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The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:20 AM Right, Ralphie. There was a lot of that going around. An American composer named Roy Harris wrote a fair number of symphonies and other works making use of folk music and folk themes. Lots of others. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:44 AM I just had a stroke of genius!! You know how, when someone is standing on the seventh floor ledge of a building, a huge crowd will gather to see if they're going to jump? And how people stop and gawk at an automobile accident? And if you knew in advance of the time and location of a massive train wreck, you could build a grandstand on both sides of the tracks and pack them with people? How about THIS: Let's get Conrad with his penny whistle and Wavey Davey with his "English flute" (German-made alto recorder) together for a joint concert!!! A catastrophe like that is absolutely guaranteed to draw a huge crowd! Of course, there are certain logistical problems that would have to be addressed. I'm sure the English would not be happy if Conrad went there, and we certainly don't want Wavey Davey over here. I might suggest that we have the concert in some remote location, such as an island in the South Pacific. And we can have the concert telecast world-wide over a pay television channel. We could make fortune for setting this up, along with paying both Conrad and Wavey Davey a fortune. You know, somehow I don't think either of them would refuse the money. Wavey Davey could get himself a small island off the coast of England and set up his own empire, populating it with only people who are Pure English (?), forbidding immigration of anyone without the proper English pedigree. And Conrad could easily afford to build a swimming pool in his back yard (after clearing away all the junk first) and fill it with beer! I even thought of the perfect place to hold the concert. It's been used for this sort of pre-planned catastophic event before. Bikini Atoll. Is that brilliant, or what!?? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ralphie Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:47 AM Thanks for that Don. I must have missed Mr Harris. Will check him out Cheers! (BTW Do you think Conrad has the foggiest idea what we are talking about?...No, Didn't think so!) All these freeloading classical composers, nicking the tunes and songs of the downtrodden poor, just to make a quick buck....Bastards all of them. If it hadn't been for hearing a recording of Peter Warlocks Capriol Suite in the late 50's I wouldn't have discovered French dance music! Oh...And I just noticed I got 600! Never managed that before!! How on earth did this thread get that big? Conrad must be very popular over there...Tickets on E Bay for his gigs, at silly prices obviously! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:29 AM A point of pure pedantry on the subject of WAV's English Flute - it is a Plastic Tenor made in Japan. It was the saintly Mr Firth who came up with the term Engrish Frute to describe this instrument though WAV generally attributes it to me (saying it is more racially offensive than claiming England was more English 50 years ago) but let's be fair here. Also on a point of fairness, apart from his published (& entirely mistaken) misgivings on the nature of English Culture (see the Re. Dynamics thread for the lastest WAVlaw in the making) WAV isn't in the least bit offensive in person. He made a valid & welcome contribution to my Ballad Session in Durham back in July (the Dun Cow on Old Elvet if you must know, Conrad; free to get in but the beer was knocking on £2.50 a pint) and is always smartly turned out, polite and moderate in his habits. Moderation is not a word that could be used with respect of Conrad's particular brand of self-promotion. Indeed, it would be interesting to know what WAV makes of his indiscriminate plundering of the folklore of alien cultures (much less belonging to a German Church). Whilst I might wince at certain aspects of it, I nevertheless acknowledge that even on Native Soil the condition of such folklore is wobbly revivalism to say the least - and, as I say, even back in the day Crawhall's Beuk o' Newcassel Sangs (1888) was a bit of wanton Novocastrian pastiche. But even so I find Conrad's Webpages in this respect (replete with naff graphics, midi musical snatches, and animated figures) offensive to my native-born Geordie soul - and, let's face it, to a more modest aesthetic sensibility as befits the material. The German Church I have no problem with whatsoever, acknowledging the rich cultural mix that is America - nor would I have a problem if Max Hunter had turned up some genuine Northumbrian Folk Songs during his travels in the Ozarks, but I would urge a little more discretion in dealing with the cultural treasures & traditions of other lands. Moderation is the key here; moderation in all things - and respect, where respect is undoubtedly due. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:49 AM Ya' know............WavyFWBR and Cornhole are the same but different and I finally see they are the Yin and Yang of Mudcat. This is what creates the major problem in arranging a trade..........Suib, I want to thank you for helping me see the light! