Were we ever that young?

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 11:09 AM

Mudlark:

I think you really got it said, girl!!

Love ya,

A

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 11:19 AM

"I never applaud anything that I don't like. To do so is hypocracy.

I've often enough clapped when someone who hasn't maybe ever sing in public before has had real trouble singing a song in a singng circle, and somehow struggled through to the end, getting stronger as they went. I wasn't clapping the singing, I was recognising the courage involved.   

Here's a song I once wrote about this kind of thing:

Well, I went down to the pub one night
and I was feeling right,
and I was feeling happy -
I'm going to sing my song tonight.
I'm going to sing my song,
I'm going to sing my song,
And I was feeling happy -
I'm going to sing my song,.

But when I got up in the pub tonight
I never stood there in the light.
No, I went up to the bar instead,
I never sang my song tonight.
I never sang my song,
I never sang my song,
No, I went up to the bar instead,
I never sang my song tonight.

But when I came out of the pub tonight
I felt a little sad inside.
And I was feeling sad because
I never sang my song tonight.
I never sang my song,
I never sang my song,
And I was feeling sad because
I never sang my song tonight.

But when I went back to the pub again
I said, "I'll do it right.
Tonight's the night I'm going to sing my song,
I'm going to sing my song tonight".
I'm going to sing my song,
yes, I'm going to sing my song,
Tonight's the night I'm going to sing my song,
I'll sing my song tonight.

And I stood up in the pub tonight,
and I stood there in the light.
And I started shaky, but I ended strong -
and I sang my song tonight.
I sang my song,
yes, I sang my song,
And I started shaky, but I ended strong -
I sang my song tonight.

And when I came out of the pub tonight,
the moon was shining bright,
and I was feeling happy.
I sang my song tonight.
I sang my song,
yes, I sang my song,
I was feeling happy,
I sang my song tonight.

And when I go back to the pub again
I might sing a song or two -
but I know I'll join the chorus,
and the singer might be you.
And we'll sing our songs,
yes, we'll sing our songs.
And I will join the chorus,
and the singer might be you.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 11:28 AM

Brucie

There is always a time to be nice. There is also times I have found that you can't. Sometimes being bluntly honest with feelings doesn't always come across as "nice."

I never subscribed to the philosophy that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it. Better to put your cards on the table. I'm open and honest with everybody.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 11:51 AM

I agree. Our methods differ. I still perceive you to be a good guy with rough edges. You would see me as being too soft, I suspect. But, it's about method. I came outta slums and a tough district. I don't know that Chicago differs substantially from Montreal or New York. Don't care how you slice it, I see you as a 'tough' guy with a soft heart. Don't f#ck with me on this diagnosis boychik. In real life, we'd probably get along real well. Later.

Brucie

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 12:16 PM

Unless you have specifically asked to comment, the best thing to do when you don't like something often is to hold your tongue, and refrain from clapping.

I suspect some of the differences expressed here are related to the way that we are thinking about different situations. A concert performance is different from an open mike, which is different from a song circlke, which is different from a session, which is different from a floor spot in a folk cub.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 12:35 PM

Ok, Martin. This self-serving dramatization about categorically excoriating those who "suck" should be outgrown.

Let's take the case of a newbie who finally finds enough courage to stand up and sing a song he wrote himself, say, about, oh, I dunno -- a love experience, or a religous experience. And he built four chords into this song, no, let's say he was really ingenious and used a relative minor AND its seventh so there are FIVE chords in the song.

But he is nervous as hell, he has never stood before an audience before. His songs are emotionally shallow, and his scansion leaves something to be desired, requiring that he triple-spread one syllable in order to balance a line in a couple of places. His palms are sweating and his fingers slip and they aren't that strong int he first place, so his barred F sounds shitty and in his panic he forgets the intermediate mionor chord in a couple of places.

