Stealing gigs from the pro's

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: synbyn
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:41 AM

It ends up sometimes that local semi-pros who go out for expenses end up subsidising the club so they can book bigger names... and if it brings in a pro who otherwise wouldn't be seen in the area, well worth doing...

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:19 AM

It's an entirely reasonable viewpoint, AFPR. But at least some organisers are broad-minded enough to take it on board. I can remember one or two of them (who may well be reading this thread) saying to me that they were going to book So-&-So even though they personally didn't care much for what that artist did. But, they said, our club members do/would like them.

The organisers I am thinking of told me that their booking policies were not so much a matter of their own personal taste as what would go down in their clubs. Of course this carries a financial consideration, because "good for the club" has to also mean either profit or (more realistically) not too great a financial drain. But maybe these enlightened leaders are in the minority - my recollections are from a long time ago when everything in the scene was much healthier. And less expensive (thinking particularly of fuel).

It would be interesting to have further input from them -

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:59 AM

Seems like there is a continuum of what musicians get paid. It starts at unpaid, and goes up to "fills stadiums overnight". You jump in there at the Unpaid level and bounce around as far up the ladder as you choose to go, and whatever time, talent and circumstances allow.   Take whatever gigs fit into your plan.

Poppagator, you have taken the risk to your health of resettling in a tough place. This risk is being compensated, you can temporarily receive a premium for being there and available. Nothing wrong with that.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:04 AM

GUEST, Anon FPR

Complicated questions. I'm going to have to tread carefully.

But I sometimes wonder to what extent you, and other organisers, feel you are perhaps custodians of Folk Music in your area (as the landed genry are merely custodians of their stately homes!), so feel some wider responsibility for the survial of the genre in your patch,

In an unstated way, I suppose we do but that largely manifests itself in supporting and giving opportunities to the local semi-pros, enthusiastic amateurs and those who are happy enough to do the occasional floor spot. Isn't that what "folk" music is about?

and also even, to a certain extent, the survival of the touring muso as a species.

Well... The professionals are a valuable part of the scene, they give lesser mortals a standard to aspire to, we wish them well and will always try and give them the best deal we can. After all, we want them to come back. But... our priorities are the music and our audiences. It's not our job to provide the professionals with a way of making a living.

If you decide you don't like an artist for whatever reason, you are effectively closing that town to them for good

With the exception of one or two who failed to turn up and never even apologised, I don't think we exclude anybody but there are only 52 weeks in a year; we can't book everybody. We choose the ones we like and that we think our audience will like.

The nearest "rival" is actually 100yds away and we both seem to be doing all right. I think we complement each other. There is quite a lot of overlap between our guest lists (which takes a bit of co-operation) but quite a few names that only appear at one or the other. There are other clubs in the region so I don't think any performer is excluded.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:09 AM

Why are guests once again allowed to post on Mudcat?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:18 AM

synbyn

It ends up sometimes that local semi-pros who go out for expenses end up subsidising the club so they can book bigger names...

Absolutely not! We do not steal from one performer to pay another. Club funds come from raffles and singers' nights.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: IanC
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:51 AM

I think I have a whole different take on this one. I only had anything to do with folk clubs and festivals during the 2nd half of the 1970s when I was a postgraduate student at Nottingham. Before that, I only went to folk clubs half a dozen times in Cambridge or Newcastle. I spent much more time in singsongs in pubs in my village and surrounding villages, carol singing and other rural activities (some urban ones too, in Newcastle).

During the 3 years I was at Nottingham, though, I went to folk clubs most evenings. These were pretty various and variable but, among the smaller ones, there was a clear 3-week cycle. Basically, this was:

Week 1 - guest night. Often a national figure. Packed but run at a loss
Week 2 - singers night. Packed, run at a profit
Week 3 - singers night. Low on numbers, usually run at a small profit.

The guest nights were often really great. Pet & Chris Coe, Martin Carthy etc. were regulars. We often had a great time at singers nights too. The club organisers weren't exactly breaking even, though. Not only were the singers nights subsidising the guest nights, the organisers were usually funding these things out of their own pockets or running fundraisers outside the scope of the folk club itself ... May Day events, Cailidhs and Barndances etc. They got to see people they wanted to see by doing it, so they felt it was worthwhile ... and probably it was.

I moved to Belfast in 1978, where things were a little different. When I came back in 1982, I moved back near to where I'd been brought up and so I came back to the tradition of pub singsongs and so on, though I did get involved with folk dancing locally.

