'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Peace
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 08:52 PM

And, IMO, that is one helluva song.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 03:53 AM

Why be flip for the sake of it?
My songs to generalise are about feelings and emotions but I am a guy so maybe people dont notice that.I think my song about child prostitution is quite emotional,but perhaps because I am a chap it doesnt count,after all men are the rapists and murderers are they not?
African people were the victims of slavery and white males the evildoers who enslaved them.
Of course that is black and white thinking and to suggest any other shades of gray in the story would be distasteful,racist,sexist not pc
etc But we all know that not all those who use kids as money earning sex toys are men,but there are so many reasons why a woman involved in this disgusting trade was forced too do it by financial pressures or the idea that it was reallly the best they could do for their own children.
And of course slvery didnt exist in Northern Africa until it was taken there by the europeans.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:27 AM

This is "Back home on the Farm"

I listened to a BBC world service report and they interveiwed a child who had ended up in the sex trade being sold to men in the so called civilized, or some times advanced nations of Europe.
They interveiwed the parents,extended families and even some of the perpetraters who had been caught.
The impression I was left with was that none of the officials of the countries where this child was kidnapped and those where they were forced to "work" were really that bothered by their plight.
After all there was a profit being made and foriegn income to their coffers.
But I digress is this a womans song or a mans?

Stolen from my parents farm
By an ugly man in a rusty car
He drove for hours we went so far
He locked me in a room

He brought his friends to see his trophy
Many of them paid to have me
Made me sick made me sore
I never had a man before

Took me on a mighty jet plane
Far across a sparkling ocean
To a land I never knew
Another room without a view

Many men ten or twenty
Every day even Sunday
Other children here with me
Sometimes we would cry

Now the needles seem so friendly
Bring me back my loving family
For a while I can be
Back home on the farm

There the summer sun is shining
There my dog for me is pining
There is where I want to be
With the other me.

There the summer sun is shining
Stolen childhood days are dying
There is where I want to be
With the real me.

I have performed this once in a local Pub.
There was a shocked hush around the place ,one startled burst of laughter was breifly heard,embarrassment? Maybe but soon choked of by the angry stares from the other patrons.
Mostly men BTW.

I think it does carry my emotions at hearing the graphic account of a child as a peice of meat and source of income but they are a guys emotions,and that I cant avoid.
Is it a womans song or a mans though?
I should have been comfortably flippant I know but hey I am a nasty aggressive man.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Gurney
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:27 AM

(Stage direction: Chuckle.) Perhaps, Rockhen, you should write a song about a hairdresser, non gender-specific. At least, then, you could work up the sort of intro that Vin Garbutt would use, based on this thread and your original observations.

Cyril Tawney wrote a moving song apparently sung by an abandoned, pregnant woman, in the first person. 'Bitter-Sweet Bed.' Just an observation.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 10:08 AM

Speakin' of which:

Joni Mitchell's birthday today. Happy Birthday, Joni. Love your music and thanks for helping me up when I fell down the stairs. You always were a class act.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Rockhen
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 10:35 AM

Twangy, I have heard you sing the song you mentioned and I thought it was a powerful one.
Not a 'man's' or 'woman's' song, just a great one.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 10:55 AM

Personal observations and opinions here, so don't shout too loud if you disagree.

There are a small number of first person songs that really do demand to be sung by one sex or the other, mainly women.

There is a much, much larger number of such songs that are easier to make work if sung by one sex. A reasonable performer of one sex might be able to make it work, but it would take a really good one of the other sex to do so.

