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BS: Racism: Why?
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Subject: BS: Racism: Why? From: Mr Happy Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM After hearing this storyhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/7409097.stm on the news at the w/end, it occured to me that I, [& maybe others] don't know/understand why some people are so intent on furthering the 'white supremacy' cause & behave in a totally unacceptable way towards foreigners, particularly those with different skin tones and cultures. Here's Compare & contrast, if you will |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Donuel Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:11 AM I would be happy to explain my social immune system and genetic tribal roots of racism theory, But some of you would stab me in the back and cry racism. (sort of kidding) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: kendall Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:13 AM The basis of all hatred is fear. Nature loves uniformity, and if any animal in a group of its own kind starts acting odd, the others will shun and even kill it. You would think man is above that, but alas, we are also animals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Mr Happy Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:20 AM Here's WikiP's definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:20 AM http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6544076 The link above will take you to an NPR interview that aired last week. It's about a professor who did a study that proves we are all racists in the core of our being. Some hide it better than others, but everyone has it, and Michael Shermer thinks he can prove it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Donuel Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM I agree that everyone has some version of racism. The more you know this the more enlightened your choices become. Those on the fringes calim they are devout racisits or that they are utterly racist free. As for the manslaughter case, it is quite similar to wife abuse cases that end in the murder of the abuser. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:43 AM You would think man is above that, but alas, we are also animals. If we were animals we'd still be slobbering in the mire. And it's a fine line between reason and excuse, however so motivated in terms of such cynical pessimism regarding the human condition, perilous as it may be. However, this sort of thing is by no means typical, nor yet even inevitable; I'd say it was as anomalous and remarkable as it is absolutely appalling - certainly to most of us, who would only wish to contextualise such an obvious tragedy, in every sense, within the overall condition of racism in the UK. If nature loved uniformity there would be no diversity; the point and purpose of life is accommodation in all things, and as cultural and cognitive beings (the very reasons we are most certainly not animals) then we must strive ever more resolutely to that end. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:50 AM PS - We're also individuals; truly citizens of but two places - the first being our own skins (whatever the colour) and the second being any point the planet which gives us the necessary atmospheric pressure to maintain our integrity (pressurised suits notwithstanding). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Amos Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM Humans have a deep need to make others wrong in order to feel right about themselves. Race provides an easy way to do this. Those who are the most afraid of their own "wrongness" will be the most assertive about finding those faults in others they most detest in themselves. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Stu Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM Shine on - that BNP site was sobering reading. What a bunch of complete wankers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Paul Burke Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM I suspect it's a quite complex matter. It's probably a built-in human instinct to defend a territory. Humans are social animals, and when the population was small, you would know all the members of your group, so members of other groups would be easy to identify. But, at the same time, to exclude foreign groups would be a recipe for disaster- inbreeding would render the group very ill within a few generations. So you end up with loose coalitions of kin- groups, which interact in more-or-less ritualised ways. As population grows, the probability of encroaching on each other's territory grows, and developing over the millennia we find situatiions like New Guinea, where there was no possibility of spreading out, so tribes (extended kin- groups)were in a state of permanent, ritualised war. In modern society, there's no natural tribe- most people don't even know the occupants of next-door-but three except perhaps by sight. But with the instinct still in place, they have a need to categorise people into Fella-Him-Belong and the Stranger Man. It's understandable, if not defensible- the instinct is now pretty well useless, and almost anything that can be discerned as a difference can be used- language or accent, dress, hairstyle (especially facial), skin colour, habits, superstitions and customs. No Welshmen in the city after dark, no kilts or bagpipes, no Jews in the golf club... there's nothing new about it. It makes an easy appeal for unscrupulous politicians, and the disaffected are always on the lookout for somebody to blame for their woes. It's no coincidence that the BNP has its greatest success in areas of declining traditional indutry like Stoke on Trent and East Derbyshire - people there have a lot to be resentful about. The actual culprits- government and global money jugglers- are too remote to be real to people of limited vision, and its all too easy for them to take out their grudges on visible targets. In Britain, the real failure has been in government- particularly in the Labour Party, which has been happy to allow their voter base to blame illegal immigrants (code phrase for "wogs") and bogus asylum seekers (code word for "nig-nogs") for problems, while getting their own feet comfortably under the polished directors' tables. