in the toilet but please dont pee on me - ?????? ; 10/6/2003; http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php ** Ms. Susie had a steamboat, the steamboat had a bell-DING DING-the steamboat went to heaven, Ms. Susie went to-Hello operator, give me number 9, and if u disconnect me, I'll kick you from-Behind the fridgerator, there was a piece of glass, Ms. Susie went to pick it up and fell upon her-Ask me no more questions, tell me no more lies, the boys are in the bathroom zipping up their-Flies are in the meddow, bees are in the park, Ms. Susie and her boyfriend are kissing in the D-A-R-K D-A-R-K-Darker than the ocean, darker than the sea, darker than the underwear my sister puts on me! -NO1 U KNOW; 2/18/2004; http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php -snip- No demographics or peformance information was included with these posts. However, it appears that Miss Susie {or "Muss Lucy" or "Miss Molly" etc} Had A Steamboat {or "A Tugboat"}" is usually performed as a partner handclap rhyme by girls ages 6-12 years. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM Ah Beep Beep **** Ah Beep Beep Ah Beep Beep Ah Beep Beep Walkin down the street Ugawa. Ugawa That means Black power. White boy. Destroy.. I said it. I meant it And I'm here to represent it. Soul sister number 9 Sock it to me one more time. Uh hun! Uh Hun! Source: Tracey S.,{African American female}; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania; childhood remembrance,1968 ; collected by Azizi Powell, 2000;{in Pittsburgh, PA}; http://cocojams.com/handclap_rhymes.htm Note: Tracey told me that, although she was in kindergarten at the time, she has clear memories of {Black} older girls & girls her age standing on their porches reciting this rhyme in a taunting way while White policeman were patrolling the streets of her neighborhood during the riots that occurred as a result of Martin Luther King's assassination. Tracey said that she considered this to be more than a taunt. She said that the rhyme to be an expression of Black pride & unity as well as a taunt directed to the White policemen. "Ungawa" is a movie industry made up expression found in Tarzan movies where it supposedly was how Native Americans, or Africans or other non-White people greeted each other or talked to each other. During the late 1960s, this word was taken up by Afro-centric Black Americans who added the rhyming phrase "Black power" {power pronounced here as "powa". Thus a word that was used in demeaning ways found new life as an affirmation of Black pride. In the example given by Tracey, "white boy. Destroy" means "Destroy white boys". Whether she knew what she was saying and whether she should have been saying it is a whole 'nuther matter. "Sock it to me!" was a popular African American slogan during that time that probably originated as a sexualized expression. However, from my remembrance of the use of this saying, "Sock it to me" mostly comes from R&B records where this saying was repeated a "number" of times {though not nine times], and meant something like "Give it to me!". In that context, "Give it to me!" meant "Show me what you've got", meaning show me your best dance moves. Of course, the best dance moves were also usually the sexy, hip shaking ones, or they were the body to body slow dancing that we called "grinding". So in a way, we're full circle. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:27 AM This next example of number nine, is from a children's rhyme that I found on a School Rhymes discussion on this website: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=405667 "The lastest hand clapping rhyme i've heard from my daughter goes something like this: eenie meanie popsaweenie you are the one for me education, numeration I like you Going down down baby Down by the river sweet sweet sugar I like you So sister number 9 hit me with it one more time Caught you with your boyfriend naughty naughty Didn't do the dishes lazy lazy Jumping out the window cos you flippin CRAZY Crazy has to be screamed out at the top of your voice in the worst essex/cockney accent you can muster She's 8 (year 3) What is the world coming to" -stormin norm 22-06-2006, 22:42 Great Britain #4 [post of that discussion] Note: In my opinion, the change from "soul sister number nine"-as given in the example I posted immediately before this one-to "so sister number nine" is probably a result of folk etymology. It's probable that whoever shared this rhyme with that British girl wasn't familiar with the referent/expression "soul sister number nine", ans so the line was changed to make more sense to those chanting it. The next line "hit me with it one more time" means basically the same thing as "give it to me"/"sock it to me". However, I associate that saying most with superstar R&B singer James Brown's instruction to his drummer to "Hit me with it one time {and the drummer would play one beat}. Then James Brown would say "Hit me with it two times {and the drummer would play two beats}. etc. I suppose that this colloquial expression could have been introduced to Great British children through James Brown's and others' R&B records. This phrase may have come from American jazz and/or blues [??]