The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 11:47 AM

For most publicans, alcoholics are a net loss. Serve somebody nine pints in an evening and you've got a smelly heap of obnoxiousness that will put off more than nine one-pint customers.

There's one Edinburgh folk bar that used to have a more tolerant attitude to self-destructive drinking than others. I found it horribly depressing to go in there and watch people slowly killing themselves. I do occasionally go in it now, since they've cleaned their act up a bit.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 12:07 PM

I see some posts about 'elites'...hmmm .."Elitist, Folkies"??? Isn't that sort of a contradiction in terms?

GfS

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 12:18 PM

I don't drink beer but I love folk music.

The problem with getting out in front of a parade is that you never know who you are leading up "San Juan Hill".

Folk music has always and will continue to be free as long as it is practiced off the stage and media as well.

"Populist" gatherings can be phony. Consider the "Tea Party" in the US.

Conrad says: "This means proper food and proper consumption of alcohol which is necessary to awaken the muse."

The muse has little to do with alcohol and is also sometimes an impediment.
As to proper food, the jury is out on that one big time.

The working-class in the UK is different then the one here in the States. I hate to admit it but UK working-class is generally better informed. Even so, there is a tendency to glorify
"the people" in a Rousseauian manner that borders on pretension.

Essentially to try to force folk music down anyone's throat is self-defeating. Taking over malls or stadiums won't work because other people have taste and money that they want to spend for entertainment. There are those who would be bored with folk music that was limited and relegated to what the general consensus of what folk music is.

As to a socialist approach to making music, I am not opposed to this idea. It will not come from conservative Republicans however as much as they try to hide behind the mask of "the people". A socialist approach would be to share expenses as well as any profits that can be taken by such a gathering. I think that from what I've read and heard,
the pub in the UK serves this function in a way. It allows singers and musicians to gather for sessions on their own terms, at least that was my experience in Ireland.

Somebody has to spend money to make what Conrad suggests happen. In this way,
there is no "free" music as there is no "free market". An instrument has to be paid for as well as a facility to make music happen.

I would love to see another folk music revival wherein people would take up instruments and sing the old songs. This isn't going to happen because there are so many diversified tastes today. Being autocratic as to what people want to hear won't work.

Sorry to have to rain on your parade, Conrad. I share your enthusiasm for folk music, though.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:22 PM

If you go to an event in a bar then you're expected to buy a drink, I agree. If someone can't afford the cask beers at the Wharf Rat (mostly around $5 a pint) they can get a Bud or Coors or something similar for $3.50. I should have thought that most people could afford $3.50 once a fortnight to enjoy folk music - if they can't that's too bad, but then they've probably got more important things to worry about.

Conrad, your difficulty is not with the prices, its the amount you expect to consume. Even in the cheap bars you're so keen on you must be spending between $10 and $20 in an evening on beer. For that, you could go to the music session and have three or four pints, which most people could get by on, and maybe at that modest level of consumption you'll find that cask beers won't make you ill. But you're not really interested in music, are you, otherwise you'd do that, or else you'd start up these sessions and festivals you're so keen to encourage others to do for you.

As for me, I enjoy a few beers but when I go out to play music at my local session I never have more than a pint and a half, since I'm driving. Of course, those are proper-sized pints, not the puny measures you have there. If I'm gigging I often have only water, as I don't want to doze off while driving home at 2am.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:33 PM

Actually, looking again at the Wharf Rat's website, it appears the shanty session (which I assume is the folk session Conrad refers to) is only once a month, not every fortnight.

Come on Conrad, can't you manage just one night a month without the beer?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 03:19 PM

Conrad.
It seems to me from (albeit) many thousands of miles away, that you are a very unpleasant person.
Your concept of "Free Music" has been shot down in flames by the very people that you accuse of not providing it.....
Even when, that is what they are doing every day!
Please, Go away. The good people of Baltimore have already told you to do so, and I would urge you to do the same here. We're not interested in your peculiar hippy philosophy. We live in the real world.
I will carry on making the music that I love.
I find it incomprensible that you would ever appreciate it.
Probably because you would be too drunk.
So, do us all a favour....Bog Off.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:22 PM

" . . . am not advocating no profit just fair profit. The landlord would do very well with greater volume."