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM It could start with something as simple as rooting for your brother in a football game. And if your brother isn't playing, you root for your nephew, or your cousin's nephew, or the home town boy, of somebody from your state, or... And the futher you get from your immediate clan, the less enthusiastic you are, until you get far enough away that people don't even look like you anymore, and make you nervous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Bobert Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM Culture, education and civilization are the tools that man deals with unfounded fears... But those tools are not exclusive because without experience thay are all external... It's only thru experience that those external stimuli become internalized... It's no wonder that since desegregation of schools that we see more and more mixed racial marriages between people who were privildged to be educated in such schools... Now, if we could do a better job with housing and even the last tenant, the churches, we could really make some serious progress... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Stringsinger Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM It's easy to answer. The cultural history of the US starting with Native Americans. The economic problems of pre-Civil War South and the cotton industry. Old ideas die hard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Ed T Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM While we many reject racism in our concious minds, we may be impacted by racisism in our subconcious minds, where early life experiences and learned childhood messages are stored. Changing our subconcious beliefs (amny that impact our behavouur), is very difficult. Try the racism IAT test mentioned in the aricle: http://www.isnare.com/?aid=228626&ca=Society |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:13 PM Is there a link to the IAT test, or do we need to run it down? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Ed T Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:30 PM Directions are in the text, but, here it is more directly (I believe there are also other interesting tests at the site); https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/takeatest.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Rasener Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM I personally think that the biggest problem that faces this world, is the religious groups, not the colour of anybodies skin. They all live in peace, but all go to war for their God or leader. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Ed T Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:03 PM Is racism always based on skin colour? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Lox Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM I agree with Riginslinger, We all possess the instinct to mistrust or feel fearful of those who look different, observe unfamiliar cultural practices or submit to unfamiliar religious teachings. Just as it is natural to be curious about these differences, it is also natural to be a little afraid. Increased familiarity decreases both curiosity and fear, to the point that young kids growing up in multicultural environments and going to multicultural schools (as I did) find their parents curiosity a bit boring, and aren't afraid. Once you grow up however, regardless of your background, you make conscious choices as a mature intelligent adult. And the fundamental choice is: Either - listen to the instinct tht means you have an irrational fear of spiders, toothpicks, milk, homosexuals, other races ... etc ... etc ... Or - consciously decide to discriminate on intelligent grounds. Or in other words, like an evolved human being. I understand that to discriminate on grounds of what clothes people wear, or how ugly or pretty they are, or how fat or thin they are, or what race they are, is irrational and is less likely to be of practical use to me than intelligent considered discrimination based on individual character. (character not characteristics) I am also able to see out of my box and I understand that to discriminate on irrational grounds is not only impractical for me but it is also cruel and damaging to the lives of others who, as unfamiliar as they are, I credit with as much right to human rights as I have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Georgiansilver Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:35 PM AMOS nailed it in the 11.03 post. Mr Villan sir! Religious groups are often blamed for war but most wars surely are based on politics... religion is often used to mask the truth. I am not saying that many wars have not been fought on religious grounds but that there is an overexaggeration of their importance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Greg F. Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM 'scuse me, but I'm going to go listen to "South Pacific"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Ed T Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:56 PM Additionallym as Georgiansilver states, underneath the political is ofetn economics. Some folks that claim they are not racists, but are just realists and Observing real life experiences An example: something negative happens involving one's own race (ie a crime). It is seen as just an act of an individual. However, when the same act involves a person from less favoured race, it not seen as an act of individual...but an indicator of the chacteristics of the "less favoured" race the person is from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:59 PM It seems to me that there is more tension between religous groups than racial groups as well. In fact, it seems like a trend. Mankind seems to be making some headway with racism, while religious differences are taking up the slack. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 01 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM Racism, sexism, and religious intolerance are all seperate things but each may be a basis for discrimination. Both are learned from others (usually parents) at a young age. The tool is education of the young in a setting where races, sexes, and religions are mixed in a classroom where they learn to be friends from the beginning. There should be no tolerance for religious dogma or racism in education. Private schools based on either religious or cultural lines should be abolished. The children themselves will solve many of the worlds problems if their minds are not poisoned by adults, but after it happens the poison is almost impossible to remove. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Bill D Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:11 PM In barely a couple or 3 hundred years we humans have moved from a world where only a few people had much interaction with those of other cultures and ethnic groups, to a situation where people are moving about the world 'almost' at will, bringing language & cultural differences...and often, sudden changes in demographic patterns. In ***ALL*** societies there are those who cannot adapt...for various reasons. Sometimes they have good reason...sometimes not. Groups like the BNP in the UK and the KKK,,etc., in the US, simply take a "we won't TRY to adapt & get along" attitude. Hate & fear are easy...that's how we dealt with 'others' for many thousands of years. I'm afraid that, with expanding world population and international disputes being pursued with more & more complex weapons, it's gonna get worse.... I see no one from the UN has contacted me for my suggestions.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:11 PM "I'm afraid that, with expanding world population and international disputes being pursued with more & more complex weapons, it's gonna get worse...." It seems to me like the most important key is to get a handle on expanding world population. That would lower the tone of hostility a whole bunch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Bill D Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:36 PM Yes..population is the 'keystone' issue..meaning that, no matter what we do with other problems...pollution, global warming, education, medicine, energy... if we do not limit population, conflicts and hunger and frustration over lack of 'space', (both personal and national), will continue & get worse. 'Racism' is merely a side issue which could gradually ease if everyone felt like they had some control over the basics of food, shelter and 'identity'... meaning self-respect and such. The human race in general cannot continue to push the limits of survival and keep competing for food, water, space and resources....when they feel they are not getting a 'fair share', racism and other fear-based responses will follow. (and yeah...some will find ANY excuse...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Ed T Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:41 PM As to recism and more people moving around the world: Does strong assimilation with the dominant nations culture, or a multi-culturalism approach that strengthens the culture of an imigrant work better to stem racisism? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Riginslinger Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:12 AM Ed - I would certainly think the intermingling of culture would work to reduce the severity of racism, but it still seems to me that keeping the eye on the ball would include some means of controlling total human numbers, world wide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: akenaton Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:54 AM The problem seems to stem from our historical view of other races. They were always looked upon as things to be exploited...in America as slaves and in the various empires as second class citizens. We have never learned to appreciate other cultures, just to exploit them. The reason of course was and still is our desire to become "rich and powerful", even at the expense of our brothers and sisters. This attitude has also given birth to a reaction among the people subjected to racism or other forms of discrimination, which can be just as distructive. I strongly disagree with "insane beard" when he/she states with such certainty that we "are not animals". The human animal has constructed it's own mire, a thousand times more odious than the pig stye.............Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: jacqui.c Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:10 AM Over many years there have been various waves of strangers entering the UK. At one time or another they all came in for some racist attitudes. For many that stopped within a couple of generations, when the children began speaking with a local accent, because they were white and thus less easy to identify as 'strangers'. It may be more difficult for a lot of the more recent immigrants - I know of one guy who was told to "go back where you came from" and replied "What? Go back to Tottenham?" I found my racist core when, joking with my daughter and stepdaughter about the possibility of my daughter dating a black workmate, my stepdaughter said "Mmmm, brown babies!" That brought me up short and I really had to stop and think about why. I think that it was a genetic thing - the idea of my own family's racial identity being subsumed by what appeared to be a more dominant one. Brown eyes instead of blue, brown skins instead if the pale, easily sunburned skin that my family tends toward. Dark