Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 02:36 PM

'common-sense contradicts this'
Really? Who's common sense? Please explain.

'The bulk of our knowledge of the repertoire does not pre-date the beginning of the 20th century'
I think I understand what you're trying to say but I disagree anyway.
As for the ballads, what Child has to say on the ballads (not always right) has still not been surpassed even in the 21st century.

As for the English repertoire 89% of it existed on commercial sheets of some sort before the likes of Sharp came along and indeed that 89% is the earliest extant form of each item in the canon, whether that be 16thc, 17thc, 18thc or 19thc.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 02:37 PM

Corr. line 2 . For who's read whose

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 03:39 PM

Jon,
I'm now even more convinced the 2 songs had separate origins. They exist as separate entities in far more versions than there are hybrids. I'll be able to quantify that shortly.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 04:18 PM

Jon,
Currently I can only find the 2 Somerset versions that are hybrids, those of Jack Barnard and William Davis. All 8 versions are pretty fragmentary and somewhat corrupt anyway.

I've been looking through Child's continental versions in his headnotes and some of the verses seem to be pretty universal.

Hare motif...French and Moravian
Duck motif...Polish
Fish/angler/net motif...French, Moravian, Polish, Serb and German.

It seems likely that some sort of song existed in English on the theme
prior to 1800, though Buchan often takes his themes from the continent and Scandinavia as did the 18thc hacks.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 04:38 PM

Jon,
It just occurred to me that people your side of the pond might find a collated English text of 'Knife in the Window' useful. This is collated from the versions of Harry Cox (Norfolk), Bill Whiting (Berkshire) and Jack Barnard (Somerset) as shown.

Last Saturday night young Nancy laid sleeping x2
And into her bedroom young Johnny went a-creeping
With his long fol-the-riddle-ido right down to his knee. (HC)

He said Lovely Nancy, may I come to bed to you x2
She smiled and replied, John, I'm afraid you'll undo me. (HC)

Now the door it is bolted and I cannot undo it
The door it is bolted and I cannot undo it.
O now she replied you must put your knee to it. (BW)

So I put my knee to it and the door flew asunder x2
And upstairs I went like lightning and thunder. (BW)

My breeches fit tight, love, I cannot undo them, x2
She smiled and replied, John, you must take a knife to them. (HC)

My knife will not cut, love, it ain't worth a cinder x2
She smiled and replied, John, there's two on the window (HC)

He picked up the knife and he unrest his breeches x2
The knife it was sharp and it cut through the stitches (HC)

His small clothes fell from him and into bed tumbled x2 (HC)
I'll leave you to guess how the gay couple fumbled (Jack Barnard)

All the night long how they rolled and they tumbled x2
Before daylight in the morning Nancy's nightgown he crumpled (HC)

Now nine months being past it fell on a Sunday x2
A child it was born with a knife-mark in the window. (HC)


The last line of course is a motif found in many comic songs dating back centuries.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 04:41 PM

>Hare motif...French and Moravian
Duck motif...Polish
Fish/angler/net motif...French, Moravian, Polish, Serb and German.

Aren't these almost invariably in the English versions as well? "Rushes a-growing" appear less often, but then there are so few texts that it may well mean nothing.

Do we know that the continental versions antedate the English, including Lover's?

I would expect not - which leaves us nowhere in terms of the direction of influence.

The wide distribution of the European cognates, however, does suggest a very old oral tradition.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 04:42 PM

On second thoughts the 8th verse fits better from Bill Whiting.

Now her small things fell off her and (he) into bed tumbled x2
And I'll leave you to guess how (the) young couple fumbled.

(Whiting uses the first person here which is inconsistent.)

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 04:49 PM

motifs. Yes, that's why I mention them.

Actually, 'Rushes a-growing' is at least as common as the ducks and hares, the fish less so.

Child gives all of his sources and dates so it would be a moment's job to check them. You might need to look up the publication dates in Vol 5. I would guess they are older than the English versions.

