In Search of Nic Jones CD

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:11 AM

A quick check on the original sleeves...
and every title on all four of Nic's first albums
shows that they are all Trad Arr Jones and no other composer/writer to account to/for.

True fans should note....
CDRs of the 'missing' albums are being sold.
The Jonses family do not approve of their slae.
They get NO monies as a result of any sales.
There are (stress) NO CDs/CDRs of these 4 albums out there that
the Jonses approve of, or will benefit from.
However much you might desire these albums, DO bear that in mind should you purchase them.
They are...
Nic Jones.
Ballads and Songs.
Noahs Ark Trap.
Devil To A Stranger.

..and as I said above -(just a personal stance) I would advocate you DON'T buy them
until the matter is resolved if you really have Nic's interests at heart.
- Duncan

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:30 AM

Still wondering about the audio stream on the site mentioned in the Little Musgrave thread.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:51 AM

I am not sure that my point has got through.

1. Would the ARRANGER's rights necessarily have been signed away by the performer? - I don't think so, but I am not a lawyer. I believe that anyone else using these arrangements (and in some cases tunes) would have to make some royalty payment to the owner of the copyright. Does that hold for the issued sound recordings?

2. Therefore, as far as I can tell, whoever issues CDR's should be paying at least the arranger's royalties.

3. The MCPS collect these royalties on behalf of the copyright owner, and base their distribution on the number of copies created.

4. MCPS know exactly how many are pressed, if genuine CD's but they have no way to count the number of CDR's burned. This has been put forward as a reason for CDR in the first place. I believe it is not too expensive to get proper CD's pressed in the small quantity which a folk release would require (I am sure have seen quotes for 500 or 1000.)

5. If the MPCS logo is not present, then they have obviously not been paid, therefore the copyright owners will not get anything.

6. If it is present, then MCPS should know how many are created.

7. If the MCPS find that someone is not paying up on just ONE CDR issue, how many of their other members are also being cheated by the same organisation? Would the MCPS take action? They have deeper pockets than the composers, and exist to enforce their members' rights anyway.

SO do the CDR's in question have the MCPS logo? So far, no-one has answered that question.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:24 AM

The Celtic CD-Rs I have seen do not have an MCPS imprint. This indicates that accurate returns for the purpose of calculating mechanical royalties are not being made. As CM does not (at last time of checking) hold an MCPS licence for CD pressing (indeed they no longer have a pressing plant), it is rather difficult to say they are doing anything actually illegal. Borderline, yes.

As far as arranger/composer rights are concerned, these are calculated and due royalties distributed by the PRS. In one specific instance, a former Trailer artist was quite astonished to receive a royalty cheque (being 50% of that due) in respect of airplay for a CD-R reissue of his first album (the other 50% went to the "publisher", a Mr D Bulmer as in the original contract). It was the first he knew that Bill Leader's former plugger was burning his work and selling it. Is this illegal? Dubious. It's not nice though.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:39 AM

You say:
"As CM does not (at last time of checking) hold an MCPS licence for CD pressing (indeed they no longer have a pressing plant), it is rather difficult to say they are doing anything actually illegal. Borderline, yes."

Not a criminal offence but a civil one, I think, and the perpetrator can be sued.

If there is anything on the CD(R) to which MCPS (or their members)have rights, and there is no MCPS logo, then there is clear evidence of wrongdoing and they can take legal action to recover the amount due.

If we look at all the CDR issues, for all artists, then we might well find something to act upon. Song and arrangement copyrights are notoriously difficult to research, including folk songs. Look at Paul Simon and Scarborough Fair, as one example.

PRS are for PERFORMING rights, MCPS for PUBLISHING as I understand, so the PRS would not be interested here.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:55 AM

The MCPS exists to protect mechanical copyright and the onus therefore rests with the physical producer of the CDs to declare how many are made.

The PRS protects intellectual rights when your music is performed, recorded or broadcast.

They both live in the same building.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 08:00 AM

Eaxactly.

My point is that if the MPCS ever find a CD or CDR without their logo, and on which they have rights over some of the material, then they have cause to take action.

