BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 07:51 AM

Yeah, brucie, that just about wraps it up...

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 08:18 AM

The following quote from my Temple Goddess, Maureen Dowd, ends with a very telling quote. From today's NY Times:

Cardinal Ratzinger did not shrink from advising American bishops in the last presidential election on bringing Catholic elected officials to heel. He warned that Catholics who deliberately voted for a candidate because of a pro-choice position were guilty of cooperating in evil, and unworthy to receive communion. Vote Democratic and lose your soul. "Panzerkardinal," as he was known, definitely isn't a man who could read Mario Cuomo's Notre Dame speech urging that pro-choice politicians be allowed in the tent and say, "He's got a point."

The Republicans can build their majority by bringing strict Catholics and evangelicals - once at odds - together on what they call "culture of life" issues.

But there's a risk, as with Tom DeLay, Dr. Bill Frist and other Republicans, that if the new pope is too heavy-handed and too fundamentalist, his approach may backfire.

Moral absolutism is relative, after all. As Bruce Landesman, a philosophy professor at the University of Utah, pointed out in a letter to The Times: "Those who hold 'liberal' views are not relativists. They simply disagree with the conservatives about what is right and wrong."

---

We don't need help. We need some sanity and less damn meddling.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:09 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Perhaps so, Amos.

But as for facism, do something about your own ugly face.

Can't you cut it off or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:21 PM

Wow, I am at a loss for words. How do you ever come up with such succinct, telling points of discussion? You should join a debating club, MG. As the mascot.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: jpk
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:44 PM

hi mg. if you could make one tenth as much sense as ann coulter then you might have something to say,without tring to copy her work.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:48 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]I do it Amos to fuck with your head. Seems to work. You keep coming back for more. Jesus, what a stroke you are.

BTW, jpk, I can't stand Ann Coulter. She is a smelly cunt with scabs that won't heal.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

Judginng from your obsessive references to such, Marty, I thought that was your type of woman.

In view of the following excerpts:—

Liberalism is a political [position] current embracing several historical and present-day ideologies that claim defense of individual liberty as the purpose of government. It typically favors the right to dissent from orthodox tenets or established authorities in political or religious matters. In this respect, it is sometimes held in contrast to conservatism. Since liberalism also focuses on the ability of individuals to structure their own society, it is almost always opposed to totalitarianism, and often to collectivist ideologies, particularly communism.

The word "liberal" derives from the Latin "liber" ("free") and liberals of all stripes tend to view themselves as friends of freedom, particularly freedom from the shackles of tradition. The origins of liberalism in the Enlightenment era contrasted this philosophy to feudalism and mercantilism. Later, as more radical philosophies articulated themselves in the course of the French Revolution and through the nineteenth century, liberalism equally defined itself in contrast to socialism and communism, although some adherents of liberalism sympathize with some of the aims and methods of social democracy.
###In general, liberals favor constitutional government, representative democracy and the rule of law. Liberals at various times have embraced both constitutional monarchy and republican government. They are generally opposed to any but the milder forms of nationalism, and usually stand in contrast to conservatives by their broader tolerance and in more readily embracing multiculturalism. Furthermore, they generally favor human rights and civil liberties, especially freedom of speech and freedom of the press…. However, the liberal commitment to unrestricted individual liberty is not necessarily absolute: as Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. said, "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre…," and liberal parties support restrictions on incitement to violence.

Liberals also typically believe in a free market and free trade, but they differ in the degree of limited government intervention in the economy which they advocate. In general, government responsibility for health, education and alleviating poverty fits into the policies of most liberal parties. But all of them, even American liberals, tend to believe in a far smaller role for the state than would be supported by most social democrats, let alone socialists or communists.

Liberals generally believe in a neutral government, in the sense that it is not for the state to determine how individuals can pursue happiness This self-determination gives way to an open mind in ethical questions. Most liberal parties support the 'pro choice' movement and advocate equal rights for women and for homosexuals. Equality before the law is crucial in liberal policies, and racism is incompatible with liberalism. All liberal parties are secular, but they differ on the issue of anti-clericalism. Liberal parties in Latin countries tend to be very anti-clerical.