I agree on 'old tradition'. The theme is also very common in folktales and Child quotes some of these as well.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 05:09 PM

Jon,
Sheet music emailed.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 06:55 PM

Thanks, Steve. I'll have a close look at it tomorrow morning.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 04:17 AM

"Really? Who's common sense? Please explain"
People are known to have made song independent of print throughout the 19th and into the twentieth century - the large repertoire of unpublished local Irish songs made as times such as those you described as their being too busy staying alive and feeding their families - famines, wars - civil and international), mass evictions, mass emigration, general hardship and poverty, oppression...... examples of this, are to be found from Travellers, the bothies, soldiers, seamen, textile workers, miners, and, no doubt from other group and communities (all independent of print and serving people who either couldn't or chose not to rely on literacy for their own culture.
All have produced a wealth of home-made songs, on these events and of life in general - man, it seems, is a natural song-maker with an in-built need to record his and her life in verse.
Yet you describe our folk repertoire as being no different from the pop songs produced for the mass market and the audiences as being mere recipients of a product - produced by an anonymous school of poets who have proved themselves less than adequate to create such gems as those to be found in our traditional repertoire - HACKS in name and description.
Any small knowledge we have of our song traditions - and it is minute - comes from the end of the 19th century, when our traditions were largely in decline, and to dismiss our people who we know to have made songs as "retired people scribbling verse" is, to me, is totally illogical.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 09:58 AM

I am also reminded of the Yeoman of Kent? He scrawling, she tugging, with hauling and lugging through window at last he got in?

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:31 PM

Deja-vu, Jim. Nobody could deny what you say about rural people making songs, I've seen plenty myself. None of the ones I've seen made it into the folk canon though, for whatever reason. Perhaps they didn't have access to the distribution system the printers had.

At the risk of repeating myself, for about the 50th time on various threads, 20th century Ireland has very little in common with 17th-early 18thc southern England.

"retired people scribbling verse". Where did you get that quote from, Jim?

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:45 PM

Just for the record the word 'hack' here does not mean an old weary horse. It is related to the slang word for journalists. It simply means lyricists at the bottom end of the literary world, some of them only temporarily. Some of our more celebrated poets have been known to try their hand in their early days when in need of a bob or two.

Don't forget also that a goodly portion of this material originated in the theatres and the pleasure gardens of London, before finding its way onto street lit. and then into oral tradition.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:48 PM

Oops! That 6.31 post line 2 should read. 18th-early 19thc. It's getting late over here!

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 08:24 PM

Steve, I'm too musically illiterate to turn your sheet music into ABC for the interest of all, but I do see that the melody is very different from anything I'm familiar with, including the tune in Petrie.

That music, BTW, is credited to "Hermann Loehr."

Not even the stanza form is same as in "Rory O'More":

Oh! if all the young maidens was blackbirds and thrishes,
                                          was blackbirds and thrishes,
It's then the young men would be batin' the bushes.


Oh! if all the young maidens was ducks in the wather,
                                        was ducks in the wather,...
[Etc.]

One likely interpretation is that Lover gave traditional lyrics in the traditional pattern in "Rory O'More." These he adapted, with Loehr's help, into a new parlor song of his own.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 03:22 AM

"Deja-vu, Jim. Nobody could deny what you say about rural people making songs, "
You have in the past Steve - you've written it off somewhat disparagingly.
"None of the ones I've seen made it into the folk canon though, for whatever reason."
Then you really haven't looked at them.
"None of the ones I've seen made it into the folk canon though, for whatever reason"
The "folk canon" was a definition decided on by collectors and academics desperately researching songs they believed (with some justification) were rapidly disappearing and totally without reference to their history within the communities they were found or the significance to the people who sang them.
It is an artificial definition based on thin evidence.
These songs lay side by side with the 'traditional' songs and ballads in the repertoire of those who sang them and many were indistinguishable in form - the love songs certainly weren't.
It is an outsider's analysis which has nothing to do with the communities that gave life to the songs and without having excamined them, you have no grounds for making any claims on them, yet you8 dismissed them as the scribblings of retired people.
The fact is that, though you might have traced some versions of folk songs to broadside sources, you have yet to prove that any of them originated on the broadside presses, yet, on that basis, you are prepared to disenfranchise "the Folk" from their role as song creator and that they weren't products of the communities in which they were found - even the broadside printers and contemporary witnesses, such as Isaac Walton, referred to them as "country songs".
"It is related to the slang word for journalists."
Yet another excuse among others you have afford to substantiate your theory.
It is a dictionary based word referring to bad poetry and journalism and every definition I have access to (unless you have another I've missed) refers to the mediocrity of the product - which is my point.
It is highly unlikely that the same hacks that filled volume after volume with clumsy, unsingable songs, such as Roxborough, Euing, Ashton and Hindley, also produced our folk repertoire, with it's vitality, subtlety and basis in experience.
Anybody suggesting such a hypothesis is honour-bound to produce more argument than retired old people" and re-definitions of the term "hack".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 04:40 AM

Jim,
Whatever mistakes or selectivity the collectors of the material made, I made it very clear that this was the corpus of material I was using. By using your own definitions you are adding in material that was not being discussed and which is not part of that corpus. We are therefore trying to compare very different repertoires. I am not disparaging in any way your corpus of material. I'm sure it is very valid and I could easily produce a similar corpus of material from my own area.