. At any rate, I think "hit me with it one time" was probably more familiar to non-American children than the saying "sock It To me". ** I'm interested in knowing where the saying "soul sister #9" came from. Also, what is the earliest documented use of that expression/referent. Anybody know or care to hazard a guess? |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:30 AM Correction: I just noticed an error in the "Ah Beep Beep" example that I posted. That phrase is not supposed to repeated. The beginning of that rhyme goes: "Ah beep beep walkin down the street" |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: MaineDog Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:13 AM What about the "Nine Points of Roguery"? We often played the tune, wondering who could name all nine points, and also exclaim "Been there, done that!" for each point. We could start out with: drunkenness Lechery Womanizing card playing gambling telling of tall tales playing the banjo lechery gluttony dancing misleading the young irreverence etc. MD |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM Engine Engine Number Nine Engine Engine Number Nine Going down the street car line If that train rolls off the track Do you want your money back {Yes} Y-E-S spells yes And you are O-U-T out. -Multiple sources, including from my memory of Atlantic City, New Jersey {1950s} Note: Engine Engine Number Nine was used as a choosing it/counting out rhyme. Girls and boys used it {and still use it} for this purpose. When I was a child, a group of children would either huddle around the chanter or [at another time] would stand in a straight line in front of the chanter. One method of playing was that all the children would stretch out their right arm toward the chanter, with their right fist balled up.* The chanter would then touch each child's fist with each word. The child who's fist was touched at the end of the question "Do you want your money back could say "Yes" or she or he could say "No". The chanter would then continue the rhyme by using that response in the next part of the rhyme. The child whose fist was touched at the end of the rhyme was "out". This continued until one person remained. We used this rhyme was used to pick "it" in hide & go seek games. Unlike accounts that I've read in a number of children's books on rhymes, people wanted to be "it". *In my childhood I also remember children standing in a horizontal line facing the chanter who stood facing them. Each child in the line stretched out her or his right foot and the chanter would touch each child in the row's foot while saying the rhyme. The rest of the chant continued as given above. I've seen this rhyme used for picking team captains in an after-school program that I facilitated at various times from 1999-2006, in Pittsburgh, PA {African American girls & boys ages 5-12 years}. In a collection note from 2004, the group was to play relay running races, but two captains had to be picked. I asked the children how we should pick captains. An eight year old boy said he would show me. He then said I'mma say Engine Engine Number 9" and told the rest of the children to "Come on". The children huddled around him and stretched out their right foot. The rhyme proceeded as I described it above. The boy used a faster tempo than I recall using as a child-I think this was to get the rhyme over with and the races started. At any rate I've seen/heard this rhyme chanted fast-like this boy did-or a bit slower than that-as I recall it being done in my childhood. Which ever tempo you start with is the one you use througout. To do otherwise would be preceived as cheating. The ending for the rhyme that this boy used was "And you are not the one to be it in this game". I've seen other examples of the "out" line being changed, but whichever way it's said must be said throughout the entire recitation. At the end of the recitation, the last child who remained was the first team captain. That team captain then became the new chanter, and the process started all over again {with the first chanter as part of the group of children}. When that captain was picked by this process, the two of them-starting with the first captain picked-would alternate selecting children for their relay race team by calling out that person's name or nickname. When those races ended, if the group had time in that session to start the races again, my rule was that the two children who were chosen last were the new team captains. They then selected members for their team by calling out the name of the person they wanted on that team. In that way, the self-esteem of those children got a boost, and we didn't have to go through the process of saying "Engine Engine Number Nine" again. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM MaineDog, thanks for posting that example of the use of number 9. I'm never heard of "Nine Points of Roguery" before. Would you please share more information? Is this an adult game? I like the "been there" done that" response. I take it that even if people hadn't done what the word was proceeding it, they were still supposed to say "been there done that". Is that correct? Was this said in unison, or one person after another with a "caller" or soloist leading the game? And when do you recall playing this? {meaning what decade} Is it old, or is it something that traditional, or a "modern" party game, meaning its played at social events for adults? And since your name is MaineDog, am I correct in assuming that this is a New England game? Do you know if it is known elsewhere? Thanks again for your addition to this thread! |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:20 PM The Wreck Of The # 9 (Carson Robinson) should be in DT |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:25 PM Strange but a DT search doesn't show it: http://www.lizlyle.lofgrens.org/RmOlSngs/RTOS-NumberNine.html |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM Sandy Mc Lean, that's a great article!! I appreciate you posting a link to it. Here's a brief excerpt of that article: "When I was growing up, I listened repeatedly to several train-wreck records that my parents had bought before I was born. My two favorites were Old 97 and Number 9, both because of their wonderful tunes. I didn't discover until reading the Scalded book that Number 9 was