BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 03:37 PM

Thanks Harvey.

Part of me hopes the situation gets a whole lot worse because that's what it will take before the average person realises where our government is taking us. Another part of me, a smarter part, is afraid of what form that "worse" might take.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:06 PM

Thanks for posting that, sed. The full text of Robert Byrd's speech can be found HERE.

GUEST, I also saw 60 Minutes last night. I usually enjoy Andy Rooney's curmudgeonly commentaries (in fact, it's a fantasy of mine that I'd like to have his job when he retires), but last night I found him bitterly disappointing and downright mean-spirited. So we liberated France at the end of World War II. Okay, fine! Might as well. We were on our way to Berlin anyway. So--how long and how often are the French supposed to bow and scrape and lick our knees in abject gratitude? And does this mean they're obligated to kiss George W. Bush's (or any other American's or Brit's) bum every time he wants to demand something of him?

Come on, Andy! That's just snotty, and you know it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:15 PM

Uh, Guest, Any Rooney makes no pretense of being objective. He is a commentator, not a reporter. Therefore, he has the freedom to express himself any way he wishes. You have a choice too. You don't have to listen to him.

I was heartened to hear on Television this morning that the sale of French goods (wines, cheeses, water, and other products of France) were being boycotted by U. S. citizens. Not because of an organized campaign, but by Americans who are disgusted with the French government. The French government is not our friend, and I'm beginning to wonder about the German government.

Oh, and I was as delighted to hear Andy Rooney's comments as you were disgusted, Guest.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:19 PM

If a friend to whom you owe a debt is trying to walk over a cliff with a baby in his arms, it is not generally consiudered that your gratitude to him is best expresseed by just standing back and doing nothing to try to stop him.

So why all this the hate against France?

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar at home
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:20 PM

Don't forget that the last Gulf War was very good for CNN, and incoming Scuds, outgoing Patriots and Air-to-surface missile control system cameras give you much sexier footage than a bunch of plain people of all ages, nationalities and creeds demonstrating so peacefully that the police can't even justify cracking a few skulls.

By the way, if it hadn't been for US-based Mudcat, I wouldn't have known about the demo taking place here in Brussels, "capital of Europe".

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:26 PM

So DougR, if your friends disagree with you on a particular subject, do you shout them down, hurl really hurtful public insults at them, tell them what ungrateful parasites they are, and shut them out of your life? Just for disagreeing with you or someone you agree with?

That is the equivalent of what you are talking about with France and Germany. Because they disagree with the Bush administration on how to disarm Iraq, is no justification for the villification they are receiving from this administration, or from this nation's mainstream media. It is shocking, appalling, and deeply disturbing to hear this sort of rhetoric being levelled against our staunchest allies.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:37 PM

Madeline Albright once compared Saddam to "Hitler." Given Saddam's record it seems unusual that France would allow him to continue playing his games with the UN.

Maybe they are worried about their oil interests.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:40 PM

Why wouldn't they be worried about their oil interests in Iraq Richie? We are certainly worried about ours, so your point is...?

Why is this disagreement over whether it is best to disarm Iraq militarily now or later, causing such vicious reactions among right wing Americans?

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:57 PM

I think the best way to understand that kind of reaction is to think in terms of "temper tantrums". You get them when the little person involved is so used to having their own way in everything they can't deal with frustration. You've got to be patient, and never lose your temper, but not give way. And it's a good idea to see if you can distract them somehow - tickle their toes to make them laugh, for example.

Of course, when it isn't a little person, but someone who is very much stronger than everybody else in sight, it is trickier, but I think the same approach is appropriate...

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:02 PM

The point is that French has a 2 billion dollar interest in oil that would be jeopardized if Saddam was removed from power. Iraq is their main source for oil. I think the French are mainly interest in preserving their oil connection.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:09 PM

It wouldn't be jeoparadized, but it could well be destabilized, and that is a very legitimate concern for all of Europe. They get a lot of oil from Iraq.   So are you suggesting that all of Europe should just ignore their own interests in the region, to defer to Bush? That is insane.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:12 PM

Of course thay're worried because Saddam will torch the oil and kill as many people as he can.

But that's OK- we should just leave people like him alone.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:14 PM

OK Richie, it is now obvious that you aren't interested in a serious discussion here. I'm done with your trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:39 PM

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle....tuned in twice today and BOTH times they were discussing the effect of the marches. It was YESTERDAY'S story (and not covered at all) so do you think people actually contacted them asking the same question that we've been asking?

Wow.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:50 PM

Guest,

The problem here is that I am not a troll and represent what could be a majority or at least an equal position in the US.

Since you think a majority postion is a trolling, I feel sorry for you.

I'n not saying I'm right, but I do have the right to my opinion.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:23 PM

It isn't your point of view that is the problem for me Richie. It is your flippant come backs, and your refusal to engage in a discussion in a meaningful way.

No one is trying to prevent you from expressing your opinion. But you have made some wild, trolling/baiting comments that really can't be taken seriously, like this:

"Since you think a majority postion is a trolling, I feel sorry for you."

