Fairport on BBC4 Tonight

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 03:21 AM

"Because you're an illiterate fool."

Well, at least I'm not a bigot like you.

OK, now that I have a couple of minutes to waste, let me spell it out for you. I don't need a dictionary to define "ageist"; for the last 10 years I've worked with various organisations to actively promote a positive image of older people and to end the negative stereotyping and hurtful, derisive comments that are so often applied to the older generations. So, perhaps you would explain to me how lumping an older age group alongside elephants and dinosaurs as being the ones who would enjoy "plodding" music is NOT derogatory. Would the same be true if, instead on an age group, you had cited an ethnic group, people with a disability or those of a particular sexual orientation?

To get back to the matter of Fairport and Liege and Lief, I was 20 when I first heard it and was excited by the innovation (and folk music played in RayBan Aviators…DUDES!). Since then, I've continued to enjoy it (and wear the RayBans) but I'm also loving watching the rise of new, young artists like Lucy Ward, Katriona Gilmore and Jamie Roberts, Blair Dunlop, The Old Dance School, etc. In fact, whilst taking a look at my CD collection, in the Ms alone, next to Ralph McTell, Mr Fox, Dougie Maclean and Mike and the Mechanics (how did they get there?) there are Mawkin, Megson, Mumford and Sons, Ewan McLennan, Laura Marling, Jim Moray....the list goes on.

Oh, and as for illiterate, perhaps you should check your own posts - hardly models of correct grammar and punctuation. Hoist by your own petard there, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 03:49 AM

Oh, I forgot to add: :)

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 04:14 AM

wot a surprise -some people really like leige and lief,others think it's ok and some don't like it all

some people really like fairports,others.....

this will be the pattern with whatever artist we choose to talk about. as it is a bit of a pointless discussion, maybe we make it more lively by insulting each other on whatever spurious 'reason' we can find. enjoyable, but stupid behaviour for intelligent people to chuck the insults about.

however, apart from a few brain-dead morons we can all agree that richard thompson is a top guitarist and an awesome live performer. and we (and esp fairports )miss sandy denny)

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 01:36 PM

Well, I expect this'll get insults from the Levellers too, but to my taste . . .

The 60's part of the Fairport doc was inspiring, with Judy Dyble, Sandy Denny & RT. After that it was all downhill, charting their descent into a folk-influenced pub rock beery bloke band. The 2012 concert was really very tedious, especially the singing. The RT documentary was generally much better, reaching the peak of the whole evening with Linda Thompsons singing (and dignity) - though a little snippet of Bonnie Raitt singing RT song was pretty damn good too.

Moral: women bring artistic benefits, creativity and civilising effects to bands. Think how much better June Tabor & Oysterband are today than pretty much anything seen in that Fairport doc post-70's. All-bloke bands are invariably improved by female participation. Discuss . . .

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 05:24 PM

I missed the FC marathon - perhaps wisely, I have far more important things to do just now - but I too get rather bored by the endless feting, hyping, and lauding of FC, L&L, and Sandy Denny.

I like a great deal both of rock music and of folk music, it's the bastardisation of the two together that rarely works for me. I doubt if I've liked more than 5-10% of all the folk-rock I've ever heard, and certainly can't think of a single folk-rock album, FC's included, of which I like as many as a third or half the tracks, let alone all of them. Perhaps, if you choose to call them folk-rock which I'm not sure that I would, The Oyster Band came pretty close with Lie Back And Think Of England, and perhaps slightly less so with Liberty Hall - certainly both albums have some great tracks, and it's a crying shame that they are not available as CDs.

I can't agree in any way that L&L is either seminal or important, irrelevant is more the word that springs to my mind.

