Origins: Sean South of Garryowen (Sean Costelloe)

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 02:52 PM

"
Robin, Don't worry about it. I remember a part of another verse, (probably the 6th verse)
"

Thanks, Jimmy -- I really should remember not to post when I've been hitting the Bells.

"
Come on now Mary, can I run ye Hame,
ho Ho Ho, I've got a pair of sand shoes ?
Ha Ha Ha, You're hell of a funny
CLO and the OJ.

"

... it (well, one version) reads, "... got a pair o sannies".

Somewhere, I've what is purportedly the earliest version. Hamish Whyte (re)published it in Noise and Smoky Breath/Mungo's Tongues (an anthology of poems either closely or vaguely connected with Glasgow -- I had a poem in it where the +only+ connection with Glasgow was the title: 'The Girl I Met in Byres Road'. In the wake of that, I snailmailed Hamish to see what he had, and he sent me some stuff not included in the anthology.

If I have the energy, I'll try and put together what I've got (there's a long and funny glossing in Donald Saunders' _A Glasgow Diary_) and check it against the DigiTrad text.

Mostly, the references are pretty transparent (though as far as I know, I'm the only person ever to make the connection between the late fifties / early sixties Sunday Post obsession with the French Foreign Legion.

The major textual crux (heh, heh!) is whether it should read Lanliq or VP. I could look this up, I suppose. As Matt McGinn ...

... OUCH!! Freudian slip. Hamish Imlach. As far as I know, there isn't a recording of Matt McGinn singing it. Or am I wrong on this? Hope I am.

... sings it, it's VP, but then it was Carl McDougal what wrote it.

The obscure bit is the title itself -- Codliver Oil and the Orange Juice. Best bet on this is that these were provided free to expectant mothers (including Hairy Mary) in the fifties.

Off to drown my tendency to irrelevance in more Bells.

Hm ... See I already said all this, slightly drunkenly, earlier. Shows why I get ticked off for irrelevancy.

;-)

Robin

(Incidentally -- I'm too lazy to look this up -- is there a text of "Wee Johnny Lost his Johnny / Wae Doon the Broomilaw" lodged in DigiTrad?

R2.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 03:12 PM

Robin, I think you're spot on re the origins of cod liver oil and the orange juice: that's the most interesting thing on this thread so far:I had never thought of it, or thought too much about it. Hey, Hamish Whyte: I used to know him well, worked together in the Mitchell Library. Jimmy: you did great job of rendering a song in a foreign language, and from memory too.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 04:52 PM

Big Tim:

"
Hey, Hamish Whyte: I used to know him well, worked together in the Mitchell Library.
"

Think he's still there (curator of the Rare MS Collection). Hamish and I were at school (Hutchie) thegither, but ... this is bloody odd ... nine year old entrants (me) and eleven year olds (him) didn't seem to mix.

Then we were at Uni thegither. BUT (again) ... This was at the height of The Glasgow Language Wars, and at that point, Hamish wasn't in the loop.

Then, of course, he turned into Eddie Morgan's Official Bibliographer, and started The Mariscat Press.

His latest poem is in the latest issue of _The Coffee House_. Last night, I was giving a joint reading with Debbie Tyler-Bennet (editor of The Coffee House)and she said, "You been in touch with Hamish recently?"

Answer is no, I have enough trouble remembering where my toes are located.

I'll see if I can at least dig out what Hamish sent me on the origins of CLO&OJ.

Bloody small world, i'n'tit?

Irrelevant Robin.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 04:57 PM

Robin: Hamish took early retirement about two years ago.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 06:34 PM

Tim:

"
Robin: Hamish took early retirement about two years ago.
"

Christ, whirligig o time -- Hamish is an age with me which makes him mid-fifties.

But is EVERYONE in the Whole Sick Crew going down that route?

Tom Allen (who was at Hutchie with the two of us) left his day-job to do sculpture.

God, in the sixties, you made a book on us, NOBODY (well, bar Tom and Hamish) would have their card marked, "survive".

Robin.

{Tim -- not codding -- ask Hamish.

