welsh

Subject: welsh
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:12 PM

The welsh are a nation who are renowned for their singing.
    when I look up the word welsh , here is the dictionary definition,to leave a racecourse without settling ones bets, an illusion to the bad faith of welshmen.
       If I was welsh I would be really pissed off.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:22 PM

I wonder where that meaning for "welsh" came from. I suppose it must come from the Welsh people being reputed not to settle their bets, but I'll bet there's a good folklore story behind it.

But anyhow, what to English people think of the Welsh? Are there anti-Welsh prejudices in England?

Here in California, people seem to think that the Welsh have a beautiful place to live in, but that they have impossible spelling.

-Joe Offer-
(no doubt, this thread will end up in the non-music section, but let's wait a while and see which direction it takes)

Subject: RE: welsh
From: *Laura*
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:30 PM

They have a nice accent.
Every time I have been to Wales it has rained.

These are the two things I note about the Welsh.

xLx

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Michael in Swansea
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:44 PM

The saying about welshing on a bet does piss us off.
I'm Welsh, from Swansea, South Wales and have more English relations through my sisters' marriages (I have 3 of them) than Welsh. In fact I know more Yorkshire people than Swansea people, Yorkshire and South Wales tend to have the same sense of humour.
Prejudice wise I would say there are more narrow minded knobheads in Wales than there are in England. "As long as we beat England nothing else matters" Pillocks!
Saw written on a pub wall in Greenock, Scotland:
The Scots provide the verse
The Irish provide the tune
The Welsh provide the voice
The English provide the audience

Dick, haven't seen for a while. Hopefully soon but not this weekend.

Mike

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,married to a dirty Welsh woman
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:46 PM

Taffy was a Welshman.
Taffy was a thief.
Taffy came to my house
To steal a leg of beef.
I went to Taffy's house.
Taffy was upstairs,
So I caught him by the left leg
And threw him down the stairs.


playground verse early 1960s South Wales..



.. well thats when my mrs learnt it..

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:48 PM

I think you are more likely to find anti-English feelings in Wales. Don't forget though that there are for example people living in Wales who rember being punished in school in thier native tongue, etc.

Also, in more recent times in certain areas, there has been bad feeling about wealthy people (typicaly English) buying holiday homes and pushing prices up beyond the reach of locals. This problem is not unique to Wales though, pats of England suffer this way to.

All that negativity over with. I think North (I've not lived in other parts) Wales is a lovely place to live, and overall very welcoming to "foreigners" like myself.

I think from English side, the most common tale I hear about the Welsh is walking into say a pub and the conversation suddenly changing to Welsh as soon as they walk in. I can't convince myself that (regularly) happens. The Welsh people I know who do speak Welsh as a first language in the home, with friends etc. switch to English if joined by someone like myself who doesn't speak Welsh.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:51 PM

Lots of "interesting" definitions in The Urban Dictionary including a good bit of sheep shagging!

Spaw

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:53 PM

I've also heard that "welshing" actually refers back to someone called Welch or Welsh - but can't remember where that came from. There were a couple of guys in the States who ... do you call it 'taking out a class action' or something? ... to stop the usage of 'welshing'. Can't remember what the result was.

My Gran was English, and I have tons of English friends so I don't want to get in a slagging match here ... but god preserve me from some of the idiots we get 'escaping to the country' down here in west Wales. Do nothing to improve Anglo-Welsh relations. And the media really do knock us about, or ignore us. I refer my learned friends to the earliest Folk Britannia threads. (which might be enough to qualify this thread for 'above the line'?)

sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:56 PM

Ah. From The Phrasefinder site:

From "Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins":
"welsh -- to anyone with Welsh blood in his or her veins, the old nursery rhyme 'Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief' is an outrage and a slander. There is no objection to the first statement: 'Taffy' is a generic name for Welshman, a corruption of 'David,' the patron saint of Wales. But we greatly resent the implied slander on an entire nation in the second line...Even worse is the verb 'to welsh,' meaning 'to renege on a bet,'...The term welsher became common in Britain during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries in the argot of race-track bettors. But from a reader came a comforting word for all Welshmen, one which gives a touch of logic to the use of the term: 'It was ENGLISH bookies who, having too many long shot winners against them, fled over the border to 'boondock' Wales to become the original welshers and escape irate bettors looking for their payoff.'

sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: pdq
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:00 PM

That is probably 'class action law suit".

