BS: 'Gay' parents?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 07:05 AM

Yes Les I respect Freda's opinions very much, she is another who bases all her arguments on reason.

However, I still think this is a very serious matter and chilren are being placed in a very dangerous position through our adherence to PC.
Children brought up by a "same sex couple" also face a young life of taunting and bullying by their peers.
Something which never seems to have been taken into account by the authorities, but which can blight a child's life forever.

By the way Les, thank you for that kind and understanding post..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 07:47 AM

Ake, thanks for your kind words but i can be as unreasonable as anyone. re the bullying, when I went to school, there was not one child who was not teased at some time, about something. I was teased about my name (not freda) because it sounded a bit different. Other kids were teased about anything - kids would try you out, pick on you for anything. I was lucky, it didnt bother me. I have a friend at work who is northern european and very tall and glamorous. Her son has been teased because she "looks like a prostitute". Other kids have been teased because their mother is too frumpy. Something people have to learn in the schoolyard is to stick up for themselves, learn how to handle things.

This morning I had coffee with a friend from work, a woman, and her female partner. They showed me their beautiful baby boy, we had a long talk about life the universe and everything. This child will not be disadvantaged in any way, he will have two beautiful, intelligent mothers to help him on his way. These kids, with parents who care, are the lucky ones.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 08:33 AM

Ake says: "In my opinion The "cockup" and failure of Social services was BECAUSE of the sexual orientation of the abusers"

Ake, you must live in a cave. Get real. Because there is such a stereotype, the exact opposite of what you have posted is true. People like you can be counted on to call in allegations of abuse when a homosexual father is standing in the driveway giving his foster son a hug, or a lesbian foster mother is holding her 8 year old daughter's hand. Get a grip. The homosexual community is under a very fine microscope by those who don't understand or won't accept that they are PEOPLE and every little thing is reported. A child in a straight foster home with an adult male is much more likely to be abused.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 08:35 AM

Akenaton asks
"Can you honestly say with hand on heart that as a child you or any of your friends have never recieved unwelcome attention from homosexuals"

I would ask all women a very similar question
"Can you honestly say with hand on heart that as a child you or any of your friends have never recieved unwelcome attention from men"

Men tend to be much more sexually predatory than women. Gay or straight makes no difference.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 08:42 AM

Akenaton: I have been away for a day - busking, karate training and the World Cup! So I am only now able to respond to a couple of your points.
Where I think you are on stronger ground, is that it is possible that a climate of political correctness may have given increased protection to perverts (who also happened to be homosexual). I have not lived in the UK for over twenty years, so I am open to the suggestion that may have been the case. As for the suitability of homosexuals in general to have care of children, I am unable to improve on Don T's remarks.
There are a couple of questions, which you asked earlier, which deserve an answer. The most important was about in what cases it would be the best solution to place a child in the care of two male homosexuals. I would say in rare cases, but that there are cases. I saw a TV documentary in Germany, where just that had happened to a couple of lads in the Eifel, to the south west of Cologne. They seemed happy, content and well cared for. They certainly preferred it to living in a children's home or returning to a disfunctional family. I could also imagine that in a household, in which a gay teenager's sexuality was emerging and was neither accepted nor accommodated by the family, it would be better to place the child with understanding carers.
The less important question was about whether I experienced unwanted attention from potential abusers in my childhood. If I did, I am unable to recall it now. I do not want to repeat the story again, as it is elsewhere on Mudcat, but I certainly was one recipient of brutal treatment, when I was eight. That was from the headmaster, who was in charge of a small, private school. To the parents, he came over as the most urbane and charming man. He was not homosexual. If anyone dares to handle my children as he handled the kids in his care, they had better hope that the police catch them before I do.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 08:55 AM

alan, I met with some old school friends a couple of weeks ago. there were five of us, all comparing notes about our time in high school. we hadn't seen each other for a couple of decades and talked mostly of good memories and funny things that had happened. Other things camne up. The women present had both been touched sexually, one by a teacher and the other by a senior male student when she was 12. The men had all been caned mercilessly by various male teachers. School in those days was a pretty rough experience - the strange thing was that none of us spoke to each other at the time about what had happened, we all grew up feeling that there was something wrong with us. it was incredible to talk about it all 35 years later.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 11:20 AM

Ake, I took your emphasis from Gay and put it on to Parents. In other words, these paedophiles (not at all necessarily homosexual) failed in their role as a parent, not because they were gay.