So let's look at the pluses and minuses of this individuals situation:

PLUS items:

1. He spent his time learning to play
2. He wrote a song
3. He got up in front of an audience without wetting himself
4. He got all the way through the song
5. The song has a couple of original lines or images in it, say.
6. He actually used more than three chords in one song, not badly

MINUS Items:

1. Scansion needs improivement
2. Emotional depth could stand a review
3. Practice the barred F
4. Overcome stage fright.
5. Practice the song so it comes out right even in your sleep.

OK, enough. Your mindset appears to be such that instead of articulating thos epluses and minuses, you think the right thing to do -- even though it is perhaps the most crushing thing to do -- is simply say "You suck, son".

The reason is t5hat you are too self-centered and too lazy to try and separate the pluses out from the minuses and mention them? Or provide specifics so he can address the minuses? "You suck" is a complete generalization, and therefore it is in fact a lie. But you would prefer it -- because of its much more popwerfully invalidative emoptional impact, perhaps -- to the trouble of sorting out the truth?

No-one would mind being told he needs to practice the F chord, or that scansion needs work. No-one, being told "You suck", is likely to even bother picking up their capo on the way out. Your simple and arrogant choice of words could easily be enough to take all the music out of someone's life for twenty or thirty years. Good effect, huh?

Ya know what? Maybe you're the one that sucks. Your choice of tough-minded honesty is a false veneer in the example above, becvause you can't take the trouble to make clear specific statements, so you have to batter someone with blunt falsehoods like "You suck." An opinion without facts offered in support. I can't think of an unkinder way to comment on someone's performance. Do you get off on being discouraging to others? OR are you just trying to get even with your father?

A

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 01:44 PM

Hey, Amos:

I don't know who said this originally, but I've always thought it was very wise:

   "Love without honesty is sentimentality
    Honesty without love is cruelty"

Jerry

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:02 PM

Well, I apologize for being blunt, and perhaps even cruel... but the idea of telling some struggling newbie that he sucks raises my ire. It was only one lifetime ago that I was a young punk with a second hand nylon-string guitar trying to sing "Beautiful Brown Eyes" in front of sophisticated strangers visiting my parents. They could have told me I sucked, but they were civilized people who found something constructive to say instead. I am grateful to them.

A

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:43 PM

I am going to go along with Brucie and Amos on this one. I was - maybe still am to some degree - guilty of all the faults which Jerry listed in his original posting. However, I like to think that any musician can improve. I also think that nothing is less likely to bring that about than a cruel attack on their confidence.
As an English teacher, I am very careful to make every student believe that they can speak English. That's half the battle. If they think they can, they do. Then I can move on to say, "I can help you to do this better."
I never had the privelege of meeting him, but I gather this was very much the basis of Rick Fielding's attitude to teaching. That's the sort of teacher I want to be.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:55 PM

Hey, MartinGibson,

Do you realize we have never had a knock-down drag-out argument? There must be something about you I really relate to. I was thinking: in real life we'd be good friends. Be good, buddy.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:56 PM

Amos

Comments on your post:

Regarding the plusses:

Big fucking deal.

Regarding the minus items:

You're right, pal.

OK, " You suck" is a complete generalization. "You suck squirrel farts" is not.

No Amos, you suck. You suck because you say I suck. i don't hide behind anything except this made up forum name. No where have I ever said in any post that I would be the guy who yells out "you suck." I might think it and mutter it under my breath but I have never said that I would do it. So, please bite me. And I know that I don't suck because my phone rings constantly for my participation in music.

How do you know someone wouldn't mind being told to go practice an F chord unless you were the actual teacher. From what I've heard, yours could use a little practice, also.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:58 PM

Brucie

I agree with you. I think we would also. You are quite right.


Jerry, go sniff a flower and romp in a meadow or something.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 03:06 PM

The best things about the hoots in Chicago in the early 60s--seven nights a week---each night in a different club---- was that it "gave us a gym in which to work out". That translates to "a place to be bad"---a place where we weren't going to be judged---a place to get better. Pretty much we were all singing traditional songs we had found and very few that we might've written from our limited experience.

