Songs to avoid...

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Nick
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:23 AM

The last time I saw Bob Fox play he sang 'Shoals of Herring'. He said in his patter before singing it that it was a song that he had NOT sung for ages because he felt it had been overdone. Having not sung it for years he had realised though that it was perhaps now underdone and was too good a song not to be sung ...

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:53 AM

Maybe some songs simply need to be rested. When I sang "Martin Said to his Man" I found that there were people in folk club audiences who had never heard it before. And were glad to hear it for the very first time.

One song that really irritates me though is "The Black Velvet Band". I am taking guitar lessons and the teacher plays blues, not folk. He just loves "The Black Velvet Band" and we keep playing it. I am sure it was a good song, about 30-40 years ago when the Dubliners used to play it. Still is a good song really, but it will definitely NOT be going into my repertoire.

We have a singer who sings "The Wild Rover" at the folk clubs. He's a pleasant chap and he sings it well. We all do try to join in with him. But no, this won't be going in to my repertoire either.

"Shoals of herring" is a good song. I'm not saying it would be at the top of my list, but I wouldn't object to singing it - probably after several dozen others though.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:58 AM

I virtually do nothing but old music. The old folk-country classuc Long Black Veil I always make a quip before I sing it on how hip I feel doing a song recently recorded by Dave Mathews.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:06 AM

Northerner, This is a very partisan question but as you are based in the North East have you considered any of the many fine songs of our region.
This may just be my own experience,but "Byker Hill" is a beautiful song that I have not heard sung live for a tidy while.
I know that it's written from a male perspective but the finest version I ever heard was by a Woman.
So how about it?
(There are of course many others if this particular example does not appeal.)

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:12 AM

There's more than one version and tune for variants of "The Black Velvet Band".

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Crystal
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:29 AM

Busk Busk is a fab song! I always think that if you sing what you love even the horiest old chestnut will sound good (with the possible exception of the Wild Rover!)

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:58 AM

Hi Martin!

Hello Purple Foxx. Yes, I could do songs of the North-East, though I do think that there are some that are better sung by a man. There's "Here's the Tender Coming", which is a pretty one, that I haven't heard live in a long while. "Byker Hill" - I think I've got an old LP with Martin Carthy singing it - yes, that's a possibility.

Hello Foolstroupe. Other versions of "The Black Velvet Band" - I shall investigate. Though there's a possibility that my mind would revert to the older one that I already know. It would certainly give it more life.

Hello Crystal. I will probably sing "Busk, Busk" next week. I've just about got it off.

Thank you all for the suggestions!

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Scoville
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 11:09 AM

Depends on where you are (what your audience is tired of hearing), but it also depends on what you do with what you're playing. There are tunes I hate and tunes I think are good but am sick to death of hearing, but that doesn't mean that there can't be good renditions of them.

I used to do open mics with a guy who had a great voice, lovely guitar style, and repertoire of good songs, but played the same set every month. Yawn. Conversely, I thought I'd shoot myself if I ever heard "Whiskey Before Breakfast" again but then a friend loaned me a CD that had on it a novel arrangement, and suddenly it sounds like a great tune again. I'd rather hear an interesting (this does not mean "gimmicky", it just means you aren't trying to do it just like everyone else does it) version of not-my-favorite-song than an uninspired plod through an otherwise decent one. We have a lot of plodding around here. Drives me insane.

I'm not a particularly skilled musician--no fancy arrangements here--so my rule was always that I had to have at least 50% new stuff at every open mic, and that any old stuff 1) had not been played recently or 2) was a demonstrated crowd-pleaser. (I was only playing 4-5 song per set--obviously you can't do this with large sets.) I tried to find songs that were distinctive and that other people weren't playing into the ground. I was amazed at what people knew and didn't know, and what people wanted to hear that we never played. I got up one night and did "Engine 143", which none of my music buddies here know, and suddenly half the audience was singing along.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 11:44 AM

There's some good points there Scoville. So far I have sung unaccompanied or told stories. I am learning to play the guitar but am not yet at the standard where I would play it in public.