Conrad, if a particular establishment that offers folk music as entertainment is already FULL, as most of the places I know of generally are (often with people lined up outside waiting to get in), how are you going to attract greater volume, even by lowering prices? It would just increase the line of people waiting outside, and what good is that?

If you think it through, Conrad, an increased volume is a strong incentive for the landlord to raise his prices! And other than being good enough so that lots of people want to hear them, a singer can't do much about that, no matter how much he or she is being paid by the landlord.

" How can you say you wish to expand folk music when you dont take steps to make that happen.[?]"

WHO doesn't take steps, Conrad? Stringsinger, just above, was one of those who established the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago. I have met quite a number of people who learned their first songs and learned to play guitar or banjo from him. I have seen some of the material and the song sheets that were passed out in his classes, and it's good stuff!

I first started teaching guitar (both folk and classical) in the late 1950s, and in 1960, I began teaching folk guitar classes, first at the University YM/YWCA, then the downtown Seattle YWCA (open to both men and women), and was then asked to teach classes at the Creative Arts League in Kirkland, across Lake Washington from Seattle. Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday evenings, I taught folk guitar classes, on Thursday, Friday and Saturday evenings, I usually sang in one coffeehouse or another, and during the day I gave private guitar lessons, either classical or folk. There are literally dozens of people who started learning guitar in my classes or private lessons who went on to sing and play professionally, and hundreds who play and sing just because they enjoy it, and a fair number who went on to teach others themselves!

I would not compare the length of my reach and my influence with Stringsinger's by any means, but there are many (Barry Olivier in Berkeley, Bess Lomax Hawes in Los Angerles, to name only two) who have done what Frank and I have (and from whom he and I have learned).

Beyond bitching and complaining about the price of "bier," Conrad, what have YOU ever done!??

One of the reasons that I feel I was particularly lucky was that the main outlets for folk music here in Seattle, and throughout most of the country, and the main opportunity for people like me to sing in the late Fifties and through the Sixties was the springing up of coffeehouses. The coffeehouse where I did most of my singing was called "The Place Next Door." It was next door to the Guild 45th Theater, where they showed European movies and art films, and both The Place and the theater were owned by the same man. The clientele consisted of folk music aficionados, large numbers of college students from the University of Washington, Seattle University, and Seattle Pacific University. It also attracted audiences from the theater next door who dropped in after a movie, and on week ends, toward the end of the evening, it was not unusual to see a few people in formal gowns and tuxedos who were dropping in after attending an opera, play, or symphony concert.

The audiences were SOBER. And they came in to have some refreshments (specialty coffees and teas of various kinds, some fairly exotic, chocolate drinks, some light snacks, and a selection of very nice pastries) and LISTEN to some ballads and folk songs.

Bob Weymouth, whom I mentioned way above, sang in a posh cocktail lounge in downtown Seattle, and although at Clark's Red Carpet he was being paid five times what I was making at The Place Next Door, he envied me because I was able to sing for audiences who had come to listen and not just get soused! And one of the by-products of singing in an establishment like The Place Next Door was that I often got singing jobs from people who heard me there. Concerts, private parties, other out-of-town coffeehouses, various clubs and organizations, a couple of arts festivals. . . .

Conrad, if you need alcohol to awaken your "muse," then obviously you have a much greater problem than you realize. It sounds like you just what to listen to folk singers while you sit there and get bleary-eyed, falling down, barfing, s**t-faced DRUNK!

Conrad, I DON'T WANT people like YOU in my audiences!