I remember the time I first heard the term singer/songwriter. It was an Electra Records LP album called The Singer-Songwriter Project (or something like that). They sounded forced but a few were nice. I think I learned one of them.

Good things will come from these people you heard, Jerry. Just not yet. And then they'll ask, "Was I ever that young??"

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 03:14 PM

Martin:

OK -- so you weren't serious about your assertion that you should tell people "you suck".

Boy, it sure sounded that way to me, but if I read you the wrong way, I apologize -- you invest so much energy in sounding antisocial it's easy to fall into the belief that you actually are.

As for biting you, mark the spot, pal.

A

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 03:49 PM

And, Martin, my F chord always needs practice. You got that part right, at least.

A

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 03:58 PM

Art Theime

Do remember the hoots years ago in Oak Park at a place known as the Mills House?

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 04:39 PM

I am envisioning getting Martin Gibson, Clinton Hammond, and Brendy together as a trio so we can find out who is the most kickass, independent-minded, totally honest bastard of the lot. Talk about a hot show! If I was Albert Grossman reborn, I'd get right on it.

And we'd plant someone in the audience to yell, "YOU SUCK!!!" after every song... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 05:15 PM

I call upright bass.

Bass holds it all together. It is the glue.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 05:26 PM

Over the past 10 years we've modified to format of the open-mike I co-run. We started out being totally flexible, no stated limit ot lenths or number of songs. We treated everyone as they were wonderful, considerate people. We have no closing time - we could go for hours and hours if people wanted. A few years down the road, we had to change the format to limiting people to 3 songs. A few people wanted to go on and on - espically one struggling blues harpist. Between his 5 minute intros and the fact that he needed to sing every verse ever written, he filled 30 minutes and frankly bored us each time. A couple years later we had to switch to limiting performers to 15 minutes - because of one duo who did 12 minute songs. Every song about 12-step recovery or how wonderful their spiritual path with Unity church was.

I really think we've lost something because we had to do "punish" everyone in order to stop the abuse.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 06:04 PM

Yeah. It's the same thing that happens in life generally. A few bad apples make things difficult for everyone. Accordingly, we have laws, restrictions, and rules.

- LH

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 06:34 PM

I ran across a new trick where performers are limitd to two songs. A duo got up and said, "For our first song we're doing a medley... of about five songs, which they did completely.." This year, when we sang there, the instructions were specific. No medleys!

Some folks never want to get off the stage

Jerry

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: ranger1
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 07:08 PM

Okay, what I have learned from this thread:
When and if I ever get the guts to either write a song or perform anything...
I will not do it for Martin Gibson or Kendall and will seriously think and rethink ever doing it at all. Thanks guys, you sure know how to encourage a newbee.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 07:11 PM

Nothing good about using more chords than you need. In fact I think it's best to use as few as you can.

If you need lots of chords in a song, use them. I've got one where I use, I think, 54 chords (some of them are inversions, all right), and that's for a particular reason. But most of the time three are fine, and sometimes less than that.

I can't see why anyone would wish to come across on the Cat as a bigger bastard than they probably really are in real life. As always the question arises, which is the real you, the one the world sees, or the one we see...

But as I said, I think a lot of this is we're thinking in terms of different types of settings, where different ways of reacting to a singer are maybe appropriate. People who are overconfident invite a more robust type of criticism than those who are underconfident. "That was pretty bad" (ie "that sucked") might be an appropriate thing to say to someone who you knew had it in them to do a lot better, and who knew that themselves. Basically, mostly it'd only be the right thing to say as a kind of backhanded compliment.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 07:19 PM

Ranger1:

The one thing that you can do that would REALLY suck is not earn the credit for trying, which even Martin Gibson would give you and said so upthread. If you want music in your life pal, stand up and belt it out.

You will NEVER regret doing so.