I have told/sung the same stories/song at the different clubs, but have tried to avoid using the same material at the same club. If I have nothing that I feel is worth offering then I sit and listen and continue learning. If I sing a song at a club on a Monday, then yes, I am likely to use it another club on a Thursday or Friday following that. There are several performers like myself who go to these same clubs and we follow this same procedure. We all get to know each other's repertoire! I don't mind this as it helps me to become familiar with more songs. Most of the non-performers seem to go to only one club though. I have repeated one song at the same club, but it was a request from the club organiser.

I have noticed that one performer keeps a notebook to note down which material he has used in a club. That helps him to avoid using that same material at that club for a decent interval. I need to follow his example.

One difficulty I am finding is that my singing seems to be more popular than my storytelling. I enjoy being able to please with my songs! But I love my stories too and want to reach an audience with them also. I only started learning storytelling last year and I probably don't sound quite as good yet as someone who is very experienced. I intend going to some storytelling workshops this year to learn what I can do to improve. It's possible though that the spoken word just isn't as popular with some of the audience as singing. I am looking for further advice on this, probably from a fellow storyteller. I'm not a bad storyteller, just a learner!

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Ernest
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 01:43 PM

to Martin Gibson:
Even Mick Jagger sang "Long Black Veil" - on the Chieftains album of the same name( since I know you are not much into irish music I thought I might tell you, pardon me if you knew already).
Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Melani
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 02:50 PM

Just always play to your audience, and everyone will have a good time.

It's interesting how songs go in and out of fashion. At our chantey sing, "The Sloop John B" used to be considered a really dorky song, but there is one very sweet person who really likes it and sings it every time. As a result, it has now become quite popular and is sung with great enthusiasm--all because the singer is such a nice person.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 02:26 PM

Will you define, "Northeast" for this colonial? I ask because when I was in England during my Fulbright year(1952-53) I became acquainted with Alfred Williams, who had been quietly collecting his local songs for years and had published a good-sized volume, FOLK SONGS OF THE UPPER THAMES. Just before I left for home,he presented to me a copy of this lovely book- but I have not seen nor heard of anyone else who knows of him or his fine collection.

In his introduction, he says he means, by Upper Thames Valley, "that part between Oxford, Abingdon, and Wantage on the one hand, and Swindon, Purton, and Cirencester on the other." Yes, I could of course look on a map and answer my own question, but this is more fun, is it not?

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 02:38 PM

Yes it is more fun kytrad I define North East England as North of the River Tees, South of the River Tweed ,east of the Penine hills and of course west of the North Sea.
That probably requires a map as well.
Will "The right hand side of the English side of the England/Scotland border" help? :-)

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: shepherdlass
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 02:42 PM

Kytrad, from all that's gone before in this thread, I think we're reasonably safe defining the North East as the area between Berwick and Teesside, particularly centred round Newcastle, Gateshead, Sunderland and Durham. Hate defining things like this, though, because someone's bound to tell me I'm wrong.

As for whether songs can become too hackneyed to play ... maybe it depends on how you do them? I didn't honestly think I could ever be surprised by "Dance to your Daddy" and then along come Nancy Kerr and James Fagan with a cracking arrangement that puts a completely new twist on it. Also, I know Jim Moray's a bit in the doghouse on Mudcat at the moment after some unwise comments in the Folk Britannia programmes, but his version of "Early One Morning" communicates words that had been rendered meaningless by a century or so of schoolkids being force-fed it as a singalong.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 07:56 PM

Hello Jean

I live in Middlesbrough; that's just south of the Tees.

That book sounds vaguely familiar. I used to borrow or read books on folk-songs from the library when I studied for my first degree, so possibly I read it then. I used to look for the words of favourite songs.   

I sang "Loving Hannah" tonight at the Globe Folk Club, Guisborough. It went down just fine. I was telling the audience about this folk-singer from Kentucky - they were absolutely fascinated!