That's where I am now. Occasionally, I'll go to a concert. I've been to folk clubs a dozen or so times in the past 25 years, usually when they've asked me or one of the groups I'm involved with to perform. I'm happier than anything singing and playing music with my friends in the local village pub, and that's what I think of as "folk" if I call it that.

If there's someone on I like at a folk club, I might go see them. There seldom seems to be enough time, though.

If somebody can make a living out of this precarious occupation, good luck to them. Conversely, I don't think you can exactly blame the organisers of folk clubs for putting on local people who cost less, or nothing at all. After all, they have a hard enough time keeping going anyway.

;-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:11 PM

Hmmm, this is interesting for me as I am just starting Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club in North Yorks, opening night on 24th November, we will run monthly (see KFFC thread for details)....I have booked acts through from November to May next year. The club is not for profit...but I may make a loss.

I have booked (some of) the cream of the local semi pros for the first couple of months, both acts have very good local profiles and will probably pull in more audience than all but the top division of full time pros....at the lower end of real market rates.

I have full time pros for months 3 & 5, at club start up rates from one and a gentlemans agreement that I will give him a gig later at "proper" market rates(thanks, you know who you are!). 80% of door for the other with a lowish minimum guarantee.

Month 6 sees 2 good semi-pros (with lowish local profile) sharing 80% of the door.

February is even more interesting as we are planning a mini fest, which means I can't balance my risks by offering a % of the door....I also can't afford to pay all the acts who want to appear and many are doing it for nothing or very low fees. I just had to set a budget (i.e what I could afford to lose without the children going too hungry). I had an idea who I wanted to put on, approached these, and let myself be persuaded by others I hadn't seen or heard.

Most of the acts have appreciated this and have understood that they need to help invest in a new venture by giving their time cheaply or for free. There were only one or two who didn't respond when I laid out the financial situation to them! Bad manners...they won't be getting gigs if we ever get on an even keel (even if they are good and REALLY famous)!!!

Hopefully this illustrates a range of options and flexibility from me....we will see if it is financially viable!!

In my spare (!) time I also try to get gigs for my other half (Wendy Arrowsmith).....it is REALLY annoying when club organisers don't respond to emails, phone messages etc even to say no!

I don't think any club organiser has ever asked me if she is full time or not....they are much more interested in if she can do the job, what she has done before etc.

Anyway Hamish, you know all this...and also that I do not think that you are (or can) stealing gigs from pro's!!!

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:55 PM

Guest said "Unions? In the FOLK-performing world? Not a workable plan. You apparently don't know about Folk Musician's Local of Am Fed of Musicians

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 01:01 PM

a Pro is somebody who is available,Either internationally or nationally,they are often people who have worked many years at their craft and their repertoire.
most of them have sacrificed domestic life,to pursue their love of music for little financial reward.
Gigs do not belong to anybody:but without the professionals to provide a higher standard,the folk club /festival circuit would be poorer.
Eveery organiser has a perfect right to select their own guest list,and I am sure everyone agrees we need both pros, semi pros,and good floor singers,and dedicated organisers to keep the clubs going.
I believe ,that the folkscene has become poorer,because of all the pros who have jacked it in,we need to adress why they have jacked it in,because the scene will be poorer,if only local people are available for gigs.Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: synbyn
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 01:07 PM

TheSnail- Yes, this isn't something I'd do as a club policy myself, but I've performed at places where this has happened because a fee had been agreed- a fair price all round- and it might have been to the club's detriment had not so many people turned out. As it was, the club benefited, the performer benefited by the agreed expenses and the subsequent performers benefited because the club was able to afford them. No gripes. But I can see this not being a route for the fulltime pro- a hat is always a gamble on weather and other attractions, Reminded of Julie Ellison's story about a low turnout...:"oh yes," said the lanlord " they've got t' fake orgasm contest up t' rood..."

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 01:11 PM

A lot of English folkies are in the Musician's Union, both fulltime and semi-pro.The union is very keen to organise in folk circles, and has officers dedicated to this area of music. I'm not sure that the MU gig rates are terribly relevant, they are probably lower than a travelling pro would need. The national minimum gig rate is I believe set to be appropriate for the sort of pub gig level, which is really for the semipro player with day job. I may be wrong on this, perhaps someone with a Musician mag to hand with the latest rates could write in? I haven't time to look this minute.
    I should have thought union rates etc are very relevant to the folk scene, hence my semi-facetious reference to singing the "Blackleg Miner". Folkies were all good lefties in the good old days. Working at below the national rate would have been very frowned on!
    There are still people writing to these and similar threads who think "unpaid" should be part of the definition of folk. But folk music has always had professionals. The pipers and fiddlers and so on who played for weddings, village dances, entertaining workers in the fields etc, were paid. That was a job. Always has been, I imagine.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: synbyn
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 02:38 PM

