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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,SteveG Date: 20 Sep 11 - 05:37 PM An interesting possibility. Everyone has assumed because of the palmer's supernatural powers he is either God or Jesus in disguise, but the beliefs of the period might well have endowed supernatural powers of second sight and issuing penances to a palmer. However if Child was right the ballad is a translation of a continental ballad and therefore we should look to the continental versions to tell us who he was. |
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Subject: ADD: When Jesus Met the Woman at the Well From: Joe Offer Date: 19 May 17 - 03:25 AM WHEN JESUS MET THE WOMAN AT THE WELL When Jesus met the woman at the well, Oh she went running to tell, She said come to see a man at the well, He told me everything that I done. She cried oh, oh, he must be a prophet, She cried oh, oh, he must be a prophet, She cried oh, oh, he must be a prophet, He told me everything that I done. He said woman where is your husband? She said that I don't have one. He said woman you done had five, And the one you got now ain't yours. She cried oh, oh, you must be a prophet, She cried oh, oh, you must be a prophet, Oh, oh, you must be a prophet, You told me everything that I done. Oh he told that Messiah was coming, Oh he told me everything that I done. Oh he told that Messiah was coming, Oh he told me everything that I done. She cried oh, oh, etc. Notes: The Gospel According to St. John, Chapter 4, tells that Jesus came to a well in Samaria, and engaged in conversation with a woman drawing water there. He spoke to her about the water of everlasting life which he had to offer, and she asked whether she might have some. "Jesus saith unto her, Go call thy husband and come hither. The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou has well said, I have no husband; for thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." This human, intimate exchange, and the woman's report to the village on the event, is recorded in the... song. Another version of this song stresses a slightly different point in its choral stanza, and mentions that the people of the village, in response to the woman's report, came to see the man at the well: Oh listen, don't you hear what he say? Oh listen, don't you hear what he say? Oh listen, don't you hear what he say? He say the truth is the light, and I am the way. When the people of that city Came and saw Jesus settin' at the well, He say I can give water free That'll save you from a burnin' hell. Source: Negro Folk Music U.S.A., by Harold Courlander (1963, Columbia University Press), pp 59-60 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Joe Offer Date: 19 May 17 - 03:27 AM Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on this song. Apparently, we don't have lyrics for this song in the Digital Tradition. Jesus Met the Woman at the WellDESCRIPTION: Jesus meets a (Samaritan) woman as she comes to draw water, and tells her "everything [she] has ever done." She proclaims him a prophet, and announces the news in the townAUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1947 (recorded by the Selah Jubilee Quartet) KEYWORDS: Bible religious Jesus FOUND IN: US REFERENCES (2 citations): Courlander-NFM, pp. 59-60, "(Jesus Met the Woman at the Well)" (1 text plus a fragment); p. 252, "Jesus Met the Woman at the Well" (1 tune, partial text) ADDITIONAL: Harold Courlander, _A Treasury of Afro-American Folklore_, Crown Publishers, 1976, p. 325, "(no title)" (1 text); pp. 348-349, "(When Jesus Met the Woman at the Well" (1 text, 1 tune) Roud #21781 RECORDINGS: Pilgrim Travelers, "Jesus Met the Woman at the Well" (Specialty 329, n.d.) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "The Maid and the Palmer" [Child 21] (subject) cf. "See the Woman at the Well" (subject) cf. "Lift Him Up That's All" (subject) NOTES [11 words]: For the story of Jesus and the Woman of Samaria, see John 4:5-26 - RBW Last updated in version 5.0 File: CNFM059 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2019 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: keberoxu Date: 26 Dec 19 - 07:50 PM While Comcast was wrestling with the Mudcat Forum, I was looking up the "woman at the well" song. This thread, I have to say, is as confusing as it is informative. There are a bunch of songs on this thread and some are clearly related, others are not so much. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Richard Mellish Date: 27 Dec 19 - 06:52 AM > some are clearly related, others are not so much. Insofar as each of them involves a conversation at a well, where the man (whoever he is) tells the woman (whoever she is) about her personal life, they all clearly derive from the same original story, so I would count them as cousins. However they are so different that any attempt to identify their exact relationships would involve a lot of missing links. BTW apropos Ruth Archer 05 Jan 09 - 04:55 AM saying "Completely OT": not at all. Jacob's Well (which is one of my favourites of the "Sheffield" carols) concerns the very same encounter, albeit with neither the personal revelations not the penances, so an entirely independent telling of the same biblical story. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: keberoxu Date: 06 Apr 20 - 07:40 PM The recorded version of the song that I first heard came from Peter Paul and Mary on their live-in-concert album. And here is a film clip of an actual live performance by same. Jesus Met the Woman at the Well |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 21 Feb 22 - 04:46 PM This thread interests me as it sheds light on the origins/affinities of "The Well Below The Valley" as recorded by Christy Moore and Planxty, originating from the singing of John Reilly as recorded by Tom Munnelly in the 1960s. Revisiting this topic a few days back, I came across the recording by Thomas Moran previously referenced in a parallel (now closed) thread "Origins: Well below the valley - discuss!" which has now been posted to youtube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhdiVbqhc4, and seems (as pointed out previously) to clearly be verses from "The Maid and the Palmer" interspersed with refrain lines from "The Cruel Mother". Anyway, I visited the Wikipedia page for the Maid and the Palmer and found that quite a lot could be added there, in respect of the Moran recording and also the reappearance of the c.1818 version entitled "The Maid of Coldingham" in two different publications within the past 30 years or so. Hopefully I have represented the info previously expressed here by relevant persons more well informed than I - see current version at Wikipedia: The Maid and the Palmer. Regards - Tony |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 21 Feb 22 - 07:34 PM We were singing this in 1968. Arlin Megliaso played guitar. It was an evangelical outreach. We were in the front lawn space, of the Griffith Park observatory, on a bitter cold December night |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: clueless don Date: 23 Feb 22 - 10:27 AM I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but I have a recording of this song (the maid and the palmer) on an album by a British group called "Brass Monkey" - or maybe that was the name of the album. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 23 Feb 22 - 10:52 PM Yes, Brass Monkey's version is based on the words given by Child with a few modifications of their own ... Martin Carthy and John Kirkpatrick (of Brass Monkey) had previously performed the same song/version with a late incarnation of Steeleye Span... More info at https://mainlynorfolk.info/steeleye.span/songs/themaidandthepalmer.html. BTW I have added a bit more info over the past couple of days regarding the history and content of the ballad to the Wikipedia page at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Maid_and_the_Palmer if anyone is interested... Regards - Tony |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 12 Apr 22 - 02:12 AM Well I added a bit more to this thread but I think it has been lost, so a quick precis below... It seems that John ("Jacko") Reilly's 2 performance(s) of "The Well Below The Valley" as recorded and notated by Tom Munnelly, D.K. Wilgus and reproduced in Bronson's "Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads" were not without precedent after all. In 1954, the song collector Seamus Ennis recorded singer Thomas Moran of Mohill, Co. Leitrim singing a partial version (6 verses only), which actually made it to a 1961 Caedmon LP under a different title, "The Cruel Mother" - Thomas sang what appears to be portions of the verses of "The Well Below..." interspersed with refrain lines from "The Cruel Mother", hence the confusion. Thomas sings: O your first little child with the golden locks All along and a-lonely-O And you've buried him under your own bed stock Down by the greenwood sidey-O You've buried three more on your way going home And you've buried three more on that butting stone Well you'll be seven long years a wolf in the woods And you'll be seven long years a fish in the floods You'll be seven long years a-ringing the bell And you'll be seven long years a-burning in hell Well I'd like very well to be a wolf in the woods And I'd like very well to be a fish in the floods I'd like very well to be a-ringing the bell But the Lord may save my soul from hell. Also, in 1955 a "full text" of the Well Below the Valley variant, with the opening verse: There was a rider passin' by / There was a rider passing by / He askhed a drink, as he was dry / At the well below the valley, oh! / My washing tub it is afloat / Green grows the valley, oh! by Pádraig Ó Móráin from Anna Ní Mháille, an old lady from Achill Island in County Mayo (text reproduced in Anne O'Connor, "Child Murderess and Dead Child Traditions", Helsinki, 1991) - I have not seen the full version, but several other verses are accessible via Google Books "snippet view". Again, in 1972 and 1973, Tom Munnelly recorded additional versions of the song from 2 other travellers, a Willie A. Reilly aged 35, and a Martin Reilly aged 73, from different localities; and the late contemporary Irish singer Liam Weldon also had a partial version, as learned from the singing of Mary Duke ("a traveller?") which he recorded on a 1976 Mulligan LP (you can hear this at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZZbbxhZVlM). Finally, another probable fragment was recorded recently, from Julia Power, a traveller, in 2015-2016, see The Well Down in the Valley (Child 21) (Fragment) - Julia Power. So quite a lot more extensive in Ireland than originally thought, apparently... Cheers - Tony |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 12 Apr 22 - 03:33 AM Apparently the version from Willie Reilly also discloses the palmer's true identity in this variant: (Stanza 5) 'Oh, for I am the Lord that rules on high; ' Green grows the lily-O ; 'Oh, I am the Lord that rules on high; ' In the well below the valley-O . (Stanza 6) 'Oh for if you're the Lord that rules on high ... Oh the Lord may save my soul from Hell.' This and some of the other information from McCabe, Mary Diane (1980). "A critical study of some traditional religious ballads." M.A. Thesis, University of Durham, 471 pp. Available at http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/7804/1/7804_4801.PDF |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Well Below the Valley/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 15 Apr 22 - 11:01 PM Joe has kindly reactivated this thread, so I will copy here some information posted to another, less exactly relevant one (copied from "Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer"): It seems that John ("Jacko") Reilly's 2 performance(s) of "The Well Below The Valley" as recorded and notated by Tom Munnelly, D.K. Wilgus and reproduced in Bronson's "Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads" were not without precedent after all. In 1954, the song collector Seamus Ennis recorded singer Thomas Moran of Mohill, Co. Leitrim singing a partial version (6 verses only), which actually made it to a 1961 Caedmon LP under a different title, "The Cruel Mother" - Thomas sang