In the US, I've always heard it as "Welch" as in "Welch on a bet". Welch is an Irish surname so the phrase can probably be traced to a person with that last name. Nothing to do with dissing people from Wales.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Epona
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:02 PM

Thanks Sian, that's pretty interesting stuff actually.

E

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:08 PM

Phil Tanner is a great Welsh singer. Anyone agree?

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:32 PM

We were in Boulogne last new year and the local bars and restaurents prided themselves on doing 'Welsh'. We never did find out what it was but wondered how a bar in Rhuddlan or Conwy would fare if they advertised they did 'French'...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:22 PM

Well Dave, it cant have been Welsh Rarebit, can it, not with that runny cheese, & the only bread being croissants or sticks...

Subject: RE: welsh
From: pdq
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:56 PM

Actually, I think it all goes back to misunderstanding about Welch's grape juice. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 03:57 AM

Phil Tanner was a GREAT SINGER.Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Mo the caller
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 04:03 AM

Doesn't it date from times when borders were less fixed and folk raided across them, cattle rustling. Both the Welsh and Scottish borders,both sides raiding (but it doesn't count when you do it cos they did it first).

The mountain sheep are sweeter
But the valley sheep are fatter
And so we think it meeter
That we should take the later.

I suppose you could call people who move into another area, changing it's character for the locals 'house rustlers'

Subject: RE: welsh
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 05:01 AM

Well Paul from Hull I hate to disabuse you, but in France there is a snack/dish called Croque Monsieur, which is a dead ringer for Welsh Rabbit, although it does have a slice of jambon hidden under the cheese.
Details here
Giok

Subject: RE: welsh
From: leeneia
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 02:01 PM

Looking up "Welsh" in the unabridged dictionary leads one on a merry chase. The word is derived from Anglo-Saxon, but the AS's had borrowed it from somewhere else, possibly Old High German. It is related to walnut, Walachia, and Walloon. Basically it means "foreign."

I knew about walnuts and Walloons, so I looked up Walachia. It is a province of Romania. "Walachia" is Slavic, from the OHG "wahl," and a wahl was "a speaker of a Romance language, orig. a Celt."

The Welsh call themselves Cymry and Wales is Cymru. Somebody else is going to have to tell me how to pronounce that. I know that the u is pronounced ee, but the y's have me baffled.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 02:09 PM

Cumree

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 05:08 PM

Sneaky, them Frenchies, Giok...hiding their Jambon like that...

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 05:24 PM

Guest, Married to a Welsh woman:
"taffy was a Welsh man
taffy was a theif..
taffy came to my house
to steal a leg of beef
I went to taffys house
taffy was upstairs
so I cought him by the left leg
and threw him down the stairs...

playground verse early 1960s South Wales.."

As I recall it,
"Taffy was a Welsh man, Taffy was a thief.
Taffy came to my house and stole a lump of beef.
I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was in bed.
So I picked up a chopper, and chopped of his head."

Your last two lines seem to have crept in from "Goosey Goosey Gander".

The version I recall shows the over-the-top reaction of the English, who considered sheep stealing an offence worthy of the death penalty.

Hwyl Fawr
Nigel

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Fliss
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 05:36 PM

Looked up Welch on internet surname site...

Wallace, Wales or Welch, and formed thus--Gaulish, Wallish, Wallis, and also Welsh or Welch, a name given to the Britons by their Danish and Angles invaders, because they originally came from Gaul.

The welsh surname for the English is Sayce, - sais "English speaking". Which is similar to the scottish Sassenach.

fxx

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Michael in Swansea
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 06:57 PM

Nearly right Fliss SAIS is Welsh for English (language)
I know this bit should really be on the Hull thread but I heard Alan Hardy from Bitter End at last year's Hull say something I'd never heard before "Lloegr am byth" - "England for ever" in Welsh? How does that grab you? I know Sian has knows Alan and appreciates his sense of humour, but still, I told him straight "Oi Alan, that's not on, you can't say that" to which he gave a hearty chuckle. I made a point of telling my few Welsh friends and they found it rather chuckling to.
I love (mostly) everyone except terrorists of any religion.
Mike

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Les from Hull
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 08:03 PM

My mam's maiden name was Walsh, which is Irish for Welsh. So I'm quite international, aren't I, especially with my Norman-French surname of Ward.

Isn't there a term in American English for 'putting English' on a cue ball in pool, a sort of sneaky spinny sort of thing?