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Melissa Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:56 AM One gets drunk and drives. The other travels on a shoestring. I'm not sure it's nice to talk about WAV in this thread, but a trade sounds good to me. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 19 Sep 10 - 08:06 AM If someone literally can't afford the price of a single beer then agree they might be excluded. However I doubt there are many in either the US or the UK for whom this is true. Even the down-and-outs seem to be able to afford alcohol. I am currently unemployed. I'm living off my savings, which are going down fast. My only earned income comes from the occasional music gig, but this is not enough to live on, and besides there are expenses to pay which cancel out most of this - even the taxman recognises this. Last week I had a "folk experience" in a nearby pub, playing music in a session. Entry was free, and I spent less than £4 on drinks (beer prices are around average for the area). That strikes me as pretty good value for a full evening of music and good company. If I were really counting the pennies I could have emulated Flora Thompson's villagers and made a half-pint (just over £1) last the evening - now that would have been "authentic". |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 19 Sep 10 - 08:23 AM most important too broad....very important was intended sorry for the confusion but you guys will shoot at anything I am glad that someone can find a place where there is free music and average beer prices. The people I know of here and I know most of them always play in expensive yuppie places where the deal is how much can I pay for that beer..... Been in the dun cow many times- does it still have its amazing beer pump? Might pay just a bit more just to see that operate. Yesterday I was brought with artcar to the H. street festival in DC. I was only given a donation to cover the gas. Across the street the local german beer garden was selling cups mind you not pints for $5.00- lots of people could not afford that. Yes we must remember that especially in the Jazz and Blues traditions ordinary low income folks made the music happen and today they could not purchase even one beer. There are many homeless and unemployed who have to watch their spending. It is tragic that those who think anyone can come in and have a good time seem to have important positions in the folk music community. The poor people are the ones that need the music more than anyone. And yes I know that there are concerts that are free. However, look behind most of them and you will find a public grant that would be best put toward feeding people. Most if not all of these are not truly benefits at all. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 19 Sep 10 - 09:04 AM God knows how many times I've used this quote (I certainly don't have to look it up), but I'm sure it applies to folk music/this thread, too: "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast" (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure). As I've argued here, I like regulations for fair competition, and to help keep our world nice and multicultural - definitely including the variety of folk music of the nations. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 19 Sep 10 - 09:40 AM Sorry, I misread this thread, with one eye on The Great North Run - playing for free or for a living are both okay, but the inequality in music is as bad as in free-markets elsewhere. Thus, I think part of what I just said is relevant - we need regulations. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 19 Sep 10 - 09:56 AM Oh God. Wav has turned up.....Shall we leave him and Conrad to it? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 19 Sep 10 - 10:01 AM A comrade S. just put me onto this Conrad thread, dear Ralphie. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:00 PM And you definitely need to be here WavyFWBR......oh yeah........Looking forward to it! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:31 PM Right, Suib. I had forgotten about the provenance of Davey's recorder and the quips surrounding it. I'm sure that a true English flute requires that it be made in Japan, of that ancient craft material, plastic. Been that way since the Celtic peoples first arrived in the islands many millennia ago. Conrad is one of these unfortunate people who is obsessed with the idea that everyone in the world is out of step but him and he wants the whole world to conform to his wishes—which are eminently impractical if not downright impossible. He wants everyone to supply him with what he wants for no charge, conveniently ignoring the basic fact of life that everything has a price, if not in currency of the realm, then in someone's effort. In the Garden, after Adam and Eve had eaten all the low-hanging apples, if they wanted any more, someone had to climb the friggin' tree to pick them. Early on, one person beats the bushes and harvests edible roots and berries, while someone else manages to spear a warthog. Then the exchange begins. "I'll trade you a couple of pork chops for a couple of tubers and a handful of those berries." When this kind of barter became too cumbersome, our predecessors worked out a medium of exchange. "These cowry shells, although they're kinda pretty, ain't worth much in and of themselves. But let's use them as markers. A pork chop is worth two cowry shells. A handful of berries is worth one cowry shell. A cup of that weird, foamy water that formed in the bucket of wheat when it got left out in the rain and that makes you feel good while it also makes you sorta dizzy outta be worth at least four cowry shells. . . ." And so money (and presumably, by accident, beer) was invented. You help someone build a thatched hut and he gives you a handful of cowry shells that you can then exchange for whatever you might need or want. Now, we call that "wages." Then along came the minstrels. "He sings kinda purty and the songs he sings tell good stories. Maybe we can get him to bring his lyre and sing for us if we offer him some cowry shells." 