fictional, a song made up by a professional hillbilly singer named Carson Robison, following tried-and-true formulas. He admitted that it was based on no actual train wreck". -snip- The writer reference is to Katie Letcher Lyle's book Scalded to Death by the Steam (Algonquin Books of Chapel Hill, 1991) which "is all about train wrecks that have become the subject of songs". |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 02:38 PM I'm sorry. I have two more corrections, both to my 19 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM post. This is what happens when I rush and write something down from memory and don't check my notes first because "I remember this as well as I remember my name". Ummm-so what's my name, again? First of all, the last line of "Engine Engine Number Nine" that I wrote [from my memory of my childhood] is wrong. The actual last line that was used was "And you are not it" [with no spelling]. Or we could say "And you are it", again with no spelling. ** Secondly, my notes from the after-school session in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania {Fort Pitt Elementary School, April 2004} documents that an 8 year old boy [whose name I didn't write down] voluntarily gave me two counting out/choosing it rhymes. The last one was used to choose team captains for relay racing. The first rhyme was "Engine Engine Number Nine" [going down the trolley line. However, the actual rhyme that was used to choose the team captains was "Eenie Meenie Minie Mo". The version of Eenie Meenie Minie Mo that the first boy said was: Eenie Meenie Miney Mo Catch a tiger by the toe If he hollers let him go Enty Minty Miney Mo -snip- I have an exclamation point after that last line because it isn't the way I grew up saying it. I also noted that the boy selected as the first team captain also said the last line the same way as the first boy, perhaps in imitation of him. Most African American children in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area who I've heard recite this rhyme give the last line as "Eenie Meenie Miney Mo", which was how I learned it. However, from time to time, after that I've heard other Black children in Pittsburgh area say enty, minty miney mo." ** My apologies for posting that misrememberd information. I've learned a lesson from this experience that when sharing information like this, I have to have my notes in front of me. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: MaineDog Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:50 PM Folk songs are never wrong! They do continuously evolve. Don't sweat the small stuff, just sing. MD |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:05 PM MaineDog. I agree that no version of a folk rhyme is the right version. However, what I was concerned about was my failing to check my notes and therefore posting inaccurate information-from a folkloric documentation point of view. I believe that it's important to collect and accurately report demographial information about which version was sung or chanted when, and by whom, and how it was performed. That's the reason why I felt that it was important from a folkloric standpoint to post corrections about the information that I had posted earlier, however minor in the scheme of things that this is. ** Btw, MaineDog, I'm hoping that you'll respond to my post of 19 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM in which I ask you some questions about "Nine Points of Roguery". ?? |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: oldhippie Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:31 PM Wasn't there a song, "Love Potion Number 9" ? |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: LOVE POTION NUMBER NINE (Lieber/Stoller) From: Azizi Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:44 PM Love Potion Number Nine The Clovers, The Searchers I took my troubles down to Madame Rue You know that gypsy with the gold-capped tooth She's got a pad down on Thirty-Fourth and Vine Sellin' little bottles of Love Potion Number Nine I told her that I was a flop with chics I've been this way since 1956 She looked at my palm and she made a magic sign She said "What you need is Love Potion Number Nine" She bent down and turned around and gave me a wink She said "I'm gonna make it up right here in the sink" It smelled like turpentine, it looked like Indian ink I held my nose, I closed my eyes, I took a drink I didn't know if it was day or night I started kissin' everything in sight But when I kissed a cop down on Thirty-Fourth and Vine He broke my little bottle of Love Potion Number Nine ------ guitar solo ------ I held my nose, I closed my eyes, I took a drink I didn't know if it was day or night I started kissin' everything in sight But when I kissed a cop down on Thirty-Fourth and Vine He broke my little bottle of Love Potion Number Nine Love Potion Number Nine Love Potion Number Nine Love Potion Number Nine by Leiber / Stoller http://www.bluesforpeace.com/lyrics/love-potion.htm |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: SINSULL Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:17 PM Sixteen Tons I loaded sixteen tons of Number Nine coal And the Straw(?) boss said "Well bless my soul." |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Neil D Date: 20 Jul 08 - 02:28 AM "Revolution #9" by The Beatles |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Jay777 Date: 20 Jul 08 - 03:26 AM Fourpence a Day by Ewan MacColl, last line: "And he might raise our wages to nine pence a day". Seems like galloping inflation to me, but I love this song. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: GUEST,wordfella Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:53 AM Out on runway number nine Big 707's set to go... |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Jay777 Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:58 AM A search on "nine" brings up loads in the DT. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 20 Jul 08 - 07:06 AM Jay777, thanks for that information. And thanks to others who have posted on this thread thus far. At least for me, song category threads are kinda like lighthearted games in which people are supposed to use their memory to come up with songs that fit that particular category. This is my approach to these kinds of threads, but that expectation or rule isn't written down anywhere. But, given my expectation that people are supposed to dig into their memory bank for examples in that particular category which can be posted to that thread, to use the wonderful Digital Tradition list of songs, or to use an Internet search engine like Google to come up with an example, is like cheating. However, like I said, I didn't state that rule from the onset of this thread or any other category thread that I've started. And I've never seen that rule or expectation stated anywhere. Therefore, if you and some other people prefer to use the DigiTrad, and/or a search engine, or any other resource to come up with examples to post in this category thread or any other category thread, then go for it! Also, I appreciate you mentioning the DigiTrad because sometimes people-including me-forget to use that resource when we are thinking about a song and can't remember its words. There've been a number of times when I googled the song's lyrics and the first listing on Google is the Digitrad on Mudcat, or a Mudcat thread {which means that using the internal search engine is sometimes also helpful, particularly if you're aware that-because of the Mudcat engine crash in some month in 2005-the key words will only pull up threads before that month in 2005, and the message shown on that search listing may not correlate with the given thread. But there is another reason why I start category threads-beside that challenge your mind reason. A lot of times when I start these threads I'm hoping to learn about songs-and children's playground rhymes within that stated category that I've never knew before. Furthermore, when I start a category thread, or read one that I didn't start, I anticipate that I'll learn something about about or related to those songs that I didn't know before. In addition, I find category threads most interesting when the poster shares memories that he or she has associated with that song. That often makes the song more memorable for me, too. For all of these reasons, I prefer it when posters don't list multiple examples of songs that fit the given category. That said, I know that everyone does not have to have the same expectations about [of?] these category threads that I do. Some people may like the challenge of listing a large number of song titles that fit that category. If so, who am I to spoil their fun? [That's a rhetorical question. I know I don't have the power to spoil someone else's fun, and if I did have that power, I wouldn't use it]. I'm sure there are at least 9 other things that I could say on this subject, but I'll stop right here. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: MaineDog Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:25 AM re: Nine (9) (IX) (---------) points of Roguery, the following link may help Nine Points of Roguery (tune reference) What the required, or officially sanctioned points may be and how they are to be exorcised is the subject of much speculation, mainly of an intellectual sort, due to the ages and family status of the participants, but discussions of the problem at hand are frequently fruitful, especially around a camp fire with instruments and booze present. Good luck in you research MD |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: CLOUD NINE (from The Temptations) From: Azizi Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:03 PM Cloud Nine [performed by the Temptations] A-who, who, awho, who... Dennis: The childhood part of my life wasn't very pretty. You see, I was born and raised in the slums of the city. It was a one room shack we slept in, other children beside me. We hardly had enough food or room to sleep. It was a hard times, needed something to ease my troubled mind. Paul: Ooo, listen. My father didn't know the meaning of work. He disrespected Mama and treated us like dirt. I left home seekin' a job that I never did find. Depressed and down-hearted, I took to Cloud 9. I'm doing...(fine) Up here. (On cloud nine) Listen one more time. I'm doing...(fine) Up here. (On cloud nine) Dennis: Folks now they tell me. They say, give yourself a chance and don't let life pass you by. But the world around you is a rat race. Where only the strong survive. It's a dog-eat-dog world and that ain't no lie. (Ain't no lie) Listen, it ain't even safe no more, to walk the streets at night. Eddie: I'm doing fine on Cloud 9. Dennis: Let me tell you about Cloud 9. (Cloud 9)Paul: You can be what you wanna be. (Cloud 9)Dennis: You ain't got no responsibility. (Cloud 9)Eddie: Every man, every man is free. (Cloud 9)Dennis: You're a million miles from reality. (Reality) I'm gonna sail (up, up) higher (up, up... up, up and away) Cloud 9. Eddie: I wanna say I love the life I live. And I'm gonna live the life I love. Up here on Cloud 9. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, I'm riding high on Cloud 9. Dennis: You're as free as a bird in flight. (Cloud 9)Melvin: There's no diff'rence between day and night. (Cloud 9)Eddie: It's a world of love and harmony. (Cloud 9)Dennis: You're a million miles from reality. (Reality) I'm gonna sail (up, up) higher (up, up... up, up and away) Cloud 9. Paul: You can be what you wanna be. (Cloud 9)Dennis: You ain't got no responsibility. (Cloud 9)Eddie: Every man in his mind is free. (Cloud 9)Dennis: You're a million miles from reality. (Cloud 9)Paul: You can be what you wanna be. Boom-boom-boom-boom-boom... Eddie: I'm feeling fine on Cloud 9 http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/The-Temptations/Cloud-Nine.html |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:15 PM Off-Topic I never liked that Cloud Nine song, but it does fit the theme of this thread. However, I'm going to do my spirit a favor and make up for reminding me-and you-of that Cloud Nine song by posting a link to a YouTube video of another song the Temptations perform that I really like-though it has nothing whatsoever to do with the #9: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYO7Avah1k8&feature=related Temptations - Old man river Enjoy! |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Rowan Date: 20 Jul 08 - 06:15 PM A counting recitation from my youth (taught me in 1962 by a girlfriend who became a Carmelite nun) went; One for sorrow, two for joy, three for a girl, four for a boy, five for a wish, six for a kiss, seven for silver, eight for gold, nine for a story that's never been told. Like the "Tinker, tailor, soldier, sailor ..." series it was used to count buttons on your shirtfront, successive sneezes etc. It didn't progress beyond nine but I subsequently heard another version that went only up to six; One for sorrow, two for joy, three for a girl, four for a boy, five for a letter, six for something better. I learned both in Melbourne. Cheers, Rowan |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 20 Jul 08 - 07:02 PM Rowan, thanks for returning this thread back to the subject of songs or children's rhymes that mention #9. I think the reason why there are so many songs & rhymes that mention the number nine is that there are a lot of other English words that rhyme with "nine"-like "wine"; "fine"; "shine"; :line"; "mine", "behind"-the direction or the part of the body ;o) Then there's "time", a word that doesn't really rhyme with "fine" but pretends to sometimes. For example, check out this partner handclap rhyme: Verses: When Billy Boy was one, he learned to suck his thumb. Thumb Billy, Thumb Billy, half past one. When Billy Boy was two, he learned to tie his shoe. Shoe Billy, Shoe Billy, half past two. When Billy Boy was three, he learned to climb a tree. Tree Billy, Tree Billy, half past three. When Billy Boy was four, he learned to close the door. Door Billy, Door Billy, half past four. When Billy Boy was five, he learned to swim and dive. Dive Billy, Dive Billy, half past five. When Billy Boy was six, he learned to pick up sticks. Sticks Billy, Sticks Billy, half past six. When Billy Boy was seven, he learned to pray to heaven. Heaven Billy, Heaven Billy, half past seven. When Billy Boy was eight, he learned to roller skate. Skate Billy, Skate Billy, half past eight. When Billy Boy was nine, he learned to tell the time. Time Billy, Time Billy, half past nine. When Billy Boy was ten, he learned to catch the hens. Hens Billy, Hens Billy, half past ten. Cross down, then end! -Jackie; 8/28/2007; http://cocojams.com/handclap_rhymes.htm [Italics added by me for emphasis] Here's the performance direction that Jackie sent in to my website Cocojams along with this example: "Two people sit facing each other. I'll do my best to describe the handclap motions... Cross down - start by crossing both hands over your chest, with your finger tips touching your shoulders, then uncross them and smack your thigh's. Your left hand will smack your left thigh and right hand, right thigh. The next step is to clap. When you clap, you begin singing the song. (For example: (cross down) (Clap), When Billy Boy was one..... (now begin claping with your partner - your right hand claps with their right hand - then you clap your hands together, next your left hand claps with your partner's left hand, then you clap your hands together. Repeat until the verse is over. When you start the next verse, begin again with cross down, slap your thighs, When Billy Boy was two...etc." |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: topical tom Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:07 AM I believe that there is a song "Illinois Central Number Nine" but I can find neither the chords nor the lyrics. Is it known by a different title? |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: semi-submersible Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:19 AM ... This old man, he played nine He played knick-knack on a vine With a knick-knack paddy-whack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home ... (I'm not sure but I think I may have occasionally substituted "some twine," thinking of piles of cut-off twine from the family net shed where fishing nets are repaired. I know I modified the lyrics by singing "running home" instead of "rolling home" in verse five, after he plays his knocking game on a hive: I imagined he'd provoke the bees.) I don't know what ages I and my two siblings would have been, or where we learned it, but probably from adults or a printed/recorded source as there weren't many opportunities to play with other children in our neck of the woods. We were born 1966 to 1970 and grew up in a small rural BC (Canada) coast community. - - - One rhyme we probably did learn from other children was Eenie Meenie Miney Mo. The last line was always the same as the first. The "n-word" was used in the second line, but "tiger" was sometimes heard. I remember feeling uncomfortable, torn between using what I considered the original version, and the inoffensive variation. I don't believe I had yet met anyone of that ethnicity, but I had become aware the word was pejorative. - - - Azizi, you wrote above that "Sock it to me" probably originated as a sexualised expression. Does this phrase predate the use of "sock" as a synonym for "hit"? If not, I'd expect to see the phrase "sock it to [someone]" in use first in boxing circles. It could be onomatopoeic (imitating the sound of a blow) or (much less likely) could refer to the gloves worn to protect a fighter's hands. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: semi-submersible Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:42 AM As far as I know no-one ever imitated those modifications to This Old Man lyrics. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:23 AM Neil, I was being imprecise in my writing. I agree with you that "sock it" didn't start off as a sexualized phrase. Rather it appears that its earliest meaning was "to punch", or hit hard. I'm sure I don't need to explain how that meaning became sexualized. I'm not sure if the etymology for "socks", the clothing item that is used to cover feet comes from the same source word as the action word "sock". Here's a link to an interesting & informative article about the history of the word "sock" and the phrase "sock it to me": http://everything2.com/e2node/Sock%2520it%2520to%2520me Here's an excerpt from that article: Sock it to me is certainly American in origin; how it got from meaning in the sense of 'tell me, give it to me, hit me, shoot,' to a phrase that was "at once meaningless and very meaningful and carried - among other ideas - a vague, implied sexual invitation" has a "Verrrry interesstink!" story to tell.... Outrageously popular it transitioned television entertainment from the stand up comedy on The Ed Sullivan Show to the next generation of the related variety show Saturday Night Live. This wasn't the first time the phrase was used of course. It dates from some time around the 1850s and the earliest example in print that's been discovered so far is from a book published in 1866 about the American Civil War including the following quote: "Now then, tell General Emory if they attack him again to go after them, and to follow them up, and to sock it to them, and to give them the devil". One linguist gives his opinion about this particular source: Pretty clearly this comes from a much older low slang use of the word sock, meaning to hit or punch, to give somebody a heavy blow, to assault or beat someone. There was also the phrase to give someone sock, to give someone a thrashing. These date back to the late seventeenth century in Britain, and were presumably carried to the USA by emigrants... The Queen of Soul stood the phrase completely on it's head with her late sixties legendary version that has since become a legendary success with its never-to-be forgotten "sock-it-to-me" background part; to many it turned into an anthem for women's rights..." * -snip- * This is a reference to R&B singer Aretha Franklin's recording of the song "Respect" that repeats the phrase "sock it to me". My sense is that it was the tremendous popularity of that Aretha Franklin record that led to the phrase "sock it to me" being interpreted by children {and adults} to mean the non-sexual command "Give it to me!" |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: topical tom Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:38 AM My memory finally kicked in! The true title is Tennessee Central Number Nine |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: semi-submersible Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:00 PM "Give sock" meant "thrash"? I wonder if there was any conflation of "sock" with "sack" in a military or industrial context in the early 19th century (sack of a conquered town, sackcloth for rough use)? I understand "sack" is current schoolyard slang meaning to deliver a blow - to the scrotal area, that is. "Sock" as footwear could conceivably be influenced by "stocking," though probably not derived from it since it would be hard to lose a "t" in mid-syllable. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: GUEST,Meadowmuskrat Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM Billy Ed Wheeler's Coal Tattoo also references the #9 coal, whatever that designation means? |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:20 PM Here's a CD that's bound to have at least one or two other Number Nine train songs: Railroad Songs and Ballads CD [Library of Congress} Price: $17.00 Availability: Usually ships in 3-4 business days. Product #: 21202052 -snip- Unfortunately, there's a notation that says it's out of stock. For the sake of the fokloric record, I'm taking the liberty to repost this CD's summary. Besides, if you stretched things a little bit {okay, a lot}, you could say the summary fits the theme of this thread because there's is a number nine included in it. {Hint-it's one of the years noted that the songs were collected}. "The history and the mystery of the railroad ring out from this 22-track collection of American railroad songs and music from the Archive of Folk Culture at the Library of Congress. Recorded by 16 different collectors between 1936 and 1959, the collection includes songs about the construction of the railroad and railroading as craft, as well as songs that tap the symbolic significance of the train. Train calls, track-lining chants, stories of famous train wrecks and instrumental train imitations are joined by spirituals using train imagery and folk descendants of popular compositions about the railroad. Mrs. Minta Morgan, vocals / Warde H. Ford, vocals / Henry Hankins, vocals / Aunt Molly Jackson, vocals / Blaine Stubblefield, vocals, guitar / Nobel B. Brown, vocals / Lester A. Coffee, vocals / Austin Harmon, vocals, banjo / Clarence H. Wyatt, vocals, guitar / Russell Wise, fiddle / Mr. White, guitar / The Ridge