Subject: RE: welsh
From: pdq
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 08:39 PM

Putting "English" on a cue ball is not so much "sneaky" as it is difficult. It is usually used in a attempt to position the cue ball for the next shot, after it has sunk a ball,

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 09:10 AM

So I know Alan? Ummm. Not sure ...

Oh, and Sais (pl Saeson) is the person/people. Saesneg is the Language. Close.

There was a very funny Welsh song in the 1970s - Dw isio bod yn Sais (I wanna be an Englishman) - about a young lad's aspirations to be something he isn't - and wouln't want to be.

sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: leeneia
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 09:57 AM

"English" with respect to a ball means "spinning around a vertical axis." The British equivalent is "side." Other people speak of it as a billiards term, but I'm familiar with it in baseball. If the pitcher puts some English on a baseball, then it will be harder for the batter to hit it in the direction he wants.

English is also what makes a stone skip over the water.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Splott Man
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 04:04 AM

Here in south Wales we call the northerners Gogs and they call us Hwntws. Taffs are from the Valleys. Maybe Sian could expand on their precise meanings.

Splott man

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 04:19 AM

Well, I know that 'Gog' is someone from the North (Gogledd) and Taff refers to someone - I thought - from the Taff Valley or surrounds. So, Splott, you use it just for The Valleys? (Of course, there's also another Taff, or Taf, river just west of here which flows into Carmarthen Bay at Laugharne.)

'Hwntw' I don't know. 'Tu hwnt' means 'beyond' so it might be the Gogs referring to 'those down there'. Also, there might be a connection with the fact that Welsh speakers from the Tawe Valley (Swansea and above) have a habit of injecting 'w' to the end of sentences, much as in 'Canadian, eh?' or 'Murican, huh?'

Another category within the Welsh is the "Down Belows" - the people in Pembrokeshire who live 'below' the Lansker line, roughly the A40.

sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 04:23 AM

I've heard that the verb to welsh has nothing to do with the reputation of Welshmen, but derives from a former Prince of Wales who, being no gentleman, defaulted on his gambling debts.

Having said that, a slightly longer version of Taffy ran:

Taffy was a Welshman,
Taffy was a thief.
Taffy came to my house
And stole a lump of beef.
I went to Taffy's house,
Taffy wasn't in-
Taffy came to my house
And stole a rolling-pin.
I went to Taffy's house,
Taffy was in bed,
So I picked up the rolling pin
And bashed him on the head.

Welsh, from AS wealh, the same word for Briton (Celt) and slave. Which suggests something about how the Saxons made their living.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 04:38 AM

Sian,

Hwntw is given here as a slang term for a South Walian.

I can't say I was ever aware of a name for them in my time in North Wales. I'm not certain those in the North particulary wanted to refer to those in the South anyway. I always had a feeling there was quite a N/S divide in some ways.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 09:34 AM

I'd heard Valleys people referred to as Shunnies (presumably from Sion) in Cardiff. The local teds used to look forward to the "Shunny buses" coming in to town on a Saturday night for a bit of a rumble.

And many valley folk didn't like black people "because they do come from Cardiff"

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 09:47 AM

Out here in the west there's a bit of prejudice against the 'Jacks' from Swansea and the 'Turks' from Llanelli, while poor valley girls are the butt of all the jokes aimed elsewhere at blondes and Essex girls. The gogs are tolerated, but there's a feeling that they're too close to scousers to be wholly trustworthy!

But even within this small part of west Wales there are degrees of internal prejudice, with younger folk from non-Welsh-speaking homes taking the piss out of the rural "hambones" who do speak Welsh, which is a shame. The education system and the 'Cool Cymru phenomenon is doing its best, and the proportion of Welsh/Wenglish speakers is growing all the time, but there remains a certain type (mainly urban, it has to be said) who, although Welsh, regards speaking Welsh as a sign of backwardness and being 'stuck in the past'. The same sort of people, in fact, who seem intent on wrecking so many of the old buildings in these parts with wholly unsuitable 'modernisation'.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Splott Man
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 09:52 AM

A past colleague of mine used to refer to people from "sheep country" ie Powys as Iantos (pron. Yantoes), but that may have been of his own invention.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: pdq
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 09:56 AM

For a small area with about one million people Wales seems to be quite prolific. Here are the top dozen last names in the US:

1.        Smith                     1.01%
2.        Johnson               0.81
3.        Williams               0.70
4.        Jones                    0.62
5.        Brown                    0.62
6.        Davis                     0.48
7.        Miller                     0.42
8.        Wilson                  0.34
9.        Moore                    0.31
10.        Taylor                  0.31
11.        Anderson             0.31
12.        Thomas                0.31%

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 09:58 AM

"Here in south Wales we call the northerners Gogs and they call us Hwntws. Taffs are from the Valleys."