Any collection (ie an album or evenings worth, not two songs) of songs on the same subject, from similar perspectives will seem boring, unless they are good songs, and selected very carefully.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Rockhen
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 11:02 AM

One point occurred to me, in the past I used to try consciously not to write in a sentimental style. It is only since I have co-written some songs with a friend(male) and played along on another bloke's songs (haha you know who you are!) that I have allowed myself to write in a way that is sometimes perhaps more emotional. These days I don't worry about expressing my feelings as much although I am still wary of revealing too much of my deepest thoughts in my songs... I suppose that is a bit sad, really. Or is it just self-preservation in case you say something you shouldn't, reveal too much or hurt someone, if they happen to hear a song which is obviously connected to them? Maybe, as you get more confident and hopefully(?!) more mature, you feel more able to be more open.
Sometimes, writing a song can be almost like a cleansing process or have a healing effect, if something disturbs or upsets you.Other times it can be a way of getting a point or principle over. Sometimes, you tell a story, other times you have a laugh at yourself or try to amuse others for a minute or two, by your observations of life. Maybe you write a song for someone you love or about someone or something you can't stand.
Whatever the reason for a song, it is always individual to you, I guess, whether you are male or female.
It is interesting when you hear a song that you know already, being sung by someone of the opposite sex to the original version. Often, I think, it seems to make more of a difference to the song than if covered by a person of the same sex as the original version. Not necessarily a difference in either a negative, or positive, way, it just means you notice that the song is different more if the singer is of the opposite sex to the original vocalist. Sometimes, I think it makes you listen to the words more carefully, maybe in a conscious attempt to see if it still 'works' as a song? I don't know...just pondering and woffling on aloud!

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Rockhen
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 11:11 AM

I agree with Bunnahabhain that "Any collection (ie an album or evenings worth, not two songs) of songs on the same subject, from similar perspectives will seem boring, unless they are good songs, and selected very carefully."
It can be very easy to write in a similar style about similar subjects and become stuck in a rut. That is just one of the many good reasons for listening to as many other perfomers play live as possible as it can help you avoid becoming to introspective.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: frogprince
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 03:23 PM

Tim, I consider that a great lyric. A man's song, or a woman's song? I can "hear" at least a couple of male singers I know doing it, and definitely at least a couple of woman singers.
If I saw the lyric without a name attached, I suspect that I would bet a nickle (not a dime) that it was written by a woman. That says more about me, and some remaining tendency in me to think in stereotypes, than it says about you.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 06:22 PM

Tim, your song says more or less what I would expect to feel in that child's place. Some feelings aren't gender-specific after all, but a matter of decency (or the absence of). Thank you.

Peace, thank you too, but I don't think an apology on your part was called for (and I notice the regrettable absence of the term from my own posting ...). I won't hijack this thread again by explaining what provoked my reaction (too long a story), but maybe we'll meet some day and can talk it over.

Apart from a very few lapses :-), I think this is a great thread! Oh, and Tim's song reminded me of Eric Bogle's 'At Risk'. Though the perspective is from the outside, it conveys very chillingly the situation of abused children.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 06:47 PM

Susanne, you are very gracious. Thank you.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:39 AM

Cheers for kind comments been a good discusion aint it?

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: NormanD
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 05:45 AM

What about songs that have to be sung by men AND women together?

One I can think of is John Prine's "In Spite Of Ourselves", a duet by him and Iris Dement. It's a little romantic-comic-drama song, a film theme tune. It's one of those country duets: he sings, she sings.

One of her memorable verses is:
"He ain't got laid in a month of Sundays / Caught him once, sniffing my undies...."

Any other duets like this anyone knows of?

Noman

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 06:42 AM

There are some typical folk songs I would call female, which I sing nevertheless because they are so beautiful, e.g. The Blue Stork, or another one a typical song from the spinning room:
[Translated from the German] Catherine, dont trust a soldier. They will seduce you, you will loose your honour; really, believe it ... Where is the soldier who has seduced you? He has marched off, is billeted far in the capital, and has forgotten you.
Having served my time, and knowing exactly what soldiers want I thought it appropriate to sing this song not only in the bathtub, but also in the presence of my two lovely daughters.
I think it doesn't matter whether a song is "male" or "female", as long it is only good. Singing a fine song of the opposite gender you might account for Brecht's concept of "alienation".

A fine definition it is for Susanne (skw): gracious. How right you are. Meet her at the next Eurogathering.

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 05:54 AM

Rita MacNeil wrote "Working Man" and it is probably her biggest hit. Rita has always championed womens right to equality, but she certainly wrote and sings this great song from a mans perspective.
             Obie

Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 11:32 AM

Parenthetically, when women aren't free, neither are men.