Is the heyday of collecting over

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 10:23 PM

Naturally, 'folk music', as a subject of study, was defined by the people who studied it. The people who sang it were mostly quite uninterested in what it was called; though, as Jim Carroll has explained elsewhere, some did make a clear distinction between the old and new items in their repertoires, generally giving a higher value to those they considered older (and, it should be said, frequently expressing pleasure that 'collectors' showed an interest in them, as their own children did not).

In what way is this a problem?

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:19 AM

Malcolm,
I am sure that if folk music was redefined in 2007,those people who defined it would give more consideration to the opinions of traditional singers on the subject.,it is quite feasible that those same people might redefine it differently today,from how they did in 1954.
The attitudes of collectors and society and the attitudes of society have changed since 1954, so many things have changed since the days of [The ManintheMoon /Peter Kennedy Scan Tester, patronising remark].
The problem is that those people in 1954 ,who made that definition,reflected the attitudes prevalent in that day,.
After fifty years and massive changes in society,I believe the definition should be given a 21stcentury evaluation,with consideration to the viewpoint of the people,from whom the songs were collected.
It should be the duty of collectors not merely to collect the songs,but wherever possible to get the singers veiwpoint on the songs,and how they define a folksong.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Santa
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 11:05 AM

Think, people! Given the difficulties of travel in 1954, comfortably predating the ease of international travel that the jet engine has brought to us, is it really surprising that few traditional singers made the trip to Sao Paolo? What was the cost, London to SP? No paying gigs there, just an international conference with much talking and (I suspect) few sessions?

Can it genuinely be said that those who did represent folk music there were patronising and arrogant, and deliberately excluded traditional folk? Or is this just latter-day chips on shoulders?   It seems more likely that they were genuinely interested and informed people, if rather more academic than some might like. Oh dear, we can't have them informed and academic people interested in our folk music, can we?   There is a thread on folk music and the middle class elsewhere, for those who do think that way.......

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:30 PM

no , they probably didnt deliberately exclude them,but more likely didnt think that they had anything worthwhile to contribute,that decisions such as were made, were better made by the EFDSS or their representatives,Than by the people from whom the songs were collected.
I am sure If Douglas Kennedy were alive today he would think and act differently,he and all the other delegates were products of their times,some of them still tinged with British Imperialist notions, and all of them affected by class attitudes that were prevalent at the time.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:15 PM

no , they probably didnt deliberately exclude them,but more likely didnt think that they had anything worthwhile to contribute,that decisions such as were made, were better made by the EFDSS or their representatives,Than by the people from whom the songs were collected

Dick that is pure simple speculation. You have an obsession with the EFDSS which seems entirely based on ideas of your own and bears no known relationship to the facts. You do this time and time again and people like John Adams and Malcolm Douglas have to waste their valuable time correcting you.That´s apart from your somewhat idiosyncratic use of punctuation and the norms of writing.

Now here is a positive suggestion as far as the latter is concerned.

Write out what you want to say in WORD and after spell-checking and grammar-checking, copy and paste the result into Mudcat.

Abd here is a positive suggestion about the EFDSS. Make sure you know what you are talking about and don´t post simple speculation made up by you.

It would help us all.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:03 PM

Douglas Kennedy was director of EFDSS in 1954.Maud Karpeles was a member,and no ordinary member,she was a close associate of CecilSharp,and helped him with much of his collecting,both of these two were present,other ENGLISH members of the EFDSS present were MrsLakeBennett,MissKingsley,and MissBeryl deZoete,theIFMC were happily going with their definition when the then Director of EFDSS
Douglas Kennedy proposed the addition of the third paragraph.
This is all Reported in the journal of the EFDSS 1954 ,it is not speculation but fact.
Well Mr Eyre if you have proof that they did consult traditional singers and ask their opinions,please provide it, and I will apologise.
I do not have an obession with EFDSS. I have been critical of their past management ,but have on a number of occasions wished the present management every success.
Icould easily make a positive suggestion of what you should do,but I will not as personal abuse is best avoided on this forum.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:07 PM

correction,
The third paragraph/Kennedy information is not reported in the journal,but was taken from doc toms post on another thread,he has done a PHD on this subject.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 04:43 AM

no , they probably didnt deliberately exclude them,but more likely didnt think that they had anything worthwhile to contribute,that decisions such as were made, were better made by the EFDSS or their representatives,Than by the people from whom the songs were collected

Dick the words "probably" - "more likely" - indicate that you are guessing their motives. No one is denying your expertise in the matter of the IFMC, although I seem to remember only a week or so ago you had no idea where the definition came from.

I don´t need to prove their motives, I am not imputing anything to them. You are, so the burden of proof lies with you.

Clearly your expertise in the matter of Maud Karpeles helpìng Sharp with "much of his collecting" is much greater than mine. Tell us which of his collecting she helped him with Dick.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:27 AM

Dave,I have some blackcurrant bushes to plant,Then I have some music to play,you probably want to watch Sheffield United play football.
can we let otherpeole put their points of view, I will get back to Maud Karpeles, tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:55 AM

Maud and her sister Helen (1887Ð1976) first came across folk dances and songs when they attended the Stratford-upon-Avon Festival in 1909. They subsequently formed a folk dance club and gave demonstrations to illustrate Cecil Sharp's public lectures, thereby forming the nucleus of Sharp's English Folk Dance Society (EFDS), founded in 1911, which merged with the Folk-Song Society in 1932 to form the English Folk Dance and Song Society. By 1913, Maud had offered her services as Sharp's amanuensis and effectively took up residence with his family. She accompanied him on all but the first of his visits to America, and on all of his collecting trips to the Appalachians of 1916-18.
www.wikipiedia online encyclopeadia

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 08:49 AM

Folkiedave, why do you have to be so insulting to Cap'n Birdseye, he is entitled to his opinions and views, just the same as you are. I have no axe to grind, either with EFDSS or yourselves, as I do not know either of you.

I'm sick of this kind of slanging that wastes so much time and space on this website, is it really necessary?

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 02:42 PM

Folkiedave, why do you have to be so insulting to Cap'n Birdseye, he is entitled to his opinions and views,

I must confess I go through periods of trying to resist posting on threads that the Captain starts.

Then once again he posts something that is patently untrue. Of course he is entitled to his opinions. What (IMHO) he is not entitled to do is show either incomplete knowledge or misunderstand what someone has said. Especially when with five minutes thought and/or research what he says can be shown to be wrong.

As his posting on the subject of Maud Karpeles shows.

What the Captain said was that she helped Sharp with "much of his collecting". Sharp had in fact more or less completed his collecting of folk songs in England and published his thoughts in his book "English Folk Songs: Some Conclusions" in 1907.

His morris and sword dancing collecting was also mostly done and also completed before Karpeles came on the scene.

He had difficulty writing because of neuritis so she became his amanuensis and then as it says in Wikipedia entry his secretary in 1913.

She accompanied him with his collecting in the Appalachians for a total of forty six weeks in two separate visits between 1916 and 1918. She herself collected in Newfoundland which Sharp had intended to visit but never did.

Those aren´t opinions, those are facts. You and Dick are entitled to try and contradict them. None of what I have written negates the Wikipedia entry that Dick copied and pasted - neither does that entry say as Dick did, that she helped Sharp with "much of his collecting". It doesn´t say, that because she didn´t.

You see Dick is planting his blackcurrant bushes, a bit early in my opinion, personally I´d have left them a bit later - but of course the climate in Sheffield is different to where Dick lives. So he is entitled to his opinion when it comes to planting blackcurrants.

And Lizzie, your posts are so easy to spot. Please don´t.