R2.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 05:36 AM

The VP v Lanliq question is a matter of chronology. Originally the words were VP(Virgin's Pish) but when Hamish sang it he updated it to Lanliq which had by that time superseded VP as the most popular form of electric soup.
There is also debate as to whether glaschu does translate as dear green place. It may just mean grey flat place or something like that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 10:44 AM

Yes Joe, the place name is a bit of guess work: could also be "green hollow".

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 10:44 AM

Wee Johnnie's lost his Jaury(or Jorry), not Johnny. If I get time at the weekend I will put in the words.
Good Luck.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM

Right. First. Carl MacDougall writing in _Chapbook_ in 1966:

"
HAIRY MARY

THIS song was written in George Square, Glasgow, one Friday morning some so years ago by Ron Clark and I after we had missed our late-night buses. At that time, many versions of "The Virgin Mary" were being sung around the West of Scotland clubs, and we had heard it once too often that night at Paisley. Though it may seem sacrilegious, the original &raft was on the back of a volume of Joe Corrie's poems.

Although Ron and I sang it, to mixed receptions, at one or two clubs, the song was soon by N CLARK & forgotten and it lay dormant until almost four months after CARL MacDOUGALL its inception, when we taught
it to Archie Fisher

WHAT happened after that anyone's guess. In the transcription Archie altered Some of the words and the song was picked up at various clubs around the country. Now 1 am told localised versions exist Perth and Dundee as well as Kirkcaldy where, apparently, the "Hard man" comes from Dysart [?] and goes to the Burnt—island Palais. Someone took the song to London and a version has also been heard in Dublin.

CHAPBOOK would be interested to hear from anyone who knows such versions or others we may have missed. Tell ue where you heard it, from whom and if you know who put it together. We will acknowledge all letters received and print as many as we can. If you any variants, please send them to: CHAPBOOK, 34 MONTAGUE STREET, GLASGOW C.4.

CM

Oot o' the East there cam' a hard man,
A', a', a' the way frae Brigton.

CHORUS;

Oh, oh, Glory Hallelujah,
Cod Liver Oil an' the Orange Juice.

He went intae a pub an' he cam' oct paralytic;
Aw haw, V.P. an' cider.

Does this bus go tae the Denny Palais,
"Aw haw, I'm lookin' fur a lumber."

In the Palais he met Hairy Mary,
Aw haw, the flo'er o' the Calton.

He says tae her: "Hey hen are ye dancin?"
"Naw, naw, it's just the way I'm staunin' .

He says tae her: "Yir wan in a million."
"Aw haw, so's yer chances."

"Can I run ye hame, I've got a pair o' sannies,"
"Aw haw, ye're helluva funny."

Up the back close an' doon the dunny,
Naw, naw, it wisnae for the first time.

Her Maw came oot tae go tae the didgy,
Aw haw, he buggered off sharpish.

She tried the find the hard man,
He'd jined the Foreign Legion;
Aw haw, Sahara an' the camels.

So Hairy Mary had a little baby,
Haw, haw, its faither's in the Army.
"

Right. So the FIRST version reads VP an the cider and Hairy Mary is the floor o the Carlton.

Jump to that piss-artist, Cliff Hanley:

This is pretty-much the original version, so i won't transcribe it -- she's still the floor o the Calton.

Then _A Glasgow Diary_, which gives a few glosses:

"
Carl MacDougall is born just in time to get himself an income tax rebate. Hard to believe this smiling babe will one day so far forget himself as to be irrevocably connected with that disreputable street-ballad, greatly relished by the vulgar element, known as "Cod Liver Oil and Orange Juice". Indeed, many believe it to be a folksong of hazy and ancient origin;* however, we confirm it is wholly the handcrafted work of the aforesaid and present it here, as it were, from the horse's mouth:

COD LIVER OIL AND THE ORANGE JUICE

It was oot o the east' there came a hard man,2
Aw haw, aa the way fae Brigton.3

Chorus

Ah-ha, Glory Hallelujah,
The cod liver oil and the orange juice.4

He went intae a pub and he came oot paraletic,5
Aw haw, the VP6 and the cider.

Does this bus go tae the Denny Palais?7
Aw haw, Ah'm lookin fur a lumber.