If I am wrong, then why do I bother to pay MPCS fees on CDR's which my wife makes.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:25 AM

The sad thing is that while the 4 Nic Jones Leader LPs remain in this semi-limbo state the easiest way to acquire them is courtesy of Rapidshare or via torrent. A lot of people feel that so long as they're not legitimately available then downloading them is sort of okay

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:29 AM

To pavane

You are nearly correct about the duties etc of MCPS but they are, like the MU (for instance) a rather toothless old dog.

CM (if they have "put into distribution" an item which in itself infringes copyright) or indeed anyone infringing copyright commits a CRIMINAL offence quite aside from any civil action brought by a third party. The Copyright Designs and Patent Act of 1986 details all the relevant ways of infringement and the penalties for doing so.

From what I am led to understand, the chances of MCPS doing anything whatsoever are limited to put it mildly. There are other routes to focus the attentions of actual and would-be infringers and that is in the first instance via the local Trading Standards department. If they can be convinced that infringing items are in existence, it is within their power to enter premises under an Anton Pilar order and "remedy" the situation.

We are all likely to evaporate before MCPS or PRS decamp from their cosy armchairs.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:38 AM

Oh well, another blind alley I suppose.

So who WOULD the arranger's (and composer's) rights belong to?
Would they have to be specifically assigned to someone?
If I wanted to record a song using Nic's arrangement (wish I had the ability!), or perhaps publish the arrangement as tablature, say, who would I pay the royalties to?

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:15 PM

If you wanted to record one of Nic's songs then providing it has been or is in "first distribution" you do not need any permission but as always it is courteous to gain that OK if you can. It is up to the person who then distributes that title to register the new performance with MCPS etc so that WHEN it is manufactured (by any means) the mechanicals royalties are accounted and collected. Reciprocal deals with other collecting agencies will then mean that royalties are collected and distributed properly from any territory in the World where the record is manufactured and sold.

The manufacturer of the "mechanical" piece (CD, Vinyl, tape etc) needs obtain a licence to manufacture and the granting of that licence, in the UK, has been gifted to the MCPS. If the title is not registered with MCPS by a composer/arranger member etc, the MCPS will have no interest in it and will not collect on behalf of the member concerned. That does not mean therefore that a royalty is not payable and the manufacturer will need to ensure that due arrangements have been made to pay the royalty to the publisher/author/arranger independently of the MCPS or risk procedings under the law. I think it goes without saying that the chances of being "done" other than by MCPS are remote as so many who SHOULD know better simply dont take care of their copyrights. They then become prey to Carion!!! You know what I mean, I am sure.

In short its a minefield where artistes etc are routinely rogered by unscrupulous individuals and companies simply because they fail to bother with such details.

There are also many cases where certain people have had the audacity to "claim" ownership of PD/Trad titles!! Does the MCPS care, nah. They will generally take the line of least resistance and pay out to the most audacious! This often happens when titles with the same name (but otherwise entirely different) are "claimed" by the better known "owner". Poor old Buck Owens lost out big time to the Presley writers for the song "Hot Dog" for instance.

There is no doubt that the best, safest and most honest way is to engage with the original writer/artist/publisher or its estate to ensure that copyright is acknowledged and that any recording deal is set up properly and is mindful of the obligation to remit the appropriate royalties.

Sorry if that sounds like a lecture but its a topic very close to me and one I feel quite passionately about.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:18 PM

""nor is it constructive in any way that CD-Rs of Nic's work are being distributed."

Why not? "

the word immoral comes to mind, not ilegal but immoral, and if I say anymore, well, I just might regret it. I will, however, discourage people from purchasing from Camsco Music

Charlotte (will purchase directly from Nic and Julia and skip the middle men)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:44 PM

(Sigh)
As I've said on many occasions before, if any artist feels that he or she is being deprived of royalties that he or she is entitled to from any recordings that CAMSCO sells, all that he or she needs do is contact me, and I'll pay the royalty. So far, no applicants.

I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else. I'm also a bit bemused by the concept that an artist can somehow "sanction" or "approve" the release of any recording unless there was a failure to live up to a contract by the producer of the recording.

I also fail to see why CD-Rs --the only medium in which this limited-volume material can afford to be produced economically--is "bogus".