(If that makes me "elitist," I think I can live with that.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:44 PM

Don.
From a long long way away....Well said.
Ralphie (in London Town)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM

Iam never ever intoxicated.Stop attacking the messenger! So you have trouble thinking of a response then maybe you need a drink!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:34 PM

Ok then read Ben Jonson on the muse and driniking. Easy

If you dont understand the folk lifeway then go into rock and roll.
We are different.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM

Messenger???........................LMAO...................Messenger???? Of What???? Gimmee a fuckin' break Corny......Messenger?.........Yeah, Right........the only thing you send out is body odor...........and rest assured, you are a friggin' drunk! Messenger my ass...............Delusions run rampant in the vast wasteland of your brain...........



Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM

hey howard even the cheap biers are much more expensive than the going price in the many fine corner bars of baltimore- your and your elitist crew need to shop around.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:40 PM

Conrad, if you can honestly down a gallon of beer without getting plastered you've got a problem. That's genuine concern, by the way, not an 'attack'. I've had some experience of it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:40 PM

No one has to spend money if everyone is dedicated to the music. Once a year evryone gives whats the big problem?>

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:49 PM

hey don there is no defense for keeping prices high. Folk music is for everyone more than every other genre. It is special. It is for peasants nto for your elitist bozos that you seem to excuse.

Simple....cheap eats and drinks then maximum audience. What can't you see as truth in that.

You are simply an elitist! Expand folk music or keep doing as you are.
Ration it to only the good people.

I just wish you could sit down with the rustics who preserved the music several hundred years ago. You would probably have to leave immediately.


So lets move on. Why not keep the costs down. Why keep up any barier any time any where. Seems simple to me.

Or you can continue with the small elitist world that keeps bringing your money in and take baths.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:07 PM

Just as a matter of interest, how strong is the beer over there?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM

Not as strong as Conrad's armpits but then again..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:16 PM

I suppose one builds up an immunity.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:25 PM

Conrad, it's obvious from your tantrums that you haven't paid attention to ANYTHING anyone has said. Maybe it's because your beer-sodden brain is incapable of grasping simple, plain English.

I'll match what I've done over the years to "expand" folk music to any FORTY people like you.

You think I haven't heard the kind of crap you're peddling before? There's always some know-nothing ding-a-ling out there who doesn't have a clue who is hell-bent on trying to tell people who've been promoting and performing folk music all their lives, trying to tell them that they're doing it all wrong.

Nobody's "killing the messenger." The "messenger" in this case has no message of any value to deliver.

Let's face it, Conrad. You are a whining free-loader. And a waste of lard!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:54 PM

There should be medals for insults of that calibre.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:21 AM

"If you dont understand the folk lifeway then go into rock and roll."

The "folk lifeway" and the "folk experience" that you refer to is nothing more than some vague "noble savage" bit of fantasy about which you have nothing more than a foggy, ill-defined concept, Conrad. And if you have a degree in Anthropology, you must have got it out of a box of Crackerjack. If you DID know anything about Anthropology, you wouldn't keep making the dumb statements you keep making.

You've already been told, again and again, that there are folk festivals all over the country that are free of charge to the public and for which the singers donate their time and talent. And yet, you continue to whine and complain as if this were not the case at all.

Well, if it isn't true in the area where you live, Conrad, that's not OUR fault. And you've already been told, many times by many knowledgeable people here, what to do about it. One more time:

Get up off your lazy ass and organize one. Like WE did!!

But you won't get very far if you aren't a whole lot more polite and diplomatic. In this forum, you have been rude and insulting to, and contemptuous of, the very people who have done, and are continuing to do, more to preserve and promote an appreciation of folk music than you will ever understand. And whom, IF you are REALLY SERIOUS, you are going to NEED in order to bring such festivals about.

"We are different."

You're darned right we're different, Conrad. And thank God for that!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:51 AM

Here's PROOF, Conrad.

CLICKY.

Note the last line in curmudgeon's post. "FREE."

So! Stop whimpering and GET BUSY!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:53 AM

OHMYGAWD!!!!!! Don did you see how those ripoff artists at the press room are serving overpriced crap? I tell ya' the day I pay NINE bucks for a Black and Bleu Burger with some fries will be..............let's see here..............I think it was Tuesday before last............Anyway, they don't get it. Even if all the other crap is free there is no mention of free food or any hedges to shit in!!!