It may be purely a coincidence but in Albania the people of the mountainous north are called 'Ghegs' (or 'Gegs') whilst southerners are 'Tosks'.

Also in Albania, Northern Greece, Kosovo and Western Macedonia are a group of people called 'Vlachs' who speak a romance language similar to Romanian. I have been led to understand that 'Vlach' means 'stranger' (in Greek?) and is from the same linguistic root as 'Wales/Welsh'.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 11:43 AM

Ah well - if we're going down to town level, there are the Taffs (which in the west tends to mean Cardiffians), the Swansea Jacks, the Turks (Llanelli), St Peter's Boys (Carmarthen), Cardis (Cardigan, tho' most of all Cardiganshire really), Cofis (Caernarfon), Moch Mon (Anglesey Pigs, tho' again the whole county really) and probably a whole lot I don't know about! Can't remember the one for Haverfordwest, and I think there's one for Fishguard too.

Gervase, yeh - we get Hambones in Carmarthen too. And they tend to call the town lads "tras y dre" (town trash). Mostly friendly stuff in Carmarthen any more but I hear that it has been known to get a bit ugly in some smaller towns ...

I've heard some Cofis use Mongols and Tibetans for S and N Walians.

sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 11:48 AM

I'm not sure how you spell it Sian but you've missed out the "Bangor I's"...

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 01:08 PM

Careful what you say about the Cardis - just because we've got short arms and long pockets, there ain't no cause to poke fun!
As for a nickname for them from Pembrokeshire, 'English' would seem to fit. Every other house seems to be a sais holiday home.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 01:35 PM

As a definite outsider, but one who is interested in learning about different cultures, would the person referenced or others please answer these questions:

Sian, how is the 'w' pronouced that you said is used at the end of some sentences?

Paul, I'd never read or heard the rhyme "Taffy was a Welshman". I sense that this rhyme is a well know taunt in the UK. Is that so?Is calling a Welsh person "Taffy" as bad as called a Black person the "N" word or calling a person who is Asian or Middle Eastern or Black a "Macaca" {sorry, I'm only spelling the word out because some may not know what I mean if I said the "M" word}. I just learned about this word because of its recent public use two times by the Virgina {USA} Senator Allen.

In Gervases' comment "But even within this small part of west Wales there are degrees of internal prejudice, with younger folk from non-Welsh-speaking homes taking the piss out of the rural "hambones" who do speak Welsh, which is a shame", does the referent "hambone" come from the Black American handclap or patting juba {thigh and body patting} rhyme "Hambone'{hambone/hambone where you been/round the corner and back again etc}. Is this rhyme known in Wales?

And Snuffy, when you wrote: "And many valley folk didn't like black people "because they do come from Cardiff" what did you mean? Are the people from Cardiff darker in complexion than people from other regions of your country, or did you mean black people as I would mean it {people with some African descent?

Again, I'm just asking out of curiousity and a desire to know more about your cultures.

Thank you.


Azizi

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 01:40 PM

Azizi, we have to stop meeting like this ...

"W" would be "Oo" ... a bit as though you were imitating a chimp.

I'll let the others answer for their bits, but I might mention that Canadians of British extraction certainly seemed to know the Taffy rhyme.

sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 01:57 PM

I think it's probably not too derogatory to call a Welshman a 'Taff' or 'Taffy'. Many people would do that without knowing the rhyme. The same as we might call anyone from the USA a 'Yank', without referring to the Yankee Doodle rhyme, or people might call me a 'Tyke' (Yorkshireman). In fact the N word was once a simple state of fact (or opinion?) in Spanish before it gathered all the nasty connotations. Would people of Irish nationality or extraction object to being called a 'Paddy'.

The words on their own are quite harmless, it's the way they're said or meant that makes all the difference.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 02:14 PM

Wow, what a minefield! And to think that JudyB and I will be picking our way from one end of Wales to the other in just a few short weeks. Maybe, it's better if we spend ALL our time in Hay-on-Way sifting through the mouldy books.

We will be too itimidated to "ask" direction to anywhere but we are planning to bring along some chalk and a slate that we can poke out the window of our rental car, if we can figure which side of the car to poke it out...