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:00 PM

Take the example of one artist whose cleaner turned up at his house one morning with a CD-R she'd found in a well-known high street retailer and asked what he knew about it.
Answer: Nothing.
It had been sneaked out without even telling him, and NOT by the producer but the current rights owner.
Why no publicity? And, indeed, why no mechanicals payment following the release?
This is the sort of charlatan Dick Greenhaus chooses to do business with.
This is merchandise which ought not to be touched with the proverbial boat manouvring object.
Anyone who does should not be surprised at being held in total contempt.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: BB
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:31 PM

Dick said:
"I also fail to see why CD-Rs --the only medium in which this limited-volume material can afford to be produced economically--is "bogus"."

Pavane had already said:
"I believe it is not too expensive to get proper CD's pressed in the small quantity which a folk release would require (I am sure have seen quotes for 500 or 1000.)"

Most folk labels of the likes of WildGoose, Fellside, etc. initially have 500, or at the most 1000, pressed at a time, and in the case of any Nic Jones recording, selling 500 would, I'm quite sure, be no problem at all. Ralphie, you probably know what the sales of 'In Search of Nic Jones' and 'Unearthed' have been, just to prove the point. I know that the likes of Wildgoose and Fellside don't *just* produce CDs for the love of it, but to make at least some profit. Pity CD can't do it the same way - and they don't have the initial recording costs either!

Barbara

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:35 PM

Oh Mr Greenhaus why oh wy do I hear the words and music of Warren Zevon's immortal song......


I lay my head on the railroad track
And wait for the double-E
The railroad don't run no more
Poor, poor pitiful me
}
Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me
These young girls won't let me be
Lord have mercy on me
Woe is me

Well I met a girl in West Hollywood
And I ain't namin' names
Well, she really worked me over good
She was just like Jesse James

She really worked me over good
She was a credit to her gender
She put me through some changes, Lord
Sort of like a Waring blender

Poor, poor poor me
Poor, poor pitiful me


I met a girl at the Rainbow Bar
She asks me if I'd beat her
She took me back to the Hyatt House
I don't want to talk about it

Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me


Charlotte (will purchase directly from Nic and Julia and skip the middle men)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:37 PM

The issue is not the medium in which CM reissues are produced but whole manner in which it is done.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:30 PM

"The issue is not the medium in which CM reissues are produced but whole manner in which it is done."


tantamount to downloading and burning from one of many music download sites on the internet, to me it's exactly the same thing. The lazy persons way of obtaining music...and who pays the price? The artist who's receiving absolutely nothing at all. And "Mr" Greenhaus doesn't see problem? HA!!!

Charlotte (will purchase directly from Nic and Julia and skip the middle men)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 04:05 PM

if the artist in question is entitled to royalties--and that entitlement is determined by contractual agreement--all he has to do is let me know and I'll make sure he gets his royalties from anything CAMSCO sells.

It's fairly obvious that there isn't any sizeable market for old Leader recordings--if there were, I'm sure Mr. Bulmer would have issued them. Unless you believe that he's holding them back, and losing all that income, just to be spiteful..

Leader re-issues are a trivial part of my annual sales. I carry them because a few customers want them, and because I hate to see good music become unavailable.

"It had been sneaked out without even telling him, and NOT by the producer but the current rights owner.
Why no publicity? And, indeed, why no mechanicals payment following the release?"

Well, the current rights owner, by definition, is the one who currently owns the rights. Mechanicals generally refer to automatic payments to copyright holders by folks issuing cover recordings..not applicable here. As to why no publicity, I have no idea. It certainly can't be attributed to motives of greed by CM.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 04:15 PM

From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 04:05 PM

ain't rationalization wonderful....?

Charlotte (will purchase directly from Nic and Julia and skip the middle men)

Mollie Music Mail Order

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 04:52 PM

We used to have problems surrounding the early Nic Jones recordings, now we have "isyous"!!!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

Charlotte, Dick has tried to do the right thing to the best of his ability. He asks questions, and he gets nothing but snotty (but otherwise meaningless) answers in return. I know there is quite a bit of ill will, and much of what Bulmer is alleged to have done makes no sense whatsoever.