what appears to be portions of the verses of "The Well Below..." interspersed with refrain lines from "The Cruel Mother", hence the confusion. Thomas sings: O your first little child with the golden locks All along and a-lonely-O And you've buried him under your own bed stock Down by the greenwood sidey-O You've buried three more on your way going home And you've buried three more on that butting stone Well you'll be seven long years a wolf in the woods And you'll be seven long years a fish in the floods You'll be seven long years a-ringing the bell And you'll be seven long years a-burning in hell Well I'd like very well to be a wolf in the woods And I'd like very well to be a fish in the floods I'd like very well to be a-ringing the bell But the Lord may save my soul from hell. Also, in 1955 a "full text" of the Well Below the Valley variant, with the opening verse: There was a rider passin' by / There was a rider passing by / He askhed a drink, as he was dry / At the well below the valley, oh! / My washing tub it is afloat / Green grows the valley, oh! by Pádraig Ó Móráin from Anna Ní Mháille, an old lady from Achill Island in County Mayo (text reproduced in Anne O'Connor, "Child Murderess and Dead Child Traditions", Helsinki, 1991) - I have not seen the full version, but several other verses are accessible via Google Books "snippet view". Again, in 1972 and 1973, Tom Munnelly recorded additional versions of the song from 2 other travellers, a Willie A. Reilly aged 35, and a Martin Reilly aged 73, from different localities; and the late contemporary Irish singer Liam Weldon also had a partial version, as learned from the singing of Mary Duke ("a traveller?") which he recorded on a 1976 Mulligan LP (you can hear this at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZZbbxhZVlM). Finally, another probable fragment was recorded recently, from Julia Power, a traveller, in 2015-2016, see The Well Down in the Valley (Child 21) (Fragment) - Julia Power. So quite a lot more extensive in Ireland than originally thought, apparently... [follow on from the above] Apparently the version from Willie Reilly also discloses the palmer's true identity in this variant: (Stanza 5) 'Oh, for I am the Lord that rules on high; ' Green grows the lily-O ; 'Oh, I am the Lord that rules on high; ' In the well below the valley-O . (Stanza 6) 'Oh for if you're the Lord that rules on high ... Oh the Lord may save my soul from Hell.' This and some of the other information from McCabe, Mary Diane (1980). "A critical study of some traditional religious ballads." M.A. Thesis, University of Durham, 471 pp. Available at http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/7804/1/7804_4801.PDF |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Well Below the Valley/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 15 Apr 22 - 11:26 PM Here are the snippets I have been able to extract via Google Books from the 1955 Anna Ní Mháille version mentioned above, in Anne O'Connor, "Child Murderess and Dead Child Traditions" - not the whole text (it would be nice to see this!): There was a rider passin' by There was a rider passing by He askhed a drink, as he was dry At the well below the valley, oh! My washing tub it is afloat Green grows the valley, oh! If I give you a drink, I might fall in In the well below the valley, oh! (Says she)"My true love never was born" She swore by grass an' swore by corn That her true love never was born "How dar' you tell me such a lie An' you havin' six childer, by the by, At the well below the valley, oh! ... ... An' three more behind the hall door At the well below the valley, oh! "So's you're a man o' such a skill What's goin' to happen me? "You're going to be Seven years a nut in a wood Seven years a tongue in a bell ... ... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 15 Apr 22 - 11:28 PM This discussion now continued at Origins: Well Below the Valley/Maid & Palmer - thread kindly reactivated (and title modified) by Joe Offer. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Well Below the Valley/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 16 Apr 22 - 03:04 AM Of course the Thomas Moran version per my post 2 messages up was reproduced and discussed earlier in this thread, although I was alerted to it separately, via some comments on a copy now posted to youtube... apologies for the duplication! - Tony |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Well Below the Valley/Maid & Palmer From: Steve Gardham Date: 16 Apr 22 - 10:42 AM Hi Tony Forgive me if I'm repeating myself but in my opinion there are at least 2 ways in which the text of 21 could be linked in with the chorus of 20. We know pretty conclusively that someone in Scotland in the late 18th century was deliberately mixing the 2 songs up. However this was not in the form shown above so I think this way unlikely. The second way is much more obvious and simple. The 2 songs cover the unusual subject of new-born baby murder. I can't off-hand think of any other old ballads that deal with this subject in English. Couple this with the well-known hybridising of songs by the traveller community, among others, and you have your reason. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Well Below the Valley/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 16 Apr 22 - 03:07 PM I don't disagree with you Steve, regarding the potential mechanisms of confusion. However it does seem to have happened in at least 2 different forms - one with just the "penances" being attached to what is to happen to the protagonist in a song that is otherwise clearly Child 20, as noted by Child and expanded upon by Mary Diane McCabe, who pointed out over 30 such examples from Scotland, Ireland (? - via expatriates) and Canada; the other being a mixture of the refrain of Child 20 along with (some of) the text of Child 21, as per the (presently unique) Thomas Moran version, a different kettle of fish it seems to me... A separate question is from where the Irish "song" - I think we can call it now that as opposed to just a "version" of Child 21 - known as the Well Below The Valley derives. To my