Non-Music -What the world has to say

Subject: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 04:40 PM

A friend sent this to me. He is a retired history teacher and now, head of the state labor party. He has recently had a book published, All Empires Die, which I haven't had a chance to read, yet. Anyway, I thought this was very interesting:

Here follow editorial excerpts from newspapers around the world, taken from the November 2001 issue of World Press Review:

1. Mail&Guardian, Johannesburg, South Africa: (Sept. 14, 2001)

It is a safe assumption that the trigger for this week's attacks is the spiraling conflict in the Middle East, for which the United States must accept much responsibility. There can be no peace until the Israelis accept a Palestinian state, which in turn hinges on the removal of Israeli settlements from the occupied territories and concessions on the status of Jerusalem. . . .Without U.S. patronage, Israel cannot survive. What has the world's superpower done to push its client to the negotiating table?

2. The Canberra Times, Canberra Australia: (Sept. 19, 2001)

The Bush administration has largely turned a blind eye to Israel's current policy of officially assassinating its Palestinian enemies and has not taken an active role in brokering a peace deal. . . .American television coverage of the terrorist actions seemed sound enough on the basic facts, but there was very little to answer the underlying question as to why anyone would plan and execute such violence. As far as a lot of American commentators were concerned, the culprits were just a bunch of irrational maniacs striking out at a "perceived enemy."

3. Reforma, Mexico City, Mexico: (Sept. 12, 2001)

From the moment television and radio reported the attack, one of the first suspects seemed to be Islamic and Palestinian fundamentalism. The cause is obvious. Over the last several weeks and months we have been horrified at those young men ready to immolate themselves for the sake of wounding or hurting their irreconcilable enemies. Also well-known is the resentment and hate these groups harbor against the United States, the strategic ally of Israel.

4. Gatra (weekly magazine), Jakarta, Indonesia: (Sept. 22, 2001)

"American terrorism is more dangerous than other terrorisms," said Sheik Hamed Betawi, the preacher at a mosque in the Palestinian city of Nablus. According to him, what the U.S. government has committed against the Palestinians is a crime. "An injustice will bring another new injustice," he added. The Associated Press reported that the Friday sermons from Baghdad, Beirut, Gaza, and Palestine repeated the message that the attack was an unavoidable consequence of America's total support for Israel.

5. Semana. Bogota, Columbia: (Sept. 14, 2001

Almost 50 years ago, an Algerian fighting for independence explained, "We plant bombs in supermarkets because we do not have airplanes to bomb French cities, while the French have airplanes, so they bomb Algerian towns." The advance was that instead of putting a bomb in a passenger plane, the terrorists decided to use a passenger plane itself as a bomb.

This is natural progress, of course, in the war between the strong and the weak. It was only natural that after half a century of the American government devastating cities around the world--Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Korean villages, Hanoi, Beirut, Panama, Tripoli, Kabul, Baghdad, Belgrade--it would be New York and Washington's turn to experience horror. They have spent their whole lives sowing rancor through the world; they should not be surprised now by what they are reaping.

6. Nation Sudsapda Weekly, Bangkok Thailand: (Sept. 23, 2001)

From now on, the U.S. government must review its foreign policy toward the Middle East, particularly toward Israel, which has caused so much anger among Arabs. Otherwise, Americans' life overseas will have no guarantee of safety.

Even after the U.S. retaliates, as promised by President George W. Bush, that does not mean an end or decrease in terrorism. It might, on the contrary, spark a new form of more sophisticated terrorism.

The problem goes beyond the American territory and the American people. U.S. allies also may be targeted in the same manner that the United States targets the suspects as well as the "countries who helped or harbored" them.

7. El Watan, Algiers, Algeria: (Sept. 19, 2001

The West unconditionally backed the monarchies of the Gulf, a breeding ground of fundamentalism, because of their oil resources, while at the same time lending blinkered support to Israel's expansionist policies.

Resentment, widespread in the Arab world by the end of the 20th century, has been exploited by the fundamentalists, who have channeled it into a "holy war" (jihad) against the West. The West, and notably the United States, has learned nothing from all this. Worse, the West has aggravated frustrations the world over by canonizing laissez faire economics, whose centerpiece--globalization--heralds the systematic impoverishment of billions of people.

8. Dani, Sarajevo, Bosnia: (Sept. 14, 2001)

In "the world that should be defended at any price," 30,000 children die of hunger every hour, while most of the developed countries experience a period of prosperity unprecedented in the history of mankind. Three million children in Africa die every year from tropical diseases such as malaria because a US$1 vaccine is out of their reach. America and its allies spent thousands of billions of dollars during the Cold War to stop the spread of communism. The task now is much more complex, and the main goal of foreign policy must be the opposite: to ensure aid so all parts of the world, including the poorest, can be integrated into a global economic and environmental network

9. Vecernji, Zagreb, Croatia: (Sept. 13, 2001)

Terror is never innocent, but there is no terror without reason. Avenging terror, punishing it, does not mean eliminating its causes. Furthermore, an inappropriate reprisal can exacerbate those causes.