If an outsider asks what it's all about and gets a dismissive, rude or otherwise unhelpful comment, it looks like nothing more than a feud. If there's more to it than that (and I know there is), surely you can provide some support for your side. Lacking that, it sounds like your main point is that Mr Bulmer is a big stinky poopie-head, and that's why you shouldn't buy CDs from Dick, even if Dick has said he'd pay royalties out of his own pocket.

Any way you cut it, if you want the Mollie Music CDs and live in the UK, it probably makes more sense to get them from Mollie Music.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:15 PM

"We used to have problems surrounding the early Nic Jones recordings, now we have "isyous"!!!"

nope...we have BIGGER problems

"if you want the Mollie Music CDs and live in the UK,"

wrong, I don't live in the UK..but I'd still rather pay the extra and deal directly with Nic and Julia.

"Mr Bulmer is a big stinky poopie-head"

your description, not mine.

to quote Diane

"The issue is not the medium in which CM reissues are produced but whole manner in which it is done."

and those who are too readily willing to go along with it.


Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:23 PM

You could just come out and SAY you're incapable of explaining it, you know!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:35 PM

"You could just come out and SAY you're incapable of explaining it, you know!"

the whole of the sorry Dave Bulmer saga has been re-iterated many, many times and I'm not about to repeat it. The threads are still there if you want to read them

The Dave Bulmer Saga Part 678

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Mollie Music Mail Order

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 09:25 PM

Hi Barbara (A Few posts ago)
Sadly, I don't know the sales figures of "In Search" and "Unearthed"
What I do know is that the monies provided from the sales of those two releases helped the family greatly.
Why do you think I spent an awful lot of time working on said project. (And am still doing so....)
Considering the high regard that Nic is held in, and the continuing sales of Penguin Eggs et al, not to mention the award that he recieved from the BBC last year, So, Just think how much money has been denied him over the last 25 years by a certain person who will not do the deal....
Can't get my head around that one.
The only good thing about this thread is that it keeps the issue alive.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm in for the long haul on this one.
As for Mr Greenhaus. I understand your position as a business man, but, with due respect, don't deal wirh Bulmer. I know you think that the music should be available.......I agree.....
But it should be done in the right way.
You probably can't understand the feelings of us Brits concerning Nic.
Don't get into bed with Bulmer, Please.
Must go, got more editing to do.
Regards to all Ralphie

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 09:37 PM

Just to re-Iterate

Nic Jones Available CDs

Penguin Eggs (Topic)
Game, Set, Match (Topic)
In Search Of (Mollie)
Unearthed (Mollie)

Nic Jones NOT Available recordings

Nic Jones (1st LP)
Ballads and Songs
Noahs Ark Trap
From The Devil To a Stranger

Is that clear?

Ralph (who really should know better, but hey....)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:26 PM

Ralphie-(and others)
I can only repeat what I said (though I don't think it's anything unclear)

As I've said on many occasions before, if any artist feels that he or she is being deprived of royalties that he or she is entitled to from any recordings that CAMSCO sells, all that he or she needs do is contact me, and I'll pay the royalty. So far, no applicants.

I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else. Would someone care to explain this?


Certainly my recommendations are for Penguin Eggs, Unearthed and Game Set and Match (and, somewhat less enthusiastically for In Search Of--I don't think it's musically as good as the others.) But for those who purchase these, and still crave more of Nic Jones' music, I also carry Nic Jones and Ballads and Songs. If Nic is entitled to royalties on these releases, he has but to let me know, and I'll pay them.

It sounds to me that the objective of Charlotte and Diane and the rest of that fervid crew is to, in some strange way, punish Bulmer. Aside from not accomplishing anything, it doesn't help Nic Jones or any of the other artists involved.

And, just to keep the record straight, my motivation in making these CDs available has nothing to do with being a businessman--if I were, I
wouldn't be selling folk muic CDs.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:49 AM

My reference was not in fact to Nic Jones but to Barry Dransfield who suffered financial loss in the 90s recession when his instrument repair business went under. While Bulmer has, inexplicably, relented in just a few isolated cases and allowed certain artists to re-release their own material, mostly he (and his sidekick Neil Sharpley) have not and have been deliberately obstructive. Why? Who knows but the answer sure lies not in business practice but in the realms of psychology.