eyes it seems to have more in common with the continental variants or precursors of the "Magdalen Ballad" than with any Scottish versions that have come down to us, or the Percy Text which was the main source for Child - Tom Munnelly states (whether or not one can take this at face value) that John Reilly was aware that the song was a Magdalen legend, and in another version the stranger is revealed to be Christ as mentioned above. Just some rumination on my part, but interesting that John Reilly's documented performances turn out not to be the outliers originally thought! - Tony |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Well Below the Valley/Maid & Palmer From: Steve Gardham Date: 16 Apr 22 - 05:42 PM This should become clearer with a full detailed study of all the Irish versions. One also can't dismiss the well documented sexual connotations of 'well below the valley' though one could hardly think this was deliberate. If it derives from anything I would say it comes closest to the Percy version and I repeat what I have suggested before, the idea of such a ballad surviving for 3 centuries with no intervening appearance is highly unlikely but not impossible. The Scottish 20 additions could easily have come direct from Percy as plenty of Scottish antiquarians were corresponding with him. I do agree the evidence is beginning to show that it is unlikely the Irish version came from Scotland. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Tony Rees Date: 01 May 22 - 02:18 AM Date: 21 Mar 22 - 12:56 AM Just revisiting this topic after a few weeks, and re-reading chapter 10 of Mary Diane McCabe's 1980 M.A. thesis entitled "A critical study of some traditional religious ballads", available at http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/7804/1/7804_4801.PDF , which deals with this ballad... She notes receiving 2 additional tape copies supplied to her as recorded by Tom Munnelly in 1972 and 1973, again from travellers (also named Reilly...), this time in Co. Monaghan and Co. Sligo (McCabe's text versions E and F), the first from Willie A. Reilly (age 35 in 1972) and the second from Martin Reilly, age 73 in 1973, and includes a brief description of their content. She also points to a 1976 recording by the Irish singer and songwriter Liam Weldon who had a fragmentary but different version, stated as being learned from the singing of Mary Duke, also a traveller; this version can be heard on youtube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZZbbxhZVlM. All new information, to me at least!
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Tony Rees Date: 01 May 22 - 02:19 AM Date: 21 Mar 22 - 01:03 AM RE the above: "2 additional tape copies" - i.e. 2 new/different different versions of the song, collected from informants other than John Reilly. Presumably as now held in the Munnelly archive, although I do not know relevant access details...
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Tony Rees Date: 01 May 22 - 02:20 AM Date: 21 Mar 22 - 02:53 AM OK, a bit more detail from the McCabe work - to avoid having to trawl through it (the information is a bit scattered therein)... McCabe calls The Percy version A (=Child 21A), the Walter Scott fragment B (=Child 21B), the Glenbuchat version a.k.a. the Maid of Coldingham C, the John Reilly version(s) D, then Willie Reilly is E, Martin Reilly is F, and Liam Weldon (ex Mary Duke) is G. G is available on youtube via a link given above, as are 2 variants of D. Unfortunately no transcriptions are given for E and F, although their content is briefly described as follows, using a "shorthand notation" to indicated which verses are present (for the full explanation you will need to read the thesis: [D: The John Reilly (now well known) version/s] E: Reilly (Willie), 3 May 1972, Near Clones, Co. Monaghan, Eire. Recorded by Tom Munnelly from the singing of Willie A. Reilly, a traveller, aged 35, camped on the Rosslea Road, outside Clones. Mr. Munnelly sent me a copy of the tape (50/a/5) on 12 April 1978. 7 stanzas, probably bowdlerised since the version was sung reluctantly; b, c-D-E-F-M l - R - p2, p3 (with internal refrain). F: Reilly (Martin), 11 December 1973, Sligo, Co. Sligo, Eire. Recorded by Tom Munnelly from the singing of Martin Reilly, a traveller, aged 73, of Rathbroughan, Sligo; the informant had not sung the song for some years and needed some prompting; Mr. Munnelly sent me a copy of the tape (275/2) on 12 April 1978; in a letter dated 4/5/1978, Mr. Munnelly writes that the singers of M.P. [Maid and Palmer] texts D, E, and F may be related, but only distantly. 12 stanzas, b, c - D - E - G - H - j3 , j 4 - K L4 - nl , p3 - Q3 - Q3* - T (with internal refrain). G: Liam Weldon / Mary Duke, collection date / place not given. Sung by Liam Weldon, as learned from the singing of Mary Duke (a traveller?). 7 stanzas, confused , A - B - C - D* - N l - P8 - r * (with internal refrain) . There are a few stanzas quoted in passing from E and F, the "missing" ones in this context, as per the following snippets: {quotes} Recently another version of the Magdalen ballad, known as The Well below the Valley, has been recovered from the singing of Irish itinerants. These variants (D - G), whilst related to the Glenbuchat version, C, are more closely related in words and refrain to those versions of The Cruel Mother (Child 20) which end with seven-year penances. Textual study makes it plain that the Irish songs are variants of the same ballad version; moreover, the tunes of variants E - G are very similar ... It is probable, therefore, that the Irish version, recovered from the counties of Roscommon, Monaghan and Sligo, crossed from Scotland by way of Ulster. John Reilley's family travelled extensively in Ulster during his childhood ... The Irish variants E - G have an interlaced refrain at the second and fourth lines of each stanza: Green grows the lily-0 ... In the well below the valley-0 . Some additional lines are given as follows: 'My cup it is an overflow And if I do stoop I may fall in. ' D.b. stanza 2 and cf . F stanza 2. 