A

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

Martin:

I was gonna PM you but it seems your handle is always as Guest, so I cannot, but I want to say this anyway. I looked back over your posts, and while you certainly implied you thought yelling "You suck" was a good idea, you didn't say so, and you never said you would be the one to do so. So I cooled off considerable and realize I jumped off the handle again. Not the first time I have done so. Sorry for losing my temper.

And BTW, I was not referring to your musical ability. Just a perceived lack of sicial grace.

Regardless, if you have a choice, demoralizing another person is never a really good option. So maybe I should practice what I preach more.

A

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 09:34 PM

Decades ago I was visiting London and decided to visit Cecil Sharpe House, and found there was a song session being held, so I stayed and asked the organisers if I might sing - I had been singing in public for a few years and was perfectly confident about standing up on stage alone.

Eventually I was called on, and began to sing - only to have the two organisers start to howl out a slightly different version of the song.

I was living in Southsea, Hants at the time and was used to rowdyness, a group of us sang in pubs and we did the Horseshoe at the end of Elm Grove even on Navy pay day Thursdays.

I sang the song through, and the audience were singing with me by the time I finished, refused a second song stepped down from the stage and walked out, cursing mightily.

I am sure my singing was as good as it usually was/is - I check up occasionally by recording myself.

It was just after that incident that the EFDSS began to encounter all sorts of trouble, and I did sometimes wonder - my mother's mother was part gypsey - don't know which bit exactly - and she always said she could curse people. Maybe I inherited.

I did find it demoralising and I have never had the same confidence ever since. I never had stage fright before, from that night I have had the shakes every time I even think of performing.

It seems silly after thirty odd years, but it really upset me and destroyed my confidence.

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 09:46 PM

Hey Ranger1,

It's just that there are a few that abuse the open-mike scene. Typically they're full of themselves, whether it's egotism or some buring message they feel they must share.

99% of open-mikers are wonderful in their own way.

To anyone who's never performed at an open-mike, remember that all OMs aren't the same. There are ones that are truly open and accepting with wonderful hosts who will treat the so-so performer with the same level of respect as the professional performer who's there to try out new material or "give back" to the scene he or she learned so much from.

You need to find the right OM. In small towns that may be difficult, but check them all out and if you don't find any to your liking - hell, start one yourself. Go to your favorite bar, pub, coffee-house, etc. and ask them if they would be willing to let you do it. Find someone with basic sound-equipment to help out and start putting out flyers. That way you know that at least one OM is exactly the way you like it to be.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 10:21 PM

Martin, No, I don't recall that one.====Art

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 10:27 PM

Don't get discouraged, Ranger. Most folks are encouraging. I don't imagine that Van Gogh's first paintings were masterpieces. I hear that Beethoven started out writing radio commercials.

Go for it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 04:46 AM

That's more than he heard, Jerry!

My first song in public taught me one or two valuable lessons. Always practice at the volume you intend to perform at; I found I had to transpose Draft-dodger Rag from C to G on the spot, after a false start. If you have to restart, or you forget the words, or you foul up, make a joke of it -- "it's okay, they think it's part of the act!". If you fall off the tighrope, get straight back on again. Don't do circus acts in a folk club.

I still start in the wrong key, and forget the words, and they still laugh when I say it's part of the act; but I don't do it often these days.

Steve

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 05:59 AM

"Call me a snob, but I still can't abide teenage philosophers wailing out their diary entries as if they had lived."

I can't help but think about Janis Ian, who started composing when she was in her early teens. Even though she was young, her mastery of poetry and music was formidable. I'd hate to think that there might have been someone in her life who wasn't ready to encourage her simply because they had decided that a kid her age could have nothing worth saying.

Yes, it's a cruel world, especially for performers who put their egos on the line every time they stand in front of an audience. Not all are going to make it, and most will drop by the wayside soon enough. There will be a few who will suck badly, and will never get that, unless they hear it loudly from an audience member, and then, if their skin is thick enough, it still won't stop them because their need to perform is greater than their acceptance of other people's annoyance at their efforts.