This is why Tony Rose re-recorded some of his favourite songs on Bare Bones shortly before his death, just to get them out there. It's why Topic put out Shining Bright, a re-recording by various artists of the songs of Mike & Lal Waterson's Bright Phoebus. There's a stack of rare archive material (see the Leader entry on the MusTrad site for a full catalogue) from other traditional artists no longer with us mouldering in some Harrogate shed. Efforts by independent labels to do deals and get it remastered and released have been rebuffed. Most recently, CM even tried to prevent by injunction the release of Topic's Game Set Match, the recording which paid for Nic Jones' much-needed knee operation.

Punish Bulmer? No, I don't give a toss about someone I have not seen for 30 years. I want artists to have a fair deal (those who are still left) and for the world to be able to hear all this wonderful music. In the meantime, Mr Greenhaus must surely see why he ought not to touch Bulmer's tainted, tatty CD-Rs. And the BBC should know better than to advertise his mail order company on their website. What goes around comes around. Eventually.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:21 AM

When I look through my collection of vinyl albums, I find that a significant proportion are in the 'Bulmerised' category, including folk album of the year 1970 (Rout of the Blues, Dransfields), Nic's first four albums, Peter Bellamy, Mick Tems, and so many more that I could list. But someone has already done that in another thread.

As noted above, various artists took to re-recording or even bootlegging their own recordings.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 05:17 AM

Just out of curiosity, are the "Ballads & songs" and "Nic Jones" CDRs vinyl rips or do they sound like they were taken from the masters? Free Reed got some pristine-sounding tracks from "Rout of the blues" and "Lord of all I behold" for their "Up to now" CD, so we can at least hope that the master tapes are still in usable condition

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM

I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else. Would someone care to explain this?

I'm addressing the anti-Bulmer jihad, now.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unBulmerised Apprentice
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:06 PM

it doesn't help Nic Jones or any of the other artists involved"

or Ashley Hutchings - The Wildside of Town (Celtic Records)
plus I think there was an Albion Band record on Dambuster.

John Kirkpatrick - Jump at the Sun (Leader)

Dave & Toni Arthur - Hearken to the Witches Rune

Muckram Wakes - Muckram Wakes, Map of Derbyshire

Robin and Barry Dransfield - Rout of the Blues

Mike and Lal Waterson - Bright Phoebus

Derek and Dorothy Elliott

Unto Brigg Fair - Joseph Taylor

I could go on, but I believe I've made my point. You want more?Examine the Leader Discograpy at Rod Stradling's Muscial Traditions website and see what is been hidden away all these years.

Charlotte (Bulmerised...I love that word!)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:17 PM

" so we can at least hope that the master tapes are still in usable condition"

we can only hope that the environmental conditions wherein the masters are being kept are optimal.

"I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else"

It isn't benefitting anyone under the current conditions.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:18 PM

Except the income from the CDR's into CM.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:23 PM

"Except the income from the CDR's into CM."

exactly!

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,HFA at work
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:22 PM

Quote 1,
'to keep the record straight, my motivation in making these CDs available has nothing to do with being a businessman--if I were, I wouldn't be selling folk music CDs.'

Then don't sell the disputed CDs then - you clearly don't want to make financial gain from others misfortune, do you!

Quote 2,
'I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else.'

There is an ongoing dispute.
Selling 'those' CDRs NOW - with NO funds going to the Jones or the other affected artists, or their estates,
WILL affect sales in the future, should the situation be resolved in those artists favour, even if only in part.
Who knows, some amicable agreement may result where Bulmer, retailers - AND the artists get SOMETHING at least!
Knowing there IS a dispute - why coin anything in now if you don't really care about making financial gain?

Specifically in Nic's case - Those of us who care for Nic, knowing he cannot re-record, or perform and make a living as he could once, would rather the music was 'on hold' rather than sold NOW - making only YOU and Bulmer money, and Nic not a penny.
It seems callous to make money while you can, on the back of someone elses misfortune.

Quote 3,
'I'm addressing the anti-Bulmer jihad, now.'

A low swipe, this. Pity.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:29 PM

Quote 3,
'I'm addressing the anti-Bulmer jihad, now.'