'For if my cup was flow an' flow , I would give him a drink if he was dry. ' E stanza 2 The conditional form of the last quoted stanza has been misunderstood in G, where the woman replies (sta . 4.1) , "Come in, Sir , and drink your fill. " Although version D alone contain s Christ' s revelation of the Magdalen's incestuous unions , the older versions , like Irish variants E - G, may have suppressed the incest stanzas. The burial places in Martin Reilly's version (F sta . 8) are by the kitchen door and the stable door: this has led to the confusion in F, stanza 6; whereby the fathers of the children are the kitchen boy and the stable boy. In Irish version E, which is , however, a confused version reluctantly given, Christ Himself discloses His true identity : 'Oh, for I am the Lord that rules on high; ' Green grows the lily-0 ; 'Oh, I am the Lord that rules on high; ' In the well below the valley-0 . E sta . 5 also: 'Oh for if you're the Lord that rules on high ... Oh the Lord may save my soul from Hell.' E sta . 6.
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Steve Gardham Date: 01 May 22 - 02:21 AM Date: 21 Mar 22 - 09:35 AM Hi Tony This is all very interesting. I must admit to having some skepticism initially regarding John Reilly's well-known version of such a rare ballad. I'm very pleased someone is studying this currently and summarising what is available. That the ballad must have been extant in Scotland during the 18th century, whether in literary circles or oral tradition, must have been, as some literary hand decided to tag on the penance verses to the Cruel Mother, not found in purely English versions or the presumed original. It does seem possible that some of the ballad writers in Scotland (Scott for instance or Jamieson or Lord Hailes) would have had access to the Percy Manuscripts. They were certainly in touch with Percy. I would be interested in your opinions once you have completed your study. Please pm me if you don't want to air your thoughts here.
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Tony Rees Date: 01 May 22 - 02:21 AM Date: 21 Mar 22 - 02:17 PM Hi Steve, thanks for the comments. "Completed my study"... Well each time I write something, I think it is complete, until I get an idea to go back and look into some aspect a little further, often roads I may have travelled already but not appreciated everything that I was reading! You asked for my opinion - RE "some literary hand decided to tag on the penance verses to the Cruel Mother, not found in purely English versions or the presumed original" - my feeling from reading around (and that is all it is) is that the "creep" of penances from Child 21 (Maid & Palmer) into Child 20 (Cruel Mother) is more likely to have happened in oral rather than written tradition - a singer who knew all or portions of both ballads getting them a bit mixed up on one or more occasions, and so the new combination begins to circulate - in Scotland, Ireland, Canada and the USA, with 32 instances as documented by McCabe in her 1980 thesis, labelled therein C.M. [Cruel Mother] 1 through 32. "the ballad must have been extant in Scotland during the 18th century"... well, the Glenbuchat version - as well as Child 21B, the Walter Scott fragment, clearly the same song - clearly attests to that; and my thought would be that this is sufficiently different from the Percy text not to be a direct derivative, but that they both come from something older. As I point out in the [current version of] the Wikipedia article for "The Maid and the Palmer", "the [original] song has been thought to originate in Catalonia, from where it spread to France, Italy and among Slavic peoples". McCabe is of the opinion that "transmission from Britain to Scandinavia, or vice versa, had clearly taken place by the late Middle Ages, though fresh contact at a later date must not be ruled out". She dates the initial English-language version to the late medieval period, and points out a few elements in the Percy text that are probably later additions, so it makes sense to me that the other versions recovered later might well have survived as an alternative stream to the Percy text. So to summarise, I see the Percy version as more of a "fork" (albeit written down the earliest), the Glenbuchat/Scott version as closer to the original and representing a song then still current in oral tradition in Scotland (from where it then disappeared), and being carried from there to Ireland (possibly Ulster) from which the Irish versions (now at least 5 if you count that by Thomas Moran) subsequently derived. Interestingly, the "creep" of penances into the "Cruel Mother" variants seems to have happened more in Scotland and North America than Ireland, and possibly originate with a Scottish version or versions, in which the "Cruel Mother" persisted but the "Maid and Palmer" was generally forgotten. Just my take on things as above, not really an academic one but trying to make the best sense of available material. Happy to discuss further of course! Regards - Tony
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Steve Gardham Date: 01 May 22 - 02:22 AM Date: 21 Mar 22 - 03:59 PM I am assuming from this that you are not part of the school that thinks many of the Scottish ballads were redacted by (if not written by) sophisticated hands in the 18th century and early 19th. What evidence we have shows that some of them definitely were. We have here a spectrum of thought that ranges from only a few were (Scott/Buchan/Jamieson) to many more were and all of the antiquarians and friends were dabbling. I tend to be of the latter school, but the fact is we will never know the whole truth. Last time I did a study of the Scottish versions of Cruel Mother I came to the conclusion that those with the appended penance stanzas all stem from one single redaction, and that all of the versions spread abroad from this to Ireland/N America etc. But this study was some years ago and I'm not familiar with McCabe's study, not being an academic also. Is the McCabe study online? As for 'late Middle Ages' in English ballad form...highly unlikely in my opinion. The Percy text need not be any older than c1600. The story, yes, but not in this form.