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:00 AM

Don't worry about hedges, Spaw.
Now that I've found out how much money there is to be made at those things, I'm working on getting set up as a Hedge Vendor so I can spend time at the pool and sneer at Ordinary People.

Gosh, that's going to be great!
I'm sure looking forward to getting my costume together and hitting the circuit..and getting rich.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:39 AM

Conrad, are you totally incapable of understanding that what attracts people to a music event is the quality of the music? Beer and food are secondary considerations. Certainly it's important that the venue serves good quality beer, but the price of it is not generally an issue - if people find it too expensive they buy less of it. I've never come across anyone, apart from you, who would refuse to attend an event because of the price of the beer.

As for being elitist, folk music is one of the least elitist activities I know. Whilst it may be true that the majority of folkies today are middle-class and well-educated, there are no barriers and I know people in the folk world who come from all backgrounds.

It is also one of the cheapest forms of entertainment, the price of beer notwithstanding - many events are free, and you can buy a ticket to a weekend festival for less than it costs to attend a 90-minute football (ie soccer) match - as hundreds of thousands of working-class people can afford go to football every weekend, paying far more than they would at the most expensive folk venue, it is clearly not cost which is keeping them away from folk events. The only person who finds it an obstacle is you, and that's because you insist on consuming large quantities of food and beer.

It's also true that the folk world can sometimes appear a bit cliquey. However that's unintentional, and simply arises because it's a small community where a lot of people have known one another for years, and one where amateurs can mingle freely and play alongside internationally recognised performers. If you feel excluded, it's either because you haven't made the effort, or more likely the local folk community doesn't want a self-opinionated boozer who when he's not stuffing his face is constantly whingeing about the way they run things but is too lazy to do anything about it.

As it happens, I have been privileged to sit alongside some of the "rustics" who preserved the music well into the 20th Century - people like Fred Jordan, Walter Pardon, Bob Roberts and Oscar Woods, for example. Not only were they wonderful performers, they were unfailingly courteous and welcoming to anyone who appreciated their music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:02 AM

And I thought WAV was obtuse....Obviously he's a lightweight in comparison.
Have to hand it to you Yanks...You do everything bigger and better...That includes Numbskulls!
So glad he lives over there!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:39 AM

"Simple....cheap eats and drinks then maximum audience. What can't you see as truth in that."

I know it's been said by others in various formats, but I just find that comment so mind bogglingly back to front. When I choose to go to events it's because the music attracts me ... food and booze usually have nothing whatsoever to do with it. And I'm pretty damned sure that I'm not alone in that. The catering facilities are usually something I put up with, no matter what their quality. There's one venue locally that usually has no food available after 5pm, and a limited bar service (which I don't usually use) ... but the concerts feature first class musicians. The lack of catering facilities doesn't put me off.

"I just wish you could sit down with the rustics who preserved the music several hundred years ago. You would probably have to leave immediately."

And they would probably have been singing during their work (no food or drink involved), at home, or indeed in the pub. But I don't think that they would have been so centred on the necessity of food and drink to make it an enjoyable experience.

Can we get back to discussing music?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:13 AM

If food and drink dont matter why are musical events held in bars in the first place

It is a total experience.

The reason the community is middle class is because only they can afford to attend.

If the community is to grow it needs to have as few barriers as possible. If I can find a barrier it has to be removed. Easy to see that the cost of food and drink are barriers. In my area music is found in only expensive places. There are perfectly good cheap places so why not make the change to places that are most affordable?

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:25 AM

The reason no one wants to make the change is that they're happy with things as they are. No one else, apart from you, believes there is a problem. It's pointless you demanding that they change things - they don't see a need to.

Since you do see a need, the answer is simple - organise your own folk event in one of these cheap bars. If your theory is right, and you've spotted a gap in the market, then you'll attract an audience. Competition - that's the American Way. However cheap beer and food are not enough on their own, you also have to put on good-quality music.