Liberals agree on the idea that society should have very limited interests in the private behavior of its citizens in the areas of private sexual relations, free speech, personal conscience or religious beliefs, as well as political association. Assurance of personal liberties and freedom, particularly in the case of individual expression, is highly important to liberalism. As John Rawls put it, "The state has no right to determine a particular conception of the good life". The left-wing of liberalism, especially in the United States, considers it fundamental that society has a responsibility to guarantee equal opportunity for each of its citizens. In general, liberals do not believe that the government should directly control any industrial production through state owned enterprises, which places them in opposition to social democrats.
###Since liberalism is broad, and generally pragmatic in its orientation, there is no hard and fast list of policy prescriptions which can be universally assumed to be "liberal"…. Most liberal parties argue that the government should provide some form of health services and basic education. Also, most liberals believe that social security benefits should be financed from taxes….

Most mature, civilized countries embrace various flavors of this position, and although they may not be as wealthy and powerful as the United States, nor do they necessarily have as many citizens who are mega-billionaires, the citizenry in general is free, happy, productive, and secure, and such things as poverty and homelessness are rare to nonexistant. Working to live rather than living to work, they are less driven by the urge to acquire goods (such as a new SUV every year or a larger television set or the latest electronic gizmo), and due to humanitarian labor laws (restrictions on the number of hours per week they can be required to work and with several weeks of vacation per year rather than a mere week or two), they are able to enjoy much more leisure time with family and friends, education, cultural events, amusement, and recreation. Seasoned travelers frequently attest that most Europeans are relaxed and open, and tend to enjoy life in general much more than most Americans, who, by contrast, are driven, overworked, worried, and generally up-tight, rarely seeming to have time to enjoy themselves, and don't seem to know how even when they do get a little time off.

In a country in which the primary concern is not the welfare and well-being of the people, and in which the government is of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations, such concerns as the welfare of the populace is often inimical to the primary concern of those corporations. That primary concern is not goods and services (which should be the purpose of their existence in the first place), but the bottom line and the quarterly report to stockholders, i.e. maximizing profit. This, as we have seen, "justifies" all manner of ethical bottom-feeding, resulting in a total disregard for the welfare of those whom the system ultimately depends on, including its investors (pension funds, for example). This promotes a culture driven by greed and lust for acquisition that results in the insecurity and anxiety that plagues and drives most American working people at all levels, including the highest paid. And ultimately, it influences the foreign policy iu a way that brings the country into unnecessary conflict with the rest of the world.

I am a liberal and proud of the fact. I need no help, thank you very much.

Don Firth

The full article (entry) HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 06:34 PM

Ugly face, stroke and smelly cunt? That's all you have to contribute to the thread you started since I was here yesterday? I am SO glad I checked in tonight to see how this was going. Your debating skills are right on par per usual. Maybe you should try music.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 06:50 PM

I know what you meant, gnu. Confronted with such a Cosmic level of intellectial accuteness and perspicacity, what can I say?

I, too, am in awe!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 06:54 PM

Word on the street is that Martin can do a fairly decent "Puff the Magic Dragon' in G using 1st position chords so maybe that is his calling, gnu??? But maybe not... I haven't actually heard his version yet so, hey, his debating skills may yet be his stronger suit...

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: GUEST,Orpheus
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 07:03 PM

Anyone as permeated with hatred as Martin Gibson is has no music in him.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 07:27 PM

Folk Wisdom:

It's not a good idea to rassle with a hog. He won't know if you win, you get shit all over you, and the swine loves it.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 07:34 PM

BTW, Marty, when confronted with a mountain, the capitalist builds a road around the mountain while the communist tunnels through the mountain. You don't need a college level economics class to understand the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 04:20 PM

Well, liberals are normally feared and despised in 2 kinds of political systems...those that are already a military (or religious) dictatorship...or those that aren't yet, but are heading in that direction.

A liberal is basically someone who is flexible when it comes to ideas. In most places that is considered an asset...but not in a place that wishes to establish mind control over its citizenry.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:56 PM

Debating skills? Why bother? I am not here to debate as I have said over and over again.

Debate here is worthless. It proves nothing when you converse with socialist types who are mired in their own little world of didain for most everything that is decent and good, anyway.

I would just rather put my ideas out there and watch you jump up and down, bobert.

I'll take a nice family like I've got bobert anyday over your debating skills, which really aren't much but a lot of bad grammar, pal.

BTW, what was bleeped is that I do not like Ann Coulter, but in a stronger, more colorful way.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:11 PM

Life is good. (smile)

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 03:54 PM

don firth, would you enjoy it if Ann coulter sat on your face?

