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Serious Questions for Christians
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Subject: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,khandu Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:23 AM The name "Christian" means "Christ-like". I do not see much Christ-likeness with in the Christians. This is not an attempt to inflame nor to defame. This is honest, I want to know questions. I doubt that Jesus would become angry if these questions were asked of him. Jesus did not lobby Rome to replace Pontius Pilate as procurator. I am certain he did not agree with Roman occupation of his country, yet he did not gather a following in order to make a political statement. Why do you? Jesus did not carry signs protesting the practice of crucifixion. He did not, with his men, stand near the place of crucifixion saying things like "Where is a sniper when you need one". Why do you do this at abortion clinics? He did not buy time at the local place of meeting to raise money to buy more time to raise money to buy more time... Why do we see you do this on TV. He did not spend millions to build grand cathedrals while his neighbors were in need. He did not condemn the harlots, publicans and such, telling them they were an "abomination to the Lord" Why do you? He did not have crusades during which he did his miracles, putting on a Las Vegas show to warm the crowd up. He did them whereever he saw the need. He did not sell cheap trinkets or his latest book to raise money from "love offerings". He showed Grace and mercy to the "sinners". He taught that change must come from within. The only people he raised hell with were the Pharisees, the "religious" leaders of the day..."Thou hypocrites....." Why is there such a difference between Him and those who bear his name; those who, by the name, are Christ-like. There seems to be something greatly wrong here. I understand Mark Twain who said (Something like) "If Jesus were to come and live among us, one thing he would not be, is a Christian". Can any of you answer these questions? (Hopefully,in the spirit in which they were asked!) khandu
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:30 AM Khandu, the spirit in which they were asked leads me to want to communicate with you, but know this. There is not a single one of us among those you address who can take responsibility for what ALL members of the group do, nor explain it. To understand what you are trying to know will require relationship with individuals. I am willing to be one, but not out here in the thread. In e-mail. To explain what you are trying to know will require that individulas have relationship with YOU. Are you willing to go where the questions lead, in relationship?
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: InOBU Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:33 AM That is why we crucify him again and again, as we did when we shot in on that balcony when he had a dream in the US, why we beat him and left him tied to a fence to die for being gay, why we let him starve to death for basic rights in prison, why in Florida we electrocuted him twice, only to find out he was innocent when after the second time he was strapped to the chair he returned to his father, why we dam his salmon streams in Quebec making his children drug and alcohol addicted wards of the state. It is not if Christ came back we'd put him on death row again... we did again and again from the ovens of Auswitz to the homeless guy you step over on your way to work. Have a good sunday, all Larry |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:42 AM People, please consider taking this discussion offCat. You can CLICK THIS to continue this discussion among others who are discussing it on a daily basis in a forum as well-organized as this one. If you do, you should land at Beliefnet, in this subcategory: DISCUSSIONS, CHRISTIANITY, CHRISTIANITY CHALLENGE & CRITIQUE.