You keep constantly trying to put words into my mouth that I haven't said.

I repeat: where did you get this quotation from, your own writing?
''retired people scribbling verse''

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 04:53 AM

Lover and Lohr can't have collaborated on anything, Jon.
Lover died before Lohr was born.
The sheet music I sent you is a typical parlour piece of the period. Well-known composers often reset earlier material with their own arrangements of the tunes and often restructured the song. I have lots of examples of this using old English songs and folk songs. However, the interest to us is to what extent these pieces of sheet music then went on to influence oral tradition. For example, how many versions of 'Barbara Allen' from oral tradition were influenced by the many printed versions both on broadsides and on sheet music?

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 05:58 AM

" By using your own definitions you are adding in material that was not being discussed and which is not part of that corpus. "
Only as an example of the fact that people have always created songs independent of that which was sold to them - which you dismissed out of hand.
The fact that they were not included in the main corpus is down entirely to an ignorance of their existence - I have to admit that, up to the time we started working with people who had been part of a living, thriving tradition, we had been totally unaware of the enormity and scope of the unrecorded local repertoire, but that was due to our relying on a highly questionable body of information gathered by collectors who were doing little more than collecting butterflies.
I'm working on archiving our masses of American field recordings at present and have become aware of how much further advanced research has been in the U.S. than it has over here, but even there, actual information gathered from source singers is fairly thin o the ground.
The fact that these local songs have not been part of our researches in the past only serves to underline our ignorance on the making and transmission of the repertoire
"retired people scribbling verse''" You've asked this before and I provided the source ( (my current reiteration of it should not have been in quotation marks, as it was a paraphrase of what you actually wrote - but it boiled down to the same thing, retired people writing poetry for their own satisfaction - that is how you wrote off my suggestion - if memory serves, it was on a tread discussing 'Higher Germany'.
My point remains; you have yet to prove that the vast bulk of our folksong repertoire originated on the broadside presses, yet you continue to make it as a definitive statement and you make excuses for the anomalies in your claims - are we to assume that your re-definition of the term 'hack' was just that - your redefinition, was it yet another excuse, along with revolutionary broadside writes who have possible worked on the land or served at sea in order to have obtained the insight which enabled them to create folksongs?
If you are going to deny working people recognition for having created a repertoire of songs reflecting their experiences, you at least owe them more evidence that that so far offered.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 07:59 AM

Steve, what we need then is a copy of Lover's 1830s sheet music.

The British Library Catalogue lists Lover's "Songs of Rory O'More" (London, 1837).

That would be the item to examine. No copy appears to be on line.

The collection of six songs was noticed in the "Spectator" X (June 3, 1837), 523.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 05:09 PM

Jon, I'll try the BL online catalogue.

Jim,
Every piece of literature/work of art that exists cannot have a cast- iron proven origin. In most cases the majority of us are prepared to accept that the earliest extant known version is likely to be either the origin or close to it.

You certainly can't give instances of a proven rural origin for any of the songs collected by the collectors in England.

I can at least demonstrate conclusively that 89% of that corpus has as its earliest extant manifestation something that was commercially produced in an urban environment. I have the materials in front of me. However, I don't base my hypothesis on this; it is based on 40-odd years of close studying the material that entered oral tradition and a great deal that didn't.

Now, unless you have something fresh to say, I don't propose to upset you any further.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 08:55 AM

Darley & McCall's "Feis Ceoil Collection of Irish Airs" (1914) affords a very nice version of the tune, titled only "Im Bo (Milking Song)":

http://www.tunearch.org/wiki/Im_B%C3%B3

It was "Played by Brian Mac Intyre, fiddler, Virginia, Co. Cavan." The editors observe that "There must have been an old Gaelic song sung to this air (Im, butter; Bo, a cow)."