Sandy Denny always sounds to me like a poor man's wannabe Joni Mitchell. Whereas I still treasure two albums of Joni's - "Ladies Of The Canyon" and "Blue" - I can't think of any album of Sandy's work that I would wish to own. Although "Who Knows Where The Time Goes?" is rightly regarded as a brilliant track, it is only one track, whereas *every* track on those two Joni albums is at least very good, and many are brilliant, as are also quite a few from the album which came between them, "Clouds", which latter includes the originals of "Both Sides Now" and "The Fiddle And The Drum", which later June Tabor covered so well.

I just can't see it meself ... there was then and has been since so much better stuff out there ...

Perhaps if we could all remove the blinkered glasses for a moment, we could appreciate some of the other, arguably better music of the time that has somehow been largely forgotten.

The band Audience - variously described as art-rock, folk-rock, prog-rock - produced two eponymous albums, one so forgettable that it's only saved from utter wilderness by including "River Boat Queen", but the OTHER was absolutely brilliant, virtually every track a winner from start to finish! Fortunately, most of this latter LP ended up on the CD "Unchained", although I have often wondered why the single exception, the excellent "Elixir Of Youth", was dropped in favour of a mix of lesser tracks from other albums. They also produced an album called "Friend's Friend's Friend" which was, and maybe still is, available on CD, and which is almost as good.

Curved Air was another prog-rock band I listened to a great deal at the time. I think it's probably valid to compare Sonja Kristina with Sandy Denny, especially as she was at one time going to replace Sandy in The Strawbs, but she joined Curved Air instead. The band's first two albums, "Airconditioning" and "2nd Album" were particularly good, and although the rest of "Phantasmagoria" degenerated into wierdness, the first two tracks of it were among their best, and their fourth (I believe it was) album "Aircut" with a new line-up was also really good. Sonja, under her last name Linwood, is credited with contributions to most of their material. I particularly like tracks such as "Young Mother" and "Marie Antoinette".

But, although to my mind "Lie Back And Think Of England", "Liberty Hall", "Audience" (the one that opens with "Trombone Gulch"), "Friend's Friend's Friend", "Airconditioning", "2nd Album", and "Aircut" were all better than anything done by the folk-rock brigade, no-one talks of any of these albums in the same reverential tones.

There is no more artistic justice in this life than any other form of justice.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 06:08 PM

I agree about Audience - FFF was superb (I can't help thinking Jeremiah Caid was a prophesy for me personally!), and I'll never forget their drummer's bare-hands and hand-bell drum solos. Keith Gemmell, sax and cheroot, went on to join my all-time (including the latest line-up which is superb) favourite band, Stackridge - a co-incidence which then blew my young mind. But please don't call honest and passionate opinions 'blinkered.' That lowers you to the level of another young man of this parish with whom it's best not to bandy. Those who love L and L do so because it moves us. We were not brainwashed or duped. We heard the record and had an informed, independent and honest reaction. It slid into our souls. You would do well to understand and respect this. Curved Air were, in my opinion, quite good. Only. See? We disagree. But I'd never call you blinkered for liking sexy Sonja more than the complex, visceral, vulnerable and sadly venal Sandy. And while I'm at it - merely to prove that one man's meat is another's hummus - I love Joni's songs but could never listen to her voice. Still can't. Each to his own, tha' knows, and no need for insult.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 10:27 PM

All-bloke bands are invariably improved by female participation. Discuss . . .

The Beatles and Yoko?

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 02:48 AM

"Well, I expect this'll get insults from the Levellers too, but to my taste . . ."

Why? I was not commenting on people's differing opinions about Liege and Lief, I was taking David Owen to task for his crass and ignorant comments about "pensioners". An entirely different issue.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: fat B****rd
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 04:27 AM

Interesting band, Audience. The aforementioned drummer joined Hot Chocolate and the guitarist Howard Werth played an electric nylon strung Burns which when I saw them in the late 60s was quite a revelation. it's good to see
them mentioned here.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 08:40 AM

Punkfolkrocker - John Peel regularly played the early formations of Fairport Convention on his Top Gear programmes (I'm talking 1968/9 here). Not so sure about the L&L line up however.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 09:32 AM

Thanks, I'd completely forgot those radio sessions were one of the first Fairports CDs I acquired
soon after seeing them for the first time mid 2000s..