Seriously, we'll be spending some of our time around Swansea swapping sea songs with the Baggywrinkle crew, October 7-8.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 02:32 PM

Thanks, Les.

I appreciate that information. However, with regard to your statement that:

"The words on their own are quite harmless, it's the way they're said or meant that makes all the difference".

In my opinion, it's not only a referent's literal meaning or the way the referent is said but it's also the referent's connotation that become an important part of its meaning.

Hence, my {and many other Black people and non-Black people's} problem with the "N" word}.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 02:40 PM

Oh and BTW, in case anyone wonders about the Bangor one, they say (I'll spell it as we would say in English) "aye" after everything.

Nice weather aye, have you been shopping aye? etc.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,Bill the sound
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:15 PM

diolch yn fawr, mae'n dda 'da fi rhedeg amdani

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:16 PM

"And many valley folk didn't like black people "because they do come from Cardiff" Let me try to explain:

As Britain never had a sizeable slave population, it was mostly in ports that coloured people began to congregate to form noticeable communities, initially of seafarers. Cardiff was a great seaport, exporting coal all over the world, and had one of the largest coloured populations in Britain. There was no love lost between the people of Cardiff and those of the coal mining Valleys. The joke above is that people from the valleys don't care a fig about your colour, but being a resident of Cardiff automatically makes you an "enemy".

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 12:03 AM

Thanks, Snuffy.

I appreciate your response. Having knowledge of history and putting things in context is important, isn't it?

****

Would Gervase or others who might know please help me understand if the reference to "hambones" above has anything to do with the song "Hambones"? Was that song known in Wales?

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 02:31 AM

Charley
I am close to Swansea and know some of the Baggywrinkles.
Might be able to pop in if I knew where you were (Pub in the Marina area maybe?)

Joe Offer
Have you ever been to Wales? (I remember meeting you in London).
Wales is very different to the South-East of England!

Btw I am English, but wife and the rest of the family are Welsh, and my young grandchildren are attending a Welsh-language school.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 03:31 AM

As far as I understand "Hambones" is more of an insult like "Knuckleheads", because ham bones are thick and solid and in the past would have found their way into soups to be sucked and slobbered over by the peasantry (though lamb/mutton is the traditional ingredient in the cawl round here). I did ask a neighbour this morning and he confessed to having no idea why it had stuck as an insult. He did have a word for those who used it, however - the very Anglo-Saxon "wankers"!

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 04:38 AM

The Galatians (of West-Central Turkey, to whom the Apostle Paul wrote a famous letter, his most radical) are another of these far-flung Celtic folk of yore.

Haruo

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 04:55 AM

Azizi, I think Gervase's neighbour is about the norm - very few people anywhere actually know where a saying originated. And I can't tell you categorically if it refers to the 'Hambone' song, which I know of from growing up in Canada. However, it's entirely possible that it WAS known, as there are quite a few songs in the Welsh (language) repertoire which have come from the States. More specifically, they were carried back and forth by people who emmigrated from here and, often enough, returned. Some people emmigrated and returned a few times; we forget that, by the 19th century, emmigration didn't necessarily mean you never saw home again. One of the all time favourite Welsh 'sing-along' songs is 'Moliannwn' (Let us Praise) which was brought back to Wales by Benjamin Thomas, a 'country poet', who worked from time to time in the quarries of Vermont, Upstate New York and Quebec, and he learned it from a Minstrel Show performance.

There was also a tremendous vogue for the Black and White Minstrel Shows here in Britain and there are Welsh songs which evolved from Welsh people attending these performances in large cities like Liverpool.

So, as I said, it isn't impossible that they new the 'Hambone' reference.

Re: Taff, I would agree with you, Azizi. There are layers of meaning when someone uses "Taff" or any other such label. My cousin Ifor (EEvore) lives in Leicestershire and is called Taff, which he prefers to having his real name mis-pronounced. And in this case it's his friends and workmates using it and it simply means that he's perceived as Welsh. (Tho not from Cardiff; I think it's only Welsh people who make that distinction.) But there are certainly situations where I would find 'Taf' - and 'Taffy' even more - offensive.

And about the matter of sub-sections of 'White-ness', I wonder if this is another cultural difference between the USA and elsewhere? This sectioning is quite normal to me as a Canadian, who grew up with the concept of "Cultural Mosaic" (each culture different, but contributing to the whole picture) in Canada, and the USA's concept of "Melting Pot", which I always understood to mean becoming uniquely American (although I'm obviously open to correction).