In the Palais he met Hairy8 Mairy.
Aw haw, the flooer o the Calton.

He says tae her, Tell me hen9 are ye dancin?
Aw naw, it's just the wey Ah'm staunin.

He says tae her, You're wan in a million,'0
Aw haw, so's your chances.

Can Ah run ye hame? Ah've got a pair of sannies,'11
Aw haw, you're helluva funny.

Up the back close and doon the dunny,'12
Aw haw, it wisnae for the first time.

Oot came her maw tae go tae the didgy,"'
Aw haw, he buggered off sharpish.

She's - tried tae find the hard man,
he's jined the Foreign Legion,
Aw haw, Sahara and the camels.

So Hairy Mairy had a little baby,
Aw haw, its faither's in the army.

The theme does owe something to the American Spiritual "The Virgin Mary had a Little Baby".

Glossary of Terms:

        1        "East" — The percipient reader will note that our hero, in order to travel west from Brigton to the "Denny Palais" must first go west by north-west, veering north-easterly round about the Gallowgate. Such an indirect approach is frequently adopted by the "hard man" on a "Saturday night".

        2        "hard man" — One insensitive to the claims of heart and conscience, as distinct from the demands of the genitals and belly.
        3        "Brigton" — Site of the Battle of the Boyne.
        4        "cod liver oil and the orange juice" see 6.
        5        "paraletic" (a) 1. affected with, suffering from, or subject to paralysis; palsied: 2, of the nature pertaining to paralysis: 3, deprived or destitute of energy or power of         action; powerless; ineffective; characterised by impotence or powerlessness. (b) Drunk.
        6        "VP" — Whether of the ruby, white or tawny variety this reasonably priced colonial wine is at all times robust,congenial and well rounded, making up in hearty good spirits what it lacks in pedigree. Slight aftertaste but considerable after effect. Should be served straight from the pocket, slightly chambre, or alfresco with chips. Here it is imbibed contrapuntally with a "chaser" of wood-        alcohol "cider" in what has become a classic combination Some connoisseurs would argue, however, that the only accompaniment necessary is a good boke and "Same again, Jimmy".
        7        "Palais" — From "Palais de Danse Macabre". Dennis        MacAbre was its first manager.
        8        "Hairy" — Not hirsute as such but female. (Pron: Herry.)
        9        "hen" — Form of address used towards the fair sex. N.B "hairy" may be a "hen" but a "hen" cannot be "hairy" only "feathery" or in some instances, "plucked".
        10        "one in a million" — The complex mathematical equation contained in this stanza can be expressed as follows: where
                Y"Hairy Mairy" and X"your chances":
                               Y=l/1 ,000,000
                                  x>.Y
                          Therefore X>1/1 ,000,000.
        11        "sannies" — gutties.
        12        "dunny" — The communal stairs serving the Glasgow tenement rises from a communal passage called the "close" linking the street entrance with a rear entrance to the communal drying green or back. Where this yard or back is on a lower level than the street, the close will have steps descending to a sunken area anterior to the rear 13 entrance. This is the dunny. "it" — Signifies a characteristic delicacy of nuance, whereby any event of particular physicality and/or emotional intensity is not so much explicated within the texture of meaning of the verse, as alluded to with the obliquity of suggestion, like a fart in a thunderstorm.

"didgy" — midden.
"

Robin.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 04:18 AM

I have just remembered that Eddie Chisnall in his book The Bird In The Tree gives the meaning as Mungo's Church. Glas for church and chu for the second syllable of Mungo's name. I don't know what the scholars would make of it but it certainly makes sense as a place name.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 03:01 PM

From "Collins Encyclopaedia of Scotland", edited by John and Julia Keay, 1994.

"The etymology of the name of Scotland's largest city is warmly disputed. It's derivation is surely Celtic and probably Gaelic; but with anglicized spellings varying widely from "glas-chu" to "glas-cun", the component words are uncertain, let alone their precise meaning. In the heyday of 19th cent. industrialisation "glas" was taken to mean "grey", leading to such seemingly appropriate translations as "the grey blacksmith" ("gow" suggesting "gobha", a smith)or "the grey hound ferry" ("cu", a dog).