Oh, I see, so we're all folk-terrorists now, are we? a low swipe indeed, and typical to identify your opponents with the latest menace to society...in the 50's it would have been the communists wouldn't it?
I was thinking, when I awoke this morning, that perhaps I may have been a wee bit too harsh, yesterday, I can see now I wasn't.

Charlotte (off on a folk haj to Cecil Sharp House)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:39 AM

I think it's deeply unfair to refer to people who are concerned about how Nic Jones and others have been treated by Celtic Music as a 'jihad'.

No-one's announced a fatwah against Mr Bulmer. They just want him to do a deal with those concerned to get the Jones recordings back in the public domain in a way that ensure everyone gains - the Jones, Dave Bulmer himself and Nic Jones' current and future generations of fans. On paper, it doesn't seem that difficult. In the meantime, if the Joneses don't want people to sell or buy the Celtic Music CDrs until a satisfactory solution has been agreed on, it doesn't really hurt anyone in the folk world to respect their wishes, does it? As you say yourself, Dick, you don't exactly shift many copies.

A proper, above-the-radar, bells and whistles reissue, maybe in partnership with a label with a decent promotional budget, would surely make Mr Bulmer more money than his current, slightly under-the-counter approach to marketing does? It would also instantly turn him into a folk hero.

Having said that, in the past, comments have been made about Dave Bulmer on Mudcat that are extremely personal and insulting. Whilst passions may run high, this is a totally daft strategy and helps no-one: anyone with even the most basic understanding of psychology should realise that attempting to back someone into a corner isn't going to make them do what you want them to do - quite the opposite, in fact.

Anyway, let's hope this can be sorted out whilst some of the key people involved are still with us!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Neil, Fish Records UK
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:37 AM

Have been following this thread with interest and decided to chip in.

We've been working with Nic & Julia for almost 10 years now, selling all of the self released albums - it works well as it offers people the chance to buy discs using cards, and it opens up a wider market than the UK.

We've been offered the CD-Rs of the first couple of albums, I declined to carry them. Not because I thought they weren't commercial (far from it) but for the ethical reasons well documented here.

I really don't want to get into arguments with individuals here, but I think the discussion about the demand for ANY release from Nic needs to be addressed.

There is a strong demand for anything from Nic, to back that up I'm happy to discuss figures from my point of view.

We've sold well over 1700 copies of Unearthed and ISONJ (combined), and that's just through Fish and not counting the copies Nic & Julia sell. Both Topic releases continue to sell well too.

There's no reason to suggest that ANY re-issue of the missing 4 albums wouldn't sell at least as well as this....I'd take any suggestion from someone saying they're struggling to sell copies with a huge pinch of salt.

There certainly is a market for the discs, and when they finally do see the light of day in an official format, I think the demand for them will be incredible....in the interim people have a choice to make - either get the first two albums in CD-R form, or do the right thing and wait for an official release (whenever that may be).

Neil
Fish Records

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 03:21 PM

"whilst some of the key people involved are still with us"

unfortunately it's a bit late for Lal Waterson. God Bless Her.


Neil
Fish Records

Neil thanks so much for the imput I'm glad you finally "chipped in" and have given the Fish Records point of view. I was unfamiliar with your label until one poster mentioned it on this thread.:-)

"We've been offered the CD-Rs of the first couple of albums, I declined to carry them. Not because I thought they weren't commercial (far from it) but for the ETHICAL reasons well documented here."

well put, perfectly clear, succinct.

Now...are there any further questions?

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 04:23 PM

I have this - might Nic Jones want to clean it up and release it?

Nic Jones - Teatro Bonci, Cesena, Forlì, Italy, December 17th 1981, from master.

Disc One, Set One :

1. Seven Gypsies
2. Petronella (instrumental dance tune)
3. The Ruins By The Show
4. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
5. Fiddle Jig : The Lannigan Ball
6. Guitar Jig (instrumental dance tune)
7. Rockin' The Baby
8. Fishing For
9. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
10. Instrumental Reel Tune
11. Farewell To The Gold

Disc Two, Set Two :   

1. The Trees
2. Canadee I O
3. The Little Heathy Hill (instrumental)
4. Billy Don't You Weep For Me
5. Lord Franklin
6. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
7. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
8. Yamato Town
9. Monday Morning

Encores :

10. This Summer I Went Swimming
11. Guitar Jig (instrumental)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:22 PM

There's one thing that Dick Greenhaus keeps repeating and that (unless I missed it) no one arguing against him has addressed: "If Nic is entitled to royalties on these releases, he has but to let me know, and I'll pay them."