The world of capitalism bows to two gods--money and technology. Everything that cannnot adapt, or does not want to adapt, to financial or technological standards faces scorn, poverty, and grief. Is there any person worthy of world renown, aside from the pope, whom the Western world has produced in recent decades? An admirable person, exemplifying morality and unselfishness?

10. Daily Telegraph, London, England: (Sept. 16, 2001)

The United States must punish Islamic fundamentalists for last Tuesday's unfathomable wickedness, but by doing so it could very well destabilize the very states in the Middle East upon which the world economy depends. For one of the geo-religious paradoxes of the planet is that the meridians of oil and Islam coincide, with virtually every state along those meridians being threatened by Islamic militants.

11. Netzeitung, Berlin, Germany: (Sept. 13, 2001)

The mood in the United States is clear: Hit someone, anyone! Show them that we will not tolerate such terrorism.

The problem is that terrorism cannot bve repressed through military reprisals or international morality. There is deeply rooted hostility in wide parts of the Arab world against the West and, especially, against the United States. Have we forgotten the photos of burning American flags? The determination of Hamas members when they attack Israel?

12. Eleftherotypia, Athens, Greece: (Sept. 16, 2001)

The blind clash that leads to "human bombs," in conjunction with contemporary lifestyles, portrays the size of the dangers ahead. Under these circumstances, the weapons are not contemporary technology, intelligence services, a police state, or defense enhancement; they are democracy, education and the interaction of the two civilizations. They are the bridging of the gap, and not the pseudo-economic approach between developed countries and those of the Third World. The organized and stern reaction to terrorism should not lead to any compromises for democracy.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:03 PM

No shit, Sherlock. We've been living the good life at the expense of people all over the world, ignoring the implications of keeping Palestinians in scummy refugee camps for 50 years, and generally acting as if there are no interests except our own. What a surprise that they really don't like us!

The only way out of this is to somehow make the Israelis and Palestinians negotiate like they mean it until both sides have given up enough to make the other guys happy, and the Palestinians have somewhere to call home. Then somebody else has got to enforce the terms on both of them. The trouble has been that every time a leader looks like he might really want to make peace, some idiot fanatic assasinates him.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:25 PM

Why is it OUR fault that the Israelis and Palestinians refuse to get along? Everytime they call a cease fire, somebody breaks it. And yes, somebody assassinates the leader who tries to make it work.

For a nation that lives at the expense of other people, we sure do dole out a lot of money to aid other countries.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:06 PM

It's high time, in fact perilously late, that the U.S. and the rest of the western world call a conference to explore reasons and solutions for the present-day terroristic environment. The U.S. has to face and acknowledge – and soon - its role of the last 50 years in destabilizing and antagonizing powerless countries- far too frequently we have put our money and power behind despots and tyrants because of a sometimes fleeting perceived advantage to us.

We have to start thinking outside the box that we've trapped ourselves in. If the western world called a conference for the best minds and the leaders of affected countries to come together and explore ways and means, it could defuse the current situation. Especially if it were the U.S. who called for the conference. Just think - if the U.S. took the lead in changing the course of the world- 50 years from now, we could still be reaping the benefits.

In the meantime, rather than bombing the hell out of an already ravaged country and threatening others, we could concentrate on security issues.

There is simply no way that the U.S. can 'eradicate' terrorism. If we kill every one of the leaders, we will create another generation of killers. That means that our stated goal is not possible.

All countries act out of self-interest. However, many of our actions, military and otherwise, have boomeranged. We've got to get smarter about it.

IMO

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:04 PM

Well put, Ebbie and I agree. If only...

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:35 PM

But we must/em>. Can we form a coalition, start marching, inundate our leaders with suggestions, write, speak publicly...?

We accept that each of us has the ability to reach anyone in the country within less than 10 moves- can we work on that?

I think it is imperative. We're going down a slippery slope.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:56 PM

The www.moveon.org people did it when Clinton was under seige. I don't know what they are up to right now, but I will check. They are good people, from all walks of life, all parties, and have in place the mechanisms, etc. to get something going. Good news, I think. Take a look at their site. It looks as though this is all they are working on and discussing at the moment.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 10:19 PM

yes you can eradicate terrorism, it will take a lot of work both politically and militarily. And I dont buy this Root Causes argument, That now the chickens have come home to roost. There are terrorists around that are just brainwashed angry young men, what did Japan do to deserve AUm SHinrikyo or the Japanese Red Army in the 70s for example. The Baader MeinHof gang the Symbionese Liberation army, ANd for that matter Abu Nidal where are they now. We even had a few in Canada, of course there was the FLQ but there was also Direct Action here in BC which blew up Hydro stations and other targets in the early 80s (hardly anyone hears about them now) To say that the US asked for it, lends legitimacy to what the terrorists did.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Terrie
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 11:05 PM

Oh thank you so much Kat, now I can post this piece which has been eating my heart out.