Currently the favoured derivations are more pastoral and cultural with "glas" taken to indicate "green" or a "church". Hence the popular "dear green place", "green hollow", "dear stream", "green cloister", "dear cloister", "church within the enclosed space", "church of Cun(tigernus) [Kentigern], etc".

A gift to the imagemakers, such uncertainty also accords well with the City's occasional need to reinvent itself."

That seems to cover most bases but it's a long, long way from Garryowen to here!

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 06:03 PM

The Dear Green Place ...

Been mooching around this, and the best I can get is:

"
glas

grey, Irish glas, green, pale, Early Irish glass, Welsh, Old Welsh, Breton glas, green: *glasto-, green; German glast, sheen (Bez.), root glas, to which German glass, English glass, are probably
"

... so the Gaelic has as the first element Gaelic "green".

(Where the fuck "dear" comes frae, god only knows.)

As for "cu" -- someone else wi better Gaelic than me can chase this. I'm totally bamjacked on it.

So the friggin "Dear [sic] Green Place" seems tae be a late nineteenth-century coignage.

Anyboy got a better call on this ... ?

:-(

Robin

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Jimmy C
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 08:54 AM

Hi Big Tim, looking at the definitions given by Robin, and some previous postings from the late LJC it sure does appear to be a foreign language indeed. It's wonderful how a simple posting about Sean South can end up discussing the origins of Glasgow and Hard Men etc. You were right when you said I recited what I knew about the song from memory, unfortunately my memory from those days is very cloudy indeed.The duo who sang the song in Toronto also had another one about the Glasgow gangs, maybe Robin or someone else will be able to supply the complete correct version. What I do remember went something like -
To the tune of Botany Bay



You've heard of the Billy and Sally
?????????????????????????

Here's some others to add to your tally
The Derry and the Cumberland boys


Now the Derry Boys are Roman Catholic
To Chapel they've been once or twice
And Parkhead is their new Jerusalem
And Jock Stein the latter days Christ


When asked what they think of religion
They say Och religions all right
But the only time they are religios
Is when they want an excuse for a fight



Anybody know this song ?.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 09:24 AM

I used to know that song. The Clutha sometimes sang it live. I recall some of your missing line Jimmy: "the Billy Boys? and the San Toi (or Toy, another gang)". A guy called James? Patrick wrote a book called "A Glasgow Gang Remembered" c. 1970. (He was a scholar, not a gangster). Anyone got that?                                                               

It seems that an authoritative definition of the meaning of "Glasgow" is probably now beyond us. The "dear" bit does seem to be an invention.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 10:17 AM

This is another song Hamish Imlach used to sing. It's on his first LP I think. It's Billys and Sallys and the second line is Norman Conks and San Tois. All Glasgow gangs. It ends up So don't wear a green scarf in Brigton or a blue scarf in Cumberland Street unless you're a heavyweight champion, or hell of a quick on your feet.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Jimmy C
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 03:24 PM

Thanks Tim and Moleskin Joe, can anyone remember any more ?. I think I may have it on an old LP by the " Bonny Scots" but can't lay my hands on it at the minute.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: The Derry and Cumberland Boys
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 06:19 PM

There's another Glesga thread with the lyrics: Click here

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 09:50 AM

Thanks Suannne, you German gem you! Here's another Glasgow "street song" from that era, nothing to do with gangs tho:

Last night there was a murder in the chip shop,
When a wee dug stole a haddie bone,
An' a big dug tried tae take it aff it,
So I hit it wi a tattie scone.

I went roon tae see ma Auntie Sarah,
Ma Auntie Sarah wisnae in,
So I peeped through a hole in the windae,
An I shouted "Auntie Sarah, are ye in"?

Her false teeth were lying on the table,
Her curly wig was lying on the bed,
An I nearly burst ma sides wi laughin,
When I saw her screwin aff her widden leg!

That's all I can recall, funtunately!

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 03:08 PM

From all I've heard of Sean South, he was a terribly serious, rather humourless young man who was killed in a hideous ambush in an operation that went horribly wrong.

He was a cousin, as it happens, of Gregory Peck. First cousin, I think, but I'm not sure, might be second cousin.