And Snuffy's 'spot on' in my opinion re: Cardiff and the Valleys. It's their own version of Hambones vs Town Trash.

Ah - the undying traditions!

sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 04:57 AM

Oops! Just realized that my head did a 'leap' between two different threads here! Your comments on White subsections was in the Folklore: What's in a Name thread! My apologies!

Looks like a natural convergence is happening!

sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:09 AM

Again, I suspect there are differences, Sian. I've a feeling North Walian might thing of Taff as referring to a South Walian rather than specifically Cardiff.

I think the one that gets to me is not any name but the number of people, who if I mention living in North (west) Wales to, come up with this picture of coal miners and singing in the Valleys...

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:37 AM

...when, as any fule no, gogs can't sing for toffee!
(sorry, I'll get me coat...)

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:47 AM

LOL. Well a lot of them seem to think they can - they do have the choirs. I'm probably being a little harsh there but I'm not really a fan of male voice (or most for that matter) choir singing.

For a Welsh musical tradition, although I don't know many tunes, I'd take the dance music which people seem to be more aware of now. I went through the second 1/2 of my primary school and the first 2 years of secondary, came back to Wales when I was about 18 and probably was getting on towards 30 before I knew of it.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:55 AM

At the risk of severe thread creep, I wonder what the Morriston Orpheous Choir and their ilk would make of the Spooky Mens' Chorus. Could be just the kick up the tin they need!

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 06:15 AM

Searching for something completely different just now, I came across this on 'welshing' and on the law suit I mentioned above.



sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 07:15 AM

Gervase and all others who have responded to my questions-thanks.

Sian, that last link is quite interesting. Among other things, I learned that Senator Hillary Clinton and her daughter are of Welsh descent. Is that common knowledge? Nevermind, that's just a rhetorical question. No need to go off on that track. I'm going back to lurking & learning.

Thanks again for sharing your culture!

Azizi

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 10:46 AM

Actually, I think we do have to answer that question, and expand the list. It always pays for one to know who one may be offending so one can make an informed decision as to the degree of one's offensiveness. So, either themselves, or their ancestors:

Hillary & blood relatives
lots of signers of the Declaration of Independence including Thos. Jefferson
Elihu Yale
William Penn
Catherine Zeta Jones
Tom Jones
Susan Sarandon
Howard Stringer Chief Executive Officer of Sony Corporation
quite a few C&W singers
Anthony Hopkins
Bob Hope's mother
James Monroe
Abraham Lincoln
Calvin Coolidge
Jefferson Davis
Daniel Boone
abolitionist Cassius M. Clay
African explorer Henry M. Stanley
John Pierpont Morgan
Frank Lloyd Wright
Sinclair Lewis
Jack London
D. W. Griffith
Ray Milland
Billy De Wolfe
William G. Fargo, founder of Wells, Fargo and Company
Tom Cruise
Bette Davis
Glenn Ford
Myrna Loy
John Quincy Adams
James J. Davis
Charles Evans Hughes - Governor of New York
Robert E. Lee
John Marshall - Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court
Murray Humphreys Chicago mobster
George Jones 'New-York Daily Times' founder?
John L. Lewis organized labor union leader
Meriwether Lewis explorer
Isaac Shelby, first Governor of Kentucky
Harriet Beecher Stowe

And that's just the Americans.

sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 10:50 AM

Goresgyniad, myn Duw!

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 11:02 AM

You bet.

And I forgot the Osmonds. And a whole TRUCKLOAD of other Mormons. I think we even 'have' a piece of Tricky Dicky Nixon. (This is an Equal Oppportunities list, saints and sinners included.)

sian

you're beginning to scare me, Gervase.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 05:42 AM

Me scary? Under the facial hair is an asbolute pussycat!

Subject: RE: welsh
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 07:12 AM

Well lift it up and let the cat have it's turn at the cat bowl.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 07:37 AM

Wales and the Welsh great people living in a beautiful country, as an Irishman I always welcome their friendship, and PDQ, Welsh is not an Irish name, Walsh certainly is and is numerous in and around the Munster county of Waterford.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Scrump
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 07:51 AM

"
:
Catherine Zeta Jones
Tom Jones
:
And that's just the Americans.

sian"

Don't let them hear you say that! They may spend more time in the US than in Wales, but that doesn't make them American! ;-)

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Splott Man
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 08:12 AM

Jack Daniels family were from Swansea

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 09:44 AM

So was Ray Daniel he played centre half for Sunderland`s Bank of England team.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: pdq
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 09:56 AM

GUEST...I suggested that 'Welch' was an Irish surname, not 'Welsh'.