Thing is Greg, it's all about turnout and prices. You're a good fulltimer who earns every penny, no gripe there, but if performers insisted on MU rates there wouldn't be a circuit of smaller clubs, those that exist on 25 or so regulars who save up to afford a big guest every month or three months or so. I can only think of one in Kent which doesn't have to raise money via singers nights / raffle to stay afloat, and that's close to London catchment. So I see the benevolent semi as part of this: raising capital to afford pros. As to whether these small clubs should exist, that's another argument altogether, certainly the licensing act tried to cut them out. I think it's like Dr Beeching- if you cut off the branch lines, ultimately the main lines suffer. Pub takings may be augmented, but not to the extent that landlords will chip in much- in fact they often want to charge for the room. It's these small clubs who feed into the larger festivals and make an audience, I think.
Bob

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:18 PM

synbyn

So I see the benevolent semi as part of this: raising capital to afford pros.

You're doing it again. Why should money that the audience were prepared to pay to see one artist be taken away from them to subsidise another? The only justification for a professional to ask for more money is that more people are willing to pay higher ticket prices to see them.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: synbyn
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:25 PM

Yes I am- but that's my choice as a semipro who likes to see the best pros in action locally. That's why I suggested it's a personal choice and not one a fulltime pro could make. You're right, of course. I just like to have & give as many an enjoyable time as possible. It may be that others would come back through being included in this way to see the visiting pro.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:30 PM

We don't make any distinction. An artist is an artist. They get what is taken on the door. What they do in the day is their business. Super-star status is reflected in the ticket price.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:31 PM

If the wages were higher all around, some of the better entertainers and performers who have gone into the mainstream would be drawn into folk instead, and younger talents would be drawn in, as well--then maybe the crowds would start coming back to the folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:42 PM

M.Ted

If the wages were higher all around,...

So where do we get the money to pay them before the crowds start coming back?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:04 PM

My personal position is as I said earlier: we'll generally play for the lion's share of the door money, accompanied by a modest guarantee. The guarantee is useful, it ensures that the organisers actually do a bit of legwork, postering, press, mailouts etc. Believe me, I have encountered places that don't!
    What does irritate me, and this has happened often, is that a venue organiser will plead hard luck and low audiences, and talk us into accepting a low fixed fee. Then, we fund they make a profit, and tell us, without any shame, that they are going to use that profit to subsidise another performer they intend to pay a higher fee to. That is not the market operating, that is robbing the generous poor to help the greedy rich. Which is why I tend to go for the door split option generally, I don't like being pick-pocketed. And believe me, it is even more irritating if the performer who is going to get the higher fee in fact has a day-job as well, because I don't.
   I am more than happy if a venue uses a bit of profit to subsidise an up and coming artist to get a reasonable fee. I am more than happy if they use a bit of profit to help an interesting overseas act to make a tour economic.But I don't like people making a profit on our performance(ie paying us less than we are worth) in order to subsidise a higher fee for someone else(ie paying them more than they are worth) so that the other act ends up with more than we do. That is just cock-eyed, and yet a lot of people are prepared to do it.
   But I absolutely don't think professionals are worth more than semi-professionals, or any nonsense like that. Basically, performing comes down to bums on seats, and that's how it is. Unless of course, your cousin works for the Arts Council or is a philanthropophic millionaire, when different considerations apply, and the gravy train starts to chug out of the station.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:22 PM

Snail
Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:30 PM

We don't make any distinction. An artist is an artist. They get what is taken on the door. What they do in the day is their business. Super-star status is reflected in the ticket price.
so you as an organiser decide who is a superstar?,surely this depends on how good an agent,the performer has,if he can convince you that you have to pay x istead of y,you then pass the message on to the punter, that one performer is better than another.
So we have a situation at your club,where you tell the audience,that they have to pay more for one artist[the real reason is that one artist may have an agent and another doesnt]and the audience gets the impression that one is better than another,.
Then the organiser sells tickets for an artist[This is hypothetical,Iknow little about your club,as I havent played it for15 years] and tell the audience that if they dont buy tickets,thay may all be sold out,hyping up a particular artist,the system stinks and is geared in favour of those artists who have pushy management.
It reminds me of when I was a club organiser,and an agent made up a mythical nine month waiting list for two performers,imagine my surprise when one of them phoned me up for a gig,and when questioned about the waiting list,just explained it was an agents marketing device.in my opinion totally dishonest.
If there is one thing I detest its this sort of pricing,in my opinion folk clubs should charge the same price for whoever is the guest,regardless of the artists fee.how the folk club finds the fee is the organisers problem,but you should not be insulting guests[who may not need/or prefer not to use an agent]by implying their value is less,because the door price is less.Dick Miles
.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:27 PM

From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:42 PM

M.Ted

If the wages were higher all around,...