My friend Colleen arrived for a facial when FBI agents were leaving Murad on Sunday, October 7, 2001. They were there to interrogate a girl who worked there to find out if she knew anything. The reason for their lead was she was best-friends with a girl who was dating an Arab man, who disappeared and was involved in the terrorist attacks on the WTC. He disappeared this summer and left her a note, saying the following in the effect of: "I have to go away and will not be able to see you again. Please do me a favor and do not fly in any planes on September 11, 2001 nor shop at any shopping malls on October 31, 2001 ......... " Don't know about you but I live across the street from a shopping mall, and my in-laws do too. Given my daughter is usually at their house on a Wednesday afternoon, right near the mall, am thinking of where else to go. Halloween may not be so Happy. Please send this to anyone that you know. Let's hope this isn't for real, but since it was actually left in a letter to a loved one from one of the people involved in the attacks of September 11, 2001, I am not taking it too lightly. Love, Terrie Terrie Myerchin Executive Assistant DIRECTV, Inc. 2230 E. Imperial Hway El Segundo, CA. 90245 T: [phone] F: [phone] [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: rangeroger
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 11:32 PM

GUEST,Terrie, that is a hoax and has already been debunked.

rr

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:45 AM

Terrie, I'm sure that what rangerroger meant to say is this is a hoax making the rounds; you can find it at this site:http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/rumors.htm

Rough as a cob there, eh, rr?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:47 AM

Thanks, rr and Ebbie.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:28 AM

It would be well to remember how and why the USA was founded in the first place, and ask the question...why was it founded?

It was founded in order to establish radical new social and political freedoms from a distant and autocratic monarchy, and to set up those freedoms in a brand new way.

It was NOT done to make a shitload of money and sell consumer goods to a jaded and regimented public living a bloated lifestyle at the expense of much of the rest of the world.

The founders of America would not recognize what it has become...and yet the same cliches are spoken again and again by American presidents about freedom, democracy, and justice...as though those values had anything to do any longer with American policy.

American policy has to do with money and the gun. Money and the gun. Markets. Banks. Stocks and bonds. Military supremacy. Pork bellies. Oil. Territory. Immediate material gain. Wrap it in the flag and call it democracy, but the world outside America is not fooled.

What is going on is plainly obvious to the rest of the world, and that is why such hatred has been engendered against America and its allies (one of which is my own country) among the poor and disenfranchised people in smaller and weaker countries. America is now Boss Tweed, and her allies are his cronies, running a new Tammany Hall over most of the world. The whole world knows it! It's as obvious as a total eclipse of the sun at high noon. America's corporate logos are seen in every corner of the Earth now.

As long as big money behind the scenes wins every election (because it owns every large political party) and calls every shot in North America...how can this be changed?

When men live just for money they lose their souls. Talk about the Heart of Darkness! It lives and beats on your TV and your radio. It beckons you to the mall. Eat, drink, and spend...for tomorrow you die. (Maybe even today.) Grow fat, like a guinea pig in a cage.

All that money and all that creative genius has largely gone to waste. The real problems in the world have been ignored while ways were sought to sell even more stuff so some huge corporations could make an even bigger profit.

And none of that has anything to do with real freedom at all. In fact it's beginning to threaten everyone's freedom now. Everywhere. The poor people are not your real enemy...it just looks that way reflected on the grinning shiny surface of the corporate mask that beckons you to the mall, and enslaves you nine to five...if you haven't been downsized yet.

A corporation has no soul, but it does have hunger, needs, and a continual agenda to enlarge itself...just like a cancerous growth on the human body.

To oppose American policy in the world is not to be anti-American, because ordinary Americans are themselves the victims of it, as are other people, but in a different way. The desire for money without consideration of morality, actual need, or sanity has brought us to our present pass...and insanity in high places is very good at provoking opposing insanity in low places...as we have all seen recently.

Can terrorism be eradicated through an aggressive response? I doubt it. There are too many "Injuns" out there this time for you to kill and pen up in reservations, but I do think poverty, homelessness, injustice and inequity can be eradicated...a piece at a time.

That will not, however, happen when 98% of the USA's national effort continues going toward playing the same old games of money and the gun which exterminated 30 million buffalo a century and a half ago...for a quick buck. The native people who witnessed it could hardly believe such corrupt greed could exist. It still commands your armies to this day, from way back behind the outer facade of patriotism, honor and duty. That is not to judge your soldiers, who are, like most people, innocent men of good intention, but they know not what they serve.

- LH

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:40 AM

Little Hawk, we came by the greed and cruelty honestly- remember where we came from? *G*

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 03:29 AM

This may be somewhat off topic on this thread, but I don't know where it would be more appropriate.