'Twas ever thus, Conrad. Sure, things have got more complicated, but the basic structure of exchange of things of value, both tangible and intangible, and the chits that represent them (these days, we call it "money") is as old as humanity. Also, I'm a bit surprised that you seem to maintain that all these things should be free for the asking. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." That smacks of Socialism. And you say, up above, that you are a conservative Republican. Is it possible that you are a bit confused? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM "with one eye on The Great North Run" Did I miss that? Poo! Love watching the big runs. I still hate the fact that Beeb London Marathon coverage is now dominated by booooring professional runners. The reason it used to be brilliant was the nut jobs in massive Bunny costumes collecting for some scabby crotch disease. Or people in Bear Suits playing trombones collecting for ear fungus. Apparently the British cycle race went near my village but we didn't get there to see it due to a work delay. Still, I expect it was too proper for massive bunny suits and buckets for scabby crotch disease. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM ...in a good nation, within a good United Nations, there would be no need for private charities. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:59 PM If you are concerned to spread folk music to the homeless and the hungry, then encouraging them to visit even the cheapest bars seems to be the wrong way to go about it, for all sorts of reasons. Especially if they then have to sit there and watch Conrad swigging pitchers of beer and guzzling plateloads of food which they can't afford - rather rubs there noses in it, doesn't it? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 19 Sep 10 - 02:03 PM "there would be no need for private charities." But what would CofE middle-aged retired bankers DO if there were no charities? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 19 Sep 10 - 03:40 PM Here's a simple, direct question for you Conrad. Which, of course, you will not answer, preferring to duck the issue entirely. Singing folk songs and ballads is my means of livelihood. My way of making a living. If you get your way and I don't get paid for performing, then, how am I supposed to feed my wife and kids? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:01 PM there is a role for paid professionals just not all the roles or all the best ones |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:13 PM That's not an answer to my question. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM In fact, it's not an answer at all. It's gibberish! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 19 Sep 10 - 05:01 PM "But what would CofE middle-aged retired bankers DO if there were no charities?" (C.S.)...use up their stocks of Cuban cigars..?! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 19 Sep 10 - 05:44 PM You are not correct. My position is stick to private exclusive small events and keep the public ones free and unrestricted. I never said that professional folk musicians should not work. They should simply not dominate. The music should be as free as possible. Find a barrier then remove it. High costs of venue food and drink or admission are bariers fostering elitism and exclusion. Large too large audiences make the music impersonal and distant, literally. Break the large audiences into several small ones. Performer audience relationships should be minimized in favor of teacher student relationships. Quality of performance is not necessary and discourages many. Get rid of performer elitism and exclusivity. Its easy! Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: George Papavgeris Date: 19 Sep 10 - 06:26 PM Conrad says :"Performer audience relationships should be minimized in favor of teacher student relationships." and also: "Quality of performance is not necessary and discourages many. Get rid of performer elitism and exclusivity." Words fail me. Conrad, your perception of the world, what makes people tick, what constitutes real life and its relationship to real folk and by extension to folk music, what is education and what is entertainment, are all alien to my world. There is no overlap. I had my suspicions, as I followed this thread over the weeks, but your two sentences above prove this conclusively in my book. I would have no chance persuading you of my viewpoint, as you would have no chance persuading me of yours, for the simple reason that we are looking at different worlds. Have a good life, by your standards. But I hope we never meet. I do not think of myself as elitist, indeed quite the opposite but I would not like to live in your world, because in my view fanatical antisnobbery is simply another kind of snobbery. And neither equate with tolerance. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 19 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM What a load of garbage!