You are welcome to PM me if you wish.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 01:42 PM

I understand now Ebbie ..Thank you

Actually the inverted commas were not to give emphasis, but because I, like many others feel the use of gay in place of homosexual is ambiguous.

Gay in its old form was a wonderful word describing a wonderful feeling, common to all humanity.
It has now been lost to us, and its meaning twisted into something completely different...Ake

Thanks also to Alan, Don and any others who responded to this difficult subject with reason and depth ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 01:53 PM

When you check it out, it appears that 'gay' has shared usage in its history. And there is nothing other than one's own qualms stopping anyone from using it in any way one wishes even today. For instance, I would not hesitate to use the word in a song, used appropriately such as a bird's trill or a happy party. (Frankly, given the article below, I'm not so sure that gay people would approve of all of its usages)

Old as (Some) Hills


"The word gay has changed meanings many times over the centuries, both as a standard English word and as a slang term, but it has nearly always had a shady side.
"Two of the less offensive definitions in Eric Partridge's Dictionary of Historical Slang are as abbreviations of gay and hearty, rhyming slang for "party" and gay and frisky for "whisky". That's appropriate, because one 19th century meaning of gay was "slightly drunk".
"The Oxford dictionary gives as one of the 17th century meanings of gay: "Addicted to social pleasures and dissipations; often euphemistic: Of immoral life."
Partridge says gaying instrument was used in the 19th century to mean the male member but this meaning goes back further than that. For instance Capt Francis Grose's Dictionary of Buckish Slang, University Wit and Pickpocket Elequence, which had its second edition in 1811, defines gaying instrument as "penis". Grose supposedly died in Dublin in 1791 so that meaning probably goes back to the mid-1700s."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 02:19 PM

"People like you can be counted on to call in allegations of abuse when a homosexual father is standing in the driveway giving his foster son a hug, or a lesbian foster mother is holding her 8 year old daughter's hand"


Now Now Lily, surely someone as PC as you would NEVER stoop to stereotyping........Shame on you!! :0)...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 02:28 PM

I don't know about the foster son- hug but the lesbian mother holding her 8-year-old's hand story is true. It was an incredible story that involved the law and it took the mother a long time and many hurtful hours to clear her name, not to mention the harm done the child.

Fear - of all kinds and in innumerable occasions - makes bedfellows of stupidity and power. On the one hand, we all want children to be safe but on the other we often make unsafe the very child we are trying to protect.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 02:41 PM

"Wesley I'm not obliged to take part in an inquisition conducted by you"

Gosh Ake - I'm sorry you consider a few questions an "inquisition". If the questions are too tough or make you feel uncomfortable I'll back off.

But I still feel the best way to change a system is from within. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution. { That's not a question/inquisition - it's an opinion }

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 02:56 PM

Ake, on that matter, again, experience speaks volumes. If that makes me stereotyping the behavior of a bigot, then so be it.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 03:16 PM

Please accept my apologies Wesley...but as you may have noticed, I've been a bit under siege in this thread.

The vast majority of members seem to be keeping their heads WELL down.

When I was young, homosexuality was still a criminal act, and the treatment of homosexuals was barbaric. Believe it or not, I am quite a libertarian at heart and agree that what consenting adults do in private is entirely up to them.

However I feel we as a society are wrong to put young children into a situation which could be harmful to them....for all of the reasons I have given above.

I hope I am wrong, but I think we may see many more cases of the kind we are discussing. we need much more investigation into homosexuality and its results before placing our children in possible jeopardy
Childrens welfare should come before the hurt feelings of any minority....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 03:19 PM

But Lily, I would have to say that YOU were therefor a bigot?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 03:30 PM

In Fact if I were a moronic arsehole, I would have to accuse you of being bigoted against children, by wishing to see them placed in a dangerous situation......and so the merry-go-round goes on no discussion, no other opinions given credence, just personal abuse and ambivolence...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 03:41 PM

"...but as you may have noticed, I've been a bit under siege in this thread."