But if you want gay, look to the Irish Guards - according to a recent biography of Anthony Blunt, they were the gay prostitutes favoured by the crowd of upper-class British homosexuals Blunt hung out with - you went to a pub, can't remember the name, and chose an Irish Guardsman, and put a folded ten-bob note in his boot - if he accepted, he went round the back of the pub with you...

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 04:33 PM

JTT: where did you hear all that about SS?

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 04:45 PM

PS re Greg Peck; you're confusing SS with Thomas Ashe who died on hunger strike in 1918, ten years before SS was born.

Seriousness is surely no bad thing anyway: "deeply agreeable to the heart" according to Leonard Cohen.

Re "want gay": Me, I want people, who have some idea what they are talking about.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 05:33 PM

My mistake: Thomas Ashe died in 1917. SS was born on 8 February 1928.

Jimmy C: have you seen the 2001 NI census figures?

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Jimmy C
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:20 PM

Tim,
I just got a glimpse of the headlines, approx (54% protestant and 44% Catholic). I am still amazed that some unionists politicians feel that this is good news for them. Their majority has been steadily declining year after year, but they still insist that they have nothing to fear regarding an united Ireland.


The numbers are not what I expected to be sure, I was figuring on maybe 51% protestant and 47 % catholic. It does not really matter, the important thing is it shows a declining majority and hopefully this will be enough to make them realize that the best road open to them is the road to peace and reconciliation with their catholic neighbours, (before it's too late).
The numbers also could be a little suspect as people who declined to answer the religous question were assumed to be protestant or catholic based on their address.
It does show a much younger catholic population compared to the protestants, so it's only a matter of time really until the catholics have the majority, Whether this leads to a united country or not will I suppose depend on many factors at that time.
I'm just delighted to see that their bigoted, unjust and corrupt system is finally nearing it's end.
If only the hoops could come up with a string of victories life would be so much sweeter. Hail Hail.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:50 AM

According to the bbc (which I trust!), the figures are 53.1% Protestant, 43.8% Catholic. The projection is 50/50 in 20 years.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: iRiShBaBe
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 04:11 PM

The story of Sean South is that himself, and a 15 year old boy went to take the english on and lost. He thought it would be seen as heroic....

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 07:18 AM

A Monaghan friend informs me that Lathlurcan Cemetery is just a short walking distance from Monaghan Town, on the Dublin Road. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Vonny
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 03:22 PM

Hi folks
I just came across this thread. I am from Limerick and grew up knowing a lot about this fellow. I just returned from Limerick where on Sunday I went to a Sean South Commemoration march through Limerick City to the Republican Plot where he is buried.
Sean South was a friend of my grandfather also called Sean, though grandad was a lot older than South. My grandfather was one of the "Lorry Load" they were ambushed at Brookeborough county Fermanagh on New Years Day 1957. Granda later escorted souths body back to Limerick to be buried. I visited Brookeborough several years ago, its a small tidy town with a huge Orange Order Hall, I have the original IRA obits of both South and O'Hanlon framed on my wall, they were handed down to me from grandad. It gives Souths age as 28 but grandad always said he was 31 and O'Hanlans age as 20.I also have a picture of them marching in '56 up William Street in Limerick to the Limerick Prison with an "End Partition" banner. According to the old man, who died in 1991, they were a part of the "Border Campaigns" where they attacked border posts to try and end the partition that devided the 6 counties in the north from the rest of the country. It was said by my grandmother, but I have no proof, that O'Hanlons relative was dating a british soldier and pillow talk gave away the plans for the attack and so they were ambushed. South and O'Hanlon were shot dead. South was an ardent Irish Speaker and would insist that anyone he talked to at least tried to speak in Irish. He was not a homosexual as far as I know. He was about to marry a teacher. I know her name, she taught me in second grade and again in fifth, she is still alive so I will not give her name out here. She never married anyone else.
These poems appear below the photos on the mens obits.
South : Rest on. embalmed and sainted dead, dear as the blood ye gave! No impious footstep here shall tread the herbage of your grave. Nor shall your glory be forgot while fame her record keeps.
or Honour points the hallowed spot where valour proudly sleeps.
O'Hanlon : This muffled drums sad roll has beat the soldiers last tatoo:
No more on lifes parade shall meet that brave and fallen few.
On Fames eternal camping ground their silent tents are spread,
And glory gaurds, with solemn round, the bivouac of the dead. Both poems by O HARA
In Loving Memory of Seán Sabat agus Feargal O h-Annluaín
"In proud memory of two brave Irishmen who gave their lives for Ireland at Brookeborough, County Fermanagh on new Years Day 1957. Their Nobel sacrifice and herioc death in battle against the British Occupation Forces, will continue to shine as a star to guide the youth of Ireland along the true path to Freedom. May they rest in peace."
There is another poem "Sean agus Feargal" by Libhin Nic Gabhann on the back that is too long to post here. and some quotes from Padraic Mac Pairais and Robert Emmet.
I went along to the march to take photos and listen to a great Fife and Drum band from Youghal county Cork. There was a large crowd of young and old, so south is still a popular hero around Limerick it seems. I never met him, he died before I was born. If anyone would like to know the larger poem you can email me at [e-mail]
I hope this helps. Slainte!
Von