I fail to see how any of this is elitist or exclusive. If I don't go to a concert it is because I choose not to, not because someone says I can't come in. I have plenty of opportunity to go to events that are comfortably within my budget and to which I can go simply by paying the admission fee, so I am not being excluded. The price of food and drink will not play any part in my decision to go to a particular event, though I decent pint may well be a bonus. I notice WAV has weighed in with an irrelevance. I can't say I understand what he is getting at and how it fits in with the thread topic. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 19 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM Financial discrimination is still discrimination. Discrimination against people who are not brilliant performers is still discrimination. If folklorist collectors waited till they found excellent performers they would have collected nothing. Had they waited for amplification to perform there would have been no performances. Limiting folk music is not good. Removing all bariers will create much more demand through direct unobstructed participation. You dont need grant funding you need demand creation. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 19 Sep 10 - 07:19 PM I could jump any one of the points in your last post, Conrad, but I have limited time right now, so I'll just take on this one: " Discrimination against people who are not brilliant performers is still discrimination." I see no point in going to see and hear a performer who is not particularly good, or is possibly so poor he or she sets my teeth on edge. In the same way that, when at the grocery store, I will buy a pound of fresh butter rather than a pound of rancid butter—even though the rancid butter may be discounted. Discrimination? Yes, indeed it is! The ability to make choices between something which is of good quality and something which is not is, among other things, one of the qualities that has kept our species alive throughout the ages. If a person who wishes to perform for others finds that he or she can't get people to listen to them, that's a clear message that they either need to work harder and improve their performances or chose some other line of endeavor. If you make a crappy product and put it on the market, no one is morally bound to buy it. Well, let's see. I'll take on this one, too: "Removing all bariers will create much more demand through direct unobstructed participation." Not unless it's something desirable in the first place. And it's not just the genre of music, it's the quality of performance as well. If you feel it is worthwhile, you should want to present it to people in the most advantageous way, not turn them off by confronting them with a hairy, obese apparition who sings like a malfunctioning fog horn. Even if it is folk music. ESPECIALLY because it is folk music. Crappy performers can actually drive audiences away and discourage them from coming back. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Sep 10 - 07:40 PM Yesterday I was brought with artcar to the H. street festival in DC. I was only given a donation to cover the gas. Across the street the local german beer garden was selling cups mind you not pints for $5.00- lots of people could not afford that. But I bet lots of people did pay that! In each case above.....the beer vs. the fartcar.....I think people got exactly what they paid for! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 19 Sep 10 - 08:07 PM You must not listen to some of the most important singers from the tradition preserved on wax cylinders or tape. Believe me content and knowing the songs is far more important than quality. You are just interested in show biz not folklore. But you need to know it was my artcar and a few others that brought those thousands to the festival. Fifty pictures a minute. People posing with the car, babys held up to the car for pictures, women doing things with the hands. The inspiration of great fun. We have a good time glad to assist. We are sponsored by a gallery that does not sell art just displays it. Our aspect of the event is fueled only by donations we get a small mileage check that barely covers gas from the gallery owners and we are fed with donations from local businesses. I just other people would follow our example and ditch the profit for one day. I can do it. Cant be that hard. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM A novelty it may be but art it ain't! LMAO.......Did you kiss the babies as well? Do you give out antibiotics? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 19 Sep 10 - 11:46 PM Where have you been its an entire genre of art. Check out the Houston artcar museum and the orange show parade. My hand car won first place one year- about 400 entries. catspaw you are a novelty |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ralphie Date: 20 Sep 10 - 01:33 AM I would suggest that as Conrad and WAV are now in communication with each other, the rest of us should quietly tip-toe away, and leave them to it! Argueing with either of them is like "Knitting Fog" |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 20 Sep 10 - 02:55 AM "You must not listen to some of the most important singers from the tradition preserved on wax cylinders or tape" No you MUST NOT Listen! All you will hear is a horrible scratchy noise drowning out a bad performance of someone who cannot sing! "Women doing things with their hands" ... I am speechless ... yep, speechless ... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 20 Sep 10 - 03:51 AM I just other people would follow our example and ditch the profit for one day. I can do it. Cant be that hard. Conrad, you really haven't been listening, have you? As you've been told repeatedly, folk musicians (including professionals) are playing for free at thousands of events, big and small. You're right, it isn't that hard, and people are doing it. So what's your beef? Do you imagine the H Street Festival is run entirely for altruistic and artistic reasons? The event is "sponsored by major corporations such as Verizon, Coca Cola, PNC Bank and local establishments such as Philadelphia Ice, Phish Tea and R&B Coffee". Major corporations sponsor events like these because it is cheap advertising for them, and ticks boxes for community involvement as part of their sustainability policies. The reason local businesses support it is that it brings them commercial benefits: "viewed as a financial success by local business owners; as evidenced by a 30% increase in business at Phish Tea, a posh and trendy restaurant, bar and lounge located on festival grounds." H Street Festival And all they did was pay for your gas? Looks like they took advantage of you. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 20 Sep 10 - 06:43 AM No you MUST NOT Listen! All you will hear is a horrible scratchy noise drowning out a bad performance of someone who cannot sing! I trust Foolestroupe is in jest here, although this seems to be one the prevelent misconceptions aong many Folkies today (and of the past 50 years) who prefer slick repro revivalism to the real thing. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 20 Sep 10 - 11:14 AM My point exactly- worshiping the false god of quality will only narrow the field of people who get access to stages and venues and we need it to expand. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Bettynh Date: 20 Sep 10 - 11:49 AM Does the internet qualify as a "stage or venue"? If so, there's no need to expand it. Anyone of any quality can broadcast from a computer free or at minimal cost (many computers have webcams now). Lacking a computer, you might have to give up a beer to rent time at a net cafe. Tell us a story, Conrad! You have a website. Use it! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 20 Sep 10 - 12:23 PM worshiping the false god of quality will only narrow the field of people who get access to stages and venues and we need it to expand. Need it to expand? It seems to me that far too many people get access to stages and venues as it is. We should be trying to improve the quality of music, not excuse any old rubbish on the grounds that it's "folk". However I can understand why Conrad wants to do away with quality, it's obviously the only way he'll be allowed to perform. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:53 PM Conrad: "worshiping the false god of quality will only narrow the field of people who get access to stages and venues and we need it to expand.." Howard: "Need it to expand? It seems to me that far too many people get access to stages and venues as it is. We should be trying to improve the quality of music, not excuse any old rubbish on the grounds that it's 'folk.'" Exactly so, Howard! Conrad, I think you share something with this young lady. Neither of you have quite figured out the way it works. I know people who, initially curious about folk music, went to hear some local folk singer and were totally repelled by the lack of quality of that particular singer and simply wrote folk music off as something that may have great anthropological value, but not something they ever cared to listen to again. One fellow I know, whose main musical interest was early opera (Monteverdi and such) and early music in general (consorts such as The Baltimore Consort), lute music, etc.), Elizabethan music (Dowland, et al.) told me that one evening he had dropped into a coffeehouse that featured a folk singer with the idea of seeing if he would like folk music. He got thoroughly turned off, and wasn't interested in hearing any more. I knew the singer he was referring to—mediocre singing voice with a tendency to go off-pitch, didn't know squat about folk music, and got all his songs from Kingston Trio records. So I sat my friend down and played a record for him. Richard Dyer-Bennet. The classically trained tenor voice and the classic guitar was more the kind of sound he was familiar with. This was—yeah, that's okay! I played another record for him. Ed McCurdy. Yeah, he was okay, too. Joan Baez? Hey, she can really sing! Then I invited him to come to a performance I was giving in a couple of weeks in the Seattle Public Library's Lee Auditorium. Okay, I'm not Dyer-Bennet (nor do I want to be, other than thinking that he had the right idea about treating folk songs