Can anyone confirm that Williams, Davis, Thomas and Jones are all Welsh? See list of 'Top 12 US names' posted above.
That would suggest the Wales is a huge contributor to the US gene pool, as well as our culture.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Scrump
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 10:00 AM

Davies is Welsh, not sure about Davis, although it's possibly a variation on the same name, just spelt differently.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 10:27 AM

Re: the names, this converges with what's been discussed on the Folklore: What's in a Name threat about Surname mapping . Check it out.

Scrump, I meant that those were the connections with the United States ... although a lot of those 'stars' have, indeed, taken out American citizenship so are 'Americans'.

I did make a mistake including Stanley of course.

sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: pdq
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 12:16 PM

Ray Milland was born in Neath, but don't look for his relative under the name Milland. He was born Reginald Alfred John Truscott-Jones.

Harold Lloyd Jenkins is in both the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame and the Country Music Hall of Fame, but you have to look under the name under the name Conway Twitty.

Silent movie star Harold LLoyd could trace his ancestors back to Wales, although he was born in Nebraska.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Michael in Swansea
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 12:17 PM

Apologies for thread creep but Pavane is a guest so I can't pm. Pavane if you're reading this the Baggies meet every Friday, (except when we're away somehere of course), in the Commercial Inn, Neath Road, Plasmarl.
Sian thanks for putting me right, silly mistake of me. Gone all red now.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 01:22 PM

Yes, ta, I am reading. I suppose I should get a cookie here!
Difficult for me to make Fridays though, as I am flying back from Europe then.

Also:
Wasn't Elvis Presley somehow linked to Wales? As in Preseli Hills?

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 02:56 PM

Well, Giok, ol' buddy, ol' pal--How the hell are ya?? I always thought (as a kid) it was Welsh "Rabbit"--and it wasn't a sandwich, but a VERY cheesy sauce that was poured over "toast points". And reeeeeeellllllyyyyyy good. Croque Monsieur is a French-elegance version of a ham-&-cheese sandwich: bread-cheese-ham-cheese-bread, soak the outside of the stack in beaten egg, fry gently in butter, turning frequently so heat penetrates thouroughly before endstage browning has happened. My mother said it would be eaten with a fork, and you had to be careful because the cheese would be very hot & runny, so you'd get the bread-ham bit on the fork and wipe up the cheese, and my Grandmother said be careful not to drip it on your chin or blouse front....Oh, the good old days--those voices....and I never connected "welching"(a bad way to deal with anything) with people from Wales. Seemed like a different word. Name-calling's quite an old tradition in human societies, hunh?
Of course, now we're so civilized. We take out our agressive competitiveness in "futbol" & Survivor--& going halfway round the world to bomb & subdue others....
Someone DOES NOT LIKE male choirs??????!!! Did I read that up there somewhere? All that gorgeous music doesn't make you hold your breath and sit forward in your seat?! You were maybe pulling my leg, right?                      Tw

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 03:09 PM

No, Tannywheeler they are not really my cup of tea I'm afraid. I did once go to a concert though when I was a kid and the Llandullas Male Voice choir were singing in Rhyl. I remember coming home really glad I'd been and happy but that was because The Black Dyke Mills Band were on too and the second half was theirs. I thought they were amazing.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: ifor
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 05:01 PM

And one of the great "lost"rock bands of the 1960s were the very talented and very wonderful Eyes of Blue who were from the Swansea and Neath areas in Wales.
ifor

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Fliss
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 10:03 PM

mmm welsh rabbit... pity I cant eat cheese any more. Mum used to make it with mustard. Delia Smith recipe says egg, but I dont remember egg in it. Havnt made it in years. Now youve made me hungry, wonder what it tastes like made with feta cheese:-)

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 10:22 PM

I've no idea as to "traditional recipes" but the "sauce" is cheese, preferably something along the lines of a cheshire IMO, bit of mustard, and milk as far as I'm concerned

I've never had one made entirely with feta but have had feta mixed in with whatever other cheese has been around. Sort of "sharpens it up" for want of a better attempt at description.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 04:08 AM

My favourite is made with a sharp, strong Cheddar, a good pinch of dry English mustard and a slosh of beer to make the grated cheese sticky enough to spread. Dammit, I think I'm going to have to make some now...