This has been suggested to you repeatedly throughout this thread, and you've pointedly refused to address it. So let me ask you a direct question: if you're unhappy with the way things are run, why don't YOU do something about it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:33 PM

"I complain, therefore I am."

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:31 PM

Again....for those who keep forgetting

I run several events each year.

Guy Fawkes Day November 5 (this year on the 6th) great music, bonfire, fireworks, beer, food. Extremely well researched and traditional. We generally have 125 folks and growing (this year once again a free keg of craft nut brown ale was donated by a major micro brewery!)

Wassail- growing now about 5th year. Music, food, meat pies, wassail in several forms and smoking bishop, plum cakes. Again well researched very authentic. This year we will get out our new horse skull mari lwyd
and our bull skull christmas bull and do the related rituals. Last time we had about 30 and growing.

May Morning- We started this about 3 years ago always on the 1st of may. We have green man, green bike, jack in the green, traditional flowers, food and drink we had around ten but this is new.

All of these are free and open to the public. Always lots of donated music food and drink. Stop in all welcome.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:39 PM

Yes I am aware of the Mary England concept and the oft exaggeration of peasant ways.

I have also studied the folk music of the NE england specifically Newcastle upon Tyne in great depth.

Yes folk music exaggerates however, the topic has been well discussed and the consensus is that the level of moderation upheld in 17th and 19th century Newcastle was significantly higher than it is in most american urban centers today. There is much historical news reporting of the various huge street celebrations from local papers as well as personal accounts.

On the more formal social side from England see-

Excess and the Mean in Early Modern English Literature
Joshua Scodel
Princeton 2002

This is a great source.

The concept of american puritanical minimal or no drinking is very recent development and has nothing to do with proper folk practice.

Having only minimal drink is a halmark of the american Yuppie elitist.

Remember, if they are not spending an excessive amount of money the world is not right. So we all suffer as prices rise to their ability to pay not ours.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM

"If food and drink dont matter why are musical events held in bars in the first place"

Once again, O-ye-who-is-so-slow-to-grasp-simple-concepts, not all musical events are held in bars. Some are. Many, many are not.

And you do not need a big folk festival with hundreds of singers and thousands of audience members to have a "folk experience." In fact, that's not a "folk experience" at all!

There is no law that prevents YOU from calling some singers and musicians you know (provided you haven't alienated them all) and inviting them to your home for an evening of relaxed and informal singing in your living room.

Now, a good host will usually provide a supply of beer and/or wine (doesn't have to be high-priced vintage stuff, screw-top will do as long as it's halfway palatable). But I suppose that's out for you. If you don't want to shuck out a few bucks for a beer or two for yourself, I doubt you are willing to provide beverages and comestibles for others, heaven forbid! But you could always declare it BYOB. Most of the hoots I've been to were on that basis. After all, the host or hostess was already contributing the use of their house.

Around here, during the late Fifties and though the late Sixties there was a hoot somewhere almost every weekend, although many singers such as Bob and Judy and Alice and Patti and Mike and Jon and Nancy, et al were usually singing someplace, such as in a coffeehouse—and getting paid for it. But that didn't mean that the quality of the singing at the hoots wasn't excellent.

Early on, I learned many songs and was able to hone my performance skills at hoots. In fact, it was at a hoot that Jim Gilkeson, who was responsible for putting together music programs for KCTS-TV (educational channel), heard me sing, then asked me to do the "Ballads and Books" television series in 1959.

Bob Nelson held a big hoot in his back yard a couple of weeks ago. It ran all day long and into the evening. Pot luck barbeque. Great singing! Stewart holds a song fest at his house regularly every couple of weeks. Informal, no admission charge.