About ten years ago, when my son was about seven or eight and going through an extremely stressful experience, he and I were playing Monopoly one evening. He was being very aggressive and wanting to completely control the game, beyond what was allowed by the rules. This behavior was understandable considering his age and the circumstances he was experiencing. I decided to go with what he was doing, and try an experiment.

I told him that instead of playing Monopoly, we were going to play "Dictator". Using the Monopoly game as the basis for this new game, I explained the rules. I told him that he could make any rules he wanted. He could completely control everything that happened in the game. He could completely control the money. He could have as many of the playing pieces he wanted except for the one I needed to remain in the game. He could control all of the real estate, utilities, railroads, hotels, and houses.

In other words, he had complete control over the game, and the way it was played. Except for one thing. He was the Dictator and I was the peasants. I could, as the peasants, decide to have an uprising at any time that I thought it might be productive. This meant that I could steal his playing piece off of the game board whenever I thought I could get away with it. And according to the new rules, if he ran out of playing pieces, I would win the game.

At first, he ruled the game with an incredibly tight fist. I started out with one playing piece and one piece of real estate. After a short time, he had me so deeply in debt to him, it would take generations for me to pay it off. If it could be paid off at all. I began to initiate peasant uprisings. If he looked away from the board for just a moment, I stole his piece. I devised all kinds of ways to divert his attention and take his piece without him noticing. I found all kinds of ways that he wouldn't expect to take his piece. He had to maintain the utmost vigilance at all times. He couldn't relax for even a moment. At this point, being in total dictatorial control started to lose its appeal to him. He began to get tired of it.

After a little while, he started to become much more lenient. Then he became generous. He learned what sort of balance was needed to keep the peasants happy enough that they didn't feel that attempting an uprising was worth the risk.

I think both he and I learned a lot playing that game.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:28 PM

Great idea, CarolC! And something he will probably utilize with his own children some day.

It would be nice if something like that could be devised for world leaders- rather than War Strategy exercises.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM

I'm really sorry - but to generalize to America is no better than to generalize to Palestinians, Muslims, or any other group. No one had what occurred on September 11 owed to them.

I say again - No one.

The inferences that America did something to invite this is really sad to me. This planet is a socially evolving one and today is not yesterday just as yesterday is not tomorrow. Look around you all in this forum. You have made alliances about belief systems and anchored it with historical analogies. This is the same rationale that drives people to do acts of destruction in the name of something or another.

Generalizing that one group or another's actions/inactions, divided by race, national origin, religion, color, or whatever, is the reason for an action for or against another group is simply bigoted and racist.

All of the above is being said in a very thoughtful, soft, gentle manner (I've been feeling pretty sad lately so maybe that is why I state this). I blame no one here or elsewhere for the terrible things being done in the name of "God." People make choices and act on those choices. Those same people that act on their choices must also be held accountable for their actions. It is called responsibility.

I would hope that mankind would be able to take this tragedy and permeate a truth from it that would allow all of us to change how we do business with each other.

What do you think folks?

Steve

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: jeffp
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM

Sort of an update on the old Sword of Damocles, isn't it? I like your idea, Carol.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:33 PM

Lhawk, the one thing about economic globalism is that it is democratic, one can choose not to go that Macdonalds or buy Nike. a western reporter recently interviewed people in Egypt many of whom were strongly anti american and said that America deserved it, almost invariably the conversations turned to how they could come to the US and get a job there.

excellent comment STeve I agree.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Stewart
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:09 PM

October 12, 2001; New York Times

Bush to bin Laden

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

The White House has asked U.S. networks to limit broadcasts of statements by Osama bin Laden. I wish that instead of censorship, the president would respond to him. Here's what Mr. Bush could say:

Dear bin Laden: I've listened to the statement you released through Al Jazeera TV. Since I know that no Arab or Muslimleader will dare answer you, I thought I would do it. Let me be blunt: Your statement was pathetic. It's obvious from what you said that you don't have a clue why we're so strong or why the Arab regimes you despise are so weak.

You spoke about the suicide attacks on us as being just revenge for the "80 years of humiliation and disgrace" the Islamic nation has gone through. You referred to the hijackers as a Muslim vanguard sent "to destroy America," the leader of the "international infidels," and you denounced the Arab regimes as "hypocrites" and "hereditary rulers."

What was most revealing, though, was what you didn't say: You offered no vision of the future. This was probably your last will and testament — I sure hope so — and you could have said anything you wanted to future generations. After all, it was your mike. Yet you had nothing to say. Your only message to the Muslim world was whom to hate, not what to build — let alone how.