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Tony Rees Date: 01 May 22 - 02:23 AM Date: 21 Mar 22 - 05:57 PM Hi Steve, I must confess that my present opinions are at least partly influenced by the suggestions in McCabe - read for yourself and form your own opinions, perhaps! Available online here: http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/7804/1/7804_4801.PDF Relevant pages are chapter 10 (p.244 onwards) and a portion of Appendix F (pp. 389 onwards). Pp. 611 onwards in the Finnish Folklore Atlas (available online at https://moam.info/finnish-folklore-atlas_5a1c3ba41723dd7c327408e3.html) also deal in more detail with the non-English versions of this ballad... Regards - Tony
Date: 22 Mar 22 - 02:59 AM I may as well throw this in: another version of "Well Below The Valley" was apparently collected in Ireland in 1955! Unfortunately I do not have access to the text, just to the notes introducing it, thus: From p. 1335 of "The Field Day Anthology of Irish Writing, Volume 4": "For a discussion of this ballad [i.e., The Well Below the Valley] in Ireland and another full text collected in Achill Island, County Mayo, from Anna Ní Mháille, aged 86, see Anne O'Connor, "Child Murderess and Dead Child Traditions" (Helsinki: Academia Scientiarium Fennica, 1991), pp. 85, 119-20." From Anne O'Connor, "Child Murderess and Dead Child Traditions" (Helsinki: Academia Scientiarium Fennica, 1991), in snippet view: (https://books.google.com.au/books?redir_esc=y&id=ThjXAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=well+below+the+valley): p. 120: "The following full version of Child 21 from Co. Mayo collected on 9.5.1955 by Pádraig Ó Móráin from Anna Ní Mháille (pensioner, 86 years), of Achill is in fact the earliest recorded version since Child, antedating the Roscommon version collected by Tom Munnelly in 1969 (cf. Bronson, 1972, 457-459)." [text not visible in this snippet view] If anyone can access that full text, might be very interesting... Regards - Tony
Date: 22 Mar 22 - 04:23 AM I managed to retrieve a few lines of Anna Ní Mháille's 1955 text via snippet view: There was a rider passin' by There was a rider passing by He askhed a drink, as he was dry At the well below the valley, oh! My washing tub it is afloat Green grows the valley, oh! ... ... If I give you a drink, I might fall in In the well below the valley, oh! (Says she)"My true love never was born" She swore by grass an' swore by corn That her true love never was born "How dar' you tell me such a lie An' you havin' six childer, by the by, At the well below the valley, oh! ... ... (the original can be purchased on Amazon, see https://www.amazon.com/Child-Murderess-Dead-Traditions-communications/dp/9514106520, however it would be neat if someone already has a copy they can consult :) Just a quick calculation - if Anna was 83 in 1955, she would be (say) 10 in 1872 ... so it is at least conceivable that (say) her grandmother might have been alive then, born maybe 1802, so potentially a direct link to the early years of the 1800s when the song was known to be alive in oral tradition in Scotland... just speculative of course, but it shows that what appears at first sight to be a big chronological gap can potentially be traversed without too many generations! Regards - Tony
Date: 22 Mar 22 - 04:26 AM I think I mean 1882 not 1872 in the post above, but the concept still stands :)
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Steve Gardham Date: 01 May 22 - 02:26 AM Date: 22 Mar 22 - 06:33 PM Thanks for that link, Tony. I have read it through and my own studies throw up a lot in common with her conclusions. Some wonderful detail, and all this only got a Masters? I've seen Doctorates with less substance. There is still a lot of missing information as with most studies like this. It should hopefully provoke further study. It would be useful for instance to have all of the Irish versions together and analyse what they collectively contain. They are almost a pastiche of earlier versions and smack to me as having been made by some hedge poet with a rough memory of an earlier version. She dates A to c1600 as do I and as part of the scribal tradition may have been copied and recopied for some time but that doesn't take it back in that ballad form to the medieval period, which she suggests.
