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Subject: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: JedMarum Date: 19 Aug 99 - 10:29 AM Reading Angela's Ashes I was reminded of a song I heard from time to time as a child growing up in the South of Boston. It seems my Irish extended family played or sang the song RODDY MCCORLEY, perhaps betraying their underlying repubican sympathies, but certainly planting a love for the song in my sub-conscious. I found an old song book at the Dallas library with the four verses and have begn playing it, but I am curious about the song's history. My reference attributes the song to Ethna Carbery, but does not date the song. I have discovered Roddy was a young patriot following Wolfe Tone in an unsuccessful 1798 uprising, that Wolfe Tone killed himself rather than give his captors the pleasure of executing him, and that Roddy Mc Corley, as the song goes, chose to march to his execution in a defiant display of courage. Anyone know any more about Roddy? Why was so young a man leading men in battle, as the song says? When was the song written? Is it still sung today in Ireland? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Aug 99 - 11:27 AM "Roddy McCorley was a Presbyterian from Duneane. He took part in the Battle of Antrim and went into hiding after it. After a year in hiding he was betrayed, tried in Ballymena and hanged in Toome on Good Friday 1799. There is another song on the same subject, written by Ethna Carbery in the 1890s. This song is an older ballad, probably composed in or soon after 1799." Liam, that's what I have found in a search on the web (not much, I'd like to know more, too). Both songs are in the DT, the older one spells Rody. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: JedMarum Date: 19 Aug 99 - 11:32 AM thanks. I'll look up the older song as well. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Aug 99 - 11:43 AM another bit found: Ethna Carbery wrote the newer (and better known) song in 1898 for the centenary of the rebellion. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Aug 99 - 11:55 AM another bit: "Ethna Carbery Ethna Carbery was the penname of Anna MacManus, née Johnston, who was born in Ballymena, County Antrim in 1866. She and Alice Milligan founded the paper called The Northern Patriot and afterwards another called The Shan Van Vocht. She was married to the Donegal writer and folkorist, Séumas MacManus, and died in 1902." |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Aug 99 - 12:15 PM Now I have found this bit which not only gives another date of death but also a less heroic tale: "After the defeat of the United Irishmen many were unable to return to their former lives and instead became brigands. The most notorious gang in Antrim was led by a man named Thomas Archer. Initially Archer's gang were popular outlaws, exacting revenge on loyalists in the district but, as time passed, their actions became less political and more criminal. During early 1800 the members of the gang were systematically brought to justice and executed. Roddy McCorley was hanged at Toome on 28 February." Who can help with the truth? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Big Mick Date: 19 Aug 99 - 12:32 PM I am about the business of seeing what I can find for you on this song and its history. I can tell you that it is indeed still sung in Ireland and with the 200th anniversary of the Rising of 1798 just past it has had something of a revival. The tune was also appropriated for a song about a latter day rebel, Joe MacDonald. Just as a bit of extra for you, here is are the lyrics to a version of it in Irish. There may be some spelling errors in there, but I think it is correct, for the most part. Ce/ hiad na sluaite fear is ban Ag gluiseacht fan na sli/ Siad fir is mna/ o/ chnoc's gleann 'S o/ bhruacha Bhanna Bui Ta/ faghairt 'na rosc 's feidhm 'na gcos' Ta/id mall, ro/mhall, monuar Mar ta/ Rodi Mac Corlai/ ag dul don chroch Ar Dhroichead Tuam' innui. Ani/os an tsra/id 's cheann go hard A ghabh an sa/rfhear groi/ 'S ro/p' a chrocht' ta/ fillte docht Faoi chuacha o/rg' a chinn Ni/l deoir na/ ne/al'na shu/ile gle/ Ta/id lonrach, gle/ineach, ciu/in Agus Rodi Mac Corlai/ ag dul don chroch Ar Dhroichead Tuam' innui Dob i/ sin sra/id a ghabh se/ la/ 'S pic 'na la/imh go dian 'Na dhiaidh aniar bhi/ bui/on fear fi/or 'S do/ chas ard 'na gcroi/ Go hAontraim ghluais an bhui/on go buach Dob eisean ceann an tslua Ach ta/ Rodi Mac Corlai/ ag dul don chroch Ar Dhroichead Tuam' inniu. ^^ |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Laura the Fiddler Date: 19 Aug 99 - 01:58 PM Young Roddy was presumably buried beneath the gallows, ick. Are there any recordings of the gaelic version? Thanks for shedding new light on one of my favorite songs! |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Philippa