People need encouragement, all people. It's a fine line in knowing when the best encouragement would be well thought-out and delivered critisism. I have never booed someone, but I have certainly refrained from applauding. It's the only thing I feel I can do, unless they specifically ask my opinion...that, or walking out of the place altogether.

Keeping a high level of tolerance is harder with age, because we have had the time to experience and judge what we deem worthy through much trial and error of our own, and our abilities to settle for less, even for the minutes it takes to sit through someone's excrutiating rendition of a well-loved song may be just too much to bear. But I'd rather keep schtum and understand that all people crave to be good at something, and a lot never will. My sympathy for them outweighs (most of the time) my need to get in their face and deflate their dreams even more.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 08:01 AM

Hey, Ellenpoly:

If we dismiss songwriters because they haven't lived enough we never would have had Bob Dylan's endless wealth of music. Same with Buddy Holly and countless other people who are recognized as great. In most music, it seems like the most creative years are for people in their twenties and thirties. Even in traditional folk music, it's easy to forget that some of the great music and recordings we love were made by very young musicians. I don't know how old Clarence Ashley was when he recorded The Cuckoo, or Mississippi John Hurt when he did his first recordings, but they were young men. And, they must have been performing long before they were first recorded.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 08:15 AM

I completely agree with you, Jerry. Did you not understand that my first sentence was a quote that was written by another catter?

The rest was my response to him, and if you read again, you'll see that I believe there is no such thing as too young to be talented, as both you and I gave instances of...xx..e

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 08:27 AM

If you've seen the threads on autism/Asperger's, you'll know that autism is characterised by an inability to understand what's in other people's minds. The rest of us have this pretty remarkable ability for empathy; to understand and share the feelings and emotions of another, even though we haven't ourselves experienced what they've been through. This is what makes it possible for someone to write a song or tell a story about feelings we can echo in our own minds, whether the singer/storyteller or we have been in the situation in the song/story. (Sorry -- long sentences! I think they make sense?) We may not have sat on the banks of Moon River and wished we could escape to the other side and start living, and nor might Andy Williams, Audrey Hepburn, Henry Mancini or Johnny Mercer; but we all know what it would feel like: that's why it's so popular.

These adolescent angstniks may not have first-hand experience of the nasty things life can throw at us, but they are certainly aware of them, and they can certainly write about them. Anyway, it's one of the charcteristics of teenager-ness that you know everything: they'll grow up and grow out of it.

Steve

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: dwditty
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 08:51 AM

I am familiar with the venue Jerry speaks of in his opening remarks. It is not unlike lots of other coffeehouses, except for the fact that they ask that people do not talk during the performances (there is a room full of old comfy couches upstairs where people who want to visit can sit). While it is true there are lots of young people spewing there (I heard a young man there who could not have been more that 14-15 singing in no uncertain terms about unrequited love), the players run the gamut from week to week with some even travelling from Boston or New York to play their 2 songs. A few weeks ago and 11 year old girl played guitar and sang two songs she had written, and she brought the house down. I have found that regardless of the level of performance, the reaction is one of nuturing and/or appreciation. I have always thought the responsibility of connecting with the music lies as much with the listener as with the performer. While I may not care much for some of the music that is played, be it of the belly-achin' variety, or rap, or hip-hop, etc., if I look around the room there is almost always somebody who is diggin' it. One of the beauties of this particular venue is the 2 song limit. The suffering is short.

dw

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 09:34 AM

Look folks, I'm talking about those three chord wonders who sing about their love life and other trivial crap. I've know a lot of very young musicians, Gordon Bok, 21 Dave Mallett, 28, these people had something to say that was worth saying even though they were young at the time. I do encourage potential, but never encourage what strikes me as self indulgent tripe.I've been in the music loop for more years than many of you have been alive, and I've seen too many cases where kids are pushed to perform on stage way before they are ready, and that's when they stop growing. Arrested development.
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself. And, my opinion is as good as yours.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 10:07 AM