seriously, not just as light novelty pieces, but giving the performance of them as much care and attention as you would a song by Schubert). My voice is okay (bass-baritone), but although I have had training, I don't try to sound operatic. Nor do I try to sound like I just fell of the turnip truck like a lot of city-born and bred singers of folk songs. I just open my mouth and sing. My friend decided, not just that I was okay, but that folk music was okay, too. He became a regular at concerts, coffeehouses, and festivals. And Conrad, he was just one of many. Singing folk songs and ballads with a listenable singing voice (not necessarily highly polished) and putting some thought into how one does the songs (not just memorizing the words and singing them by rote) makes a big difference in whether people will enjoy the songs well enough to come back for more. Quality? It does not "narrow the field" of people who want to hear folk music. Or, for that matter, take it up and do it themselves. It broadens it. This should be obvious! But of course none of this is going to sink in. Your head's made up and you don't want to be confused with FACTS. You're already confused enough. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:56 PM Good idea, Betty! Let's HEAR Conrad and see what he's got. If anything. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 20 Sep 10 - 11:44 PM Folk music is much more than quality. It is bringing songs through time. It is sad that so many so called folk musicians only bring forward the echos of their own thoughts and not the legacy of the past as well. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:13 AM Don, that lady on the horse is interesting .... did you know I can actually play the Piano Accordion holding it upside down? I can even play the whistle holding it back to front? Sadly, I haven't yet figured out how to make lots of money doing this yet .... cause any fool can also do it if they practice enough ... "It is sad that so many so called folk musicians only bring forward the echos of their own thoughts and not the legacy of the past as well. " Bzzztttt.... the 'old folk musos' were only doing just the same as that which you say you despise .... just like the Copper Family ... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:41 AM The whole purpose behind a quality singer of folk songs—one with a voice that is at least fairly pleasant to listen to, and who studies the backgrounds of the songs and puts a great deal of thought into how to do them—is to invoke echoes of the legacy of the past. But, Conrad, I don't think you have the ear, the aesthetic sensibility, or the sensitivity to even recognize that when you hear it. In addition to your lack of aesthetic sense, you're probably too beered up to recognize it when it's there, loud and clear. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:45 AM You know, Conrad is kind of like a slinky. It isn't good for anything, but when you push it down the stairs, it tends to make you smile. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 21 Sep 10 - 12:59 PM Again Don you would exclude the only person left singing a collection of songs just because you did not think they were a good singer. Shame on you. I would not exclude better singers I would just have them share the venues. But you would EXCLUDE these people. Sort of like excluding those who cant buy an over priced beer or making them go out and get better jobs so they could. We call that elitism, economic segregation, and professional snobbery. These things hurt the broadening and growth of the tradition Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:44 PM Don't talk crap, Conrad. I'm not advocating excluding anyone! If anyone wants to sing, fine with me. Nor am I excluding anyone who doesn't have the money to buy overpriced or any other kind of beer. I don't run a pub, I don't sponsor concerts, and I don't organize folk festivals (unless no one else is doing it). I don't make those decisions! I am a singer. Apparently good enough so that people are willing to pay me to sing. But I also sing a lot of places for free. The problem, Conrad, is YOU! Get a job. Get a life! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: John P Date: 21 Sep 10 - 02:34 PM It is sad that so many so called folk musicians only bring forward the echos of their own thoughts and not the legacy of the past as well. Conrad, if you feel it is important to somehow represent the past when making music, have at it. You might, however, want to actually learn about the past before you start representing yourself as a representative of the past. For me, I feel no compunction to represent anything other playing music as well as I can. You seem to feel that being a folk musician means one also has to be a historian or musicologist or some such thing. I enjoy history and musicology, and am apparently a lot better educated in those topics than you are, but I see no reason to turn every stage into a classroom and every song into an academic study. I'm a musician. I play folk music. How about if you do whatever you think is right and stop telling other people they are doing it wrong? You seem to be confusing the concept of traditional music with historical recreation. They're not the same. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 21 Sep 10 - 02:35 PM But you have supported those concepts. You have been arguing against open and free music Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 21 Sep 10 - 03:32 PM Dammit, Conrad, NO ONE (with the possible exception of YOU!) is arguing against open and fee music! #### Conrad, collectors like Cecil J. Sharp, the Lomaxes, the Warners, et al, are not particularly concerned with the quality of the voices and the general singing ability of those from whom they collected songs. But IF they are going to collect any songs from them, their informant MUST be able to sing at least an approximation of the correct pitches so they can notate the tune of the song, and the informant must have sufficiently clear diction so they can at least get an idea of what the words are so that they can write them down. The informant does not have to be a potential Metropolitan Opera star. In fact, they could have a voice like fingernails on a blackboard, but they, AT THE VERY LEAST, have to sing a song well enough so the collector can write down the words and tune, otherwise it's an waste of time and an exercise in futility. This should be obvious, even to you! Having a golden throat is not a prerequisite for singing folk songs and ballads. One of the major professional singers during the Sixties and beyond, was Dave Van Ronk. He had a voice like a rusty hinge and a throat full of phlegm, and when he sang, he made you feel like you needed to clear your throat. Yet, he was one of the major figures in the folk revival. His singing voice was barely listenable, but he made the most of it. He knew the subtleties of the songs he sang and he could express the emotions of the songs like very few singers could. All in all, he was an excellent singer of folk songs, in spite of his voice. A very good friend of mine, whom I have known for years, loves folk music, he knows a great deal about it, and has even written academic papers on ballads and ballad histories. And he knows hundreds of songs. But he was practically born with asthma, and it has adversely affected his voice. His speaking voice is husky, and his singing voice equally husky, if not moreso. And although he has a fairly good ear, he hasn't enough control over his vocal mechanism to be able to sing on pitch. Close, but no more than an approximate. When he sings, you can get an idea of the "melodic curve" of the song, but you can't get an accurate fix on the actual pitches. Now, here's a guy who loves to sing, and wants to very much. But he knows the deficiencies of his voice. In his heart of hearts, I'm quite sure he would love to, but he would never attempt to sing in any kind of setting with a conventional audience, such as at a coffeehouse, pub, folk festival, or God forbid, try to give a concert. I feel for the guy, as do all his folk music aficionado friends. When we have "hoots" (informal song fests in someone's home), he brings his guitar, because, in the course of the evening as various people sing, someone will ASK him to sing something. He would love to be able to sing well if he could, and since he's a good friend, we all make sure that he has a chance. But, Conrad, no one would be cruel enough to suggest that he try to sing at folk festivals or open mikes. In fact, he knows better than to try. But—there ARE people out there whose voices are no better than our friend's, who DON'T have the self-awareness and good sense to know that their voices are not particularly pleasant to listen to. Here's something for you to contemplate, Conrad: When I was two years old, I contracted polio. My legs don't work very well, and I've walked with a leg brace and crutches all my life, until recently, when I've had to take to a wheelchair. I always knew that there were certain things that, due to my physical condition, I would never be able to do. I can swim like a fish. But become a tap dancer? No. General run of sports like football, baseball, basketball? I don't think so. Climb Mount Everest? No. Scale the sheer rock face of El Capitan in Yosemite National Park? Not bloody likely! But there were a lot of things I could (can) do. I'm fairly good at art: drawing, painting, cartooning. I worked for several years doing engineering drawings for Boeing airplanes. I can write, and have written quite a bit, both fiction and non-fiction, some of which has been published. I have a fairly deep, mellow speaking voice and worked for several years in radio, as a newscaster, a disk jockey, and as an announcer at a classical music radio station. And I can sing. I love music, and I love folk music in particular. But I'm fully aware that my singing voice has limitations. My voice category is "bass," the lowest male voice. I can sing down to a low E (same pitch as the 6th string of a guitar), and on a good day, maybe down to a D. And I'm kind of pushing it a bit if I try to sing up to middle C (1st fret, 2nd string). That's a fairly limited singing range. An operatic bass is expected to be able to sing from a low F (1st fret, 6th string) up two octaves to the F on the 1st fret of the 1st string. So singing opera is out. But fortunately, folk songs and ballads are what I want to sing, and I can sing those. So I do! Learn to work within your limitations, Conrad. You'll be a lot happier, and you'll be less of a pain in the ass to other people. Don Firth |
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