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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Teribus Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:07 AM Some questions relating to your post above Big Dick. What have the, "the residents of the area" done about it if they knew that those working the beds were illegals, and I dare say that the vast bulk of those, "large, identifyable, refrigerated trucks disrupting the roads." were completely ligitimate. It should also be remembered that, "The authorities, namely the police, immigration, social security and councils", can only do something about it if the matter is brought to their attention - at the time and with some form of hard evidence to go on. So please do not say that they, "have done sweet f.a. about it." Unless you know for a fact that these activities have been reported and that the agencies you referred to refused or failed to respond. In fact they had a blitz on it earlier on in the month and detained 37 illegal immegrant cocklers. For those agencies to act seriously, "about gangmasters, illegal immigrants, snake head gangs, associated crime and social security fraud" then they need information - The residents of the area would appear to be the best place individuals to provide this. If they do then, we will not have to discuss in the future. To our Born again Scouser Guest: Your inverted snobbery and class envy are showing, the introduction of which lends nothing to the point you are seeking to make. As someone has pointed out above - Cockles? The diet of the upper-middle classes and the petit-bourgeoisie - hardly. The immigrations rules for entry into the UK are no more racist than any other country's and a damn sight less stringent than most. The reason that Dave Bryant didn't find any shellfish in Morecombe, is probably due to the fact that that less than 10% of shellfish harvested in the UK goes to the domestic market, the main markets being, Holland, France, Belgium and Spain. Five arrests have been made, all were among the survivors, rescued from the sands. The pick-up used by this group has also been recovered by the police, who expect to make further arrests soon. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:17 AM You're nit-picking, Teribus. No-one did anytning about it, notwithstanding that what was going on was clearly an abomination by any reckoning. God knows what miseries these desperate people fled from, but it surely could have been no worse than the welcome that waited them in Britain. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:19 AM And hey, you guys, it's MORECAMBE. As with the comic genius from whom it takes its name. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:16 AM Teribul, If you would care to read the detailed article in yesterday`s "Sunday Telegraph" (page 19), you will find much justification in my comments concerning, pre-knowledge, threats, intimidation, official inactivity, lax licensing, zero deportations, zero gangmaster prosecutions. Need I go on. Similar activities are going on all over the country and are regularly reported in the press. For anyone in who is not aware must be in need of counselling. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Teribus Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:21 AM Peter K (Fionn) Nit-picking? Or purely looking at things realistically? The Authorities have tried to crack down on this twice according to BBC reports (Not by Gilligan). Take a look on any beach and tell me who should be there and who shouldn't. Cockling is licenced but it is all but impossible to regulate and police - that is the reality. You ask the question - "God knows what miseries these desperate people fled from," Probably the same as around a billion of their fellow countrymen find tolerable. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 09 Feb 04 - 10:17 AM Thinking about the future, it seems to me that there are agencies besides the police who have a part to play. One of these is the Inland Revenue, who besides being responsible for collecting Tax and National Insurance are also responsible for policing the minimum wage. Part of the problem here is that since the old Contributions Agency (which used to be part of the Department of Social Security) merged with the Inland Revenue in 1999, there are, I'm told, far fewer criminal convictions for NI and minimum wage offences than there used to be. One of the reasons for this is the IR culture of confidentiality which allows much less co-operation with other government departments than used to occur when the DSS used to handle these sort of questions. Also, criminal prosecutions in the Inland Revenue are mainly initiated by their Special Compliance Office which won't take action unless it is sure of a conviction and there is a decent chance of a large return of unpaid tax and NI. They won't go after this sort of operation because there isn't enough money in it and the effort and manpower involved can't be justified. I think one place to start would be to write to MPs demanding that more resources be put into chasing the sort of people who run these sort of rackets and that they be subject to criminal, rather than civil, prosecution. The 'Guardian' today states that raids have been carried out in the Merseyside area and some evidence has been siezed. However, even if there are convictions they are only likely to be for minor employment law infringements which are only likely to attract modest penalties. If this is the case, then as with the Zeebrugge disaster in 1987, the law on corporate manslaughter needs to be revisited, at the very least. I'm getting the impression that the police are doing their best but the problem seems to be that the law doesn't seem to provide for adequate punishment. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Jon Date: 09 Feb 04 - 12:20 PM I see this BBC article says 5 people have been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter so maybe there is some hope of stronger charges. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,JTT Date: 09 Feb 04 - 01:51 PM What an ill-tempered series of postings! Today on the TV it was saying that Morecambe Bay is empty of cocklers, because it is being treated as a giant crime scene; they showed mounted policewomen patrolling and neighbours putting bunches of flowers on the sands. They also said that the crowded houses where the Chinese workers were living in shocking conditions have been deserted in haste; and TV footage showed rooms in an indescribable state. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: dianavan Date: 10 Feb 04 - 01:44 AM Teribus: Five arrests have been made, all were among the survivors, rescued from the sands... Isn't this a bit like victimizing the victim? Do you really think that any of the people out there were in any way responsible for this situation? C'mon - the people responsible wouldn't be caught dead in a place like that. And Terribus, don't forget, many of these people are sold to the snakeheads, etc. by family members to pay drug debts. Others are lured by myths of an America where the streets are paved with gold. d |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Teribus Date: 10 Feb 04 - 04:28 AM dianavan, Not victimizing the victims at all, some scumbag gathers together a work-force of illegals to work a cockle-bed, do you honestly believe that they are just turned loose to - a. Get there by themselves b. Just pick up what they are supposed to be doing (on job training self-taught) c. Gather up what has been harvested and transport it back to their masters. I somehow doubt it, while maybe not senior management in the organisation, those at present under arrest will be those who were part of the scheme and who can provide links to those who were actually in charge of it. While myths may exist, "of an America where the streets are paved with gold." Morecambe is one hell of a long way from those streets. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:10 AM Dianavan, I gather that two of the people detained were English, did not leave the shore and were found in a van nearby. Gangmaster`s lieutenants maybe? With the economic industrial boom going on in China one would have thought these souls could do better at home in an environment they know, a culture they know, no language barriers and nearer to their families? |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Rustic Rebel Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:34 AM I have to be honest, I've never thought of illegals and laws in other countries. I only have wondered how we- in the US can possibly justify NOT letting people come in, because most of us, or our ancestors came from somewhere else. Is it a problem like here, where our government only allows a certain amount of people? I apologize for being dumb, will someone enlighten me? Is it a problem in Britain to go to the immigration office and ...sign up? This thread is very enlightening for me. I am sorry for all the folks that struggle to find the green grass on the other side of the hill. I also may be sounding dumb and I understand that people think there are only so many jobs and only so much land to go around, but, I think there is still plenty of earth everywhere, to share. I think as a human, having little choice to live with the consequences of being human, we have to deal with what the human race has evolved into, therefore living with one another on such a small piece of space is inevitable. Deal with it, live with it, share it. Peace, (small piece to all) Rustic Sorry if this is a thread drift~ quest~tion. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Mr Happy Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:34 AM Well if you think so, have a look here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3472691.stm |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 10 Feb 04 - 07:28 AM Rustic Rebel, We are informed that England has become the most densely populated country in Europe which can only be the result of decades of immigration from Commonwealth countries, and more recently, emerging Eastern and Asian lands. Our government is quite happy to encourage the building of new houses to the tune of hundreds of thousands and spread concrete at an alarming rate. Also. it is envisaged that most of this will occur in the South East which does not bode well for our "green and pleasant land" (Apologies to Blake) |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: greg stephens Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:19 AM A peristent myth is growing up, and you can find it in these postings, that the unfortunate victims of this tragedy were working for £1 a day. Now, I obviously havent had the opportunity to examine the payslips of the people concerned, but I have to say that I think this is extremely unlikely. I work and socialise with a lot of refugee/asylum-seekers, so in the general course of life I hear a lot about the various underbelly/crap/black economytype jobs that are going. And I would guess that,even allowing for accommodation/transport "contributions" being creamed off by the bosses, you'ld have to be a helluva slow picker to only manage £1 a day cockling. Most crap jobs,I would guess, by the law of supply and demand, are in the £20-40 per day range. This is not to minimise what has happened, just trying to inform the debate a bit. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 10 Feb 04 - 06:41 PM I doubt if the gang bosses in this case gave payslips. If they had 'borrowed' money from the snakeheads for there payment to be smuggles to the UK this would have to be paid back. Additionaly as most of these people were from provinces in poorer areas of China, they would be unlikely to speak English. In fact they would probably have to work through someone who understood their dialect as they probably would not speak standard Chinese (Putonghua or Mandarin as it is also known)to a normal level of conversation. As such they would rely on the bosses to tell them what was happening, no way they could cross check the info given. Yes they could try doing a runner but the they would also be frightened that some form of revenge would be exacted on their families here in China. That is not unknown. In most cases of smuggling by snakeheads it is run as a business whereby they do take most of the money and little remains in the hands of the Chinese workers. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Folkiedave Date: 10 Feb 04 - 07:20 PM To Greg There was an article in the Sat/Sun broadsheets that gave the rate as £15.00 per bag (not sure of size/weight.probably 100 lbs......10 kilos or so....) of cockles minus £4.00 fee and sometimes minus other unspecified costs..............it was possible to do two bags a tide......if you lived............. To Guest Hugh....... Apart from a couple of years when immigration bills were going through from memory 1960/1961 and 1967....GB has always been a net exporter of people. Think of the 500,000 in Spain........