curly hair replacing the straight light or blonde hair. Facial features that would not reflect my own genetic inheritance. It was a gut reaction that I have had to come to terms with and which, to a degree, still remains within my subconscious. I daresay that it will be there for life and there will be times when I will have to be aware of and counter it. I now live as a 'foreigner', albeit one who is unidentifiable as such until I speak and, even then, my language is very similar to that of the indigenous population and my accent is enjoyed by most. To date I have had no problem with anyone questioning my place in my new society. Appearance does make a difference, it seems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Lox Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:50 AM The solution to racism is education. People who know that the reasons for economic and political uncertainty are complex and involve many factors of which race is one of the most insignificant, are less likely to be swayed by racist arguments and therefore less likely to blame a convenient scapegoat for their misfortunes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM The more I look at the phenomenon of racism the more I come to understand that it has an economic basis. Although I have no doubt a certain degree of xenophobia is part of the human condition, I also believe that certain elites within societies have been, and still are, quite prepared to exploit and exacerbate this low level 'fear of strangers' for their own ends. What's worse, 'strangers' are often not really strangers at all but easily identifiable groups within societies who can be isolated and demonised. A classic example is the Jews of Europe who were victimised for centuries. They tended to be, on average, economically more successful than their Christian neighbours so various Christian myths were invoked against them in order to steal their wealth. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries these myths transformed into the vile nonsense of "scientific racism" - which, of course, led to the Jews being robbed, dispossessed and murdered. Look at any example of racism in history and it tends to have an economic basis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: kendall Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:24 PM When I said, "All hatred is based in fear, I was not giving my personal opinion, but rather the collective wisdom of countless therapists and other shrinks.I just happen to think it makes sense. When I said, "Nature loves uniformity, I was speaking of the rules inside any particular species." Not a general rule that applies across species. Chickens don't care if a rat acts funny, but if another chicken acts odd, it is not long for this world.This I have seen with my own eyes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: GUEST,lox Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:02 PM "Look at any example of racism in history and it tends to have an economic basis." I think its the other way around. Racists blame minorities for their own misfortune - for example when the economy is performing poorly. But an educated person knows that eliminating a group of people will not fix a broken economy. Because they know that economics is a much more complex science than that and that race issues are by and large irrelevant to an economy's succes or failure. I return to ignorance being the root and education being the solution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Bill D Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:17 PM Ignorance IS a major problem, but education will not overcome it easily. There are very well-educated folks who use supposed 'research' to support racist theories....and we have examples everyday of people just ignoring what they are taught & told in order to cling to some prejudice, superstition or cultural habit. If education really solved things easily, we would not have astrology, palmistry, phrenology, Tarot, etc... (yes...and religion) coloring all aspects of life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Riginslinger Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:55 PM When the American Congress passed Affirmative Action Legislation, it seems as though they were onto the reality that in order to overcome racism, the races have to interact with each other. I think they were right, basically, but there are problems with affirmative action. It resulted in a system where, if you were going to reward one person, you had to take something away from somebody else. Their hearts were in the right place. Maybe it's something to build on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:06 PM Racism is a symptom of the human need to discriminate. We begin by discriminating sounds so that we can attain language. We learn to discriminate between colour, taste, touch, etc. This ability to discrimate serves many purposes. Racism is a perversion of our innate ability to discriminate. This perversion has been fuelled by socio-economic-political forces to keep groups of people separated so that they do not become a united force. Racism serves no purpose except to divide. Thats my two cents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: kendall Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:55 AM Ignorance breeds fear, fear breeds hatred. It never ends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: GUEST,ifor Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:53 PM Yes I think racism is rooted in economics. In particular the slave trade which lasted for some 350 years involved the capture,forced transportation, enslavement,humiliation and oppression of many millions of black people on two continents. These people were treated with the utmost barbarity...mass murder,thrown overboard,crowded into hell holes,separation of families and loved ones,torture,branding ,and much much more. Those major powers like Britain and the USA that were up to