D & Mc began collecting in 1897.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: GUEST,Kevin W. aka Reynard the Fox on Youtube
Date: 17 May 25 - 08:02 AM

Is it ok to reply to old mudcat threads when there's something new to ad? I apologise if it isn't.

Recently I've been listening to recordings of a blind traditional singer and accordion player named Dorman Ralph (1923-1999) from St. John's, Newfoundland. He was recorded by Prof. Kenneth S. Goldstein on August 20, 1981.

One of the songs he sang that day was the following, excellent version of "The Knife in the Window":

I says "Pretty Polly, can I have a night with you?",
I says "Pretty Polly, can I have a night with you?",
Slowly she cried, "you can if you wishes",
Fal-a-dee-fal-a-dero-fal-a-dero-lye-dee.

She went up the stairs for to do up her bedy,
She went up the stairs for to do up her bedy,
Slowly she cried, "come on, I am ready",
Fal-a-dee-fal-a-dero-fal-a-dero-lye-dee.

"Your room door is locked, love, and I can not enter",
"Your room door is locked, love, and I can not enter",
Slowly she cried, "come burst it asunder",
Right fal-a-daddle-ero-fal-a-dero-lye-dee.

He put his knee against it, and burst it asunder,
He put his knee against it, and burst it asunder,
Into the bed, this young girl she lay under,
Fal-a-dee-fal-a-dero-fal-a-dero-lye-dee.

"Your breeches is tied, love, and I can't undo them",
"Your breeches is tied, love, and I can't undo them",
Slowly she cried, "take a knife and run through them",
Fal-a-dee-fal-a-dero-fal-a-dero-lye-dee.

"I got no knife on me, sure, that's a great wonder",
"I got no knife on me, sure, that's a great wonder",
Slowly she cried, "I have two on the window",
Fal-a-dee-fal-a-dero-fal-a-dero-lye-dee.

"Your lamp has gone out, love, and I can not find it",
"Your lamp has gone out, love, and I can not find it",
Slowly she cried, "jump in bed and don't mind it",
Fal-a-dee-fal-a-dero-fal-a-dero-lye-dee.

They jumped into bed and it was thumble or bumble,
They jumped into bed and it was thumble or bumble,
That's what she got by her laying a-dumble,
Fal-a-dee-fal-a-dero-fal-a-dero-lye-dee.

The eighth month being over, Pretty Polly fell a-weeping,
The eighth month being over, Pretty Polly fell a-weeping,
That's what she got by her snoring and sleeping,
Fal-a-dee-fal-a-diddle-o-fal-a-dero-lye-dee.

The ninth month being over, Pretty Polly fell asunder,
The ninth month being over, Pretty Polly fell asunder,
That's what she got by her night laying under,
Fal-a-dee-fal-a-dero-fal-a-dero-lye-dee.

Dorman Ralph learned the song from a man named Abraham Burton circa 1953-1954.

Variations of the tune have been used for several songs, from the top of my head:

The Knife in the Window / Pretty Polly / Crawling and Creeping (Roud No. 12590)
Hares on the Mountain / Blackbirds and Thrushes (Roud No. 329)
Down by the Glenside / The Bold Fenian Men (Roud No. 9266)
Bonnie Annie / The Green Banks of Yarrow (Child No. 24, Roud No. 172)

The original recording can be listened to here, the song starts at 36:50:
https://egrove.olemiss.edu/kgreels_can/183/

I also mirrored it on my Youtube folk channel:
https://youtu.be/WJlORhs9Wk8

I can also add the following short, beautiful text of "Blackbirds and Thrushes". It was sung by Charles O'Boyle (father of folk song collector Sean O'Boyle) of Belfast, Northern Ireland. Recorded by Sean O'Boyle and Peter Kennedy for the BBC on July 7, 1952.

Ach, if all the young ladies, was ducks on the water,
Ach, if all the young ladies, was ducks on the water,
Then all the young men they'd be all swimming after,
Right fal-de-lal-fol-deesel-dum-day

Ach, if all the young ladies, was blackbirds and thrushes,
Ach, if all the young ladies, was blackbirds and thrushes,
Then all the young men would go beating the bushes.
Right fal-de-lal-fol-deesel-dum-day

Ach, if all the young ladies, was rushes a-growing,
Ach, if all the young ladies, was rushes a-growing,
Then all the young men would go all a-mowing,
Right fal-de-lal-fol-deesel-dum-day

The website of the British Library Sound Archive changed completely since last time I visited it, sadly I'm unable to find the link to the original recording anymore.