Rangers, stringband/ Mrs. Esco Kilgore, vocals / Will Wright, vocals / Merle Lovell, vocals, guitar / Jim Holbert, vocals / Joe Harris, vocals, guitar / Kid West, vocals, mandolin / 22 tracks on CD include: Calling Trains; The Boss of the Section Gang; Jerry Will You Ile that Car; Lining Track; Roll On Buddy; Way Out in Idaho; Oh, I'm a Jolly Irishman Winding on the Train; The Engineer; George Allen; The Wreck of the Royal Palm; Train Blues; The New River Train; The Train is Off the Track; Gonna Lay My Head Down on Some Railroad Line; I Rode Southern, I Road L. & N.; The Lightning Express; Railroad Rag; The Railroader; The T. & P. Line; The Dying Hobo; The Big Rock Candy Mountains; I'm Going Home on the Morning Train" http://www.loc.gov/shop/index.php?action=cCatalog.showItem&cid=13&scid=70&iid=868 |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Jay777 Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:20 AM Re your lengthy post of 19th July timed at 07.06 am, Azizi: I'm new to Mudcat, and hadn't realise that your original post was just a game. On re-reading it, I see you mention "fun and games", but I'd assumed you were genuinely seeking songs containing the number 9- silly me! My first post, re Fourpence a Day, was off the top of my head. I was trying to be helpful by later referring to the DT. I realise now you are an old hand at this forum, so didn't need to be referred to the DT, as a newbie might. I am sorry if you thought this was advocating "cheating". That was certainly not my intention; I just misunderstood the nature of the thread. I apologise for any offence, and if I spoiled this game for others. I'll try not to make any more mistakes, but hey- I'm only human (but NOT a cheat)! |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:57 AM Jay777, one of the problems with communicating on the Internet is that the written words can't convey inflections and it's difficult for people to convey nuances because people can't see each other's body language. Tn my opinion, difficulties with communication are multiplied on international forums such as Mudcat for a host of reasons. On a number of Mudcat threads people have talked about and given examples of how people in the US and people in Great Britain, Australia, and other English speaking nations-even the US and Canada-are sometimes "seperated by a common language". Before I started posting on Mudcat [and I wouldn't consider myself either a "newbie" or an "oldie" Mudcat member-I guess I'm an "inbetweenie" since I started posting as a guest in August 2004 and joined the following month-and Mudcat has been around since 1997]. But I digressed. What I was going to say was that before I started posting on Mudcat, I didn't realize that English speaking folks around the world not only have different slang/colloquial expressions, but that a person's culture of origin Jay777, let me try to be clear- I absolutely meant no ill will to you to say that you were "cheating" when you referred readers and fellow posters in this thread to the DigiTrad. I recognize that my use of that word was ill advised, and I'm sorry that I used it. My use of the word "cheating" refers back [in that in-group communication way, to my "primary" interest on Mudcat-children's playground rhymes. By using that word I was trying to evoke the "feel" of how a child may say that another child is cheating when that second child moves-even if it's just slightly-away from how the first child thinks a game should be played. Given all the difficulties with inter-group communication that I listed above, I now realize that it was a mistake to even jokenly refer to another person, especially one who I don't know, and who doesn't know me, as "cheating". For the record, all of the category threads that I start contain {and will contain} elements of lightheared fun {and games} and of serious research. Part of what I love about Mudcat threads is that a person never knows how people will interprete the presented topic of that thread, what tangential topics will be discussed on that thread, and what the general "feel" will be of that thread. I like to view threads as informal conversations. And I don't mind if the conversation goes off-topic, since {at least in my experience Ha! Ha! conversations have a tendency to go all over the place in real life and on this discussion forum}. As long as the conversation is interesting and I'm cool with it [in this context "cool" means I'll okay with it; it's fine with me]. Not that it matters what I feel, though I take believe being the thread starter does mean that a person has some responsiblility to that thread. To enumerate what I think those would be a whole 'nuther digression. So I'll leave that for another time. When I started this thread, I felt that the "vibe" on Mudcat was very somber, which was understandable given the tragedies and losses that several Mudcatters had just experienced. I started this thread, in part, to help lighten that somberness,even for a short while. It's therefore ironic that this thread is much more serious than I expected it to be. As the thread starter, I take responsibility for the confusion about whether this thread was meant to be fun or serious research. Let me therefore state for the record that it can be both. Jay777, you said that you are only HUMAN. It's nice to meet you. I am also human, although sometimes I've been known think of myself as a goddess. :o) Note: I don't really think I'm a goddess and I really don't want to be treated better than anyone else. I was only trying to be witty, which should show you that I'm not really good at witticisms. But I'm trying. And I think that's worth something. If we were in the same place Jay777, I'd ask that we shake hands and move on from this confusion. I hope that you would do that, and that we-you and I-and others will share some good times and some interesting information on this place that we call Mudcat. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:10 AM I went back and re-read this entire thread, and realize that I also owe an apology to semi-submersible for somehow confusing your Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:19 AM question/comments about the origin & meanings of the word "sock" a comment from NeilD. Was it a full moon when this thread started? Or was Mercury in Retrograde? There must be some reason-besides my mind being scattered in all directions even more so than usual-for me making all these mistakes. Please accept my apology, semi-submersible. I'll try to be more careful from now on. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: GUEST,CrazyEddie Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:54 AM Rowan, 20Jul08 06.15 "One for sorrow" etc. is used when you see magpies. You will rarely see very many, but I knew someone, who, if he saw a single magpye (Sorrow) would not go home until he had see another (Joy). I always thaough this was cheating, as i thought you needed to see whatever number together, not sequentially. Clementine: "Drove she ducklings to the water Every morning just at NINE Hit her foot against a splinter Fell inmto the foaming brine. Oh My Darling... |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Rowan Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:04 PM CrazyEddie, would you be writing from the UK? I ask because I've encountered differences of understandings about magpies between the UK and the Oz countrysides. The ones in Oz can be aggressive during nest-building season (when testes make up 1/6th of the body weight of an adult male) but are usually solo or in pairs. Excepting the adolescents, when bands of them form and "hoon around the landscape" (seriously, their behaviour is just like adolescent people). In Oz, I've not heard the "One for sorrow..." applied to groups of animals. generally, let alone to magpies specifically. Which leads me to wonder (inquisitively) whether you're describing a family tradition or a regional one. Cheers, Rowan |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: dj bass Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:58 AM Libba Cotten's Freight Train: When I'm dead and buried deep Seen no more round Chestnut Steet Lay me down by that number nine I wanna hear that train go by dj |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: NINE POUND HAMMER (Merle Travis) From: GUEST,Joseph de Culver City Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:28 PM This one has a couple: Nine pound hammer (merle travis) This Nine Pound Hammer, Is a little too heavy, For my side, baby for my side. I'm a-goin' to the mountain, Gonna see my baby. But i ain't comin' back, No. I ain't comin' back. Roll on, buddy, Don't ya roll so slow. How, can I roll, When my wheels won't go. Well. it's a long way to Harlan, It's a long way to Hazard, Just to get a little brew, Just to get a little brew. When I'm long gone, Don't you make my tombstone, Outta number nine coal, Outta number nine coal. some others: '96 Tears'-? and the Mysterians 'The One After 909'-The Beatles '99 and a Half Just Won't Do' |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 09 - 06:03 PM soul sista number nine sock it to me one more time said umpf un-gowa we got the powa siad umpf un-gowa we got the powa. little sally walker was walkin down the street. she didn't know what to go so she jumped in front of me she said go on girl do your thang do your thang do your thang go on girl do your thang do your thang stop |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: oldhippie Date: 05 Apr 09 - 06:32 PM Don't forget: Piano Man Its nine o'clock on a Saturday The regular crowd shuffles in There's an old man sitting next to me Makin' love to his tonic and gin... |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 09 - 06:39 PM Devil's Nine Questions (Child #1) |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 05 Apr 09 - 06:40 PM Guest 05 Apr 09 - 06:03 PM thanks for posting that updated version of the children's game song "Little Sally Walker". I've wondered why the soul sister in songs is always number 9 instead of number 8 or number 3 or some other number. Does anyone know? Also, thanks oldhippie for your contribution to this thread that I'd forgotten about. Keep more examples coming! :o) |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Joe_F Date: 05 Apr 09 - 08:10 PM In addition, Clementine's shoes were no. 9. |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 05 Apr 09 - 08:56 PM Here's another example of "soul sister number 9" that I clipped from a post I wrote in this thread: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes I'll be. be Walking down the street, Ten times a week. Un-gawa. Un-gawa {baby} This is my power. What is the story? What is the strike? I said it, I meant it. I really represent it. Take a cool cool Black to knock me down. Take a cool cool Black to knock me out. I'm sweet, I'm kind. I'm soul sister number nine. Don't like my apples, Don't shake my tree. I'm a Castle Square Black Don't mess with me. [Source: John Langstaff, Carol Langstaff "Shimmy Shimmy Coke-Ca-Pop!, A Collection of City Children's Street Games & Rhymes {Garden City, New York, Double Day & Co; p. 57; 1973} |
|
Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes From: Azizi Date: 05 Apr 09 - 08:59 PM Joe_F, thanks for posting that info about "Oh My Darlin' Clementine"'s shoe size. I guess once upon a time, women who wore size nine shoes were considered to have big feet. But I don't think that size is such a big deal nowadays. Fwiw, I wear size 9 1/2. :o) |
| Share Thread: |