Date: 19 Aug 99 - 02:40 PM what's that about Joe McDonald? the other rebel song I know to the Roddy McCorley tune is 'Sean South of Garryowen' |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: John Moulden Date: 19 Aug 99 - 06:13 PM The date Friday 28th February 1800 is indubitably correct. The event is reported in the Belfast Newsletter of the following Tuesday. This date is impossibly Good Friday. The points posted by Wolfgang concerning Roddy's involvement with Thomas Archer are largely true. However, the account in the Newsletter is filtered through a politics which would label all such people villains. I believe that the truth is that Roddy was "out" in June 1798 but was not one of those for whom a reward was offered. Archer's gang was patriotic in intent, most of its activities consisted of robbing for guns or "punishing" those who were believed to be informers. However, they also committed some robberies and paid off old personal scores. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Henry Date: 19 Aug 99 - 09:18 PM The reference to Mc Corley being a Presbyterian are contradicted by what I believe to be a ballad composed very shortly after his death wherein a reference is made to a Priest attending him. This particular song is not as popular as the marching tune "Young Roddy Mc Corley goes to die on the bridge of Toome today". In my personal estimation it is a much superior song and deserves to be more widely known. I can't help but draw a parallel between this and the two versions of "The Croppy Boy", one decidedly Victorian English in its expression of patriotism and the other more of the people. I would value John Moulden's comments. Henry |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Big Mick Date: 21 Aug 99 - 01:56 PM What the hell is going on here? I posted a reply to Philippa the 19th or 20th and it has disappeared!!
I will try to recall it but it went something like:
OHMUHGAWD...........My credentials as being of a Republican persuasion just went out the window.............It is indeed "Sean South" and not Joe McDonald. I must have been distracted when I wrote that.........Shit, I hate it when that happens. I do "Sean...." as part of a medley of "Little Place called Ireland - Sean South - Boys of the Old Brigade". Thanks for the correction, Philippa. What is that now, 18 or 19?? Damn, Mick, pay attention. |
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Subject: Roddy McCauley From: GUEST,l_man Date: 15 Aug 06 - 01:26 AM What is the name of the traditional Irish melody that Ethna Carberry's song is sung to? |
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Subject: RE: Roddy McCauley From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Aug 06 - 03:47 AM Hi - there's a good discussion the tune for this song above, so I'm going to close l-man's thread and move the messages here so we don't split the discussion. ...but the quick answer is that the tune is "Sean South of Garryowen." -Joe Offer- Here's what the Traditional Ballad Index says about the song: Roddy McCorleyDESCRIPTION: "Oh see the fleet-foot host of men..." who are hurrying to stage a rescue. "For young Roddy McCorley goes to die on the bridge of Toome today." They are too late. The song recalls McCorley's actions; he would not turn traitor even to save his lifeAUTHOR: Words: Ethna Carberry (1866-1902) EARLIEST DATE: c.1798 (Zimmermann) KEYWORDS: Ireland rebellion death execution HISTORICAL REFERENCES: February 28, 1800 - Rody McCorley hanged in Toome. (source: Moylan citing John Moulden) FOUND IN: Ireland REFERENCES (5 citations): OLochlainn-More 100, "Rody MacCorley" (1 text, 1 tune) Zimmermann 17, "Rody Mac Corly" (1 text, 1 tune) Moylan 123, "Rody MacCorley" (1 text, 1 tune) Silber-FSWB, p. 324, "Roddy McCorley" (1 text) DT, RMCORLEY* RECORDINGS: The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem, "Roddy McCorley" (on IRClancyMakem02) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Rody McCorley" (subject) NOTES: The Fiddler's Companion site says "McCurley was a County Antrim rebel leader in the rising of 1798." The rebels [were] defeated at Antrim in June 1798. If any of [the details in the song "Rody McCorley are] accurate he might have been executed Good Friday, April 6, 1798 or, more likely, March 22, 1799. Zimmermann: "Rody McCorley was hanged c.1798." [But see Moylan's note.] A. T. Q. Stewart, The Summer Soldiers: The 1798 Rebellion in Antrim and Down, Blackstaff Press, 1995, p. 156, gives this account: "Of the Toome rebels are remembered at all, it is because of Roddy McCorley. A young Presbyterian from Duneane whose family had been evicted from their farm after the death of his father, he was in hiding for nearly a year after the rebellion before being betrayed, tried by court martial at Ballymena, and hanged 'near the