Until those arguing against DG address this offer of his, they won't have convinced me of their case.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:35 PM

"they won't have convinced me of their case"

I'm not out to convince anyone...it's soley my personal opinion. Neil from Fish Records has addressed the issue perfectly

"If Nic is entitled to royalties on these releases, he has but to let me know, and I'll pay them."

funny...he didn't start making that claim till a good three-quarters of the way into the thread..so please forgive my cynicism.....

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:43 PM

Charlotte, you're a bit late to all of this.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:40 AM

The aforementioned Nic Jones titles on the Leader label are available from CAMSCO. If anyone has any reasonably firm evidence that royalties are not being paid (assuming that original contracts provided for such royalties), please let me know.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:50 PM

Gerry - it's been addressed. The Joneses are apparently opposed to Celtic's CDr reissue of the albums and apparently no acceptable terms for payment of royalties in respect of that reissue have been agreed. Dick's offer, although undoubtedly sincere, is not what the Joneses apparently say they want, and in any case in the scheme of things won't make much difference, as he is only one retailer who by his own account doesn't actually sell that many copies. It could also be argued that if the Joneses went along with Dick's offer they'd be giving legitimacy to the reissue by accepting payments in relation to it.

I keep using the word 'apparently' in this as my understanding of the situation is based on what I've read and what I've been told by third parties rather than being first hand.

I think there is a serious discussion to be had with Dick and other retailers about this issue, but I'd hate to see a person who provides an otherwise excellent service vilified over his current stance and would urge the use of restraint and reasoned argument. Obviously, those very close to the situation may not feel the same way, but a big old rumble on Mudcat isn't going to help anyone...

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM

Dick Greenhaus is not (unless I have a wholly outdated and distorted view of what what actually goes on in Harrogate) the piggy- bank holder/finance director or whatever you want to call it with responsibility for paying a licence fee to the MCPS as CM ought by law to be doing to cover their clandestine CD production runs.

What he does is run a retail music shop/record stall or possibly sells CDs out of his car boot in the US. It may be a jolly fine gesture to boast a willingness to shell out the missing royalties but this goes nowhere in "legitimising" CM's business practice.

What the artists want is for their work to be made available in an above-board and equitable manner and the way for this to be achieved is for Mr Bulmer to just do the deal and sell back the rights.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:35 PM

"Charlotte, you're a bit late to all of this.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:40 AM

The aforementioned Nic Jones titles on the Leader label are available from CAMSCO. If anyone has any reasonably firm evidence that royalties are not being paid (assuming that original contracts provided for such royalties), please let me know"

I'm not convinced at all, because as Diane has quite correctly stated Mr. Greenhaus'"jolly fine gesture (I only call friends by their first names)to boast a willingness to shell out the missing royalties and his apparent concern for, in this case Nic Jones, goes nowhere in "legitimising" CM's business practice. I firmly believe that Nic and the others I listed a few posts back would love to have the rights for their work(s) returned/sold back to them. Can Mr. Greehaus facilitate this? I think not. So until this occurs, as I said, please forgive my cynicism.

Charlotte (the view from ma and Pa's piano stool

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM

Hi Bonzo3Legs.
I'm sure that Nic and Julia would love to have copies of this Italian gig.
I did know of it at the time of Unearthed, but, it dropped off the radar in the production stages.
I'm only guessing, but, I don't know of any plans for more retrospective releases,
I think the feeling is that the three that are legally out there will do for the time being.
Time really to deal with the original problem that forced the re releases into existence.
So, If you'd like to forward the "Italian Job" (!) to the Joneses via the address on their website, I'm sure they would be delighted to add it to there collection.
Thank You
Ralph
PS, I will obviously assume that this recording won't appear anywhere else other than at the Jones' residence !!!!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 03:30 PM

"Italian Job"

nice title for the cd Ralphie, should it reach that stage (and we can only hope it will)

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)