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 09:08 PM

Definitely a Mudcat moment! Thanks, Vonny.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 07:41 AM

Thanks Vonny for putting a lot of nonsense to rest about Sean South. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:16 AM

There is a great account of sean south's life and death in 'Milestones in Murder' by Hugh Jordan. The author is from Glasgow, but lives in Ireland. He claims the Brookeborough raid in which South and O'Hanlon were killed was betrayed by an informer called George Poyntz. Poyntz survived as a police mole inside the IRA for 40 years until he was pulled out in the 1990's.

Gorbals Boy

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Seamus Brogan
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:10 PM

Last year at the All Ireland Fleadh Cheoil in Clonmel, I sung a song about Feargal O Hanlon and a lady in the audience came up to me and said that she had worked with O Hanlon in Monaghan Town Hall.She told me she had known with him for many years and worked with him for 2 years. She had never heard the song before and asked me for the words.She had first hand information on the raid on Brookborough Barracks. To reply to boglion, there was definately a man from Wexford on thet lorry load because he was a neighbour and good friend of mine.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:43 PM

I published the names of all the men in my book last year. It's not secret as they were published in "Saoirse" the organ of RSF February 2001. http://rsf.ie According to this the Wexford man is now dead.

I've orderd Hugh Jordan's book and look forward to reading it, but I can't see that if the men had been betrayed by an informer, why there was only one policeman in the station, and how the men all managed to escape over the border, about 12 miles away, in a clapped out lorry. Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:48 PM

Seamus, I forgot to say: do you know the song "Feargal O'Hanlon"? It starts "O hark to the tale of young Feargal O'Hanlon, who died in Brookeborough to make Ireland free..."

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:41 AM

I agree with Susanne, if Robin's friends just heard him whistling the tune, they's have probably assumed it was "Roddy MaCauley" - so was there any chance that he was the one that Robin's colleagues thought was "a poofter". On the other hand, if South was a rather detached, accademic type, that might have been the sort of opinion that a building site "Mick" would have had of him.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Seamus Brogan
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:30 PM

The Wexford man is now dead God rest his soul, but he has 3 sons living in the same area around Enniscorthy. Yes to Big Tim, I have been singing this song for some years now. I first heard my mother sing it nearly forty years ago. I later learned the song from the late Frank Bryson (ar dheis De go raibh a anam usail) well known ballad singer from South Armagh and Dublin.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:56 PM

FEARGAL O'HANLON

Oh! Hark to the tale of young Feargal O'Hanlon,
Who died in Brookeborough to make Ireland free,
For his heart he had pledged to the cause of his country,
And he took to the hills like a bold rapparee.

And he feared not to walk to the walls of the Barracks,
A volley of death poured from window and door,
Alas for young Feargal, his life's blood for freedom,
On Brookeborough's pavements profusely did pour.

When the smoke and the din of the battle were over,
And Feargal was borne by his comrades away,
He asked them to fly from that place and take cover,
But he died in the hands of the foe on that day.