In part it's because you really don't know much about Islamic history. The Muslim world reached the zenith of its influence in the Middle Ages — when it preserved the best of classical Greek and Roman teachings, and inspired breakthroughs in mathematics, science, medicine and philosophy. That is also when Islam was at its most open to the world, when it enriched, and was enriched by, the Christian, Greek and Jewish communities in its midst — whom you now disparage as infidels — and when it was actively trading with all corners of the world. Your closed, inward, hate-filled version of Islam — which treats women as cattle and all non-Muslims as enemies — corresponds with no period of greatness for Islam, and will bring none.

It was also revealing that the only Arab state you mentioned was Iraq. Interesting — Iraq is led by a fascist dictator, Saddam Hussein, who used poison gas against his own people, who squandered Iraq's oil wealth to build himself palaces and who raped Kuwait. But you are silent about all that. What bothers you is our targeted sanctions to end such a regime — not the regime itself.

In other words, you not only don't understand the Muslim past, you don't understand its present. The reason these past 80 years have been so stagnant for the Arab-Muslim world is not because we in America have been trying to keep you down. Actually, we haven't been thinking about you much at all. No, the difference between American power, Chinese power, Latin American power and Arab-Muslim power today is what we've each been doing for these past 80 years. We and others have been trying to answer many questions: How do we best educate our kids? How do we increase our trade? How do we build an industrial base? How do we increase political participation? And we judged our leaders on how well they answered all those questions.

But people like you want Arabs and Muslims to ask only one question of their leaders: How well did you fight the infidels and Israelis? I know that who rules Jerusalem is a deeply important part of your heritage, and every Arab-Muslim leader must address it. But it can't be the only question. Yet, because people like you have reduced it to the only question, and tried to intimidate every Arab who wanted to ask other questions, you have allowed your region to be led by scoundrels, like Saddam.

Yes, you've wreaked some havoc, bin Laden, but don't flatter yourself into thinking you can destroy us. You have to build something strong to destroy something strong. But you can't. Because all the intellectual and creative energies in the Arab-Muslim world — which are as bountiful as in any other region — can never reach their full potential under repressive regimes like Iraq or leaders like yourself.

Stalin and Mao killed a lot of their own people, but even these thugs had a plan for their societies. You, bin Laden, are nothing but a hijacker — a hijacker of Islam, a hijacker of other people's technology, a hijacker of a vast Arab nation's anger at its own regimes. But you have no vision and no plan for your people. Which is why your epitaph will be easy to write:

Osama bin Laden — he destroyed much, he built nothing. His lasting impact was like a footprint in the desert.

----------------------------------------------------

This is a well-thought reply to much of the above.
S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:58 PM

Steve - yep.

petr - also notice how many people from other countries come to the US to get an education. I heard some of those "America asked for it" comments by a Middle Eastern doctor who had got his MD here in the states. Go figure.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:11 PM

I am a liberal, left wing, labor organizer. As to the cause of the Palestinians and there right to an independent homeland, I am in support, but only if there is an acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist. I am appalled at the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government, and sickened by my own government turning a blind eye to it. In the opening moments of this tragedy, on the Mudcat, I posted that I felt as though we must respond strategically and surgically. And I said several times that we must also enter into a time of introspection in order to understand what causes these types of actions. Smarter folks than I have posted above about this. Having said that.....

These people killed 6000 innocents. Folks that were doing nothing more than prosecuting their daily lives. Now it appears that they are attempting to unleash biological terror, again, on innocents. bin Laden, on TV, has said that he intends to kill every American that he can. That makes my children and my family a target. And finally, he has murdered innocence. I am not being emotional here, I just understand who his targets are, and the horrid lengths he will go to to achieve them. With that understanding comes commitment. In this matter I am not liberal, I am not conservative. I am the intended victim. Been that before. As before, I am not going to allow that. My opinion is that we must wipe out this organization. Its structure must not survive the conflict. Its leaders, as well as the perpetrators of the bio terror (whomever they are) must be hunted down and eliminated. Period. Any government which in any way supports these acts in a tangible way must suffer the same fate. There is such a thing as a just war. This act, and the acts of the bio terrorists, have made this one of those. I would go tomorrow if asked, and I believe we must be ruthless and relentless in this task.

Do not mistake this as vitriol. It is a declaration of understanding of the aims of the perpetrators of this act. I still feel as I did in the beginning with regard to seeking to be a more responsible citizen state of this world we live in. I want us to be respectful of other cultures, and more responsible in our use of the limited resources that the Earth Mother has provided for us. I want us to advocate on behalf of the downtrodden, and use our resources to feed the children. But anyone that seeks to hunt me and mine, is my enemy. And I don't believe in being gentle with predators such as these.

Rant ended.

Mick

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:57 PM

Hear, hear, Mick. Excellent summation of the situation I think.

I really believe the people who do not agree with your POV simply do not understand the enemy we are facing, and how committed they are to achieving their goals. DougR

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:10 PM

I do understand the visceral response- we all have it, I think.

My point is: Where does it end? You hit me, I hit you, you hit me, my children hate you, your children hate me, ad infinitum.