What I'm trying to figure out is how in the early to mid 70's
at a time when my folk rock tastes were forming
and Steeleye Span, Lindisfarne & Strawbs were storming the pop charts;
how I never heard any Fairports music played anywhere ???

I'm sure if I had I'd have got my hands on a their LPs
one way or another ???

Like I said, I was familiar with the LP titles and sleeves from the annual free Island Records catalogue
but can't remember ever seeing or hearing the Fairports on TV or radio,
or even any of my school mates recommending having a listen to them ????.

Had the fairports fallen out of favour with the mass media circa 1971 - 75;
approx when I was aged about 12 to 16 ????

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,David Owen
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 10:23 AM

Oh Leveller, you poor, sad, deluded man.
Pity you didn't get hold of that dictionary because once you'd finished looking up 'ageist' you could have flicked forward a few pages and looked up 'bigoted'

You are - to use your own words - a fuckwit and a moron.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 11:08 AM

"fuckwit fuckyou fuckwit fuckyou fuckwit fuckyou"


- an owl with Tourettes..



Blimey, Basil Brush's jokes are getting bluer in his old age !!!???

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 11:21 AM

Had a rare evening in and settled down to watch the show. Part of the weakness of the vocals was entirely due to the appalling mix I'm afraid. Simon has developed into a fine singer over the years and I also love Chris's voice. Admittedly I've had the pleasure and privilege of playing with these guys over the years so maybe I'm biased. If I'd never played the guitar but had just been a singer, Simon would be number one on my list of excellent and tasteful accompanists to work with. I would go as far as to say he is greatly underrated but then he's a modest bloke. I have also done some 10/12 shows opening for Richard and Linda in the early days and can vouch for the utter individuality of both his acoustic and electric playing. I know no other more inventive and unique sounding player. He simply and plainly does things that no other guitar player does.
Oddly enough, the album that ignited my interest was actually Full House. The sheer swagger of the opening bars of Patrick Spens rekindled my interest in the fiddle and I still don't think there's anything plodding or pedestrian about the approach. I love it.
The most important thing to say, however, is that AshleyH, Simon, Richard, DM, Swarb and Peggy et al are responsible for inventing something which wasn't there before. None of the rest of us will ever be able to make that claim. Some folks may not like it. Fair enough. Nevertheless, the world is better off with it than without it. Good luck to 'em.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 12:11 PM

I'm one of those sad pensioners who not only bought Liege and Lief when it came out, but also heard/saw Fairport in concert at the Royal Festival Hall in 1969, and it's still one of my alltime favourites. I suspect the reason I still love it is because I first heard it as a teenager - and because, while still a young, precocious and arrogant singer myself, I used to divide female singers into two categories:- the ones I loved to listen to and the ones who made me wish it was me singing the song instead. Sandy Denny was and still is always in the former category. And she was also great because she could switch compellingly between trad and self-penned (as can Banjiman's missus, whom I'd also put in the former category).

Kitty

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 01:23 PM

Punkfolker and Dave Sutherland (aha Dave, when are you going to persuade Shirley Collins to do another show at Tigerfolk?) The Liege and Lief lineup of Fairport definitely did do a John Peel Session, I think September 1969. They performed Tam Lin, Reynardine and The Lady Is A Tramp (RT lead vocal!) Maybe more. There is an openreel tape of it in our loft somewhere.

There is also a tape somewhere of the John Peel Carol Service either that year or 1970. Rod Stewart singing Away In A Manger, Sonja Kristina singing Silent Night. Apparently Sonja was drafted in after Sandy Denny phoned in sick.


Probably the reason Fairport didn't get noticed by Punkfolkrocker is that they were slightly er, disorganised between 1971 and 1973!