THE GUIDELINES FOR THAT BOARD STATE: |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,khandu Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:55 AM E-mail: HG@kellys.com |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:00 AM Thanks, khandu. You can click my name to e-mail me. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Jon Freeman Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:15 AM khandu, Why are Americans so fat? I don't mean to be inflamatory but hope to illustrate to you how ridiculous and unfair lumping any group of people as one is. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,khandu Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:16 AM As for taking it off the Cat, I am ambivalent. First, I do not know how to "un-post". If the powers that be choose to delete this, OK. However, the questions raised here are asked by many people every day. People are seeking answers to life and the Christians say they have the answers. Yet, people see the "representatives" (the re-presenters) of Christ and find a massive dichotomy, quite often they find condemnation, affectation, self righteousness as filthy as menstrual rags, and much disappointment! The sense is "If this is Christ, the drunks at the bar are far more compassionate, merciful and caring that He is!" Discuss it with the "pious". Why? From experience, I have been reviled, called names, and actually kicked out because I wanted honest answers. From the pulpit, a congregation was told to avoid contact with me because I have a rebellious spirit. Honestly, Praise (AKA: What you see...)I was not rebellious, I just wanted someone to hear my questions. If one is to be a representative of Jesus, let him re-present Jesus. I am not interested in a social club. If I were, I would join the Moose Lodge or the Rotary Club. So, here we are. Delete this post if you choose. I have been deleted in other places. I can live with it. khandu |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,khandu Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:26 AM Jon, I know what you are saying. I understand that I sound as though I am "lumping" Christians all together. I do not know how to articulate, especially on emotional subjects (as this one is to me). There are may Christians that do live (as best they know) according to the teachings of Jesus. But, it seems they are few and far between. Turn on your TV. Look and listen. IMHO, most of the ministers you hear fit into the thread's category. And look at the MASSES that follow these guys. I am sorry to disturb the waters and offend good people, but I am heartsick at the Bullshit that I see that calls itself "Christ-like". IT IS NOT! khandu
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:28 AM Khandu, relax.... and read your e-mail, sweetie. :~) ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: kimmers Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:28 AM Khandu, those using the name of "Christian" are a diverse lot; that's part of the problem. I'm not happy about it either, as the folks you are describing (who are the ones who get most of the publicity) would love it if the word "Christian" applied only to them and not to those of us who are trying to practice a compassionate faith. I belong to the Episcopal Church, in particular to a small parish in the poorest part of town. We are trying our best to express Jesus' love here on earth, but we ain't perfect. But we ordain women, accept gays, and leave politics to the conscience of each member. I've never been part of such an incredible church until I came here. We practice a faith and a worship that is as close to what the Christians of the first few centuries practiced that you can find -- at least where English is spoken. When I tell people I'm a Christian, some of them immediately think of the Religious Right abortion-clinic-bombing homophobic crowd. That saddens me. We must work harder to take the name of our faith back. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Rick Fielding Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:48 AM Several recent threads have dealt with controversial subjects and remained quite civil. I think Mudcat has learned how to deal with silliness pretty well in the last year. I'm not a believer Khandu, but like you, I've asked questions, and enjoyed discussions about beliefs all my adult life. I have theories and suppositions, and on some occasions have felt comfortable with answers given by others. Used to have a friend who was a Jesuit. One of the most interesting people I've ever met, and he had as many questions as answers. Religion (just like sex and politics) has been MADE into a mainstream issue these days, by TV, radio, the Net, and especially by it's current association with politics (especialy in North America). My dad's generation didn't do much open discussing of ANY of those topics, but the floodgates were opened in the sixties. At least around here, you may still get dumped on for questioning someone's dogma, (or defending it) but we've gotten rid of the stocks and the lash. Rick