Some years we alumni met with the fraternity, and one of us, above 50, started his speech with: "Now we sit here again and ask ourselves: Oh my God, have we ever been like these, and they sit here and ask themselves: Oh my God, shall we ever be like these?"
Naturally, he was right, and Jerry's question remembers me of this scene. We were young and daring once and had let nobody stop us at first, but when the shit hit the fan there always were some gentle older people who tried to straighten out the mess; they must have remembered that they were young sometimes, too. Thanks, old fellows, gone long ago.
In my youth I wrote a lot of poems and thought them well written. When 40 years of age, I read them again, put them ALL into an empty baby food can, lighted them and labeled the can "My Early Poems". My heirs will be astonished when they open it.
But I never want to miss those times. I tried, and tried hard; wouldn't I have started I'd never be what I am now.
So when I see and hear these young people annoying me I always ask myself: "Oh my God, have I ever been like these?" Unfortunately yes. But there is big consolation: They shall be like us in the end. Fortunately[?]

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 10:58 AM

Hi, Ellenpoly: Sorry I wasn't clear in my posting. I recognized the opening statement as Kendall's, not yours. You and I are completely in agreement, and I appreciated your post.

Funny thing about life experience. It doesn't begin at thirty. It wasn't that long ago that I tried to help my sons go through the rapids of their teenage and early twenties years, and if that isn't a life experience, I don't know what is. The fact that people are confused at that age and are trying to make sense out of new emotions doesn't in any way minimize the validity of their experiences. Love IS confusing. Sometimes even for geezers. Having been a teenager in the 50's, the future and the problems it held were far less threatening than they are now. At least the exterior of life was a lot more comprehendable. Did I want a vanilla coke, or a cherry coke, and who was better, Perry Como or Pat Boone? You saw life as getting out of high school or college, getting a job, finding the right girl for you, marrying and having kids, driving a big new car, owning a home and when you got old, you could rely on social security and a pension to make retirement something to look forward to. Those days are gone for kids today. I know that if I was a teenager in times like these, I would have been completely overwhelmed. And for teenagers, and kids in their twenties, music has always been an important part of trying to make sense out of their lives. I don't have the same concerns as teenagers, and some of the confusion is thankfully, dimly remembered.

What I want to know is why teenagers don't write songs that really are about life experiences. Why aren't they singing songs about important issues like what will happen when medicare runs out and the cost of prescription drugs. I don't hear any songs about how my back aches when I get up in the morning. Or even about how to make my lawn look good. Life is a cycle, and most of us are in the spin dry setting, now.

Jerry.. rapidly approaching geezerdom

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Damon
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 11:02 AM

Ranger1, martin gibson is so far up his own arse he ain't seen the light of day for a long time...if you don't believe me have a look at some of his postings. He's a very unpleasant character who hangs around insulting people, and doesn't even have the balls to use his own name, so just ignore him and,like a bad smell, he may go away.

PLEASE don't let the likes of him put you off singing or playing!

"Keeping a high level of tolerance is harder with age"....if this is true,Ellenpoly, I estimate MG to be 753 next birthday.

damon

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 11:11 AM

who was better, Perry Como or Pat Boone?

JERRReeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

ELVIS, man!!!! ELVIS has it over Pat Boone and Perry Como both!!


A

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 12:54 PM

Oh Boo Hoo Damon! Wahhhhhhhhhhh! Your about as clever as this morning's loaf. I forgot what you will never even know about music, Damon, or Demon, or Mailer Daemon or what ever you think you are.


Anyway, how about this:

You suck unless you prove to me otherwise. If you don't suck, I will stand up and cheer for you louder than anyone in the room. But if you really do suck (and I don't care how old you are, what kind of guitar you have, or even what your music is about), I have the right to think so and maybe even tell others I think so, and maybe you, too.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: dwditty
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 01:12 PM

Brownie McGhee wrote Sportin' Life when he was 15. At least some of the time it pays to listen, eh?