I mirrored the recording on my Youtube folk channel so it can be listened to:
https://youtu.be/0KBFNKyYqRU

According to the BBC index (quoting from a mudcat post written by Jim Carroll) Charles O'Bolye was:
"Aged 74 and in failing health at time of recording; he died shortly after. Father of Sean O'Boyle, who worked as folk song collector for the BBC in Northern Ireland 1952-5. Charles inherited much of his singing from his mother, who was born in Donaghadee, Co. Down where there is a strong Scots tradition, but she lived most of her life in Belfast. He was a teacher, but from 1914-20 (interrupted by the war) he studied and worked in Cork with Hardebeck the musician and collector. He became secretary to Hardebeck who was blind, and made musical and Gaelic transcriptions and translations for him - his work is acknowledged by Hardebeck in the preface to Pt. III of Gems of Melody. One of his songs: 'Sweet William's Ghost', transcribed from the BBC recording, is printed in JEFDSS 1956.

Subject: RE: lyr/Origins: Pretty polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Lighter
Date: 17 May 25 - 10:00 AM

Thanks so much for transcribing and posting these excellent versions, Kevin.

After ten years, Lover's tune to his own "Blackbirds ad Thrushes" is not yet on line, so far as I've found.

Subject: RE: Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)
From: GUEST,Kevin W. aka Reynard the Fox on Youtube
Date: 25 May 25 - 06:14 AM

Charles O'Boyle sang three verses of "Blackbirds and Thrushes" and he pointed out that there was another verse that was a little objectionable and the tradition around the country was not to sing that verse. So he also skipped it.

But that made curious, has anyone ever come across a verse that was more on the bawdy side? I wish we could find out what verse it was that he felt should be skipped.

Are there any texts from Ireland/N. Ireland with more than three verses?

Subject: RE: Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 25 - 07:26 AM

All the long night how they rolled and they tumbled.
Before daylight i’ the morning Nancy’s nightgown he crumbled
With his long fol-the-riddle-i-do right down to his knee.

Now nine months being past, it fell on a Sunday,
A child it was born with a knife-mark in the window
With a long fol-the-riddle-i-do right down to his knee.

Subject: RE: Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)
From: GUEST,Kevin W. aka Reynard the Fox on Youtube
Date: 25 May 25 - 08:45 AM

I'm sorry for double posting. Today I was reading about the origins of a version of "Hares on the Mountain" (Roud No. 329) as sung by Horton Barker of Chilhowie, Smyth County, Virginia, originally from Tennessee. Recorded by Maud Karpeles in September 1950.

The recording is available on the album "When Cecil left the Mountains: Historic recordings of Appalachian singers and musicians 1927 - 1955" (2017) Musical Traditions MTCD514-5.

Song transcription as follows:

Young women they'll run like hares on the mountain
Young women they'll run like hares on the mountain
If I were but a young man I'd go and run after
To my right-fol-the-diddle-dee-ro,
to my right-fol-diddle-dee.

Young women they'll swim like ducks in the water
Young women they'll swim like ducks in the water
If I were but a young man I'd go and swim after
To my right-fol-the-diddle-dee-ro,
to my right-fol-diddle-dee.

Young women they'll sing like birds in the bushes
Young women they'll sing like birds in the bushes
If I were but a young man I'd go bang those bushes
To my right-fol-the-diddle-dee-ro,
to my right-fol-diddle-dee.

Horton Barker learned this song from Andrew Rowan Summers, a folk revival singer and folk song collector from Virginia. Summers recorded the same version (same tune, same words, one extra verse) on his album "Seeds of love" (1951) Folkways Records - FA 2021. Summers was a regular at the White Top Folk Festival held on Whitetop Mountain in Grayson County, Virginia from 1931 to 1939 which Horton Barker also visited.

Andrew Rowan Summers' version was originally collected by Cecil Sharp from Louie Hooper and her half-sister Lucy Anna White in Hambridge, Langport, Somerset, England in September 1903. So this wasn't an American version, but one that re-entered the repertoire of a traditional singer via the folk revival.

According to the album liner notes Andrew Rowan Summers learned the song in 1940 (I don't know where, I'm guessing it was at a folk festival) and later heard an extra verse in 1943. Horton Barker didn't sing that verse, it goes as follows:

Young women they bloom like laurel in the springtime
Young women they bloom like laurel in the springtime
If I were but a young man I'd soon go and pluck some.