Bridge of Toome' on Good Friday, 1799." In the footnote to this paragraph, Stewart adds, "Though hardly mentioned in Presbyterian annals, Roddy McCorley is a major figure in nationalist martyrology because he became the subject of a famous song." Guess which one. Moylan: .". by Ethna Carberry (Anna [Johnson] MacManus b. 1866), was written in the 1890s and may have been based on ["Rody McCorley"]. - BS According to Hoagland, 1000 Years of Irish Poetry, p. 775, the name was spelled "Carbery" (a spelling supported by Granger's Index to Poetry, though Robert Gogan, 130 Great Irish Ballads [third edition, Music Ireland, 2004], p. 112, has the spelling "Ethna Carbury"); her collected poems were published posthumously in The Four Winds of Erin. Granger's cites six of her poems; this, interestingly, is not among them. - RBW.. File: FSWB324 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2016 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. Here are the Digital Tradition lyrics: RODDY MCCORLEY (Words by Ethna Carberry; music traditional) O see the fleet-foot host of men, who march with faces drawn, From farmstead and from fishers' cot, along the banks of Ban; They come with vengeance in their eyes. Too late! Too late are they, For young Roddy McCorley goes to die on the bridge of Toome today. Oh Ireland, Mother Ireland, you love them still the best The fearless brave who fighting fall upon your hapless breast, But never a one of all your dead more bravely fell in fray, Than he who marches to his fate on the bridge of Toome today. Up the narrow street he stepped, so smiling, proud and young. About the hemp-rope on his neck, the golden ringlets clung; There's ne'er a tear in his blue eyes, fearless and brave are they, As young Roddy McCorley goes to die on the bridge of Toome today. When last this narrow street he trod, his shining pike in hand Behind him marched, in grim array, a earnest stalwart band. To Antrim town! To Antrim town, he led them to the fray, But young Roddy McCorley goes to die on the bridge of Toome today. The grey coat and its sash of green were brave and stainless then, A banner flashed beneath the sun over the marching men; The coat hath many a rent this noon, the sash is torn away, And Roddy McCorley goes to die on the bridge of Toome today. Oh, how his pike flashed in the sun! Then found a foeman's heart, Through furious fight, and heavy odds he bore a true man's part And many a red-coat bit the dust before his keen pike-play, But Roddy McCorley goes to die on the bridge of Toome today. There's never a one of all your dead more bravely died in fray Than he who marches to his fate in Toomebridge town today; True to the last! True to the last, he treads the upwards way, And young Roddy McCorley goes to die on the bridge of Toome today. Recorded by Kingston Trio, Clancys. Additional words from RG, overheard in the White Horse Tavern, NY in 1958 @Irish @rebel @death @war @death @war filename[ RMCORLEY TUNE FILE: RMCORLEY CLICK TO PLAY RG http://www.8notes.com/digital_tradition/gif_dtrad/ROCKYTOP.gif |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: MartinRyan Date: 15 Aug 06 - 06:02 AM Referring to the Etna Carbery poem/song, Joe (Offer) mentions in a recent thread now recycled to here, that "the tune is Sean South of Garryowen". This is true - but Roddy predates Sean! O'Lochlainn, in his More Irish Street Ballads book says that he doesn't know the origin of the "stirring march tune used" (or words to that effect. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Aug 06 - 02:33 PM Ooops I got caught. I misinterpreted Philippa's message above. Thanks for catching it, Martin. -Joe- |
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Subject: joe offer From: GUEST,l-man Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:24 PM Sorry Joe, but "Sean,South Of Garryowen" are only WORDS that use the same tune as Roddy McCorley. What is the name of the actual - no doubt traditional - melody? I cant' seem to find it on the Roddy McCorley links. |
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Subject: RE: joe offer From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:37 PM Hi, L-Man- Here (click) is the main discussion of the Roddy McCorley tune. Although the later song, "Sean, South Of Garryowen," uses the same tune, it appears that "Sean" got the tune from "Roddy McCorley" - rather than the other way around. As the thread says, the early source of the tune is unknown. Let's keep the discussion in that thread. I'm going to close this thread and move our messages to the existing thread. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Bob Bolton Date: 16 Aug 06 - 11:41 PM G'day all, I can't pick this up from my 'traced' threads, but I seem to remember a long discussion about many aspects of Roddy McCorley (and the song)... and somewhere it mentioned that the words were from late 19th century - but the tune was from (~) 1927. I would presume this was the product of post-rebellion fervour ... but I don't have the details - and it really is one for the Irish experts! Regards, Bob |
