Last Night of the Proms

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 12:31 PM

I have just read the thread on Ethno England. How appropriate would it be to sing Rule Brittania at the end of that?

And, just in case am missunderstood:

Not much and I bet it wouldn't enter anybodies head.

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 12:36 PM

I've alway understood that Blake was referring to churches when he wrote "dark satanic mills". But the meanings of a song don't finish with the ideas in the poet's mind when he wrote it.

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: PeteBoom
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 12:36 PM

Right - and how many are gratefull for General Wade... whose efforts were directed toward "rebellious Scots to crush"...

Fercryinoutloud.

Either clean EVERYTHING or leave it as a reminder of the period when it was created. Reminds me of a church I visited in Wisconsin some 25 years ago where the closing hymn "God of Our Fathers" was reworked to "God of Our Parents"...

Pete

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 12:56 PM

Stever Parkes: we agree..."wider still and wider" comes from LofHandG, which I admitted was excessive, word wise. I only said Rule Britannia didnt have particularly imperialistic words.

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:16 PM

Les, you were indeed right - we did divide on this; but then it was always going to happen, as your question only allowed two sides: Like it or hate it, just a song or symbolic of whatever, black or white.
The issue I find is not the division in the responses, but the asking of such a polarising question in the first place. After all, whose ethnic past is untainted?
Imperialism and exploitation, eh? Well, my ancestors were creating empires and "democracy" on the back of slaves when the favourite colour in the british Isles was woad-blue. My very hero, Alexander the Great, was guilty of that too. But he also did a lot of good; and while I may with the benefit of advanced civilisation and knowledge decry much of what he did, I will not judge him out of context and will admire him for the good deeds.
The reason I find the asking of the question disturbing in the first place is that it reminds me of the German society's post-war self-deprecation: so much over the top, that we are now reaping its fruits in neo-Nazism. Because we all need pride in our background. And we all deserve it. To strip a person of that is inviting a reaction and serves no purpose. And to do so on the basis of historic facts viewed with hindsight achieves precious little. Just like hating one's parents for their bad points doesn't make one better. We should learn from the past to improve the present and prepare the future - not wallow in it.
The question of whether singing "Rule Britannia" today is a good thing and whether it implies tacit approval of past practices only serves to muddy waters and divert from questions that are more relevant now: Like the various forms exploitation takes in our times, more insidious but just as despicable.
As an aside: I remember singing "RB" while watching Last Night of the Proms on TV in 1996, having at the time been away from the UK for a few years, brandishing sparklers out of an Amsterdam 9th floor window like a demented fool. I confess to a couple of tears at the time. Heck, I'm not even a Brit! But I lived here for many years, have several good mates, and the tears were perhaps because I was missing them, and all the other good people of this land. The song was just a symbol to me. And in 2000, back in the UK, I watched it again, and that time I took more notice of the ponces in the front row and got discusted and switched off. Same event, same song, same person, different reaction.

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:50 PM

El Greko, thanks for you thoughtful reply. I didn't ask a polarising question. The first post, which is their to be checked, seems reasonable and it raises an interesting point, though not quite as innocently as it reads (to me).

When I first went to Folk Clubs some people told anti- Irish, anti- jewish, anti black........jokes, as did lots of other people in lots of other situations. Now they don't and that's better.

I am not asking for a whole scale re-interpretation of the history of humanity or a change in human nature.

I don't like the sentiments expressed in those songs and I don't understand why anybody would want to sing them at the end of a series of concerts of world class music.

It is a confusing line between wanting to enjoy old English songs and music and seeming to appear just a tiny bit jingoistic. I guess we all get it just a bit wrong now and again.

I find the Brittania Coconut Dancers unique, thrilling and more than a bit magical and I cannot say that about much morris. A Jewish friend of ours is uneasy about white men painting their faces black and as a result cannot connect with the sense of drama that I involunterily do.

I think it says a great deal about the sensitivity and sense of justice that abounds in the 'folk community' that we enjoy English and other traditions without becoming jingoistic.

And as for those deadful songs in the fantasia, how many more moving sea songs can you name that those?

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:04 PM

I wonder just how many folk songs from other cultures just might be a wee bit "jingoistic"?

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:11 PM

Hear, hear, Les. In today's PC world many fear to tread the line between nostalgia and not wanting to be jingoistic. I say "don't worry", because jingoism is not in the action, but in the intention. And as long as the intention is honourable, the action should not give cause for grave offence; perhaps just a mild reminder/reprimand. A little common sense, open-mindedness and willingness to forgive minor and unintentional trespasses goes a long way; let's use them to resist PC-madness.
See you at the Extravaganza, I hope (?)

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:36 PM

The Nutters and other similar dancers black their faces with soot as an informal, token disguise. There hasn't ever, so far as I know, been any suggestion that they are "blacking up" in the way the Minstrel Shows did it; except from outsiders who are bringing their own cultural baggage and preconceptions to a situation where they don't belong (BBC TV producers in the last example I heard about). Quite a lot of ceremonial dance in parts of Africa involves whitening the face with ashes, and there is no racist implication there, either; though to the disguise element is sometimes added a religious aspect also (white being associated with the spirit world, if I remember correctly).

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 04:24 PM

Rochester sweeps and the various dance sides associated with that go in for blacking their faces too, but that's chimney-sweep blacking, not minstrels. But it has been misunderstood too at times.

Some sides which go for painting their face avoid any misunderstanding by painting them bright green or red and so forth - which is good and colourful too. Like parrots.

And Pierrots paint their faces white.

We are drifting!

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 05:12 PM

I think I accept the points Malcolm and McGrath are making, let me repeat myself:

I find the Brittania Coconut Dancers unique, thrilling and more than a bit magical and I cannot say that about much morris. But other people don't, they find them disturbing for other reasons.

I don't like the sentiments expressed in those songs and I don't understand why anybody would want to sing them at the end of a series of concerts of world class music.

Harry is correct, some other folk cultures have some very unpleasant features well beyond a bit of jingoism.

Ok I surrender, I have made my point as best I can and I have to say, as I did above:

I think it says a great deal about the sensitivity and sense of justice that abounds in the 'folk community' that we enjoy English and other traditions without becoming jingoistic.

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 05:41 PM

Britannia Coco-nut Dancers official website

Anobody who could get offended at them would be looking for being offended for some ulterior motive.

Subject: RE: Last Night of the Proms
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 04:14 AM

Sorry Greg -- you're quite right! Still, people can't expect me to digest their every word; if, every time I make a knee-jerk reaction, it has to be to what was said and not what I thought I heard I'm not going to get much chance to shoot my mouth off, am I? That's enough irony for now -- I don't want people taking this nonsense seriously!

Steve