Might it not be better for me to find out why you hit me?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:21 PM

Ditto Mick.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Leila
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:58 PM

If the U.S. helps those who are struggling, they are vilified for sticking their noses into other peoples business. If the U.S. doesn't help those who are suffering, they are vilified for letting them suffer.

If the U.S. bombs strongholds of the Taliban - who harbour a man when even other fundamentalist Muslim nations agree that there is compelling evidence to subject him to a trial, who murder women for having skin, who subvert religion to such disgusting ends... they are vilified for it. If the U.S. drops thousands of pounds of food - Islamic faith appropriate food!! to the starving Afghani people, long time victims of that same Taliban - hmmm, this isn't mentioned much...

Why do they bother? Good question.

Is the U.S. perfect? Infallible? Ha! - Is anyone? But there's imperfect, there's fallible and then there's evil.

George W. (IMHO) didn't win the election, let's face it he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. But he went on international TV and told anyone who targets people just because they appear to be middle eastern, or are Muslim should be ashamed of themselves. THe U.S. media is going out of their way to educate people to how far away from the Islamic faith the Taliban and bin Laden are. That muslims are NOT about terrorism and murder.

That is NOT about teaching their children to hate - that is about learning your facts before you act rashly. The U.S. didn't act rashly, they waited they had clear evidence as to who did it. They asked for him to be turned over for TRIAL. THey said what would happen if refused. They followed through. THey took every precaution to only hit military and gov't sites - to not harm civilians. They do not achieve perfection in this, but they try.

I have been pleasantly surprised at how well this atrocity has been handled by "W" and the U.S.

Peace, Leila

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:01 PM

KimC, from your facile remark about American generosity to the world, I guess you are aware of onoly half the story.

Yes, the US, with its six per cent of the world population chews up 30 to 50 per cent of the world's finite resources (according to whose figures you take) and accounts for nearly half of all global pollution. But what does it give back, or even invest in the development of the world's poorest nations? Virtually nothing.

Even the US government accepts that eradication of poverty and malnutration, worldwide, would take less than one per cent of the global economy. That's why the UN set a target for OECD countries to invest 0.7 per cent of their GNPs in international development aid. Some countries (eg Sweden, Norway, Japan) exceed this. The UK is managing a miserable 0.38 per cent at present. Where is the US? Bottom of the list, of course, with a shaming 0.09 per cent.

Even if you go by actual dollars, the US comes behind Japan, Germany and one or two others, notwithstanding that it is the world's richest country by miles.

As for that drivel posted by Stewart, I was particularly amused to read: you don't have a clue why we (America) are so strong.... Strong? In some parts of the world it looks like America has been turned into a headless chicken by a few nutters with penknives and white sand. When it comes to the crunch, America is no stronger than anywhere else, because it is just as vulnerable as the rest of us to criminal protest.

As for you, Big Mick, I'm surprised! I suppose the present campaign is indeed surgical, to the extent that unlike in the Balkan fiasco they have so far managed to avoid bombing the wrong country. God knows what they are hitting though, apart from Red Cross dumps and UN mine-clearing personnel. (Difficult to cover up blunders on that scale I suppose.)

During those early weeks of commendable restraint, it really looked like there was a chance for real progress. But hope went out of the window once the missiles started flying. American networks will soon be full of images of homeless families starving through this coming winter in their thousands. And in months to come, the heroes flying the gunships etc will come home to find they are not heroes at all, but the living embodiment of their nation's guilty conscience. But this time they will have no excuse, because they had the chance to learn from the experiences of you, Mick, and your comrades in arms in an earlier campaign, as you once recounted so movingly in another thread.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:28 PM

Stewart's posting of Friedman's editorial just about said it all. I would add that no one mentions the great efforts made by most American Presidents this side of the 1970's to broker a fair peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, up to Clinton's attempt at which Arafat pretty much refused to deal.

I would add finally that there IS a Palestinian State. It is called Jordan. Progress would be made if all those Palestinians in camps in Gaza and elsewhere would relocate there.

Asking Israel to diminish itself to indefensible borders would not advance the cause of peace, quite the reverse.

American aide to the world in general is far and ahead of any other country's. Remember not to define aide in some narrow band of contributions to the U.N. or World Bank. Consider the Marshall plan, which I believe Sir Winston referred to as 'the most unsordid act in history'. He had a way with words.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:59 PM

Fionn, my friend, I am no different than I ever was. But you need to reread what I said. There were several distinct aspects to it. One deals with what I want to have happen from an intellectual standpoint. But the other is very real, and deals with a whole other aspect. This man killed 6,000 people in one swoop. And it appears that he, or those that support him, are now attempting to use biological weapons to kill Americans............and by his own words, all Americans. That moves me to a whole different place, a place that I didn't want to be again. We can intellectualize all we want, but the fucker is mailing military weapons grade Anthrax. He is hunting me and mine, again by his own words. This is an animal, and it needs to be removed.