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Butch Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:53 AM In the spirit of your original question: The very reason Christ was sent to earth was to atone for Adam's fall. We ALL fall short of the perfection of God. We Christian's (some at least) act in this way in the same way that members of other religions fall short of their perfection. If is not an excuse, only a reality. Should I defame all Muslims for the actions I see on the television in India or Palistine, OR should I listen to the KKK and take their view of Jews? Rarely do you hear the stories of saints who live Christ's example. How often do we hear of a saintly Jew, Muslim, Hindu or humanist. It is not that do do not exisit, it is that they are not news worthy. I was recently at in Washington DC for the swearing in of the president. I saw hundreds of environmentalists drop their posters on the ground after the President passed and walk away from the litter pile. Should I believe that all enviromentalists are bad, or that some of the most vocal ones are simply human in their inperfection? If a Christain calls for a sniper while protesting abortion, then they are wrong. That does not make all Christians wrong. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:58 AM I for one am intigued khandu, why do you pick today of all days to post this? Jon Freeman unfortunately many religious leaders lump people together and say they are speaking on their collective behalf - preaching tolerance while protesting at the notion of equal rights for all Roger |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: paddymac Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:59 AM Just to interject a little music into this topic, can we compile a list of songs that directly or indirectly pose similar kinds of queries and dilemnas? Two that come to mind ar "Plastic Jesus" (two versions in the DT)and "He Was Just Thirty-three". There must be many more out there. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: harpgirl Date: 28 Jan 01 - 12:01 PM ...with all due respect, please put BS in front of these religious issues just as we agree to do with all none music threads so they can be eliminated when searching for music only information... |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,khandu Date: 28 Jan 01 - 12:01 PM They killed Him; Kristofferson |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Jim Dixon Date: 28 Jan 01 - 12:06 PM Khandu: Sorry to contradict you, but there IS a viable theory that Jesus WAS a political activist and would-be rebel who DID want to overthrow the Roman control of Palestine; and that the political aspects of Jesus' message were suppressed by early editors of the gospels, probably under the supervision of Paul. They did this because they saw (correctly) that they would have greater success proselytizing among the Romans than among the Jews. Therefore they expunged anything that would be offensive to the Romans, and they shifted the blame for Jesus' crucifixion from the Romans to the Jews. If you want to learn more about this theory, I urge you to read "Revolution in Judaea," by Hyam Maccoby. Unfortunately, the book is out of print but you might find it in a library. Amazon's listing for this book includes 3 reviews, one of them written by me.
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: SINSULL Date: 28 Jan 01 - 12:40 PM "Did Jesus Wear A Rolex On His Radio Show?" khandu - why are you asking this of Christians only? Surely you know that other groups are involved in the same activities? And for the most part, all of these activities are performed by extremists within the group. Or do you believe that all anti-gay groups support crucifying gay men on fences? For the record I am an atheist. You ask "Why is there such a difference between Him and those who bear his name; those who, by the name, are Christ-like." I suggest you look away from the television, the news headlines, and the hype. There are true Christians everywhere I go. Look hard enough and you may find that you are one yourself in practice if not on name.
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: SINSULL Date: 28 Jan 01 - 12:50 PM in name. And yes in 12 years of Catholic schooling, I was taught that Jesus' crime in the eyes of the Romans was treason. He advocated the overthrow of government as they knew it. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Big Mick Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:08 PM First off, I disagree completely with my dear friend Susan on this one. There is absolutely no need to take this off the Mudcat, in fact, given the wonderful, sincere, and thought filled way that khandu asked the question, my opinion is that it is a wonderful place for the question. It is often (as in my case) our values/morality that inspires our music. It belongs here exactly and fits in to what the Mudcat is and what makes it unique. As long as it does not descend into attack, it is a worthy subject for this community, IMHO. Rick, who I count among my dear friends, I will bet that the discussions you had with that Jesuit were interesting as hell. Oft times conservative Catholics asked me what happened in my life that turned me into such a questioner instead of a follower. I gave them a one word answer.............Jesuits. Let me explain. khandu, your questions are the very ones that some of us ask ourselves. Most people, on meeting me, would not consider me overly religious. But the fact is, I am a very religious man. But I object to the whole thing you have described. I don't begrudge others this if