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Midchuck
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 01:13 PM

Why is it bad to suck when so many guys are looking all over for someone who sucks?

Explain, please?

Peter.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 01:34 PM

Yes, Kendall--now we have three-chord wonders with capos. Didn't you ever know just three chords?

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: dwditty
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 01:39 PM

Sheesh, I thought folk songs were almost all 3 chord songs. Blues is practicaly 100%, too. Would hate to be missing all that music based on the 3 chords or less sucks rule.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 01:52 PM

Sportin' Life, as blues as it gets, uses 8 if you include the second.

A

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 02:12 PM

Once ya know the keys and the relative minors, life is good and few songs can't be done. Granted, when stuff calls for a D 13 flatted 5 flatted 9, or a few Augs or Dims, things get a little hairy for the beginner, but we were all there once.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 02:20 PM

Pheww - I joined this thread late, and had to weave my way through several exchanges on the subject of sucking...But the bottom line seems to be about what level of tolerance you are able to maintain in later life.

I am as intolerant as anybody my age, when I am not careful, though as a matter of personality I have rarely told those who in my opinion suck, that they do so. Because somewhere in all the crap, there are gems. Someone mentioned the young Dylan earlier. And I heard that Stan Rogers wrote one of my all-time favourite songs, "Lies", for his mother when he was 23.

Now, I am sure Stan wrote some crap too, when he was younger. He was a big fella though, so I bet few people told him that he sucks, even if he had deserved it. And how old was McCartney when he wrote "Yesterday"?

For every whining pimply 18-year old pouring out angst there is always a whining wrinkly xx-year old pouring out frustrations.

Writing crap is not the prerogative of the young'uns. I know. I fill buckets meself.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 02:29 PM

Chapter 2: So what is it that the young'uns have, that we don't like? Mainly the fact that they can look starry-eyed at the truths we bled to discover; and that they won't listen and learn; and that they think that they have discovered love, sex, the song of the birds and the beauty of sunsets.

So, is perhaps our intolerance rooted in frustration that our experience has not been passed on? And occasionally, surely, a little jealousy too?

Because I, for one, would gladly become a whining pimply teenager again, just for the pure joy of discovering all those things again. And I would pour out my angst in diary entry songs. And not give a gnat's fart about what the old'uns think.

Though a whining wrinkly old'un is what I am, I cannot begrudge them the right to rediscover the world. That's just normal. "Life as usual", as it were...

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 02:31 PM

Chapter 3:

LIFE AS USUAL

All day you bombard my ears
With how you have three times my years
Lessons you would try to teach
To me, but all you do is preach.
I know you have experience
But stop beating that drum
Just because I'm learning still
It doesn't mean I'm dumb;
My learning days have just begun.

You say black and I say white
And nothing that I do is right
Angrily you slam the door
And my opinions you ignore.
Sure, we have our differences,
But talk to me, don't shout
And if I see things different,
Please don't shut me out;
That's what being young is all about.

Anything I want to do
Is just a waste of time to you.
With my dreams you disagree
You want to plan my life for me.
The road that I will travel
It isn't yours to call
So I will make my own mistakes,
I'll stumble and I'll fall;
Just life as usual, that's all

You despise all my friends
You say they'll meet a sorry end.
You dread what will become of me
But learn to put your trust in me.
There's still one thing you have to learn
And that is letting go
The more you pull, the more I'll push
Don't make the distance grow;
I love you, but won't let it show

You say I'm your prince and heir
But even princes need their air.
So don't wait half the night for me
And with your love don't smother me.
Don't despair and pull your hair
And stop giving me flak.
Just be there when I need you
When I go off the track;
One day I promise I'll be back

(c)Copyright 2003 George Papavgeris