God strike from your hands, all you hirelings and traitors,
The weapons that murdered our brave volunteer,
God grant to us freedom, the dream of O'Hanlon,
And take from our valleys, all sorrow and fear.

Died 1 January 1957.
"rapparee" = outlaw, rebel.
Tune: "Teddy O'Neill"?
Any amendments or more verses?

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Sean MacDiarmada
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 08:34 PM

Thanks for giving us that Big Tim. I never heard this song about Fergal O'Hanlon before.
But when I worked in London in the 80's a friend of mine from Glasgow used to sing an "extra" verse at the beginning of Sean South. Not the usual spoken intro but another verse. I can't remember it as all that period is lost in a haze but if anyone has it I'd like to see it again.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 06:18 AM

It wasn't this one, was it?

May God be with those noble hearts,
May heaven be their home,
They never feared the RUC,                                          Or B-Specials on patrol,
In Brookeborough town, they were shot down,
In a cabin they lay cold,
O'Hanlon from old Monaghan town,
Sean South of Garryowen.

By Pat McManus, died in Cavan in 1958.

Source; "Saoirse"

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Seamus Brogan
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:41 PM

Big Tim: That's the song as I know it word for word. It's sung to the air of Teddy O Neill. Do you know who wrote it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:50 PM

No Seamus: no idea. These things are, understandably, kept quiet to outsiders, unfortunately for historians. I found it on an anon "rebel" compilation. Sounds like Declan Hunt singing it. Thanks for confirming the melody, my musical ear is not very good.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Sean MacDiarmada
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:17 PM

Thanks Big Tim but that's not the extra verse I'm thinking of. I have heard that one before. I'll have to try to dredge up a few words of the one I'm thinking of.
Sean

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,elvis
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 11:35 PM

hello
My name is elvis. I am an american film student. I have heard the song Patriot Game and was very intreaged by the srory. I do not want to affend anyone but for such a good song to be written there must be a good story behind it. Please do not get upset with me. I don't know the irish history but I have to admit that one song has prompted me to learn more. Is'nt that what it's all about? If anyone can give a history leason on O'hannlon I would be forever thankful.

Elvis

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 05:06 AM

BigTim

With that opening line, I would have expected "Bard of Armagh" as the tune! Haven't heard the song.

Regards

p.s. Never did get to Hughes' that night - you still owe me a drink!

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 04:34 PM

My father served in the Irish Guards during the 39-45 unpleasantness. he was in the guards armoured division driving a tank . He died in February this year and he always had nightmares about the stuff he went through as a tank driver. His regiment went into action 2 days after D-Day and he would never discuss what he saw and did, but he always said that only way to describe it was wholesale slaughter.

I suppose he would have been described in modern parlance as homophobic. I think it very unlikely he would have been happy in a gang of homosexuals - even as Isherwood would have said - homosexual for commercial reasons: and he had a great affection for his old regiment - even to my mother's horror (she was a Quaker) thinking it would be an okay place for me to serve when I was about four. Still I'm glad Blunt got lucky one night at least.

he did say that none of Irish comrades dared go home in uniform when they had a furlough - not wearing an English uniform. And from the Enniskillen bombing at the memorial, I suppose that attitude must still prevail in places. I think those men who fought against Hitler did their nation a favour. Hitler wouldn't have been any nicer to the Celtic nations than he was to the Slavic ones.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,James
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:28 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,sean og
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 12:31 PM

just a good tune

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 01:20 PM

The only biography of Sean South is "Maraíodh Sean Sabhat Aréir" (Sean South Died Last Night?) by Mainchín Seoighe (Mannix Joyce), born in 1920, still alive but frail. Published in 1964. It's never been translated. Still available occasionally second-hand. It includes many interesting photos including one of the barn where Sean South died.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,jonsul
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 05:10 AM

Big Tim you say you published the names in your book..How do I get the book?

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,jonsul
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 07:26 AM

By the way I got Seoige's book in the local library and can do a chapter by chapter synopsis (in English) for anyone who's interested.

Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 08:14 PM

Jonsul, if you became a member of Mudcat (at no cost) you could send Big Tim a personal message. I'm not sure the book is available through booksellers, but it's well worth buying.