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: jpk
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:32 PM

i do not think that responding to mg,s mudslinging,insults or other democratic party style conversation is worth the time or effort. hence i will bide my time and let him fade into the darkness of the(mind) from wence he slitherd.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:46 PM

jpk, you are just peachy keen!

I'm standing in the bright sunlight and plan to for a long time.

Forums need types like you who are so easily offended. Makes for great entertainment.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:52 PM

All the above taken into consideration, I must admit to being a liberal. And a conservative with some other issues. And an anarchist with yet others. And a communist with others. And somewhere to the right of George Bush with others. Scary, huh?

I gave up supporting political 'parties' in my youth because I found it to be counter-productive. I hated lock-step all my life, and that is the ultimate in lock-step.

That's all I gotta say.



A good friend of mine here wrote to me a few days ago and said he was gonna give up the political threads. I think I may join him, because I see little new coming out of these things. SSDD. Be good to go away for a bit.

Later,

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 05:00 PM

brucie,

Perhaps you are a moderate, like I have always claimed to be.

trouble is, the middle is just too far right for radical far-left wingers. tehy just don't get it that they are as ranting as the far right.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: GUEST,Gilda
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 06:25 PM

Gobson...a Moderate...Members that are still coming down here to martian's BS Section have got to laugh at that statement.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 07:06 PM

I find these American political threads really weird.

Perhaps we should wind up the Yanks with threads about how Republicans are left wing terrorists and drug dealers.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Chris Green
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 07:16 PM

I find it far more scary that they're insular, feeble-minded cretins who couldn't find their arses with both hands, a compass, a map and a sherpa guide!

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 07:24 PM

I find these American political threads really weird.

There's a very good reason for this. American politics are really weird. The threads just reflect the actual political reality here.

Perhaps we should wind up the Yanks with threads about how Republicans are left wing terrorists and drug dealers.

We don't need you to wind us up. We are quite capable of winding ourselves up, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Alba
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 07:26 PM

LOL Carol...
Blessings
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 09:47 PM

I liked that also, CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 09:54 PM

Very true, CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 10:05 PM

(chuckle)

I think you're on the right track, Bruce. Like you said, SSDD.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: GUEST,Fenian Raider
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 10:06 PM

Once I stopped laughing my ass off, I actually considered some of what Martin had to say. And then continued to laugh my ass off.

trouble is, the middle is just too far right for radical far-left wingers. tehy just don't get it that they are as ranting as the far right.

Uh-huh. And the only reason the radical far-left rant is because THEY'RE SICK OF HEARING THE RADICAL FAR-RIGHT RANT.
Strange, I just don't see a "middle", as you claim to be, posting what you did.
~FR

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 10:16 PM

Guest, Fenian, I don't know who the hell you are, but I can tell you for sure I sit on the moderate fence.

Once upon a time I was also a dope smoking old hippie like many here until I realized life was much more rewarding if you lived it instead of constantly criticised it. If a few others here grew up also, they would know what I am talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:21 PM

martin gibson is really lepus rex. lepus I'm getting very bored with your attacks on old people. five years is too long for this to go on. grow up

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:33 PM

Really, harpgirl? That would be most interesting. I'm going to go check personas...

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:57 PM

Nope. No way.

1) Lepus Rex sometimes exhibited a sense of humor and a light touch.
2) Lepus Rex was able to reason.
3) Lepus Rex was able to make clickys.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:23 AM

//*QUOTE:
Guest, Fenian, I don't know who the hell you are, but I can tell you for sure I sit on the moderate fence.
//end QUOTE
Somehow I find that so convincing.
~FR

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 09:12 AM

Martin, I didn't smoke dope even in the early 70's, when everyone else I knew did. I didn't smoke cigarettes either. Yuck.

I was also more socially radical than most of them (cause most of them were just doing it to be cool, whereas I was doing it out of true belief). I am still more radical than most of them.

I also believe in God...way, way more than I believe in most things, in fact. I love God. I honor God. But I am no fundamentalist...I shudder when I think of the fundamentalists of any organized religion.

And I am not opposed on principle to people owning guns. I've known plenty of totally responsible and harmless people who owned guns, so why would I be opposed to it?