A sound recording of Louisa Hooper singing the song exists. She was recorded by Douglas Cleverdon for the BBC on February 7, 1942.

The recording used to be available digitally. I would've enjoyed listening to it, to complete the picture between Horton Barker's version and its origin. But as of now I can't, the website is no longer available.

Does anyone know what happened to the British Library Sound Archive website?

It used to be available at "British Library Sounds":
https://sounds.bl.uk/

There's a Wikipedia entry on the website here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Library_Sounds

The link to the digital archive no longer works. If you know what happened to it and when/if the website comes back let me know. The website was a treasure trove of field recordings of British folk music in the past.

Subject: RE: Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Lighter
Date: 25 May 25 - 09:27 AM

"Bang those bushes" and "pluck some" might have seemed to risque for some.

Up thread I posted stanzas from Francis O'Neill in which the young men "strip off" to swim after. That might have been a little too graphic for some singers.

Of course, there may have been many unrecorded possibilities.

Subject: RE: Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Jack Horntip
Date: 26 May 25 - 06:33 PM

ROLL YOUR LEG OVER

I left Milne Bay with a low desire (3 times)
Scratching my itches, my balls were on fire,
So roll your leg over, Roll your leg over once moe.

I went to a hotel a-scratching my itches ( 3 times)
The first thing I did was to haul down my breetches,
So roll your leg over, roll your leg over once more.

I met with a maiden and she was a-weeping, ( 3 times)
And then there began such a crawling and creeping,
So roll your leg over, Roll your leg over once more.

I said to the maid, "May I come to bed with yer?" ( Three ti
The maiden replied "You're not handcuffed or tied,
So roll your leg over, Roll you leg over once more."

I said to the Maiden "I cannot get in yer" (3 times)
The maiden replied "There's a knifed by the winder"
So roll your leg over, Roll you leg over once more.

The knife it was sharp and her drawers split asunder (3 times
And then we heard music and lightning and thunder,
So roll you leg over, Roll your leg over once more.

In three months' time the maid sat a-weeping, ( 3 times)
And then she remembered the crawling and creeping,
So roll your leg over, roll your leg over once more.

In six months time the baby stirred in her (3 times)
And then she remembered the knife by the winder.
So roll your leg over, roll you leg over once more.

In nine months time the maid split asunder, (3 times)
And then she remembered the lightning and thunder,
So roll your leg over, roll your leg over once more.

Now all you young maidens, let this be a warning (3 times)
Don't leave your precautions until the next morning,
So roll your leg over, roll your leg over once more.

1945. Mess Songs and Rhymes of the RAAF [Royal Australian Air Force].



See here: https://archive.org/details/1945messsongsandrhymesoftheraaf/page/17/mode/1up

Subject: RE: Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Jack Horntip
Date: 26 May 25 - 07:51 PM

ONE NIGHT, LATE IN AUGUST. [[ hand written in backets "a creeping and crawling"]

One night, late in August,
Mary lay a-sleeping                 (repeat couplet)
When along came a corp'ral on his hands and knees acreeping.
With his long funny-doodle dangling
Way down to his knees.

When there months were over,
May fell aweeping (repeat)
She wept for the corp'ral on his hands and knees a creeping
With his long funny-doodle dangling
Way down to his knees.

When six months were over
Mary grew fatter        (repeat)
And everyone wonder whothehell had been at her
With his long etc. etc.

When nine months were over
Mary burst asunder        (repeat)
And out jumped a kid with a regimental number
And his long funny-doodle         etc. etc.

c1926. Hubert L. Canfield Collection. pp.211. Superlative
bawdy songs and poem MS collection collected by Hubert L. Canfield,
Pittsford, New York. Dated 1925-1926, this extensive collection is
comparable to Gordon "Inferno" Collection at the Library of Congress.


See here: https://archive.org/details/1926canfieldcollection/page/60/mode/1up?q=creeping

Subject: RE: Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Jack Horntip
Date: 26 May 25 - 08:04 PM

IN THE TALL GRASS 185

In the tall tall grass
Young Mary lay a-sleeping
When out of the tall grass
A pilot came a-creeping
With his long dingle dangle dingling
Right down to his knee.