Tomorrow night I am involved with a different type of folk-music. I am in an Afro-European drumming circle (we play djembes) and in the evening we are playing at a function to celebrate the retirement of a local doctor. I find that the African immigrants are still very close to their own folk-music - it is very refreshing.

I hope that you have a pleasant weekend.

Diane Taylor

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 08:54 PM

Hi Northerner,
To us north of the Tweed you're a southerner, and the term North-east usually refers to Aberdeenshire, Moray, Nairn, etc, but don't let this comment upset you (said with tongue firmly in cheek!)
Have you ever been to any of the Both Sides the Tweed festivals? One of the strongest points is the mingling of songs from both sides of the border between England and Scotland (even if we did ask for an interpreter for BOTH English and Scots of one of the Geordie singers last year!)
I agree with previous posters that it's OK to do some of the "old chestnuts" but also good to mix in some contemporary stuff or lesser known traditional songs or your own material, and don't feel obliged to do all chorus songs.
I think the best policy is to do songs you enjoy and believe in and it will show in the performance.
Good luck
TB

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:58 AM

Hello Tattie Bogle!

My parents were Scots!!!! Lots of good Northern blood here!!!!!

Yes, I've plenty of good festivals to explore. My next jaunt is up to the north of Scotland for a few days to see a cousin in Turriff. I will be stopping off for a couple of days in Aberdeen and will be going to one of the events that is on for Aberdeen's storytelling festival.

I haven't been to any of the Both Side of the Tweed Festivals yet, but yes I think it should go on my to-do list.

Thank you for your advice. I am concentrating on the older material in my repertoire at present as they are easier for me to learn. If material is lesser known though I wonder if I should hand out a songsheet or two? It's very disconcerting to sing a chorus song as a solo! I will be moving on to lesser known material eventually; it's just a matter of knowing how to tackle it.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: melodeonboy
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 06:01 PM

"Wild Mountain Thyme" is indeed a little cliched, but has the advantage of being a rip-roaring chorus song with plenty of harmony possibilities.

"The Wild Rover" (poor thing) has been sadly overused and has had the soul nearly stripped out of it, but in the hands of an expert - such as Clive from The Old House At Home Acoustic Music Club in Maidstone, Kent - it can take on a new lease of life. His version, using the singing style and music of Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World", is nothing short of brilliant.

Under no circumstances should you (or anyone else, for that matter) attempt to play "Streets of London". This song was naff to start with, and if anyone plays it within a fifty-mile radius of Sittingbourne, Kent I have sleepless nights. Actually, if you're playing it in the far north it probably won't affect me (but it could scar you for life!).

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 07:28 PM

Hello Northerner. I live in Middlesbrough and was born in Aberdeen. I mostly play tunes, but have recently started singing - though it's not something I overdo :-) I was one of those who was told he couldn't sing, but then went on a weekend workshop for the "tone deaf" (Almost no one is, BTW) and that gave me confidence to give it a go.

What clubs do you go to? I go to Caedmon Folk classes at the Sage on a Tuesday night, so my collection of tunes such as it is has become seriously infected by the Northumbrian repertoire. I also go to Thirsk on a Thursday night - a very easy going group with an eclectic mix of stuff. I have to ration what I do as my wife has been known to mutter about never seeing me and maintaining domestic harmony is important :-).

PM me if you want to comare notes.

Tattie Bogle, I spent some time in Thurso many years ago. I have never quite been able to think of Aberdeen as truly "North East" since :-)

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Bert
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 02:58 AM

If you picture a map of England, the North East is up the top, on the skinny part, on the right hand side. The Upper Thames Valley is out to the left of London in the fat part of England.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 05:48 AM

Hi again Bert!

Hello Tootler

There's nothing in Middlesbrough itself, but quite a number of other activities locally.