That isn't engaging in a conversation. That is baiting your opposition, and I ain't fallin' for it.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: harvey andrews
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:24 PM

Doug R you know if you beat up ALL your friends, in the end you end up friendless. France disagrees, Germany disagrees, millions of individuals disagree, so, do you believe in democracy or do you believe that only America can be right? This is a debate, a discussion about incredibly important issues. This is about thought and not reaction. This is about lives. It's not a black and white movie. There's no John Wayne. You boycott French goods if you think that's the answer but what if the rest of the world gradually boycotts you? This has to be discussed on a higher level than "it's my ball!"

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:26 PM

Guest,

You have not made any point to discuss. I'd love to discuss a point with you but have to say something, you didn't.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:29 PM

Don't say "only America can be right" PLEASE Harvey!

This isn't about America being right at all, because there are plenty of dissenting voices within the American establishment who are in disagreement with the Bush administration. Hell, there is even dissent within the Bush administration about the right way to go forward.

The complaints of DougR and those who agree with him, is about only the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Ashcroft agenda of the radical right being right.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:30 PM

Well, some folks think that the marches were covered adequately and some think that they were not. Personally, I saw schedules, live coverage and post-facto information everywhere I looked, starting about the first of last week and continuing through today, such as here. Perhaps those of you who didn't have the same should complain to your LOCAL media outlets, or to the peanut butter companies and SUV dealers who pay for the news. Do you really think that Dubya and his buddies care what you (or anyone) sees and thinks?

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: harvey andrews
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:33 PM

I stand corrected. It's not America. It's the govt and certain citizens.It's difficult when your being ganged up on to know who you have to hit and who you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:37 PM

Thanks Harvey. I know. These morons who claim we aren't hearing enough pro-war voices are the Limbaugh/O'Reilly brigades, charging in now that there is a crack in the sky letting a single ray of sunshine through to the world. They keep wanting to drag us back into the dark dungeons of their fears of terrorists and Iraqi missiles under the beds.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:44 PM

Back of the French government are the French people, and all the inductions are that they are against this war, so long as there is any way of making sure that Saddam doesn't have these weapons of mass destruction. And the same goes for the German government.

And the same goes for the people in the United Kingdom and Spain and Italy and Poland and the Czech Republic, and virtually all the countries that have governments that are currently lined up with Bush.

And it's not about oil concessions because most of these countries don't have any. It's about countries where the people have had some experience of having wars fought in their territories, and air-raids in their cities. And that carries on a couple of generations.

In some ways we find it easier in this situation to identify with ordinary people in Iraq than we do with ordinary people in America, who have never had to live with that. When I read a story in the paper where a man in Iraq said that when the raids came he'd probably stay in his house rather than go into the shelter, it might have been my mother talking.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:44 PM

Like I've said, if you don't have internet you're not going to get much from CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC or PBS. I watched CNN all day on Saturday and there just wasn't too much coverage and when there was the information was evasive. Instead of saying that a half a million (more like 750,000) were protesting in New York City they used the term "thousands". Now unless I knew better, I would think maybe a few thousand. I wouldn't think "hundred" of thousands.

That is pathetic. If 2,000 pro Bush folks had deomstrated in New York City on Saturday, I'm sure it would have recieved a lot more coverage, just as the 20 or so proBushies received in Washington, D.C. last month. But same deal. A few thousand.... blah, blah, blah... It was a half a million, Herbie, against 20! And the 20 got the same amount of press coverage...

Go figure.

All we are asking for is for the media to, ahhh, tell the friggin' truth.

Oh, that's not in the Bush Plan????

I see...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: harvey andrews
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:46 PM

Amen,McGrath

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:01 PM

GUEST: I'll address your question this one time. If you will identify yourself, I'll continue the conversation or debate with you. Otherwise forget it.

The Bush administration is not screaming, yelling or expressing itself in any of the ways you describe in your first paragraph. They are using diplomacy to try to convince France and Germany to hold Iraq to what it is supposed to do! Abide by Resolution 1441! Simple. Instead, those two countries joined by Belgium are merely giving Saddam encouragement to continue the cat and mouse game with the inspectors.

I still think Andy Rooney was on target, and I don't think it is unseemly to remind countries when we have come to their aid that they owe us. Were we to have loaned them money, we would expect to be repaid. It's just that the aid given France in WW2 was in the form of blood. The blood of our service people.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:26 PM

Is it true gratitude to reward the persos you helped you be encouraging them to make a terrible mistake?

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: NicoleC
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:35 PM

Yeah yeah, we saved France's butt during WWII. And most of Europe. But the US wouldn't exist without the help of the French, so maybe we ought to get off our high horse about WWII, do ya think?

Being allies is not about trading soldiers' lives -- and even if it were, we'd kinda be even with the French after that little ruckus in 1776. The French and the Germans are our friends and allies. Just because they are telling us something we don't want to hear doesn't mean they aren't doing it to try to be helpful.