I guess this just proves that I am a dinosaur, a pachyderm and a pensioner.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST, Paul Slade
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 07:41 PM

Ken Garner's Peel Sessions book - the standard reference on such matters - lists a Fairport session of Sept 27, 1969, featuring Sir Patrick Spens, Jigs & Reels, Medley, The Lady Is A Tramp and Reynardine.

There's no carol service listed in 1969, but there is one listed for December 26, 1970. The only artists mentioned are The Rudies, however. Maybe that's what Peel called the impromptu band you have in mind?

Facts - I love 'em.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 03:29 AM

"Oh Leveller, you poor, sad, deluded man."


Well, at least you've dropped the 'illiterate' which, coming from someone whose command of the English language is, to say the least, cursory, I found most amusing. My need for a dictionary obviously isn't as pressing as yours. Indeed, if I need to find the meaning of a word, I can just call my old friend, the esteemed lexicographer, Tony Cowie , who is also my son's godfather.

As for 'sad', I'm actually happy to have been able to pull up an ageist bigot, and as for 'deluded' - not in the least; I can certainly recognise ageism, racism, sexism, homophobia and other prejudices when I see them and I'll continue to fight against them and people like you who perpetrate them.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 04:01 AM

The Peel Carol Service is the stuff of legend featuring an all-star line-up including more typical underground Peel fodder such as Robert Wyatt and Ivor Cutler alongside Marc Bolan and Rod Stewart. For more on this see HERE. There is a photograph (included in Mike King's Wrong Movements - A Robert Wyatt History) but I haven't been able to track it down on line.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: davyr
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 04:34 AM

punkfolkrocker said "but can't remember ever seeing or hearing the Fairports on TV or radio".

It was claimed in Friday's documentary that Fairport only ever appeared on TV once.

I remember seeing them twice, both times on Top Of The Pops. On the first occasion (1969), they performed Si Tu Dois Partir, with Ashley Hutchings dressed as a French Onion Johnny, bowing a double bass with a baguette.

The second appearance was in TOTP's "album spot", a short-lived experiment which allowed bands to perform two tracks from a recently-released LP, but only on condition that they agreed to mime.

Fairport played the title track from Angel Delight (so it must have been summer 1971), followed by the instrumental medley. In protest at having to mime, Swarb very slowly and deliberately put down his mandolin and picked up his fiddle, thus ensuring that the second tune of the medley was well underway by the time he started "playing". Dave Mattacks wore a T-shirt with "I am miming" on the front.

I also remember Tony Blackburn (!) playing "John Lee" (which Fairport released as a single from the Babbacombe Lee album) on his Radio 1 breakfast show in November 1971. He obviously didn't play it by choice, as he made a sarky comment to the effect that he "supposed Fairport fans would like it..."

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 04:48 AM

Dave Mattacks wore a T-shirt with "I am miming" on the front.

I've a distinct memory of a follow-up TV appearance in which Mattacks had swapped the 'Miming' shirt for one that read 'Bored Stiff'. Please tell me I didn't imagine it.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Brakn
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 05:05 AM

Wasn't there a documentary, late 60s 70s, about music in London in which FC played "Now Be Thanful"? I know it was on Virgin Arts a couple of months ago.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 09:10 AM

Anyway, all tune in to BBC4 tomorrow night for the "Folk blues & beyond" concert with the two Toms - Paley and Jones, Yes, that one. I'm not making this up.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,David Owen
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 09:55 AM

Leveller - you really have got NO IDEA what you are talking about.
Go back to stroking your beard and moaning about the miners strike.
I'm out of here now, you're boring me.
And if you ever dare to suggest that I'm racist or sexist I'll happily get my lawyer to sue your miserable sorry arse.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 11:26 AM

So then, it appears the Fairports peaked around 69/70
then all but disappeared from wider public awareness;
and the growing pop chart success of the 'folk rock' bands that followed afterwards..