I'm not suprised.

Could it be that perhaps you're voicing an unpopular opinion in this place? You MUST know that a lot of folks here are qoing to disagree with your stand. Can you see how a lot of what you have to say would come off sounding bigoted ? And you've sounded rather dimissive of opinions that don't agree with yours.

Everyone agrees that the childs intersts should come first - but many of the things you've said end up sounding antigay. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to extend the inquisition. But your ideas sound so different from mine that I have trouble understanding them.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 04:16 PM

Yes Wesley I will correct you, I am not anti- homosexual and have no trouble understanding what a weasel sounds like...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 04:23 PM

How do weasels enter into this conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 04:32 PM

Must be that time of year.
When weasels, having tired of mesmerising rabbits, turn their attentions to innocent Mudcatters...:0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 04:56 PM

I'm sorry but I've missed your train of thought. Who are the weasels and who are the rabbits? And who are the innocent Mudcatters?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST,Straight
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 05:26 PM

By definition, two men who commit sexual acts upom each other are deviants and therefor not suitable to foster young boys, young girls maybe, as I would guesse girls are ouside of their remit.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 05:36 PM

I fully agree with you, Ake, when you say: "However I feel we as a society are wrong to put young children into a situation which could be harmful to them....for all of the reasons I have given above.

"...Childrens welfare should come before the hurt feelings of any minority....Ake "

My mother and I 'took' foster children for years, more than 30 of them, all told, some of them arriving in the middle of the night. It's probably a good thing that I was not aware that some foster homes are not loving ones. We were not trying consciously to be 'loving', what we *were* trying to do was help the child feel wanted and accepted and safe. Foster care is a necessity in this world but it is full of the potential for harm. But so is any home.. Children arrive every day into heterosexual homes and some of those homes and parents should not be trusted with even a puppy.

We have no laws affecting the heterosexual home's suitability until the unsuitability is shown clearly. And that is how it should be.

Placing a foster child in the home of homosexuals is done only after the home and the prospective parents are examined, interrogated and okayed under much stricter guidelines than the three-day-old baby that goes home from the hospital with its heterosexual parent(s) enjoys.

The point is if crimes are committed against children then is when the law should step in.

It seems to me that you are ruling on the basis of the visible- if the foster parent(s) were black - or 'other' colored - or disabled in some way or in some other way 'visually unsuitable', it appears that you'd like to be able to decide on that basis as to the couple's suitability, because that's what would make you feel safer. So when you hear that the prospective foster parent is homosexual it helps you decide on that basis that it is not a suitable environment.

But life isn't like that. A blind or lame person may be a loving, wise parent, a black person may be a perfect match for a foster child - of any color - and a homosexual couple may prize a child as a dream they could not ever have any other way.

I have some friends who would love to adopt an older child, but they know that they would have to jump through all kinds of hoops and have their lives turned inside out for examination (How many heterosexuals are stainfree? It's just that heterosexuals' stains fit more closely the rules of the mainly heterosexual person behind the desk) and they decided that it was not worth it. They would have been wonderful parents.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 06:22 PM

Thanks for that post Ebbie. Your mother and yourself are obviously kind and loving people, embodying the best female gifts, the ability to give love and nurture children.

In a way your post reinforces my point in that a male couple could never bring to any child the nurturing qualities of a female.
It is clear that you feel very strongly about this issue as you write with such emotion and the last thing I want to do is upset a genuinly good person

I dont want to repeat myself, but I dont think your comparisons are quite right. I have no reason to believe that Black people lame people or blind people would not make fine parents, although the extent of their disability would obviously have to be taken into account if they were to be foster parents.

There are of course some groups who would not in my opinion be suitable foster parents. Those groups would include people addicted to drugs or those suffering from psychiatric disorders...so not everyone should be given custody of a child just because their lives feel incomplete without one.