Conrad, for a "visionary artist," you are certainly lacking in vision. If you want to enjoy a "folk experience" and hear a lot of music, you don't need to rearrange the entire universe. The one that exists works just fine, thank you, and has been for decades now. All you need to do is shove a sock in your mouth to keep you from alienating the musicians around you by criticizing them, insulting them, calling them "elitist" because some of them earn a buck or two with their singing, and telling everybody they're doing it all wrong. Shut up, sit back, listen, and enjoy.

It's as simple as that.

Don Firth

P. S. "The concept of american puritanical minimal or no drinking is very recent development and has nothing to do with proper folk practice.

"Having only minimal drink is a halmark of the american Yuppie elitist."

That sounds to me like the feeble excuse of someone who is having a bit of an alcohol problem.

"Proper folk practice?" REALLY!! And who made you Lord God of what constitutes "proper folk practice?"

(Pompous ass!!!)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:34 PM

I'm afraid I've read Conrad's post of 01:39 at least half a dozen times and I'm no nearer understanding what he's trying to say. However I think he's saying that the reason he drinks 9 pints a night isn't because he's a piss-artist, it's because it's somehow "traditional" and it's therefore his duty.

It's not your eating and drinking that I disagree with. I can't imagine it's doing you much good, but I'm not your doctor, it's none of my business. I do disagree with your idea that people's appreciation of folk music is governed by how much the venue charges for beer.

People will go to listen to good music even in expensive venues. They won't go to cheap venues just to listen to crap music. It's the music that counts. I really don't believe that anyone who's not actually living on the streets is so hard up that the are put off attending a folk event by the price of the beer.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:40 PM

Conrad, my question about your liver was not entirely flippant. Drinking the amount you claim to do puts your liver in serious danger of damage. However, that's your choice.

My brother-in-law died of liver failure at the untimely age of 47 as a consequence of excess alcohol. Prior to that he gave my sister and her daughter a miserable time. Excess drinking is a serious problem and we have too much of it here in the UK.

Moderate drinking: fine, but beware.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:48 PM

I thought this discussion was going to about ALAN Freed...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:01 PM

Conrad.
I donany't think anyone has actually asked this question.
So, I will.
Do ymou sing?
Do you play a musical instrument?
How many paid gigs have you done in the past year?
Thought so....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:07 PM

Conrad, I wasn't aware of those events you mentioned. They look good fun. But with the largest attendance in the region of 125 they're hardly in the same league as folk festivals, which I (and I'm sure I'm not alone) think of as larger events attracting maybe thousands of people.

I'm sure it's perfectly possible to hold what is really no more than a large party with donated food and drink, and to get some musicians along to play. I'm sure everyone has a great time. However you cannot scale something like that up to a full-size festival and expect to run it on the same basis.

To take a single example, do you have public liability insurance in case someone falls into your Guy Fawkes bonfire? Did you manage to find an insurance company to donate that?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:12 PM

There was a guy who used to come to the hoots, usually fairly late, after the taverns (pubs) closed. He was generally already pretty well lubricated when he got there. But as we were swapping songs and such, he would sit there in the middle of the floor and drink one beer after another—and fart! Generally before we adjourned, a couple of guys would have to pick him up and practically carry him to the bathroom before he up-chucked on the living room carpet.

Because of him, we had to start keeping the location of the hoots a secret.

I guess that made us "elitest."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:54 PM

Any time that music happens in a place of business there needs to be sufficient money changing hands. I won't play for free for someone who is making money from my performance. They won't pay me unless they are making money in some way. The idea of turning the bar scene into a socialist experiment is doomed to failure. Why would the bar owners agree to that? Why would I?

I am an extremely occasional drinker and I'm not an elitist. I don't play in taverns anymore because when people get drunk they get loud, rude, and inattentive. Been there and done that way too much. That doesn't make me an elitist, either. If there's an elitist here, it's the person who is accusing others of being failures because they don't live up to his ideas of how they ought to live.