In Stockton-on-Tees get along to Ron Angel and co at the Sun Inn, Knowles Street, Monday nights. Good atmosphere and some great choruses. They're particularly strong on sea shanties!! Tomorrow night is Singaround night so get along to it if you can! Fiona Harley has a monthly folk club at the Pot and Glass, Egglescliffe; it's on this week though am not sure if I'll be going this time or not. On Thursday there's the Cutty Wren Folk Club at the Duke William, Skelton, run by the incomparable John Taylor. Fridays there's the Globe Folk Club, Guisborough, a newish club but coming along nicely. Once a month there's one at Stokesley, at the Railway Hotel I think it's called - it is another really good singing folk club. There are others locally including two at Hartlepool, one at Saltburn (a couple of sessions there too, that might appeal to you), and The Wilsons over in Wolviston on a Thursday night, the Wellington I think it is, plus another at Guisborough on a Sunday night. Full details if you get a copy of Trevor Lister's Folk Roundabout.

If you want something a bit different, there's a drumming circle in the trade union building (can't remember its full name), Borough Road, Middlesbrough, on Mondays 5-30 - 7.30 pm. Djembes! You don't have to own one as they are provided. I go there before going on to Stockton. Very friendly and we do the occasional gig. Did one last night, helping out at a doctor's send-off party over in Great Ayton. Johnny, our lead singer was in fine form so we had African songs, and a Kurdish man there gave us a Kurdish folk-song too! I'm hoping that the Tees Valley World Drummers, will be at the Nature's World Folk Festival this year. It's a fun thing to do and you're welcome to join us, along with your missus!!!

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Greyeyes
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:34 AM

An interesting anomaly, kytrad writes above "when I was in England during my Fulbright year(1952-53) I became acquainted with Alfred Williams, who had been quietly collecting his local songs for years and had published a good-sized volume, FOLK SONGS OF THE UPPER THAMES. Just before I left for home he presented to me a copy of this lovely book- but I have not seen nor heard of anyone else who knows of him or his fine collection."

Alfred Williams died in 1930.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:12 AM

Many years ago I was MCing at a singers night - and kicked off the evening with a couple of 'songs from the bottom of the barrel'. Everyone else picked up on the theme and it was one of the best nights we had.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:21 AM

In the autumn. I regularly do 'The Ripe & Bearded Barley' which is from the Alfred Williams collection

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM

I need to acquire a copy of "Folksongs of the Upper Thames" -- I was introduced to it when Jeff Warner started singing "Joke and Push About the Pitcher" and gave me a photocopy of the page.

There are a lot of singers out there today (in the US at least) who have never heard of Frankie Armstrong, Shirley Collins, Bob and Ron Copper, even Louis Killen and others.

If they are not currently recording or being played on the "folk" shows (which seem to tend towards contemporary singer-songwriters anyway), they're unfamiliar with the singer, the purer arrangements, and a lot of the songs. That means a lot of material is "new" again.

Linn

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: GUEST,oldnickilby
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 09:05 AM

If you are looking for A W's F S U T there is a great site for old books , ABEBOOKS. Sorry I am not a techy so cant do the blue clicky

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: quokka
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:11 AM

A relative, maybe?

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 12:24 PM

Interesting to see a thread that I started come back up again. The lyrics from the book "Folksongs of the Upper Thames" are available online. Sorry not sure about that blue clicky thing. http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/community/getfolk.php?id=1

Not sure that I ever bought this but seem to remember reading it when I first started out. That makes a lot of sense because the library providing the online copy is probably the library that I borrowed the book from.

Songs come back into fashion. I have found that some of the songs that I sung when I started out had gone out of fashion but are becoming popular again.

I've finally managed to see some wonderful singers that influenced me when I started, like Frankie Armstrong.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: GUEST,Norcsalordie
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:14 PM

Once you get out of the folk clubs and into live music pubs with predominantly general public rather than folkies, the old favourites come into their own. That's when you'll get a pub full of happy people glad to hear something they know and can join in with - we count our success on the number of smiling faces. With all due respect to all you lovely people if we had to rely solely on folkies we would be back on the 9 to 5

We are often asked for wild rover, whiskey in the jar, dirty old town etc and if that's what they want then that's what they get - but it doesn't stop us writing our own material and seeking out the obscure


Drunken Sailor amongst others