So where do we get the money to pay them before the crowds start coming back?
out of your day jobs wages,or fund raising events,scratch cards raffles etc[that is the organisers problem]
if you havent got the money you shouldnt be running a club.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:34 PM

Captain Birdseye

If there is one thing I detest its this sort of pricing,in my opinion folk clubs should charge the same price for whoever is the guest,regardless of the artists fee.how the folk club finds the fee is the organisers problem,but you should not be insulting guests[who may not need/or prefer not to use an agent]by implying their value is less,because the door price is less.

Dick, artists fees are paid for from ticket sales. Higher fee, higher ticket price. Simple.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:45 PM

Snail,[imo]as explained ,a bad system.
Festivals charge a weekend price[many of the artists are paid differing amounts]but it is not reflected in the ticket price,the audience is free then to make its own judgements,solely on the merit of the artists performance.Why should a /club be different?
what you are doing is similiar to handicapping in horse racing,and is totally unfair on the lesser priced guest artist.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:55 PM

Captain Birdseye

Why should a /club be different?

Because a club generally books only one paid guest at a time and the audience will pay what THEY judge that guest is worth. We can't force people to turn up regardless.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: autolycus
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:15 PM

Hope this hasn't been said already.

Thread correctly - stealing gigs from the pros.

Simple plural.

    Ivor

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:23 PM

No,please be honest, its what you the organiser ,[under pressure from an agents demands]decide ,what they are worth,not the audience.
Attendance at aclub can be affected by a number of other factors[whether there are any festivals on]television[world cup etc]etc ,it is not entirely down to the booked artist,
The best CLUBS ,are those where the organiser has nurtured a loyal following,and people will turn up every week regardless,TRUSTING THE ORGANISER.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:25 PM

It was much like that at a certain folk club in Montreal at one time. However, even so, some people drew more than others despite the cost at the door remaining static.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:25 PM

stealing gigs from the professionals,the apostrophe denotes something has been left out[ofessional].

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:30 PM

No, Ivor - "pro's" is an abbreviation for "professionals" - and that is what the apostrophe means in this case, it indicates that letters have been missed out.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:31 PM

"The best Clubs are those where the organiser has nurtured a loyal following, and people will turn up every week regardless, trusting the Organiser".

That's about the height of it, really.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:39 PM

Cap'n Birdseye: you might like to live in a world where we all pay the same prices for all artists, irrespective of their allure. But this is the real world, and in the end I am always going to spend more to see the Stones than the Counterfeit Stones. It's the way it is. It's like wine, I'm afraid. Some is worth £2.99 to me, some is worth £9.99 to me. After that, I don't bother.
   To be fair, I rarely pay to see people, I can generally wangle myself in.But I just paid a lot(£25?? can't remember) to see Ladysmith Black Mambazo(sp?). Well worth it.But I wouldn't pay so much to see (OK no, names, no packdrill).

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:41 PM

Captain Birdseye

The best CLUBS ,are those where the organiser has nurtured a loyal following,and people will turn up every week regardless,TRUSTING THE ORGANISER.

Name those clubs Dick. I've never come across one that sells out every week. In the real world, we have to balance our books.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:46 PM

Captain Birdseye

The best CLUBS ,are those where the organiser has nurtured a loyal following,and people will turn up every week regardless,TRUSTING THE ORGANISER.


...even if that was a good situation...it takes time to get there, any suggestions what I do i the meantime with a new club?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:50 PM

With respect, TheSnail, it is not Dick's job to tell you yours...

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: oggie
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:54 PM

Sorry Captain but in the real world (as opposed to the one we may like to see) you can get more people to pay more money to see Vin Garbutt than to see (say) Pete Coe. That may change but in the here and now it's a fact and Vin's rate is higher and so is the door fee. The fact that I'd rather see Pete is irrelevant to the economics of keeping a club afloat.

I also don't see why (as implied) an organiser should use their own earned money to keep a club afloat. The folk business is a "business" if you don't like it get out of the kitchen but you can't change the reality by wishing it were different.