(300,000 in Andalucia alone) and you start to get the idea.......and this is without Australia, Canada.....etc.... Name a comment about immigrants of any sort..........and I can show you a similar quote from the past century or so describing a totally different sort of immigrants....... No Irish need apply comes to mind. Dave www.collectorsfolk.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Folkiedave Date: 10 Feb 04 - 07:22 PM I may have got the kilo translation wrong there........... Let me try another pill........... Dave |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: dianavan Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:38 PM oops - Morecambe is a long way from America but I think you get the idea. Myths are myths. We are not talking about well-educated people. When your life is hard, you probably believe just about anything is better. When you are so far down in the heirarchy of organized crime to actually be in the company of illegal migrants, you are not likely to "rat" on the bosses? Very doubtful. Especially when their families would be endangered if they did talk. Yes, I do see these people as victims. Rustic Rebel: It is never dumb to ask an honest question. I do not know about English immigration policies but in Canada its not that easy to get in. Once in, though, its hard to get them out if they are found to be involved in criminal activity. To get in you need money in the bank, a sponsor, a job or family. As far as I know, the only other way is if you claim refugee status. In that case you have to prove that you are in mortal danger. Canada actually encourages immigration because of our low rate of population growth. We need more employed people to sustain the social security plan. Its not that easy to "sign up" if you don't speak the language. The paper work is overwhelming and then you have to jump through the hoops. I guess you might say that because many try to take a short cut, they are not entirely innocent. In my opinion, they are victims, nevertheless. d |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: pdq Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:54 PM Rustic Rebel...minor point, but the United States allows more LEGAL immigration than all other countries on planet earth COMBINED. The goal has always been to keep a common language and to assimilate the new people without losing our national identity. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:09 AM The Daily Telegraph quotes a couple of survivors as saying they were paid £6-£7 an hour, which seems to confirm Greg's point. Shanghaiceltic, you said you were waiting for reaction from China's Foreign Ministry. The following extract is from a story now posted on the BBC website: "The Chinese Government attaches great importance to the incident," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue said. "We are ready to work with the British side to jointly crack down on international criminal activities, like the illegal smuggling of people." Chinese security officials are expected to come to Britain, and a law enforcement official is set to be posted to the UK's Beijing embassy. Ms Zhang said Chinese diplomatic staff in Britain were also working with the British police to identify the dead and any missing, and to help the injured. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:20 AM Thanks for that Peter, Things move slowly here but the new top man Hu Jin Tao seems to be more of an operator than expected, and it will be him that this is coming from. I cannot get the BBC website as it is blocked here in China, but bizzarly I can get the BBC live on broadband. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:57 AM Folkiedave, We are informed the population of England was about 10 million in medi-aeval times, 30-40 million in the 1700-1800`s, 59 Million at the moment going on 62 million in the next decade. This has got to be the result of natural population development and net emigration. Blunkett is credited with saying there is no limit!! |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Folkiedave Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:29 AM And who do you think populated.......... USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc......... Until well into this century Ireland (whether we like it or not) was part of the UK. They "exported" about 3 million. Huge numbers of Scots left at the time of the clearances, etc..............now we go to Spain etc.... Dave |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 11 Feb 04 - 12:10 PM Look at the figures Dave. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Feb 04 - 01:58 PM Yesterday, a Saudi plane went down with now 45 dead. The pilot has prevented a bigger accident by clever steering. Wrong thread? No. The flight was full of foreign workers who just had to fly out of Saudi Arabia for a very short time in order to renew their work permission (fly out, renew permit, fly in). That was the only (silly) reason for this flight. Being a foreign worker in most countries (for differing reasons) is less safe than being a native worker. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,09085623 Date: 12 Feb 04 - 08:15 AM There's another rescue operation going on a the minute, according to BBC News. Same place, same problem |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,009085623 Date: 12 Feb 04 - 08:57 AM Forgot the link, didn't I? |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: ard mhacha Date: 12 Feb 04 - 02:27 PM Geraldine Smith MP for Morecambe was on Channel 4 News stating, that she warned the Emmigration authorities six months ago of an impending disaster, if nothing was done about the cocklers. She was told by Immagration that they hadn`t the resources to act. To-day it was reported that another squad of cocklers were rescued from the Bay, this time they were reported to be English. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,cujimmy Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:02 PM Just heard this song on BBC folk awards sang by Christy - this stood out for me among all the other songs and achievements - very well done everyone - but this is outstanding - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rR7wPofjbE |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:20 PM I saw Christy on the Folk Awards too - just wonderful. Here is Kevin Littlewood. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: LesB Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:00 AM Whilst it's dissapointing that Kevin's song didn't win, at least it brought it to a wider audience. Kevin is a resident singer at our club Bothy Folk Club as is Chris (who plays the fiddle on the video). Cheers Les |
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