One of the very first 7" singles I bought for myself out of my own saved up pocket money
was "Lindesfarne's "Lady Eleanor" on it's re-release in 1972.

My early teen enthusiasm for music was dominated by the commercial folk rock of Lindisfarne
[& to a lesser extent Steeleye Span],
and the more exciting glam rock of Bowie and Alice Cooper.

Just wonder what difference might have been if I'd had the chance to hear the Fairports as well
at that crucial stage of my developing musical horizons..???

In the mid 70s my favourite 'folk rock' band was Lindisfarne breakaway act "Jack the Lad".
After witnessing their energetic aggressive shovel dance
as highlight of a televised gig on "Geordie Scene"
I immediately went out to the shops to get their LP...

1975 my 2 favourite bands were Dr Feelgood and Jack The Lad.
I was teaching myself to play guitar to their LPs.....


Then in late 76 punk rock happened...

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 12:23 PM

. But why does every thread on Mudcat turn into insults and nastiness?

Amen.

"Good morning"

"How dare you say it's a good morning - it's a rotten morning for mnay people, and you are just sneering at them."

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 04:55 AM

The Clash of the Century: David Owen and his Lawyer versus The Leveller and his Lexicographer. Book your seats now...

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 05:52 AM

sounds like the title of a modern classic steampunk graphic novel...???

is there a parental warning for graphic language and extreme violence !!!???

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 06:18 AM

Fairport were booked to appear on Colour Me Pop on BBC2 TV (in colour!) in late 1969. However, they were unable to appear - I imagine that Sandy Denny had just left.

Undeterred, the BBC played Sir Patrick Spens from a radio session, with Sandy Denny singing and Swarb playing too. That was presumably from the Peel session of 27 September 1969. It deserved a place on Heyday but eventually emerged on Live at the BBC.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 09:31 AM

'Folk rock was a half-baked idea that had a few great moments but has outstayed its welcome by about 35 years.'

So says 'Guest' in the post above, 15 Sep 12 - 10:08 PM. Try telling that to the thousands that flock to Cropredy every year, or to the fans of the likes of Oysterband or the Demon Barbers, who sell out everywhere they perform, or those good people who rammed the festival marquee and bought bucketloads of CD's at Swanage Folk Festival this year when we performed.

And just to add another to the list above of Fairport's TV appearances, they did a televised concert in the (otherwise dreadful) series 'Cue the Music' presented by Pete Waterman, I've still got the video somewhere!

John

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 09:36 AM

Well, a week farther on and tonight's feature on BBC 4 is Tom Jones. Let's see how many fall outs there are about this.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 09:56 AM

It does strike me as strange when people with some kind of interest in folk music show this desperate appetite for novelty, so that something that was fine a handful of years becomes outdated and despicable within a couple of decades.

That isn't how folkmusic has ever worked. It's about building on the past, not rejecting it.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: davyr
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 12:51 PM

Bounty Hound said:

"And just to add another to the list above of Fairport's TV appearances, they did a televised concert in the (otherwise dreadful) series 'Cue the Music' presented by Pete Waterman, I've still got the video somewhere!"

How did I forget that? I've still got it somewhere as well! It was, however, presented by Mike Mansfield, I believe.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 01:24 PM

My memory of the "TV" comment isn't that Frank Skinner said they'd "only appeared on TV once" but that they'd "only appeared on TOTP once".

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: G-Force
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 12:20 PM

'The Liege and Lief lineup of Fairport definitely did do a John Peel Session, I think September 1969. They performed Tam Lin, Reynardine and The Lady Is A Tramp (RT lead vocal!) Maybe more.'

I definitely remember hearing The Lady is a Tramp on the radio - it started with the worst (or best?) knock-knock I've ever heard:

RT: 'Knock knock'
All: 'Who's there?'
RT: 'Tickets to Hungary'
All: 'Tickets to Hungary who?'

And then straight into the song: 'Tickets to Hungary for dinner at eight ...'. All the better for being so unexpected.