Three months have gone by
Young Mary she grew bolder
She wished that the pilot
Would come and do it over
With his long dangle dingle dangling

Six months have gone by
And Mary she grew fatter
The neighbors did wonder
Just who had been at her
With his long dingle dangle dingling
Right down to his knee.

Nine months have gone by
And Mary burst asunder
And out jumped a pilot
With his 67th number
With his long dangle dingle dangling
Right down to his knee.

1963. Fighter Pilots Songbook 421st TFS


See here: https://archive.org/details/1963fighterpilotssongbook-421st-tfsgetzcollectionno-025/page/92/mode/1up?q=creeping

Subject: RE: Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Jack Horntip
Date: 26 May 25 - 08:12 PM

CREEPTING AND CRAWLING

One night as I was crawling and creeping, creeping, creeping
I spied a young maiden so peacefully sleeping
So roll you leg over, so roll your leg over, over more

I said to her can I come to be with you
And then she replied you're not hancuffed or tied
So roll you leg over, so roll your leg over, over more.

Her drawers were tight and I could not get in them
And then she replied there's a knife on the table

The knife was sharp and her drawers split asunder
And then we were banging like lightening and thunder
So roll your leg over, so roll you leg over, over more.

In about nine months lay the poor maid asunder
And then she remembered the lightning and thunder
So roll your leg over, so roll your leg over, over more.

1963. Fighter Pilots Songbook 421st TFS. Song #220



See here: https://archive.org/details/1963fighterpilotssongbook-421st-tfsgetzcollectionno-025/page/109/mode/1up?q=creeping

Subject: RE: Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 25 - 08:25 PM

Rarely collected, but Oscar Brand recorded his similar but slightly less ribald version in 1955 as "The Sergeant."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-0Fo1lk-SY

Roud seems not to know of the song, which may be descended from "The Knife in the Window" but is considerably different.

Subject: RE: Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Jack Horntip
Date: 26 May 25 - 08:52 PM

ONE NIGHT IN MAY
(Ballad)

One night in May, as Mary lay a-sleeping,
One night in May, as Mary lay a-sleeping,
Along came a corporal on hands and knees a-creeping,
With his long funny dingle-dangle way down to his knees.

One month went by, and Mary was in clover.
One month went by, and Mary was in clover.
She wished that the corporal would come and do it over,
With his long funny dingle-dangle way down to his knees.

Three months went by, and Mary lay a-weeping.
Three months went by, and Mary lay a-weeping.
She wished that the corporal had never come a-creeping,
With his long funny dingle-dangle way down to his knees.

Six months went by, and Mary grew much bigger.
Six months went by, and Mary grew much bigger.
The neighbors all wondered just who the hell had frigged her,
With his long funny dingle-dangle way down to his knees.

Nine months went by, and Mary burst asunder,
Nine months went by, and Mary burst asunder,
And out jumped a corporal with regimental number,
And a long funny dingle-dangle way down to his knees.

c1943. Unexpurgated. Printed by Bidet Press. p.48.


See here: https://www.horntip.com/html/books_&_MSS/1940s/1943ca_unexpurgated_(PB)/1943ca_unexpurgated__bidet_press.pdf

Subject: RE: Origins: Pretty Polly (Knife in the Window)
From: Jack Horntip
Date: 26 May 25 - 09:10 PM

A-Creepin' and a-Crawlin'

Last Saturday night young Nancy laid sleeping (2x, throughout)
And into her bedroom young Johnny went a-creeping
    With his long fol-the-riddle-i-do right down to his knee

He said: Lovely Nancy, may I come to bed to you?
She smiled and replied: John, I'm afraid you'll undo me
    With your...

His small clothes fell from him and into bed tumbled
She laughed in his face when his breeches he fumbled
    With his...

My breeches fit tight, love, I cannot undo them
She smiled and replied: John, you must take a knife to them
    With your...

My knife will not cut, love, it ain't worth a cinder
She smiled and replied: John, there's two on the window
    With your...

He picked up the knife and he unrest his breeches
The knife it was sharp and it cut through the stitches
    With his...

All the night long how they rolled and they tumbled
Before daylight i' the morning Nancy's nightgown he crumpled
    With his...

Now nine months being past, it fell on a Sunday
A child it was born with a knife-mark in the window
With a long fol-the-riddle-i-do right down to his knee

see Knife in the Window, Sally My Dear, The Tinker
(from Peter Kennedy: Folksongs of Britain & Ireland. Sung by Harry Cox,
Catfield, Norfolk, 1953)