I play a fair number of free gigs every year, almost always in the service of helping a venue get off the ground or to help spread folk music in some other way. I play at a lot of traditional folk dances that pay very minimally or not at all. Also, the only relation between performance and folk music is the repertoire. When I perform, I act like a professional, play carefully arranged music, and put on a show for an audience. There is nothing particularly (or specifically) "folky" about that. The times that I feel like I'm playing folk music in a folky way is when I'm just sitting around with friends playing old music. There is a dance we play at from time to time where there is no stage and no amplification. We just stand in the middle of the floor and everyone dances around us. It's lots of fun and feels very folky. Of course, the organization that puts on the dance still has to rent a hall, put out advertising, pay the bills, have a website, etc. Not unlike any other human endeavor in a society where things cost money.

I love the idea of free folk music, and engage in it often, at home, at friends houses, and out in public. Expecting it to happen in a place where someone is trying to earn a living is clueless.

Saying that food and drink are an integral part of the folk music experience is just plain wrong, in that I live most of my life in the folk music experience and there is no connection between music and drink in my mind. Put another way, I AM the folk music experience and drink is emphatically not part of it.

John

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 04:37 PM

I have also studied the folk music of the NE england specifically Newcastle upon Tyne in great depth.

I'm happy to report that Traditional Inebriated Ritual / Ceremonial Folk Life in Canny Newcassel continues to this day with the bold lads & lasses of Sandgate & the Bigg Market as wild as ever. Of course such Folk Life has precious little to do with Folk as we understand the term as used by Conrad, which is an elitist yuppie bourgeois middle-class construct and has little to do with the Real Folk / Geordie Urban Proletariat who continue to celebrate on the streets and to whom the very concept of Folk Music, FREED or otherwise, is, anathema.

For more, see HERE - or do a YouTube search for Bigg Market.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM

Yes of course- music can happen any where not just bars.

Problem is why should it be in expensive places?

Yes if you bring down the price of beer those who wish to will consume more and more patrons/audience will choose to attend and the landlord will do quite a bit better via increased volume. The more audience the better for the musician.

I can not possibly buy the detachment of music from food and drink as it just never was the case granted one can have a dry and foodless performance and that was done too but public playing was generally not in dry and foodless settings. And although I call it moderation the level of moderation was set significantly higher in the past.

My liver is just fine. I go to the doctor regularly and reserve drinking in quantity for special events.

You dont need organizations, halls or anything else.....

Yes people who eat and drink free their muses and get a bit loud.

I am reminded of Paddy Maloney of the Chieftains who I have met on several occasions and have talked with of the nature of the musical experience in depth.

He said that his main problem with US audiences was that they did not get up and dance, clap, make noise when he played energetic music designed to be accompanied by such. Even though he would at times send dancers into the isles the audience just sat there studying in an academic sense quiet unmoved. He believed that to be a sign of the detachment of the folk experience from the people.

For many limiting consumption of alcohol to extremely low levels is taken as a badge of saintliness- look at me I just had one. This is in effect elitist and stifles the folk environment.

Paying too much above market price is not just limiting it is stupid.

Yes I play bones, tin Whistle, brass instruments, currently alto horn.
Yes I have played professionally, I have managed large folk festival stages, I am a folklorist specializing in the Music of the North East, Ireland, Orange Order/unionist music and currently Bavarian Oktoberfest songs (I published the only complete songbook of these)

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM

One important point about freed music.

The music community should not be judgmental in regard to life way choices.

One can see right here in this thread how I was attacked by many just for my own well refined, beer drinking customs. This should never happen as it discourages participation in folk events. Same with politics. I am very convinced that liberal politics drives many away as does the healthy living and vegetarian kicks.

At the Baltimore Folk song and dance society I attended weekly dances at a local church. People were not dancing and eating and socializing they were doing a gym workout that used dance! Who ever heard of the folk dancing for fitness wearing headbands, sweat suits and tennis shoes!
Who would really want to come to such an event? This happens when extreme people wishing to edit the tradition get in charge.

Additionally when the refreshments came out....I anticipated the scones, breads, jams cheeses of the tradition. No not for them - they had modified the tradition to only include fruit juices, carrots and great healthy food. Not a grain of sugar anywhere.