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 04:20 AM

From: Fliss
Now youve made me hungry, wonder what it tastes like made with feta cheese:-)

Greek Rarebit? Now there's a thought... I'm hungry now, too, curses!

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 04:28 AM

The Irish name Walsh is interesting in that it seems to be a translation of Breathanach... which means Briton. So it's the same in origin and meaning as the English word Welsh.

And of course it WAS Welsh Rabbit. The Welsh were always being mocked in the old days (up to the 18th century at least) for their love of cheese and milk, when English folk would prefer even bad meat and sour beer."Rarebit" is just an attempt to make it respectable.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 05:29 AM

Yes, I suppose posh Englisg folk would pronounce "Rabbit" as "Rebbit" which could have become "Rarebit" over time.

(Similar to the old joke about posh folk thinking sex is what you put coal in (groan))

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 05:30 AM

Oops, I meant English - curse this keyboard, it carn't spel

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 09:02 AM

Walsh - Breathanach. Which came first and which was the translation?

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Helen
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 05:26 PM

My Grandma was Welsh so my Mum used to say the Taffy rhyme sometimes. I always thought that Taffy came from Daffyd so I never thought of it as a particularly derogatory term, but on tv I've heard it said with a sneer - the same as any label for people, I suppose.

My Grandma used to say "ach y fi" e.g. when she spilled something or had a minor mishap. I understand that it is just a mild exclamation that doesn't really mean anything, like "dear me" but whenever I think of it I hear my Grandma's voice and intonation, expressing frustration or something.

I never associated the term "to welsh on a deal" as being related to being Welsh, either.

Helen

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Crane Driver
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 06:15 PM

There is a small chapel dedicated to a 'St Elvis' near Solva, Pembrokeshire (near the Preseli Mountains). St Elvis was apparently a relative of St Non, who was the mother of St David. So 'Elvis (of) Preseli' would be a good Welsh name, yes.

The inhabitabts of Penclawdd on North Gower were apparently referred to as 'Dunks' - probably because of the donkeys they used when gathering cockles from the Loughor estuary.

Pavane old mate, get yer cookie back and pm me for details of Charlie's visit.

BTW, there's an old Swansea joke that says that Gogs are like piles:













If they come down and go back up, they're OK, but if they come down and stay, they're a pain in the a***.

Andrew

Subject: RE: welsh
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 10:51 AM

'make the grated cheese more sticky'! The grated cheese should be melted into the sauce and then poured over the toast.

On the meaning of 'Welsh', place name dictionaries say it is from the Anglo-Saxon for 'foreigner', but this is not quite true. The word has pejorative connotations. For example --- my adoped hometyown in the UK's West Midlands is called WAlsall, derived from 'walsh heol', meaning 'the valley where the foreigners live'. This is because the invading English settled in all the towns around, but left the damp river valey to us Brits. A few miles north is a place called Eccleshall, which means 'valley where the Christians live'. Obviously by the time it was named the English colonisers had stopped calling the natives by the opprobrious 'walsh' and started to refer to them as Christians.

Regarding 'Taffy was a Welshman' --- H.B.Morton pointed out that it is an Anglicisation of an older Dutch Anti-Catholic sneer. You'll find it in either his 'In Search of England' or 'In Search of Wales'

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Splott Man
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 04:16 AM

Just a thought.

We are all aware of the origins of the word "welsh", but nobody I know here in Wales feels insulted by the word. it's pejorative sense has long gone.

Subject: RE: welsh
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:01 AM

Agreed, Splott Man. Whether or not the word was originally associated with Welsh folk, I think it's over-reacting to take offence at its use. The word has long since lost any connotations of being anti-Welsh, if it ever had in teh first place.

I'd hate to see yet another word fall victim to the humourless PC brigade :(

Subject: RE: welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:34 AM

Scrump, I do believe that any suggestion of offensive given was related to using the word 'welsh' as a verb for bad debt, not as a reference to the Nation or nationality. I'm with Splotty on that one.

Having said that, I do occasionally see "Cymru" or "Cymry" being used internationally by other nations to refer to the Welsh or Wales in documentation or discussions. Not often, admittedly.

sian

Subject: RE: welsh
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 10:01 AM

To splottman. post no4 Micheal from swansea , finds it does piss him off a bit, so clearly it does offend.