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Subject: Source citations From: JesseW Date: 17 Aug 06 - 01:05 AM Wolfgang gave various quotes without citing where they came from. Because I'm anal like that, I'm reposting them here with citations. ;-) "Roddy McCorley was a Presbyterian from Duneane. He took part in the Battle of Antrim and went into hiding after it. After a year in hiding he was betrayed, tried in Ballymena and hanged in Toome on Good Friday 1799. There is another song on the same subject, written by Ethna Carbery in the 1890s. This song is an older ballad, probably composed in or soon after 1799." * http://www.iol.ie/~terrym/1798.htm#track12 - What seem to be official liner notes for "The Croppy's Complaint - Music & Songs of 1798 / Craft Recordings - CRCD03" "Ethna Carbery was the penname of Anna MacManus, née Johnston, who was born in Ballymena, County Antrim in 1866. She and Alice Milligan founded the paper called The Northern Patriot and afterwards another called The Shan Van Vocht. She was married to the Donegal writer and folkorist, Séumas MacManus, and died in 1902." * http://www.scotsindependent.org/features/singasang/rody_maccorley.htm and http://www.iol.ie/~fagann/1798/songs7.htm (both used as bios for the author, presumably copied from each other); the scotsindependent one has a link to a MIDI file. Someone really should go and turn that into a tune recording on the DT...) ""After the defeat of the United Irishmen many were unable to return to their former lives and instead became brigands. The most notorious gang in Antrim was led by a man named Thomas Archer. Initially Archer's gang were popular outlaws, exacting revenge on loyalists in the district but, as time passed, their actions became less political and more criminal. During early 1800 the members of the gang were systematically brought to justice and executed. Roddy McCorley was hanged at Toome on 28 February." * http://www.deochandorais.de/misc/98songs.htm (This bit seems to be written by the website author; but e provides a link to sources used, which we might find of interest...) Enjoy, and don't forget to cite your sources! |
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Subject: tune to roddy mccorley From: GUEST,l-man Date: 18 Aug 06 - 01:33 AM The tune to Roddy McCorley is "MacPherson's Lament." |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Aug 06 - 01:57 AM l-man, please try to post in an existing thread on your subject. It's not a good idea to start a new thread for every post. If the subject isn't on today's menu, use the filter to find old threads with that name - you can put "roddy" in the filter box and set the age back, and it fill pull up all the Roddy threads right away. The tune I know for MacPherson's Lament/Farewell is this one (click), although I think I've heard variations. The tune I know for "roddy" is this one, although again I admit that there could be others. I guess I do hear similarities in the two tunes, but they're certainly not the same. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 18 Aug 06 - 10:30 AM "MacPherson's Fareweel" is also known as "The Freebooter", and was supposedly composed by the man himself, and performed - by himself, no less - immediately before his execution in 1700. The earliest set of the melody I've seen is in the Key of F, tho' I think it tends to be played (on Fiddle, at least) in G or A; and there are many variations, both of melodic line and embellishments. In sowthing over this air, and those I learnt for "R.McC" and "S.S.", there certainly appear to be similarities. Unfortunately for the legend, altho a James MacPherson was hanged in 1700, there's no record of his having been a fiddler. Robert Burns nearly a century later made a song from the Broadside of MacPherson's Last Testament, giving a dramatic and defiant twist to things thoroughly in accord with the potential of the melody. In a related vein, if "Henry" from all of seven years ago is still around, I found your parallel between the two sets of "Rody McCorley" and the two sets of words called "The Croppy Boy" an appropriate one, though in my estimation the later set, "Good men and true in this house who dwell" (by "Carroll Malone"/Dr James McBurney, late 1830s) is far superior as a dramatic production, whatever may be said of the authenticity of "The Old Croppy Boy", beginning "It was early, early in the Spring" and surely from around 1798. However, to describe Malone's expression of patriotism as "Victorian English" can't be accurate, unless of course the "patriot" to whom you referred is the Yeoman Captain, snarling, "'Amen', say I, may all Traitors swing!" The melody chosen by "C.M", incidentally, is "Cailin Oge co Stuire me", the Young Girl from the River Suir, generally attributed to the blind harper T. O'Carolan (see recent thread) |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: bill kennedy Date: 18 Aug 06 - 10:39 AM If you don't have it I recommend you all get a copy of One Green Hill: Journeys Through Irish Songs by John McLaughlin. It tells the story of Rody McCorley and many other irish songs. well worth having. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Rapparee Date: 18 Aug 06 - 02:34 PM Thanks. "Roddy" has long been one of my fave raves (sorry!), and the info about "The Croppy Boy" is also enlightening. I was going to post about "McPherson's Lament" but Joe beat me to it. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: GUEST,weerover Date: 19 Aug 06 - 12:51 PM I'll second what Bill says about "One Green Hill", I'm sure Big Tim is too modest to mention it himself. An excellent read for anyone interested in the stories behind the songs. wr |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: GUEST,Gaeilgesinger Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:50 AM I have the Irish words for the first three verses from a printout I received in Irish language class. Credited as author is Micheál Ó Siochfhradha, brother of Pádraig (An Seabhac). I see it's from a book of song lyrics because it sits on page 27 facing Rosc Catha na Mumhan by Piaras Mac Gearailt on page 26. If anyone is familiar with this book as I have only the single page printout, please let me know so I can look into purchasing the whole. go raibh míle maith agaibh |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: GUEST,mjnear toomebridge Date: 09 Mar 07 - 06:20 AM i have come here by acccident, but find this very interesting reading.what i know of roddy he was church of ireland and whilst he fought or may not have fought in the battle of antrim, he was an opportunist and stole or plundered in shanes castle estate in antrim the english army wwere fooled many times by him and the head buck who's name escapes me took roddy's act as a personal insult, yes he was tried in ballymena, marched to toome where his gallows were built on the bann bank and from stones taken from shanes castle estate(or so it is told) the gallows was designed to swing over the water when roddy was dropped, he was then cut down taken to the then police station and drawn and quartered inside where his kin watched through a window, this remains were buried under the road where all traffic passing through toome woould go over him. many years later a relative of roddy's was empolyed to make a new road, a different route was to be taken, the remains were taken up and given a christian burial in duneane church of ireland, however the local loyalist people who believed roddy to be a catholic,irish rebel, desecrated the grave, so he was apparently moved again and, is still in duneane church of ireland ground unmarked. his traitors mc erlain and finnison were hated by the people about who sympathised with roddy. mc erlains remains i dont know where they are but finnison is buried in cranfield church ground which is now an ancient monument but still taking in residents, this i know because my parents are buried a few feet from finnison. i hope this helps it has been passed down word of mouth, and read as part of school history |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:08 AM Very interesting additional information: thanks to mj, near T. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Declan Date: 09 Mar 07 - 12:45 PM If Gaeilsinger is still around, the book you refer to is probably Abair Amhrán a book of songs first produced, I think in the late fifties or early sixties, for the use of Irish language enthusiasts. It contains contemporary translations into gaelic of a whole range of songs, some traditional and others popular songs of the day. Many mistakenly believe that the Gaelic versions are the originals and the english versions are the translations, but quite often this isn't the case. I used to have copies of this book and if I can locate them I'll confirm that this is the book and any information that it might contain aboujt the song, provenance etc, although this is usually very sparse. As for Sean South (Sabhath), this is a much newer song dating from an incident in 1956, so that song is sung to the Roddy air rather than the other way around. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Den Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:10 PM Shane MacGowan does a very stirring version of Roddy on one of his solo projects. Its always been one of my favourites. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: MartinRyan Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:31 PM Declan You're dead right about Abair Amhrán - just checked it. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: MartinRyan Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:32 PM First published 1962, BTW Regards |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Big Tim Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:36 PM Roddy is buried in Duneane Church of Ireland graveyard near Toome. I have visited it but the exact site in now unknown, vandalised into oblivion. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that he belonged to that Church, as Catholics were often then buried in various Protestant graveyards. Most serious historians, for example A.T.Q. Stewart, say that Roddy was a Presbyterian - but cite no historical documents in evidence. My own view is that the circumstantial evidence suggests that he was more likely to have been a Catholic. This is based on his surname, a Gaelic one, his mother's maiden name, also a Gaelic one, and the fact that it was a sermon by the local Catholic priest, Father Devlin, that swayed the local community into betraying his hideout to the Rasharkin yeomen (in 1800). Tho I do find his religion to be of interest, more interesting to me is what was his role in 1798, and afterwards, - was he a hero or a villain? If anyone has any evidence on this, please post it. Thank you Bill Kennedy and wr for the positive comments on my book 'One Green Hill:Journeys through Irish songs' - I believe that some copies may still be available from the publisher's website ! PS Much as I love Shane MacGowan, his version is the worst ever! |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: Den Date: 09 Mar 07 - 02:47 PM Just your oppinion though Tim. Probably holds as much water as my own. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: facts behind RODDY MCCORLEY From: GUEST,mj near toomebridge Date: 22 May 07 - 08:27 AM hi again i am here at present with a man well versed in his history and veery well versed in roddys history roddy was a catholic his father was caught skinning a sheep belonging to colonel bruce a bellaghy land lord and was transported to van diamens land where he died some years later roddys mother married a republican orrs a blacksmith by trade and was engaged in making pikes for 1798 ( i am going to be shown one of these pikes yes he has them) and this was how roddy became involved with the battle rumour had it among the country men that mc erlain was angry with roddy and helped in his capture because the young miss mc erlane was pregnant to roddy remember this was only a rumour and cant be proven we may get back soon and add more i hope you find this helpful and interesting |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: GUEST,JTT Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:50 AM Attempting to post here; maybe the forum doesn't like Tinyurls... Presbyterians were among the leaders of the 1798 Rising, especially in Antrim. For an on-the-spot account of that Rising, try this book by a Kildare Quaker. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: Big Tim Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:24 AM The problem with trying to get at the truth about Roddy is that few reliable historical records survive. I spoke to various people in an around Toome and also checked the local collection in Ballymena Library. Over the years lots of people have written little pieces on Roddy, most of unprovable, and this has then taken on a sort of historical veracity - 'somebody has written this and it's in Ballymena Library, so it must be true'. But not necessarily. Two of the more persistent stories concern the Ballaghy link and the transportation of Roddy's father. These traditions are so strong that I feel there must be something to them. Then of course there is the older Roddy ballad which touches on many of these aspects. The ballad writer COULD have made it all up but I feel that there is so much detail in the song that at least some of it is probably true. Again tho, I think that the main question concerns his part in the 1798 Rebellion. He was definitely hanged for robbery and murder in 1800 but what did he actually do in '98 to gain such a heroic reputation? Anyone know? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: trevek Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:39 PM Whether Roddy's name is Gaelic is not necessarily to say he was Catholic. Don't forget many Ulstr Protestants wer of Scottish stock. Wolfe Tone was Protestant, as was Henry Joy McCracken (I believe). Shane McGowan's version of the song is a joke. For someone who knows so much about Irish history and culture (as he claims)moved McCorley's death from County Antrim to County Galway "on the bridge of Tuam today". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: Big Tim Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:52 PM Of course Tuam and Toome have the same Irish Gaelic derivation! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: trevek Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:57 PM Perhaps, but today they have a different spelling! Wikipedia's take on RM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roddy_McCorley |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: GUEST,JTT Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM Catholic Schmatholic, Gaelic Schmaelic, Scottish, umm, Schottishe. Irish and Planter were mixed, whether officially or unofficially, in many families. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: Big Tim Date: 15 Jun 08 - 01:00 PM Yes, Henry Joy was a Protestant, as were most of the United Irishmen in the north. McCorley and McErlane (Roddy's mother's maiden name) are Irish names, not Scottish. In Toome, I was assured that McCorley is a VERY Catholic name. Obviously this does not guarantee that R was a Catholic but it seems more probably. The older Roddy ballad says Roddy was a Defender, an almost exclusively Catholic organisation. Very few Catholics rebelled in the north but Defenders did take part in the Battle of Antrim. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: ard mhacha Date: 15 Jun 08 - 02:08 PM The important point is Catholics/Nationalists in the north of Ireland couldn`t care less about his religion, in fact I have never heard it mentioned. McCracken, Tone, Samuel Orr and all of the other freedom fighters were held in such high esteem by the Nationalists that even to-day GAA teams and Nationalists clubs bear the names of those Protestant heroes. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: Reiver 2 Date: 15 Jun 08 - 02:43 PM "Roddy McCorley" was a favorite song of The Reivers and is a very stirring tune. I've not tried to research it, and can only relate what we heard about it from a variety of sources. We understood that Roddy was involved in the '98 Rising, that he was a protestant and that many of that persuasion were involved, especially in Antrim, in that Rising. I always understood that "Sean South of Garryowen" was sung to the tune of "Roddy McCorley" and not the other way around. Does anyone know for sure which came first? We also were informed that Roddy was not hanged from a gallows, as some in this thread suggest, but that the method used was to fasten a rope to the bridge, secure it around his neck and push him off. In the song he's a very heroic figure, and the information in the thread to the contrary, while interesting and probably true, sort of spoils the effect. Another of many "heroes" who turn out to have had feet of clay? Reiver 2 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: Reiver 2 Date: 15 Jun 08 - 02:46 PM I forgot to add that the song as we sang it bore no relation or resemblance to MacPherson's Lament (Rant or Farewell). It would appear that the only thing they have in common is that the subject of both songs died by hanging. Reiver 2 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: Big Tim Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:08 AM Roddy was written in 1904. Sean South was born in 1928. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: ard mhacha Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:40 AM Right Tim, I was almost there at its birth. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: trevek Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:55 AM which one, ard? Roddy or sean? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley' From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:02 AM From: GUEST,mj near toomebridge Date: 22 May 07 - 08:27 AM hi again i am here at present with a man well versed in his history and veery well versed in roddys history roddy was a catholic his father was caught skinning a sheep belonging to colonel bruce a bellaghy land lord and was transported to van diamens land where he died some years later roddys mother married a republican orrs a blacksmith by trade and was engaged in making pikes for 1798 ( i am going to be shown one of these pikes yes he has them) and this was how roddy became involved with the battle rumour had it among the country men that {mc erlain was angry with roddy and helped in his capture} because the young miss mc erlane was pregnant to roddy remember this was only a rumour and cant be proven From: Big Tim Date: 15 Jun 08 - 01:00 PM Yes, Henry Joy was a Protestant, as were most of the United Irishmen in the north. McCorley and {McErlane (Roddy's mother's maiden name)} are Irish names, not Scottish. Assuming that mj(Roddy's betrayer) and Big Tim(Roddy's mothers maiden name) are both correct, is it possible that Roddy was betrayed by a kinsman. |
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