Rest assured, Fionn, that I will be in the streets if we go to indiscriminate bombing. Yes, there have been mistakes, there always will be. If we get sloppy, I will be in the van. But this creature and his nest must be dealt with.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:02 PM

No Fionn - Hope went out the window when the terrorists smashed the planes into the towers.

And as far as Drivel goes - I work for the Air Force and it is my unit that is doing the bombing over there. Unless you have experience in combat I'd suggest you speak easy about what is happening. It isn't all nice and pretty like what you play on your little gameboy. One's aim gets a bit off when others are shooting at you.

We buried our first casualty today. I buried others in another war. So if I am pissed - well so be it. And don't you dare frickin patronize me and the other combat veterans you pompous ass. You bet it bothers me that we are back at it again - but I believe we are doing the best we can. It's no win for the most part. And we are being as surgical as we can be. Where do the Taliban locate their valued items? Close as they can to places that will catch headlines when a shell goes off a bit.

You like your life so well - live it - but at what cost are you willing to turn your cheek - eh mate?

F**Kin pissed

Good on you Mick - Steve

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:17 PM

My Dream -

The year is 2032. A boy, about eight years old, is taking a walk with his grandfather in lower Manhattan. They come to a large field where the grandfather pauses, takes off his hat, and sighs. They boy turns to his grandfather and asks, "What's wrong, Grandpa?"

"Well, on this beautiful field used to be the World Trade Center. The two tallest buildings in the world used to sit right here on this spot. They were the heart of the world's financial center, and wonderful symbols of this great city of ours." "Where are they now, Grandpa?"

"Some Arabs blew them up back in 2001."

The boy thinks for a moment, then turns back and says: "What's an Arab?"

Steve

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:28 PM

Steve, I hope I have misread your post. Are you suggesting that we should kill all Arabs?

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:37 PM

You misread Carol - I would hope that we could come to the point where we recognize each other as humans and all members of the human race.

When I get angry I don't always get clear. I got angry at Fionn's post. Ah crap - why do I get baited into these little trollops -

Sorry - I swore I wouldn't get baited into these little firefights and then what do I do?

Maybe 30 years isn't enough time.

- Steve

Would you remove that post for me Joe? It doesn't make sense now that I read it myself - Crap crap crap crap -

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:44 PM

Thanks Steve. I share your dream about all of us recognizing each other as members of the human race. I don't think you need for that post to be deleted now that you've made yourself clear. It's a good sentiment.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:46 PM

Steve, I think it is a worthy dream. Thanks for posting it.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: DougR
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:46 AM

Norton 1, I think were you to substitute the word terrorist for Arab, you would have a nice little story there.

Don't let Fionn get under your skin, Steve. I'm sure he is satisfied having others fight his battles for him so that he can continue spewing his hate of the U. S. Fortunately, he represents the minority view I believe.

DougR

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:29 PM

You're right, Fionn, I don't know the whole story and have never claimed to. But it's like Leila said, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Perhaps you will consider this facile, too, and perhaps rightfully so... but because I am ignorant of many matters, and freely admit it, I ask these questions because I wish to be enlightened.

The U.S. buys an awful lot of products from other countries. An AWFUL LOT. Look at your clothing labels and you'll see we get things from Russia and the Eastern Bloc countries, not to mention Pakistan, Israel, Egypt, China, Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia, etc. etc. etc. A lot of the lapis lazuli in the jewelry trade comes from - guess where - Afghanistan. And everyone knows where we get most of our oil from.

Does our trade with such countries not help their economy? If not, how is that our fault? We cannot control what happens to the funds when another government gets ahold of them. Or can we? I don't know.

Is it somehow wrong for us to try to aid the poor and destitute within our own borders before we go giving aid and comfort to other countries? Sure, this is a prosperous country, but there's a lot of people here who need help. Do we not have a duty to them first?

Somebody enlighten me, because I really do not know.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:34 PM

of course fionn you are entitled to your facile drivel as well. but you ought to keep in mind that Bin Ladens decree includes you as well (all americans and their allies civilian or otherwise) p

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:48 PM

Steve's 'What are Arabs?' story has been told even with the same year (2032) in the 'Jokes in worst possible taste thread' as a joke. Silly me to have misunderstood a friendly human touch story as a racist joke.

Steve, I guess you have read that joke some place and failed to understand the brutal punchline.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:51 PM

As of Sept 22, when did the US flatten Kabul, as per the Indonesian newspaper? Not to pick nits, but wasn't it the Soviets who flattened Kabul? Clearly different standards of factuality hold for these foreign newspapers. Which makes their editorializing rather hard to take at face value.

