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BS: responding to 'hate speech'
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: artbrooks Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:32 PM Ake, what Bee said is that there are, unfortunately, many places on the internet where one can indulge one's personal bigotry with the full approval of like-minded scum. At least while such haters are spewing in their corners, they aren't out inflicting themselves on people face to face." She expressed no judgment of any kind regarding individuals whose opinions of homosexuality differed from her own, but rather very clearly expressed an opinion on bigots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: akenaton Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:44 PM "She expressed no judgment of any kind regarding individuals whose opinions of homosexuality differ from her own" Is that so Art? |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Richard Bridge Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:45 PM So bigotry is OK so long as it is popular? Ake, with that point of view we would still have bear baiting and slavery. Dear Joy. Yes, I write quite a lot on worthwhile things. You are not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: artbrooks Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:56 PM Yes, Ake, that is so. If you disagree, please refer me to the specific comment, by date and time, in this thread, where she has said otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Bee Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:15 PM Akenaten, are you determined to wring an insult that is not there out of my post? You personally are not, in my experience, hateful or trollish. I believe, and I have stated frequently and strongly, that people who object to ss marriage - which this thread is not about - are wrong, are imposing their religious views on others, are failing to understand innate human behaviour, are failing to be kind, are failing to learn, are failing to be good observers, are categorizing unfairly, etc. I have not said they were expressing hate unless they were doing just that. There is hateful speech, about various defineable groups of humans. It spans from namecalling or snide remarks to blatant lies and out and out expression of violent thoughts. Sometimes it shows up on Mudcat. This discussion is about what we should/could do about it. If you are not saying hateful things, you have nothing to be bothered about. If I think something you have said is hateful, be assured I will let you know. What is your own definition of hateful speech/writing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: GUEST,Joy Bringer Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:17 PM Emma, your thread seems to be causing some disharmony among members. Possibly time you wrapped it up or maybe do a request to a moderator or Joe to delete it. Regarding the responses you had hoped for, maybe next time you will be more successful. Blessings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Sorcha Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:22 PM Joy, that has to be THE MOST OTT post I've seen from you yet. If you don't like Mudcat 'attitudes' why not just find another forum where you feel more at home? |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Sorcha Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:28 PM I'm sure you are well aware that MOST of us here are pretty liberal, left wing, etc...so, why in the HELL did you show up here just to spew your filth? We don't NEED it, we don't WANT it, and you, nasty troll baiter can just go far far away. Find yourself a Right Wing, CHRISTIAN form to post on...but IMO, that crap is hardly 'Christian'. There is the Turn the Other cheek directive, In my fathers house there are many mansions....Just do us all a HUGE favour and go the F away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Sorcha Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:36 PM Mods, clones, can something be DONE about the attacks on Emma in this thread? Please? |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: GUEST,Joy Bringer Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:36 PM Sorcha, if and when I require advice from you, be assured you will be the first to know. I haven't conversed with you on mudcat and have no desire to do so. Regarding your choice of handle, I think titling yourself intelligent and wise is a little OTT. Sorcha Oíche mhaith, codladh sámh |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:36 PM Every now and again you get a poster, normally coming in as a GUEST in respect of which the only sensible thing is to just scroll past their posts as if they just were not there. I think we've got one of these in this thread, and I suggest that scrolling past and ignoring the posts is the right thing to do. I know it can be tempting to reply, but it just serves to encourage the person to stick around. It's always possible to make any point that we might feel we have to make without overtly addressing such posters or directly commenting in what they might have written. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Sorcha Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:39 PM Hey, JB...I never ASKED YOU to show up on the Cat either....go away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Sorcha Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:43 PM And you seem to have got your Oirish wrong...means bright (light) or freedom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:21 PM There's always the problem of making some kind of a statement, and trying to be honest and sincere about it, and having somebody call it "hate speech" for the sole purpose of shutting you up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: GUEST,Joy Bringer Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:29 PM Good point Riginslinger thank you. Sorcha An ea ? Dear dear and there is silly me spelling "Freedom" Saoirse for all those years ! Cad é sin? I suggest you check it out intelligent one. Apologise in your own time. tuigim. Is mise, le meas |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: folk1e Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:09 PM I for one do not think it is the thread causing disharmony but one or two of the posts on it. With the right of free speach comes the responsibillity to use it wisely! I think we have a concensus here! |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: GUEST,Essay Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:18 PM Disharmony here seems pretty much limited to a minority of just one ... but I `guess` he / she is the Daily Mail reader. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Don Firth Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:54 PM Unfortunately, hate speech doesn't always stop with speech. In today's news. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Alice Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:00 PM I didn't see any shouting on Emma's part in this thread. I think what she has written has been very reasonable. I don't think Emma B should be chastised about what she has written. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Rapparee Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:21 PM Rapaire (should have an accent acute over the first a): m.: raipear (accents acute over the first a and the e): m: Rapier. Rapaire (without the accents): m.: ropaire: m. 1. Thruster, stabber; violent person...2. Cut-purse, robber; scoundrel...3. Hist.: Rapparee. Niall O Donaill, et al. Focloir Gaeilge-Bearla (Baile Atha Cliath: Oifig an tSolathair, 1977) "Rapparee", "highwayman" and "Tory" are names that ring with romance and danger. Place the "bold" or "Captain" before them and the image of the swashbuckling outlaw-adventurer is complete. He is handsome, dashing, brave, and willingly risks his life to help penniless widows facing eviction at the hands of tyrannical landlords. Stephen Dunford. The Irish Highwaymen. (Dublin: Wolfhound Press ed., 2005). I have both a rapier AND a small sword. Both are good steel and could be used in combat. Yes, I know how to use each effectively. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:27 PM We're in trouble now! |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Rapparee Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:29 PM Well, I kinda like the "handsome, dashing and brave" part...it fits me like a glove. A catcher's mitt, but hey! |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Peace Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:31 PM They are three of Santa's reindeer aren't they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Rapparee Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:43 PM Nah, they're 0.43 of the Seven Dwarfs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Don Firth Date: 28 Jul 08 - 10:06 PM The other four are Athos, Porthos, Aramis, and Fred. Don Firth P. S. But I always thought Cyranose de Burgersnack was in there somewhere. . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Rapparee Date: 28 Jul 08 - 10:28 PM Cyrano served as their coathook. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: GUEST,Joe Offer, at the Women's Center Date: 28 Jul 08 - 10:41 PM Bee says:
Now do you understand? Next time you respond to trolls, think what they're doing alone at home while they're reading your indignant response. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Richard Bridge Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:39 AM I feel it is important to tell bigots that they are unwelcome, and to convey the message to those against whom the bigotry is expressed that that bigotry is rejected. I think that that is more important than worrying that a troll is amused that he/she has caused annoyance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: GUEST,Joy Bringer Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM If that is true Joe, then it is sad and sinful. Have you evidence of such behaviour ? if so that is dreadful. Yes indeed Richard I agree. Anyone here to promote filth should be told in no uncertain terms they are not welcome. That is exactly what I have been saying all along. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Bryn Pugh Date: 29 Jul 08 - 06:05 AM That which Richard said, at 03.39 AM ; which post I endorse in its entirety. Moreover : that which Joe said, 28th July, at 10.41 PM, which post I endorse likewise in its entirety. With greatest respect to my Jewish friends on the 'Cat, and those Christian friends who abide by their prophet's injunction 'judge not lest ye be judged', I wonder if the likes of Joy Bringer (that's a corker, isn't it ?) live by the single commandment (Dylan Thomas, "Under Milk Wood") - THOU SHALT NOT ! I try and live by the adage of my Faith - "An it harm none, do what you will". |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Riginslinger Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:13 AM "Canada, England, France, Germany, the Netherlands, South Africa, Australia and India all have laws or have signed international conventions banning hate speech.'" I think people need to be very careful with this. Remember that guy--can't remember his name--who they threw in jail in Austria for denying the Holocaust? It seems very unwise to me for government to be punishing somebody for what they think, or even what they say they think. It's a case of one side becoming as repugnant as the other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Donuel Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:28 AM If you responded to the hate speech of Monica Goodling incorrectly, you were out of a job. Then whe made sure you couldn't get any other job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Riginslinger Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:18 AM I looked her up. She was a Conservative Christian and got her law degree from a university founded by Pat Roberson. That's hate speech just on the face of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Donuel Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:19 AM Those who play the hate game best often use hate as judo uses gravity. They will lie and attribute the very hate you work to overcome by whispering that you are the; racist, sexist, evil doer, unpatriotic, god hater... Then what do you do, if you defend yourself you are obviously being defensive and now you are suspiciously guilty. As Joe says, you must ignore. It is best to speak in terms so clear that the true nature of the issue ascends to cover everyone in the world with a deep sky blue clarity of truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Riginslinger Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:32 AM Yeah, I agree with Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Don Firth Date: 29 Jul 08 - 12:49 PM I do believe that hate speech should be challenged on the basis that silence can be construed as agreement. But one's response needs to stick to facts and reason, and not give in to the natural urge spawned by moral indignation to respond emotionally. A good rational argument against a piece of hate speech will often draw a string of personal attacks and insults, which will, more often than not, reveal the bigot's true colors for everyone to see. But don't get sucked into a slagging match. If you wrestle with pigs, you come up dirty. Let the bigot commit suicide with the same weapon that Samson used on the Philistines. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 Jul 08 - 02:34 PM there are millions of people who disagree with homosexual "marriage" for all sorts of reasons and many millions more who dislike the practice of homosexuality......They can't all be "hate spewing scum"...can they? Oh yes they can - and furthermore, they are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Don Firth Date: 29 Jul 08 - 02:54 PM I do not think there are that many millions of people who obsess on the matter. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: akenaton Date: 29 Jul 08 - 02:56 PM I rest my case! |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Don Firth Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:14 PM My post just above was in answer to what you said, Ake. I don't think there are that many people who even give it much thought. But those who obsess about the sexual practices of other people and get all "disgusted," like some folks on this and the other thread--well, they are the ones with the problem. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: akenaton Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM Sorry Don I cross posted. I was responding to Insane B. In response to your post, I would say that worldwide there are many many millions who think deeply about homosexual marriage, certainly within the Catholic Church and the Scottish Presbyterian Church. Discussions on Homosexuality itself used to be commonplace but since the practice became "politicised" people tend to keep their thoughts to themselves.. The rights issue is of course nothing to do with whether the practice is disgusting or not. Although I think most heterosexual people do feel disgust viewing or even discussing the homosexual act. Are people who call others "hate spewing scum" for holding a different opinion, not as bad as those who are indeed "homophobic"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:40 PM "They can't all be "hate spewing scum"...can they?" "Oh yes they can - and furthermore, they are." Insane Beard, it is good to know that a new definition of 'disagree' is 'hate-spewing scum'. I'm writing to Websters, et. al to make sure they know it, too. What a maroon!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Sorcha Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:45 PM "In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist; And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist; And then they came for the Jews, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew; And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up." Attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:05 PM Whatever the reason (or excuse) for such feelings, the result is the same old moronic self-serving disgust. Hatred is hatred, whatever sort of face you want to put on it; hide it behind the face of religion and it becomes something worse - justified hatred. Whatever theological clap-trap is served up by the Roman Catholic Church or the Scottish Britney Spears remains exactly that, theological clap-trap, with no bearing on reality other than to perpetuate what is, at best, a quaint superstition with about as much bearing on reality as Harry Potter. To disagree with the right of another human being to be what they are goes way beyond simply expressing an opinion, it's challenging the most fundamental right of human existence. Challenge that, for whatever reason, and you challenge everything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: akenaton Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:25 PM Your opinion of religion is very cloce to my own Insane B. But others have different opinions are their opinions to be dismissed as "claptrap". I know literally dozens of people who have a "belief" As Joe said they are not all mad or bad. "To disagree with the right of another human being to be what they are goes way beyond simply expressing an opinion, it's challenging the most fundamental right of human existence. Challenge that, for whatever reason, and you challenge everything" Dont forget Insane B, that if we all embraced homosexuality, humanity would CEASE to exist....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: beardedbruce Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:28 PM "that if we all embraced homosexuality, humanity would CEASE to exist....Ake " And if we all truely embraced RC, and became celibate priests, the same would occur as well. So? |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: akenaton Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:30 PM Come on BB The last thing the Catholic Church wants is its flock to become celibate :0) Thanks for the laugh on the other thread BTW...Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: beardedbruce Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:37 PM And the last thing that homosexuals want is for the entire world to become homosexual. Like MOST minorities, they want to be allowed to pursue their own interests and NOT tell others what to do. It is usually the majority that insists on imposing a single viewpoint on everything. There are various SF books that explore the function ( and continued reproduction) of envisioned "homosexual ( single sex) worlds- both male and female. You should read them- most are thoughtful, detailed looks at a societal structured as none are today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: GUEST,lox Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:39 PM "And the last thing that homosexuals want is for the entire world to become homosexual." ... the only gay in the village ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: responding to 'hate speech' From: GUEST,lox Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:41 PM the only gay in the village |