Steve

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: RTim
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:01 PM

The Folk Society here in Woods Hole has the SAME charge every occasion (it is bi-weekly over the months excluding Summer, when it closes) - irrespective of the guest - and it is now in its 35th year - So it goes to show it does work.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:02 PM

Maybe we should let Dick argue it out with Greg with whom I largely agree except on the guaranteed minimum. We do our legwork. I don't see why we should guarantee an artist against their failure to bring in an audience (or to compete with the fake orgasm contest).

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:04 PM

The place I referred to charged the same cash at the door regardless who the performer was. The performer was paid 50% of the gross gate receipts. The manager had such a good rep that (to my knowledge) no one ever asked to check the gate or did an independent count of the audience.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:05 PM

The 'folk business' has moved house to the 'service industry', and marketing is very important.

I see what the Captain says as the ideal, surely.
But there are those that are achieving it.

I'm not talking necessarily about England, here; nor Scandinavia, neither for that matter.

It's a frame of mind by the venue owner and those around him/her about providing that service. Geography has nothing to do with it.
If you present it properly, and nurture it, then your chances of building up a decent venue increase.

The tweed coat brigade have long left the building.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:07 PM

RTim, do you pay all your guests the same or are you effectively stealing from the cheaper ones to pay the more expensive?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:08 PM

Maidenhead , one of the better small clubs in Southern England , has Two ticket prices ! A Singers night is half the price of a Guest night , so the Guest gets the agreed fee , even if there is only The Committe there on the night ! And the quality on a singers night is 'Orrid High !

And Banjiman - All you can do is hope you've got it right , in so far as Residents , parking , beer , accessibility and acoustics are concerned !

And I wish you success !

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: RTim
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:13 PM

I don't run the club, but I believe each Guest is guaranteed a percentage of the door if their agreed fee is not reached as part of their contract, and they also get community accomodation as part of the contract. They are also fed before each concert in a resturant across the street from the venue. So some MAY? take a lower fee because of that. Certainly, many many guests have appeared many times at the club over it's life, Bill Staines has been every year!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM

>>...even if that was a good situation...it takes time to get there, any suggestions what I do i the meantime with a new club? <<

Make sure you give them value for money and you do your homework on the artists you are booking. Keep to middle of the road performers in the beginning. Your audience are coming to be entertained whether they pay £3 or £15 to get in.
A smile on the face of the person greeting people and genuiness of wanting to look after your customers and your performers.
Over time, hopefully your audience will begin to trust you and keep on coming.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: RTim
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 07:29 PM

The question has not really been addressed (I don't think?) about what sort of Folk Club we are talking about here?
Woods Hole is a Concert Club - ie. The guest(s) appears and NO ONE else! There is NO opportunity at that club for local performers, no matter how good they may be, to perform.
I was brought up in England where the clubs had Floor singers AND guests, so that local singers/musicians had a some sort of avenue to play - and in my old Southampton club, if you were a resident singer, once every year you got YOUR night with a budget to invite who you wanted and providing you didn't overstep the budget - it was OK.
I Like that sort of arrangement better than a Concert club - because I feel it is more in keeping with the idea of Folk Music.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 07:49 PM

I would think, on the face of it, that it might only need a little extra consideration of the local community and hinterland, and the scheduling of that to make it function like you would like.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:06 PM

Nettlebed (45 mile drive) is a concert club - but most UK Clubs have floor spots

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:14 PM

The question about how you get more money has had an answer, not the only one, perhaps--but a good answer. You must build up a reserve, so that you can grow and improve--every good employer knows that in the long run, the better wages you pay, the better, and more consistant the work that you get is.

Some of you performers here seem to think that the house must give you every penny that is taken in, or you are being robbed. The fact is that the house is entitled to its share, which it is entitled to spend as it wishes, including paying other performers for other engagements--when you operate a venue, you must plan for, and invest in the future. A performer who demands the seed, so to speak, to my mind, both greedy and short sighted.

For a lot of my performing career, my day job was in advertising and marketing--and the principles in both worlds are the same--though managing a folk music venue is more challenging because aesthetics, rather than profit is your guide--and in the business world, no one questions your right to a share of the till.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:49 AM

and in the business world, no one questions your right to a share of the till.quote
Except the income tax man.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: joseph
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:59 AM

I never read such bull**** in Ireland the cream of musicians come together and play for free. Just for the love of Traditional music and Irish songs. Its my opinion if your good enough and prepared to travel you'll get plenty of work. Always remember that demand controls the market and the price

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:44 AM

M.Ted, your original suggestion was "If the wages were higher all around". So you are saying I should build up a reserve to pay people more by paying them less?