Alex

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM

Wolfgang, thanks for pointing that out. I'd missed that thread. I just took it to mean the child knew no prejudices by then, but I see know how it could also be very racist. Best told with some modifications, perhaps.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Captain America
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:02 PM

Mousethief,

Good point about irrational editorializing by many newspapers abroad. It is pretty amusing the way that the U.S. is viewed by many as the source of all evil even when the roots of many problems date to times when the U.S. did not exist or when it had virtually no involvement in international affairs. For example, many conflicts in the Middle East and Asia stem from the colonialist programs of European nations. And unless I am mistaken, people in these areas were trying to conquer and/or exploit one another long before European-based colonialism developed. And sorry but the U.S. is far from being the only capitalist nation. In fact, we didn't even invent it or fully participate in it for a long time. That credit must go elsewhere. So yes, the U.S. is a major player in current world affairs and no we are not perfect, but don't try to make us a scapegoat for the basic fact that humans have been and will be shitty toward each other. If the U.S. did try to adopt an isolationist policy, the same people who criticize us for causing harm would be begging us to get back involved in mediating disputes, providing aid, and participating in the global economy.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Captain American
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM

An addendum:

What the "World" says must be taken with a grain of salt. Much of the criticism comes from a small (but very vocal) portion of the population of various countries. News reports can be deceptive since they always focus on tthe most dramatic scenes such as a few thousand protesters in a city of millions. Following such logic one could say that Bush's policy has no domestic support because ten percent of American do not approve of his actions and there have been some anti-war protests on college campuses.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:30 PM

Wolfgang - I didn't read the thing as a joke - I thought it was a point about time healing wounds and the old man being a generation that saw the discrimination and the boy as the generation that saw equality. I guess it can be read in two ways - I sure didn't read it as one that advocated the elimination of any group.

Katlaughing - in retrospect it should have been modified. That is why I thought it should have been removed after I read Carol's post. Two views here and I stuck myself in the middle.

DougR - When people talk about Veterans in the way he did - I remember being asked to leave places because I had been in the military and was fresh back from Viet Nam. I remember the names we were called. I get enraged. It hurts like hell.

I disagree with war - I wish there were some other way - but I refuse to compromise on how we treat those who serve in our stead. It's kind of like the anti-war vs. peace thread. It's like those who have helped the Muslims in this country to be safe from racists by being with them and dressing in a similar manner to protect these innocents. Have any view you want on the war - but be careful not to blame the troops for the problem. That is a political issue that needs to be tasked.

Steve

I do feel a bit better that I was not the only one who saw the story as a story of hope and not one of brutal racism.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:41 PM

Steve, based on previous posts of yours, I think I would have seen your little vignette in the way you intended it. But it came right after the post in which you were angry with Fionn. So I thought you might be writing the vignette in anger as well. Maybe, if you want to use that story in the future, all you need to do is add a little disclaimer saying that this is your dream for the future of a unified and racist free humanity.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:51 PM

The rest of the world, and some in the US don't have any realistic alternatives to bombing terrorist targets, either. The alternative would be reasoned talk, and how do you do that with a man who kills thousands of people simply to get noticed? A man who wants to simply kill Americans and encourages others to do so? We had to do something. If you have ideas on what we should do, that would also have a high probability of effectiveness, go ahead and share.

If anyone thinks your country's government is better than the government of the US, what would they do in the same circumstance?

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:52 PM

Ah Carol - Have I Thanked You for the Thank you for your service note? If not Thank you -

I wish I had your patience and clarity -

My Janet is that way - always thinks before she speaks - always clear - always gentle -

Steve

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 04:09 PM

Well, Steve, you're welcome and thank you. And I'm glad you have someone like your Janet in your life.

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 05:45 PM

Petr - I agree that economic globalism is, in the strictly political sense, "democratic". The question is, though, is it sane?

I don't think so. You can see the damage mounting all around you, even in your own town, year by year...damage to culture, society, health and environment.

It's entirely possible to democratically convince any population of something that is still self-defeating, blind, and wrong. God knows, it's been done over and over again throughout history, long before the consumer society came along. It's done through propaganda, advertising, and appealing to people's lowest and most primitive instincts (fear, greed, prejudice, and immediate gain). That's how elections are won too...in democracies like the USA and Canada.

Populations are generally disabused of this common propaganda only when it leads to a debacle that makes them completely lose confidence in it. As long as they remain personally comfortable, the majority will support any kind of nonsensical program that's handed down to them from on high by their leaders. It's when that program blows up in their faces that they change their minds.

I believe that until all people get a basically equal start in life in all parts of the world, we will continue to have great injustice, and all the troubles that stem from it. That's why I can't look at a situation from the point of view of just one country. We are either all human...or we're not. If we are all human, then we all would benefit from starting out on an equal playing field.

This requires worldwide peaceful programs and solutions, not military conflicts. It requires a world Bill of Rights, and a world Justice system. When will it come? Probably not in our lifetimes, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth aspiring toward.

- LH

Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 05:53 PM

You are correct Little Hawk. But how would we deal with "World Government?" Scares more people than terrorists.

Steve