they need it, but I do begrudge the whole "manifest destiny", public condemnation for not "getting it" thing that goes one. FOR ME, it is about attempting to imitate the life of Christ. As I read scripture and investigate the times, I see Christ as a man sent by God to forever implant on his followers a blueprint for what he knew would be an increasingly difficult world to have values in. The twentieth century proved that. He gave us elemental rules/guidelines that are timeless and help us deal with one another and the world. In my investigation, he was a man who questioned, always questioned, the politics of exclusion. He challenged rigidity in religion that had caused people to live to the word instead of the meaning. He told us that as you do to the least among you, so you do to me. He hung out with whores to the exclusion of the accepted leadership. I always found meaning in the fact that what are called his "miracles" were the easy things to do for him. Curing a leper was no big deal for the Son of God, but he couldn't heal peoples hearts, only they could do that and he showed them how. These things drive my music, drive my politics, and drive how I deal with every day life. If you met me, you would not know from the words I speak that I live by christian principles...........that is, if you were looking for every other statement to be one of me wearing it on my sleeve. I choose instead to try to demonstrate to my God by my deeds and thoughts that I care about trying to do my bit to right what wrong I can, to treat the people I meet with the same great dignity and grace that I see being demonstrated by others and that Jesus practiced every day of his short life, and to judge not. I believe this one is abused more than all others. I get in trouble with my fundamentalist friends over this one. I simply do not believe that I have any right to do anything but be accepting and loving of other lifestyles, religions or lack thereof. The man that I call Lord lived his life that way. I must judge not. That is strictly and absolutely the province of the eternal. My job is to love one another as I have been loved. My job is to daily examine my actions and values and try to continually strive to be more like the man from Nazareth. I know I can't get there, but it is in the trying. That is why I am what I am, imperfect and flawed as that is. Last thing in this ramble. I am saying things here that I have not said before. Any of youse layabouts what know me acts any different and I will be takin' a stick to yer knees. And those that don't know me, expect some funny and off color jokes, a fair amount of the good black stuff to be consumed, and a wee wink and a nudge to the fair ones................hahahahahaha. My God is OK with all that. In fact I think he would tell a lot of folks to "Lighten up". All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Allan C. Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:32 PM "Lighten up." That is what George Burns, in the lead role in the movie "Oh God" said when asked if God had a message for us. Amen to that. Well said, Mick. Now, if all will just reread Mick's post and insert my name where applicable and substitute "Jesuits" with the sect of your choice, you will know my feelings for the most part. The only exception might be that I pattern myself after a broad spectrum of religious figures as well as quite a few everyday people. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Big Mick Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:43 PM Yes, my good friend Allan, I agree. I have often said that I see heroes everyday. In the context of this conversation, I would say that part of that is that they walk through all they are dealt with grace. These are the people that sanctify existence. They come from all walks of life, all creeds, some great and some small. One of the reasons I love Buddhists in general (and my friend Peter T. in particular) is that they sense the eternal and seek a path to it. I count among my religious/moral leaders people of many faiths. You all know the prominent ones like Ghandi and King, but I am constantly amazed at the people I see of all stripes, colors and persuasion that live in a way that I think the Christ would have blessed and been pleased with. It is about the celebration of all that the Creator/God/Allah/whatever name you choose to insert, has created. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: NightWing Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:43 PM khandu, I'm an ex-Christian. I left it partly because of some of the same issues you've raised here. Big Mick, I have to agree: "it is about attempting to imitate the life of Christ." That's what they said anyway. The reason I finally turned my back on the religion (not the practices) was that I saw almost no one who was even trying. Many of them appeared to be actively trying to live their lives as LITTLE like the Carpenter as they could. And yet they still professed his name. I know there are Xians who really do try to live like him. Presumably some of them are here. However, in my experience, they are far and away the exceptions to the rule. I've found good things elsewhere. I won't be back. But it still makes me mildly ill to see some of the idiots who claim to follow him and instead are doing exactly the opposite of what he might've.