their necks in the blood and gore of the slaves had to give some kind of justification for the slavery of millions and thus despite 1500 years of christianity systematic racism was unleashed to try to justify that which could not be justified. Those who made millions out of the slave trade and the sweat of the slaves promulgated myths of racial inferiority and superiority,africans were declared to be less than human,they were good for nothing except beasts of burden etc. Capitalism as Karl Marx wrote was born dripping out of the sweat,blood and gore of the african slaves whose labour in the New World was to build the foundations of our economic system. It is interesting to note, as an afterthought, that when Marx was asked about his favourite historical character he answered immediately with the name of "Spartacus" the leader of the Roman slave rebellion. ifor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Riginslinger Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:59 PM "Ignorance breeds fear, fear breeds hatred. It never ends." It could end, of course, if you got rid of ignorance! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:56 AM I don't think it is straight forward at all. There is the hate/fear thing which is very true but there are also the political manipulators who try to steer that masses from the real issues by blaming someone else. There is also the justification of past slavery and injustice going on (they are lower than us - it's ok for us to treat them badly) and blatant sensationalism by the gutter press. If I had all the answers I'd be a rich man and the world would be a better place but, as someone already said, eductaion must be a big part of it. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Emma B Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:15 AM As Dave says above there is an assumption that 'they are lower than us - it's ok for us to treat them badly' Give any group of people a collective dehumanizing name and you have the basis for torture, genocide etc from early recorded history to Abu Ghraib. Perhaps one of the most infamous is the treatment of the Tasmanian natives by European settlers and escaped convicts. 'As early as 1804 the British began to slaughter, kidnap and enslave the Black people of Tasmania. The colonial government itself was not even inclined to consider the aboriginal Tasmanians as full human beings, and scholars began to discuss civilization as a unilinear process with White people at the top and Black people at the bottom. To the Europeans of Tasmania the Blacks were an entity fit only to be exploited in the most sadistic of manners--a sadism that staggers the imagination and violates all human morality. As UCLA professor, Jared Diamond, recorded: "Tactics for hunting down Tasmanians included riding out on horseback to shoot them, setting out steel traps to catch them, and putting out poison flour where they might find and eat it. Sheperds cut off the penis and testicles of aboriginal men, to watch the men run a few yards before dying. At a hill christened Mount Victory, settlers slaughtered 30 Tasmanians and threw their bodies over a cliff. One party of police killed 70 Tasmanians and dashed out the children's brains." ' from BLACK WAR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TASMANIAN ABORIGINES By RUNOKO RASHIDI |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: kendall Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:32 AM If you can't dehumanize a person, you can not make them a slave or otherwise make him sub Human. Ringslinger, old Russian proverb: "Is no should.Is only is" There will always be ignorance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM Emma B. - Does Runoko Rashidi document what he writes with credible sources? Why would people do things like that when there is nothing to be gained from it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Emma B Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:29 AM The 'credible source' for that quote is UCLA professor, Jared Diamond, an American evolutionary biologist, physiologist, biogeographer, lecturer and Pulitzer Prize-winning author of 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' (1998), The information is from his 'In black and white' a chapter in Racism: A Global Reader By Kevin Reilly, Stephen Kaufman, Angela Bodino you can read further here pages 23-26 but it is painful and shaming reading. As to your final question Riginslinger, I have no answer other than - because they could |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM "As to your final question Riginslinger, I have no answer other than - because they could..." That's really, really sick. I'll try to run down the book. Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Skivee Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:03 PM There are no "other races' of humans. There is only one living race of humans. There is no genetic reason that any member of any ethnic population can not reproduce with a member of another ethnic group. This fact is the defining item that makes a creature a member of one race. It also means that all those racists ( nazis, clan members, extremist Jews, extremist muslims, extremist Hindus, extremist anybody, BNP, other idiot nationalists of your choice, white separatists, Black separatists, etal, who base their philosophy on the idea that those dirty foreign folks over there are not the same race as us) are full of crap. There are many vaguely defined ethnic groups of humans, but ony ONE human race; and what a bunch of stupid monkeys we are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racism: Why? From: Paul Burke Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:20 AM You're quite right, but it's the perception that motivates people. Even the horrible example of the break up of Yugoslavia doesn't deter people from making micro- distinctions. Can you tell a Serb from a Croat? I can't- but they can, and might kill for it. |