This is butchering a tradition that has held together for centuries and I did not return after the few that I attended. They only want the good people.

The point is to free music of censorial adaptation and try to make it accessible to the greatest number.

To liberate the muse is not to engage in drunkenness. Ben Johnson is clear on this. One should never leave any gathering with reputation tarnished but that does not mean that a very high, In our contemporary standard, consumption of alcohol was not the norm as it was. Strong "hot" wines- Johnson preferred canary.

Loosen up. Get folked. Do it right.

Doesnt mean you have to do this but you should not discourage others who wish to do it right.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Chris Green
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM

Conrad, you are truly a national treasure. I haven't laughed this hard in ages. Thank you! :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:56 PM

You dont need organizations, halls or anything else....

What, shall we just take over the street any time we want to dance? What shall we say to the police when they tell us we have to stop?
How will everyone know when and where they should turn up?
It rains most of the time here in Seattle. Dancing in a downpour is not a lot of fun.
Most people like some sort of dance floor.

Yes people who eat and drink free their muses and get a bit loud.

Most people would say that someone who needs drink to activate their muse is an alcoholic. Loud is just loud, and I'm not interested.

I can not possibly buy the detachment of music from food and drink as it just never was the case granted one can have a dry and foodless performance and that was done too but public playing was generally not in dry and foodless settings.

Utter bullshit. Support your statements or shut up. Besides, I'm not particularly interested in the history of this. That's for academics, not folk musicians.

Problem is why should it be in expensive places?

Expensive is a very subjective term. Problem is that you apparently don't have a job, so you are out of sync with your community. Try joining your community by being gainfully employed before you start railing at it about the price of beer.

For many limiting consumption of alcohol to extremely low levels is taken as a badge of saintliness- look at me I just had one. This is in effect elitist and stifles the folk environment.

How can I respond to this other than by saying: You arrogant twit? I don't take my low level of alcoholic consumption to be a sign of saintliness. It's just how I live. You are accusing me of stifling the folk environment because I don't drink a lot. Arrogant twit doesn't really cover it. Asshole works better.

John

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Skivee
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

"Iam never ever intoxicated. Stop attacking the messenger"
Conrad, I have seen you drunk at several festivals. I've seen you drunkenly interupting performers on stage shouting out demands for your favorite songs...that had nothing in common with the performer's repetoire. One of the performers you did this to was me.
I've seen you invite yourself to a private party after a festival. At that party, you repeatedly interupted invited guests mis-song to squeak out unrecognizable tunes on a penny whistle. When asked, you admitted that you had no idea what tune *YOU* were tooting out. You were just making noise to screw with the folks who'd been asked to sing songs for our hosts.

I've seen you come breath-takingly close to running over festival participants by driving your truck down a crowded access road at 50mph just after closing. Venders were in the process of tearing down their displays and packing up. People were quite literally jumping out of your way to save their lives. You were gunning it so hard that you were throwing gravel behind you skidding. Make no mistake. You nearly killed people that day.

This was at a fest where you had volunteered to be a stage announcer.
You talked about your personal "potato Famine" fetish for 15 minutes into a Welsh choir's 1/2 hour set, then cut them off after they'd done 15 minutes because you "had to keep the stage on schedule." There's a reason that you aren't asked to announce at many festivals in the area anymore.
I could share other stories of your drunken self-serving inappropirateness, but I doubt you even remember these few that I've related.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:32 PM

Aha.. suspicions confirmed?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:45 PM

Bless you Skivee........THAT is the Conrad we all knew was in there!

LMAO......Actually there is little to find funny in that behavior but.............What say Ye Cornhole????


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:55 PM

I'm so glad that Conrad lives in America.
He wouldn't survive 2 minutes in England.
So, just keep him on your side of the pond.
We've got enough nutters of our own. without thinking about importing foreigners.
FREED folkmusic......? Pah!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:08 PM

The more audience the better for the musician.

That depends entirely on the audience.