Blessed Be, |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: kimmers Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:45 PM "Lighten up." I like that, Mick. And I like your picture of Jesus, even though I might disagree on the theology a little. My Jesus was a man who, as you said, hung out with tax collectors and prostitutes, and who changed water into fine wine (gallons and gallons of it!) so that the guests could be merry at a wedding (despite evangelical temperance claims that they were really all drinking grape juice). He was not afraid to flout the silly rules about working on the Sabbath if it meant healing somewhat. He took time to speak with children, yet turned holy wrath on those who filled the temple with crass merchandising. He was probably a pretty unnerving guy to be around. Khandu, reading through your original list, I can't defend most of the actions and attitudes contained there. I agree that most of those things are pretty reprehensible. The only one I want to take gentle exception to is the bit about cathedrals. Religions have always built temples, altars and lavish places of worship. From the ancient Mayans to the temples at Angkor Wat; from the glorious mosques of Istanbul to St. Peter's Basilica, people of faith have been moved to create works of art to express their worship. It's true that often funds were used for these purposes that could have fed the hungry. That's a quandary I don't have an answer for, except the one Jesus gave in the same situation. When the prostitute poured expensive perfume on his head and washed his feet with tears, the onlookers scoffed and said that the perfume should have been sold and given to the poor. Jesus defended her actions. Everyone who discovers the Divine uses a different route to get there. Beautiful buildings don't do much for me; I get bored pretty quickly on a tour of a cathedral. But I've seen my husband's face transfixed with joy as he marvels at carven stone pillars and glorious stained-glass windows. He is a mystic at heart, and mystics are generally poorly understood by mainstream Christianity (whatever that is). I'll never forget our visit to the Episcopal Cathedral in San Francisco, and our delight when we discovered that they had an icon of Martin Luther King, Jr. While I believe it is extremely important for us to give of our resources to the poor and the needy, I also believe that a world without these great religion-inspired works of art would be a poorer place indeed. Keep asking these questions, Khandu. Asking questions should open doors, not slam them. |
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Subject: Serious answer... From: Bernard Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:51 PM There are rotten apples in every barrel... |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Big Mick Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:55 PM Night Wing, I understand exactly what you are talking about. Mind if I share something that I realized though? I am not making any attempt here to denigrate, save, or in anyway challenge your way. It just reminds me of where I was at. I am a Roman Catholic, and for many years I searched for a better way because I was disillusioned with the things I saw. They were and are, precisely the things you have described. But on the way, it was, I believe it is a Zen concept, the idea that the further you travel from the beginning, the closer you are to it. The full circle concept. I realized that for me, the expression I sought was there for me all the time. It was in the teachings and example, the real one that is there to be discovered, of the Carpenter. Seeing the problems of the Church, and some of its members, is not a reason to turn my back on the truths I found there. And leaving this community that was started by the Carpenter wasn't the answer either. Because then I was abandoning it to those whose actions and judgement I was questioning. In essence, I was judging them. Going back to what had become my basic philosophy of "judge not" and "love one another" I chose to go back, find the beauty of spirit and hope that is expressed in the Mass, contribute that which I could to the community, challenge it to be better.........in essence to try and do there that which I choose to do in the rest of the world. In the end, if there is indeed a judgement day, that is what I choose to be judged on. That and my love for all of creation. Even 'Spaw...............LOL. 'Nuff said, by me. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Big Mick Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:57 PM Damn...........I have got to remember to close that bold html command. That is twice I have done that. The only word in the last one that was supposed to be bold was the word me |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Jeri Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:00 PM Mick, one thing that is blatantly obvious when one meets you is that you're a man who lives his beliefs. Using extremists to typify all Christians is like using Muslim terrorists to represent all Muslims. The people who stand out happen to be more "in-your-face" than the quiet people who live every day according to their own belief in good, whether those beliefs are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, etc. or just a stong belief in Doing The Right Thing. People get into positions of power by getting folks to jump on their band wagon. If they can con people by saying they have Christian morals, family values, etc, despite their actions, it speaks more about the gullibility of the general, well-meaning public than the group they identify themselves with. The question is why these folks can continue to con people. Khandu, I can claim to be an environmentalist and then pollute a river. Are you going to ask all environmentalists the same sort of questions you ask Christians because I'm a hypocrite?