Yet, every time the UN balks at doing exactly what the US wants, we hear this whining about the UN becoming "irrelevant." The UN was never there to be the US's lackey, it's there to promote the better interests of the *world.*

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:35 PM

I just saw the worst case of xenophobic ranting yet--on CNN's Crossfire, where the right wing asshole, who's name isn't important enough to remember, attacking a French journalist with such meanness it took my breath away. Then he (the CNN right wing asshole) started to pile French products on the desk, telling the world that Americans were now going to boycott French goods and destroy their economy.

This hysteria and fear mongering must stop.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: boglion
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:41 PM

Long term it is no favour to follow a friend who is making a disastrous mistke.

Don't get us wrong in Europe. We like you Yanks. We like your tv programs, your films, and your fast food has been popular with our kids. I have good friends and even relatives your side of the pond.

What we don't like is when a president appears from nowhere with no track record of understanding the world and attempts to change the way that nations interact with each other.

War is always a disaster. It always causes more problems than it solves. Sometimes, very rarely, it is unavoidable. This is not one of those times. This war will make the world more unstable; Osama will be rubbing his hands as the recruits roll in.

I would like to see a SECRET vote on the Security Council to see just how many of the other 13 vote with the US and the UK if bullying and bribery are not in the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:49 PM

No, that wouldn't work.

After a vote on the Security Council which came up with only four countries voting the way Bush wants, and all the rest against, it'd be pretty clear that everyone apart the UK, Spain and Bulgaria had stepped out of line, and they could expect to get punished for it.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:50 PM

So. Bush and 'his' men have decided to draw lines in the sand... So. The US gov, with no clear mandate in it's own country, has decided all on it's own, to economically 'punish' governments that do listen and repond to their electorate. Is this a good lesson to teach our childeren? Hmmmmmmmmm?

The American public has loosed a Frankenstein on the world... 'brought to you by...' political indifference and a few well publicized sexual encounters...

Man... have we ever made a big mistake...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: NicoleC
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:59 PM

No, there shouldn't be secret votes on the Sacurity Council. How else would the citizenry be informed of their government's actions? We can't hold our government accountable if we don't know what they did or did not do.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 09:03 PM

There also shouldn't be right wing media whores calling for American boycotts of French and German goods to destroy the economies of France and Germany for disagreeing with George Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST,The Hated Guest
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 11:57 PM

The American public didn't elect Bush. Rehnquist, O'Connor, Thomas, Stevens and that mafia judge did.

Bush has two simple tasks to perform while in the White House.

1) Domestic agenda...destroy America. Do this by wrecking the economy and ramming through Hitlerian legislation.

2) Make America an international pariah. Achieve this by abrogating all treaties in the early part of his term, then, start a phony war which defies logic and insults old allies. Unite the fragmented European Union in the only way it CAN be united (by an outside threat in the form of a rogue U.S.), and set America up as the Iraq of the future.

Bush's actions will result in domestic calamity (which will end up with the U.N. having to 'assist' America), and international calamity (which will end up with the U.N. making peace between the three new spheres of influence...American, European and Asian). Bush is merely an actor in the script written by the organized crime syndicate known as the United Nations.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 11:50 AM

Yo GUEST:

Your comments about the French reminded me of an incident that occured about 3 years ago at WIIY-FM in Baltimore. One of the morning DJ's, whose name I can't remember, went on an anti-French rant and was fired that afternoon. Hmmmmm?

Now the media can't seem to find *enough* right wingers to get up before the microphones and rail against the French! Hmmmmm?

I'm seeing a pattern here. Aren't these the kind of things that precluded WW I and WW II? Hmmmmmm?

(Well, Bobert. Ya' gotta start somewhere...)

And the drum-beat goes on...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 12:58 PM

New York Times, February 18, in an article that says that Bush has finally gone to an idealistic stance at the same time that the 'liberals' are taking a hard look at the consequences of actions:

Finally, Iraq. Mr. Bush and his aides, like Bobby Kennedy, dream things that never were and say why not. Mr. Bush imagines the transformative effect that a democratic, stable and prospering Iraq would have on the entire Arab world.

Maybe. But it would be helpful if he also had nightmares of things that never were, to understand how policies can go wrong. It seems equally possible that invading Iraq will trigger precisely the scenario we fear — Saddam handing out anthrax or even smallpox to terrorists — and that our invasion will lead thousands of young Arabs to join Al Qaeda. Instead of becoming safer, we could be in a more perilous state than ever.

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 06:21 PM

"The corporate grip on opinion in the United States is one of the wonders of the Western World. No First World country has ever managed to eliminate so entirely from its media all objectivity- much less dissent." - Gore Vidal

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 03:06 AM

NicoleC, you've hurt my feelings. The Brisbane figures were 100,000 (organisers) and 50,000 (police). Biggest political demonstration in Brisbane's history.

... and I hope both figures included rich-joy and myself, because we were there!

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 12:21 PM

Sorry, just reporting what was getting reported in the media. Glad to here Sydney and Melbourne didn't get all the glory in Oz!

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 12:29 PM

Actually the Toronto and Montreal figures were so far off, I wonder where they were gettin their info. Thanks for printin' it Nicole.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: politics: Very disappointed in CNN today
From: Hrothgar
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:14 AM

That last guest was me, NicoleC - I hadn't realised my cookie had crumbled.