A stereotype is just something people make up in their own minds, and they use it to clothe their raging fears and hatreds. Then they go around trying to dress other people up in the false clothing they made for them. (And we probably all do it at times, so it would be best to watch one's own thoughts carefully so as to weed out this nasty tendency, wouldn't it?)

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: harpgirl
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:42 AM

well, I was wrong about you and sorcha, ebbie. so i could very well be wrong about mg and lepus. but I don't think I am. so lepus will have to prove he isn't mg. my theory is lepus found a jewish girlfriend...if lepus isn't mg he will find a way to make a fool out of me for this accusation. My intent though is to inject some reasonableness into the forum again since no one will ban mg like they did gargoyle. oh well, i'm an old hippie fool!
l,h

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:03 PM

No, harpgirl. You are a REAL OLD hippie fool.

Little Hawk, you were always pretty cool in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 03:06 PM

Well, thanks, Martin. I appreciate your good points too.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: harpgirl
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 03:27 PM

I am a real old hippie fool but mg, you're lepus rex. why don't you just be yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 03:47 PM

Seems to me that his sense of humour is a bit different from Lepus Rex, as I recall Lepus Rex.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: jpk
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 04:14 PM

pray be but can mg. do anything besides spew insults and profanity

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: jpk
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 04:53 PM

just goes to show, that is all he knows

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: frogprince
Date: 06 May 05 - 02:50 PM

As I've looked through this, and other related material here, lately, I've seen a great light, and I feel led to submit this for your consideration:
      
    "A Creed for the American Conservative of Today"

1. Remember that the founders of this country were inspired by Almighty God. Any change in our nation's laws or Constitution more recent than the original 10 amendments, the "Bill of Rights", is in violation of His will.

2. Whatever the Bible says is wrong, is wrong; we have
    already gone astray in far too many respects, such as:
        A. not only allowing women to speak in our churches,
            but in many cases allowing them to usurp positions of
            authority.
        B. abolishing slavery; the Bible gives extensive guidance
          in the care and management of slaves; it should be
          obvious from this that our almighty and unchanging God
          has always willed that slavery be a normal institution of
          society.

3. If God had wanted the other people of this earth to enjoy the privileges and benefits of American citizenship, they would have been born here.

4. If you want to enjoy the privileges and benefits of American life, speak American; not some heathen foreign tongue, not some dialect distinct from that spoken by our Founding Fathers, not "English", but proper American.

5.. The goverments, and legal systems, of the other nations of earth are NOT inspired by God. Therefore it is inappropriate for any American to pay any heed to them whatever.

6. No one has ever achieved a position of earthly authority apart from the will and purpose of God. Therefore Americans not only have no right whatever to disobey any American law, but it can be further stated that it is a sin before God, and should be punishable under law, to fail to cooperate to the full extent of one's ability with all policies and actions of our national leaders. Above all it is crucial that no American should ever hesitate to kill whomever our national leaders tell us to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 May 05 - 03:30 PM

frogprince, you are finally catching on.

Now, if we can just do something about those homosexual Christian priests...........................

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:31 PM

"homosexual Christian priests"

The problem is not one of homosexuality, per se. In fact, Catholicism does not see homosexuality as 'wrong'. Basically, two issues are being conflated here and I think that should be addressed.

1) The Catholic church states that homosexuality itself is not wrong. ACTING on sexual urges that lead to same-sex contacts IS wrong. (I know, I know.)

2) There are homosexual rabbis who practice and lead congregations. I believe reform Judaism accepts same-sex civil marriages, although I am aware that Conservative Judaism does not.

Years back I read a study which boiled down to this: Your child is statistically sexually safer with a homosexual than with a heterosexual.

The issue that raised its ugly head in the past few years was the one of children having been molested and sexually abused by priests and ministers. That has nothing to do with homosexuality. So, maybe we should keep the issues separate.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 05 - 08:32 PM

frogprince, in the interests of sanctity and an unblemished people, I think you should add several other nefarious activities to your list, from adultery to bestiality to heresy to gossip. The people who indulge in these are all subject to being put to death, preferably by stoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 09:02 PM

Sheeeeeeet. Hey, I was just kidding about the goats.

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 09:07 PM

But then again, how stoned do ya get?

Subject: RE: BS: Help for Mudcat Liberals
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 05 - 09:17 PM

Just stoned enuf to say 100 and pass it over here.