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Jon Freeman Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:05 PM OK khlandu, I understand you. I won't be watching them on the tv though as I don't have one - I get the feeling things may be a little different in the US anyway. As for me, I am just a Christian and I do not belong to any denomination and like others, wonder about some things done by and attitudes of certain Christains. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,Kernow Jon Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:09 PM Khandu I am glad you raised the questions here that you have. I just wished I had the eloquence of Big Mick to answer them. Regards KJ |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Peter T. Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:09 PM I suppose the real divide is in 3 parts, and is therefore one that is very hard to work through for anyone who is challenged by Jesus or Buddha or whomever. The 1st part is that figures like Jesus are deep searchers, and as such very revolutionary and disruptive -- they assault all normal truths, politics, structures, etc. Many people who are attracted to them are attracted to them for these reasons. The 2nd part is the difficult, difficult result (or result in process) of their search, which is this deep serenity and love and confidence and acceptance that suffuses them. The rest of us can only hope to get there someday; but, in the meantime, there is this part of them that is also immensely attractive -- the deep love of God or the compassion of the Buddha or Allah's protection or whatever. That is what makes deep searchers sometimes become attached to a faith tradition -- they are deeply afraid there is no truth, and yet if someone so extraordinary (actually, many people who are extraordinary) say they have found that there is something, then it gives them strength. The problem is in the 3rd part, where the deep acceptance of the truth by the founder is turned into the complacent or required acceptance of the truth as articulated by institutions set up to carry on the teachings of the founder. For people who are outside the belief system, the whole enterprise seems reactionary and hypocritical (which it often is) -- that is, part 3. For people who are inside the belief system -- and are what I would call honest believers -- it is the 1st and 2nd parts of the religion and its founder that they focus on. It is very hard for people outside to separate the 3 parts, especially when there are many, many people inside the system who also are complacent and reactionary. Virtually every question asked by khandu is focussed on the bad parts of 3; virtually all the responses are focussed on the beautiful parts of 1 and 2. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Skeptic Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:10 PM Khandu, My grandfather (a lay minister) believed you can't exactly tell someone how to know if someone is a Christian. But when you meet one, you'll know. What you are talking about is people who claim to be Christian. Assuming the definition you hold of 'Christian' is one who accepts Christ as their savior, tries their best to follow the tenets and ethics of the bible and so on, the question could be restated: Does the Bible authorize or legitimize these seeming unchristian like actions? And is claiming to be Christian the same as being one? Sometimes and No. On a secular level, there seems to be an "out" in Christianity for someone doing all those horrible things. You can be forgiven. And backslide and be forgiven again. Ad infinitum. Why worry about the consequences, when there's an escape clause. There is also very human tendency of people to select not only which parts of the Bible (Or any work, secular or otherwise) they choose to believe, but which elements they want to stress/de-stress. (This is the real problem, I think. And one not usually dealt with by theology). IMO, this attitude has little to do with being a Christian and a lot to do with claiming to be. They fall into the trap of: I've been saved so what I believe must be good since I am saved. I believe in _________________, so it must be ordained by God. One of the hardest things to deal with, with this type of person, is their absolute (and honest) sincerity. Logic doesn't enter into it. Just self delusion. That said, why don't those who are truly Christians (in word and deed) denounce those who aren't? In part because their belief tells them not to. Judgement is reserved for God. While it seems clear that someone can live a Christ-like life and yet not believe in Christ, the converse (logically and theologically) should not be true. If you accept "being filled with the spirit", then walking the walk has to happen, it isn't a matter of choice. If it doesn't (allowing for a very infrequent slip-up), then the person probably isn't a Christian. (Strictly speaking). The more cynical answer to most of your questions is that by condemning and denigrating others, they feel better about themselves. Their motives are internal (ego gratification) as opposed to external (spiritual). I think they're looking for a way to force the world into a mold they can understand. Implying however, that Christianity is worse (or better) in this illogic than other religions would be wrong. People want some justification for what they do. A lot look for it outside themselves. While many religions build monuments, the justification under Christianity is tenuous and more social than theological. I seem to recall that the only temple that the bible commands be built is in Jerusalem. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Peter T. Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:18 PM It is also worth adding that people who assault part 3, use the disruptive power of part 1 to do it, e.g. Jesus was a revolutionary, why aren't you? yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,mkebenn@work Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:24 PM I see the TV christians as the 20th century decendents of the tempal's money changers, some never have gotten it. Mostley, I agree with Big Mick, and I give change back to Micky d. clerks when they can't count. I try, not to judge, to love my neighbor, and when I fail, I attone. Mike |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:31 PM That's one hell of a summation Peter. As I test my way through it, it seems to "cover the bases." Nice theory, nice work. Evidence tends to support you well here. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Gypsy Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:35 PM Khandu, i am willing to bet that you know more Christians than you realize. Just as the news media can never come up with good news, the idiots you described, who profess Christianity are generally the ones who get the press. Most people don't know about my religion, because i don't stick it in their face. But in my work as a deacon, i can: Feed people, help with thier rent, get them legal aid, counseling, and emergency shelter, among other things. But i am not in the paper, and i certainly don't run up and tell everyone on the street what i have done. Course, wasn't me doing it, just channeling God. While i agree with you that plenty of people fit the picture that you paint, i must ask you to bear in mind that you don't know ALL of this particular group, and therefore should refrain from labeling all alike. I would suggest taking a private poll of people in your world. You might be very surprized. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Alice Date: 28 Jan 01 - 03:51 PM There are people in every belief system, every religion, who are fanatics, scam artists, hypocrites, and out to exploit/manipulate others while waving the flag of their beliefs. "Spirituality" these days is big business, and there are many people inventing their own religions or sects of traditional religions, and exploiting those whom they manage to recruit. Discerning who is authentic in their behavior, following traditional religions, requires being informed about those religious traditions and having the ability to see the difference between the religious person who lives constructively and the person who is a fanatic, scam artist, or hypocrite. and a U. of Virginia site that compiles information about religious movements, old and new.click here |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: bbc Date: 28 Jan 01 - 04:04 PM Those of us who call ourselves Christians are at various levels of maturity & understanding. Some of us are certainly trying to live by the beliefs we profess, in practical, everyday kinds of ways. If you judge Christianity or God by any one of us, you are likely to end up disillusioned. God is the only standard who will not disappoint. best, bbc (trying to live up to her calling in NY) |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Gypsy Date: 28 Jan 01 - 05:11 PM Ooohhh, BBC, you said it much better and more concisely than i! Thanks |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Susan from California Date: 28 Jan 01 - 05:33 PM After my beloved NY football Giants finish their season, I will add my $0.02 but right now I need to watch a little pre-game while I hope for no rolling blackouts. I'll try to check in during the ridiculous half time show! |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,khandu Date: 28 Jan 01 - 06:36 PM Once again, I was amiss in my articulation. I did not mean to imply that I referred to ALL Christians in the original post. I was speaking to those who either do, or support the activities I spoke of. "Well, I woke up Sunday morning with no way to hold my head that didn't hurt" I was frustrated this morning when I posted this thread. Had I been in a better disposition, I may not have posted it. But...I still ask those questions. Thanks for all the input you have, er, put in. I appreciate everyone's contribution and views. Let's re-title this thread (if it continues any longer) "Serious Questions for SOME Christians (or so-called ones!) Life is short. Let's do something worthwhile, like riding Spaw's ass! khandu |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jan 01 - 07:47 PM Well, when I was young, I used to see a lot of hypocrites in church. Now that I'm older and a little less convinced of my own righteousness, I've started to listen to the hypocrites and to find out that maybe they aren't so hypocritical - they're just looking for answers, and haven't found them yet. I find it very tempting to condemn television Christians and how they give Christianity a bad name. I can't say I see much Christianity on TV that I agree with, but - aren't those people just looking for answers, too? I have a very different view of Christianity from theirs, but I can't really see spending money on television to present my perspective. Those of us who work in churches deal with many really wonderful people; but we also run into small-minded people all the time, and it can really be frustrating to deal with them. A very wise young friend of mine used to say, "Joe, ya gotta love 'em." So, that's what I try to do - but they still drive me up a wall sometimes. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,khandu Date: 28 Jan 01 - 08:12 PM Let me clarify one more thing. I am a believer. Jesus is my breath, my water and my bread. From 1979 till 1992, I was an ordained minister (still ordained, just not active!) I do not push it on anyone, nor shall I deride anyone who believes differently. Each must find and walk his own road. khandu |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Gypsy Date: 28 Jan 01 - 08:25 PM Well said, Khandu. Perhaps the thread might be titled, regarding hypocrites. I know a native american spiritualist who is all the things that you describe. I also know a hindu, buddist, and wiccan who would fit the bill admirably. Again, there are hypocrites in ALL forms of worship, just as there are good people. Guess who gets all the press? |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Susan from California Date: 28 Jan 01 - 08:29 PM OK Khandu, since you have traded in your broad brush :-) for one with a finer tip, I have a lot less to agrue with you about. Let me just say, and not nearly as eloquently as some of the above, that most people of faith do try to follow Christ. ALL people of faith fall short of his example. I know that I do many things in my daily life trying to love the unlovable, trying to help the helpless, trying to touch the untouchable. I do it very differently (I hope) from the people who you are talking about. And many of the type of people you are talking about say that I am not a Christian. Once I was even called an agent of Satan because of my political views. But as Dr. Larch said in John Irving's "The Cider House Rules" (the Book, not the movie) "We're all doing God's work." Gotta get back to the game, I miss those halftimes with the high school marching bands *BG* |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: paddymac Date: 28 Jan 01 - 09:46 PM If you are a fortunate person, your local library might have the set of videos made by Joseph Campbell on "Mythologies" - came out in 1989. I've been re-watching them this past week, and they are exactly on point as to several of the questions raised here. Campbell has several books as well, and the most widely known is probably "The Hero With A 1,000 Faces." There is an excellant book by Ruth Underhill called "Red Man's Religion", which surveys religious beliefs and practices of native american peoples. It has much broader applications, as well. Of particular interest in re this thread, she relates the nature of religion, or the organization thereof, to the size and stage of development of the society. She distinguishes between shamans and medicine men as religious leaders who gain their credibility through direct guidance from spirits, and priests, who gain their power and authority by adherence to ritual, originally created or describes by shamans and medicine men but often elaborated by the priestly class. If this dichotomy of shamans receiving spiritual guidance, and priests receiving power and authority through adherence to ritual, can be generally applied to the evolution of christianity, the person called Jesus would be viewed as a shaman, while those who came after and presumed to speak for him would be priests seeking, all too often power and authority, but occasionally, true holy men seeking and promoting spirituality. I don't wish to offend anyone here, merely to posit another view for contemplation. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: kimmers Date: 28 Jan 01 - 09:55 PM An issue that troubles me these days is the whole definition of "Christian". To my Jewish friends, it's everyone one else of European ancestry: in other words, a cultural Christian. To many people I know, a Christian is one who has a had a dramatic conversion experience, usually referred to as "Inviting Jesus Into Your Heart". To me, Christianity means believing the words of the Nicene Creed (which I can get if someone wants to read it) and being baptized or planning to be baptized. I grew up attending a Conservative Baptist Church, then became an Episcopalian in college when I realized that I needed to make a change. The last I heard, my former churchmates believe that I am no longer 'saved' because I have, in their eyes, 'left the church'. This saddens me.
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Skeptic Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:01 PM Khandu, Maybe the actions you talk about are because those people stopped trying to find answers (having decided they've found them) stopped trying to walk the walk. Pride goes before the fall. As a believer, you understand being a Christian is an active thing, not passive. You don't just become one and that's all she wrote. You have to live it. My great uncle preachedc a sermon on being a Christian. The theme was that accepting Christ brings love and salvation. Being a Christian takes work. Regards John |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Big Mick Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:14 PM Thanks, Jeri. Check's in the mail.........***chuckle*** Peter T., this is why I have such respect for you, you cad. That was a wonderfully put together analysis. I think you crystallized for me another step I must take, and that is the one of bringing these three elements into their proper positions of influence as one continues on the journey. Thanks for a wonderful post. Mick |
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