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Tony Rees Date: 01 May 22 - 02:27 AM Date: 23 Mar 22 - 06:40 PM Steve Gardham wrote: >It would be useful for instance to have all of the Irish versions together and analyse what they collectively contain. Agreed! Now all we need is a young and enthusiastic volunteer (hint, hint?) - Tony
Date: 24 Mar 22 - 01:42 AM RE putative precursors to the Percy MS version of "The Maid and the Palmer" (therein: "Lillumwham"): these are discussed further in Joseph C. Harris, "'Maiden in the Mor Lay' and the medieval Magdalene tradition", Journal of Medieval and Renaissance Studies, 1 (1971): 59-87, available at https://www.academia.edu/11379372/Maiden_in_the_mor_lay_and_the_medieval_Magdalene_tradition Harris (p. 63-4) gives a speculative account of the evolution formation of the Magdalene ballad over time: "Form I ... tells how Mary Magdalene in her sin and vainglory was touched by the preaching of Jesus; she confessed to him and was given a penance of seven years in the wilderness. ... Form II (a hypothetical reconstruction) was born in Catalonia from a crossing of Form I with the Catalan ballad of the Samaritan woman ... the result being that Mary Magdalene met Jesus at a well but did not at first recognize him for what he was; he asked for water and surprised the woman with the knowledge of her sins; Mary Magdalene confessed, and the remainder of the ballad resembled Form I with penance, questioning, and salvation. Having spread to Scandinavia, Form II was combined with motifs from "The Cruel Mother" (Child no. 20) to produce Form III: he asks for a drink and accuses her of sin; he then lists her adulteries and child murders (the new trait), and the ballad continues as in II and I." Then later (p. 69): "A comparison of the eccentric and poorly preserved English versions of the ballad of the penance of Mary Magdalene, "The Maid and the Palmer" (Child no. 21) with the Continental versions indicates that the ballad came to Great Britain from Scandinavia rather than directly from France." ... "there is every reason to believe that full versions like those on the Continent also existed in medieval England [my interpretation: pre-1500]". Now you may or may not accept Harris' logic and/or conclusions, but here at least is his opinion regarding the age and evolution of the ballad. Just sayin'... Regards - Tony
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Steve Gardham Date: 01 May 22 - 02:27 AM Date: 24 Mar 22 - 03:24 PM >>>>>Having spread to Scandinavia, Form II was combined with motifs from "The Cruel Mother" (Child no. 20) to produce Form III: he asks for a drink and accuses her of sin; he then lists her adulteries and child murders (the new trait), and the ballad continues as in II and I."<<<<< Oh dear!!! My own conclusion was that Lillumwham had come from Scandinavia, but where does Harris get Scandinavian versions of CM? CM is solely an English ballad in origin with no known equivalents elsewhere. A few versions deriving from Grundtvig's 1842 translation in Engelske og Skotske Folkeviser were found in northern Denmark, but that's it. The fact is that Child, when he wrote his CM headnotes, wasn't aware of the English broadside so all of the headnotes to 20 actually pertain to 21. It's a pity he didn't revise this once he got hold of the broadside. See my Dungbeetle articles on Musical Traditions.
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Tony Rees Date: 01 May 22 - 02:28 AM Date: 25 Mar 22 - 02:20 PM Thanks Steve, so maybe I will not add Joseph Harris' conclusions/speculations on the ballad's evolution to the "Maid and the Palmer" Wikipedia page!
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: GUEST,Steve Gardham Date: 01 May 22 - 02:29 AM Date: 28 Mar 22 - 04:54 PM McCabe also doesn't appear to have spotted Child's error in ascribing his notes for 21 to 20. Apart from that I go along with all she says.
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Joe Offer Date: 01 May 22 - 02:31 AM I restored this thread as best I could. Hope it's OK. I moved all the April messages into this thread, and that may be confusing. Work with me on this to straighten it out. The other thread is a Spam magnet, so we can't use it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 May 22 - 01:43 PM Well done, Joe! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 01 May 22 - 02:24 PM +1 from me... thanks as well. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 21 Apr 25 - 03:11 AM As noted by myself (as Wikipedia editor at the time) in the Wikipedia article, John Jacob Niles claimed to have noted a fragmentary version of Child 21, The Maid and the Palmer, in Kentucky in 1932, although some commentators are suspicious of some/many of Niles' claims to have unearthed ballads, or fragments of the same, that no-one else had found (in the U.S.). Be that as it may, here is Niles' comments and transcribed fragment: From "The Ballad Book of John Jacob Niles" Copyright© 1960, 1961 by John Jacob Niles The Maid and the Palmer (Child No. 21) Seven Years (Niles No. 15) These verses were recited, not sung, to me by a young member of the Holcolm family in Kingdom Come Valley — a girl about nine years old. Everyone else had either sung or told some tall tale, and the little girl felt she should make a contribution to the day. The result was a 3-stanza version of "The Maid and the Palmer." The child's grandmother said that the three verses had come from an uncle, whose name, unfortunately, I did not get. [later on same page] The date was July 7, 1932. Seven Years 1. "Seven years you shall atone, Derry leggo, derry don, Your body be a steppingstone, Derry leggo downie. 2. "For your sins be as the sea, Derry leggo, derry don, You did slew your babies three, Derry leggo downie." 3. "Though my sins be as the sea, Derry leggo, derry don, I make a stone for thee, Derry leggo downie." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 21 Apr 25 - 03:27 AM OK, the above fragment is pretty short, just a taste that Child 21 *may* have travelled to the U.S. - however there do not seem to be any other versions of it known from there. However, courtesy of a correspondent, I now have a copy of the full 1955 text as sung by Anna Ní Mháille (age 86) to the collector Pádraig Ó Móráin, as held in the National Folklore Collection at University College Dublin and transcribed by Anne O'Connor for her thesis and 1991 publication, which I will hopefully put up tomorrow. Note of course that this pre-dates by a number of years the more well known version(s) collected by Tom Munnelly from John Reilly of Co. Roscommon, that then became circulated prominently by Christy Moore and Planxty in the 1970s... which itself was 50+ years ago already (gasp!) Stay tuned, Tony |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 21 Apr 25 - 02:34 PM And here is the full text of Anna Ní Mháille's 1955 version, as reproduced by Anne O'Connor in her 1991 book (refer Wikipedia page on "The Maid and the Palmer" for full details). I am indebted to Steve Roud for supplying me with a photocopy from which I have typed this out. --------------------------- "There was a rider passin' by" ,collected by Pádraig Ó Móráin on 9 May 1955 in Co. Mayo from Anna Ní Mháille, an old lady (pensioner, 86 years) from Achill Island in County Mayo (text as reproduced in Anne O'Connor, "Child Murderess and Dead Child Traditions", Helsinki, 1991; some breaks added between stanzas for clarity) The Steve Roud Catalogue entry for this version is at https://archives.vwml.org/songs/RoudFS/S562485 [Title] There was a rider passin' by There was a rider passing by He askhed a drink, as he was dry At the well below the valley, oh! My washing tub it is afloat Green grows the valley, oh! If I give you a drink, I might fall in In the well below the valley, oh! (Says she)"My true love never was born" She swore by grass an' swore by corn That her true love never was born "How dar' you tell me such a lie An' you havin' six childer, by the by, At the well below the valley, oh!" "So's you're a man o' such a skill, Tell me the father o' them" "Your (father's) kitchen boy one o' them Your parlour boy another o' them Your father's kitchen boy one o' them Your parlour boy another o' them Your brother another o' them An' three more behind the hall door At the well below the valley, oh!" "So's you're a man o' such a skill, What's goin' to happen to me?" "You're going to be Seven years a nut in a wood Seven years a tongue in a bell Seven years a fish in a flood Seven years more burnin' in hell At the well below the valley, oh!" "I don't care to be a nut in a wood I don't care t be (a) fish in a flood I don't care to be a (tongue on a bell) At the well below the valley, oh! But the Lord may save my poor soul from Hell At the well below the valley, oh!" [The informant adds:] And it *was* God that was talking to her an' He saved her. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Tony Rees Date: 21 Apr 25 - 02:40 PM I have seen it stated somewhere (cannot off hand remember exactly where) that possibly the inclusion of the kitchen boy and the parlour boy as fathers to some of the children, may be the equivalents of "There was two o' them buried by the kitchen fire / ... /Two more o' them buried by the stable door" of the longer John Reilly version, in other words locations have become confused with persons, or the other way round. Just a thought. - Tony |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Lighter Date: 21 Apr 25 - 03:23 PM Very interesting, Tony. So has even a fragment of "The Maid and the Palmer" been collected in the United States? Maybe, maybe not. Whether Niles's fragment is real, or partially real, or not, or whether the ballad was ever sung traditionally in America by anyone ever is less interesting to me than its simple existence. Whatever its origin, it's part of, or a somewhat enigmatic footnote to, the song's history. Taken by itself without historical context, it's kind of creepy and inexplicable. It seems odd that if Niles had concocted it, he wouldn't also have concocted a tune. If authentic, the three little stanzas seem less like a "fragment" and more like somebody's attempt to reconstruct and refashion dimly recalled material. If, on the other hand, Niles himself is responsible, he certainly created a memorably weird little rhyme. It might not be out of place in a freshman poetry anthology, attributed to "author uncertain." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Apr 25 - 03:40 PM Hi Tony For what it's worth here is my conjecture to the spread of the ballad in these islands. Percy was corresponding regularly in the mid 18thc with the Scottish literati who were sending him material, some of it no doubt reworked (i.e., Edward) and it seems reasonable that he would in return send back some of his scarcer material, including our ballad here from the Folio Ms. A reworked version turns up 1818 in the Glenbuchat and a fragment sent to Scott. Ballad-broker David Laing may have had something to do with the dissemination as he did a lot of travelling about between remote communities like Glenbuchat. About the same time one of the literati decided to tag the penance verses onto Cruel Mother and this was taken to new heights later by known ballad redactor Peter Buchan. The story of the ballad would easily then pass from there into Ireland along with the bulk of the other Child ballads found in Ireland. I'm happy to moderate any of this conjecture if anyone can come up with evidence to dispute it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Apr 25 - 04:47 PM I had this one from an old lady in Yorkshire: A young lass to the river brink, Hey derry dando, An old man came to get a drink Leg-a-derry-dando. "Old man, old man, tell me plain, How I can be a maid again." "Seven years an ape in hell, Seven a clapper in a bell." Or maybe I dreamt it. Whaddami like? |
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