I was very touched by your post Ebbie and I hope you understand my real concerns over this issue,although you may not agree with them....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 08:32 PM

Ebbie,

   This guy just doen't get it. I appreciate your post. :)

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 10:33 PM

Like a wolf & other predators they can smell out their prey. A pedophile or child predator will seek or smell out its victim. Like a bully searches for some one to victimize & over the years hones it's tracking abilities & techniques a pedophile does the same. A pedophile first places themselves in a position the gives them the greatest access to their type of pray. Hence the high number of pedophiles enrolled in the churches, boy scouts, etc. they also know they will be trusted, respected & won't be questioned. Foster care, what a heavenly position for a pedophile, almost a cushy as a priest's. They know the case workers are overloaded, that the agency is in dire straights, that they'll be seen as heroes making great sacrifices & once screened they're trusted & respected, maybe not as much as priests but still they won't be suspect unless someone make a very serious complaint (which a picture of some one pissing is certainly not or will be convinced that it's not). Blame it on the agency, the times, the money, the government, even blame it on George W Bush, but don't blame it on homosexuals, heterosexuals, lesbians, trans-sexuals, bi-sexuals, cross-dressers, asexuals, roofers, steeple-jacks or tin-knockers ( yes Ake, I too work in all weather conditions for 35+ years, in the high altitudes & with the same low attitudes. BLAME it on PAEDOPHILES they are the ones that are child predators not the others, though a pedophile can & do belong too any of these groups of humans, but none are more likely to be found in one than in another. Just like a murderer can be found to belong to any of these groups of people but you would not bare any of these groups from working with, say children, just because a heterosexual or a cross-dresser murdered a kid. If this logic doesn't seem sound then YOU ARE PREJUDCICE & you should be checking out your own shit.
A pedophile like any other type of predator starts learning it's preferred MO, it's victim & it's "means & method" from a young age. (Who knows why?). They learn what actions they take to complete their objective works & what doesn't work. They learn the boundaries of what they can & can't get away with, what & who make up the easier type victims. How to set up & manipulate their pry. How to take advantage of their victims & those close to their victims. How to work the system in their favor & how they themselves should behave in all situations. They are continuously researching their style & they've been refining it since their start, which may be from childhood. They have worked at this for years, starting slow & small & graduating all the time, bit by bit.
So is it any wonder that they know how to take advantage of a young naive social worker, after all the turnover & low pay would not keep the more experienced hanging on. It's not surprising that they know full well how to get around the system, & it's shocking when they've been found out to be something that they're not what everyone thought them to be.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: John P
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 08:03 AM

Akenaton,
You dismissed my last post in this thread by saying:

"Peekstock...you are a devious person who cares more about imagined wrongs to self-made minority, than the very real danger posed to vulnerable children.
"Your sexual perversion is demonstrated by your public interest in what other people are doing in bed."

I have no interest whatsoever in what you or your friends do in bed, but I have very great concern as to what they do to our children."

I notice that you don't actually respond to any of the points I made. You just attack me as a person, call me devious (huh?), spell my name wrong, and apparently assume I'm gay. Well, I know it's pointless to debate with someone whose debating style consists of ignoring arguments and attacking people, but I can't help making one more try. If nothing else, it will be an opportunity to prove once again that you're not interested in logic or in facts. So far your posts are heavy in emotional content and not much else.

Here are some specific questions:

1) In what way is any discussion of homosexuality not a discussion of what other people are doing in bed?

2) In what way is this any of your business?

3) What clear evidence do you have that homosexuals are more likely than any other group to be pedophiles?

4) How does what other people do in bed have any effect on your life?

5) Given that you are eager to have conversations about what other people are doing in bed, why should we not view you as some sort of bizarre voyeur?

6) Fair is fair . . . can we talk about what you do in bed?

7) You seem to be describing the gay rights movement as "imagined wrongs to self-made minority". Do you really beleive that gay folks passed all the anti-gay laws on the books? Who made the minority? Before we had civil rights laws that helped remove the institutional subjugation of black people, were they a "self-made minority", or were they a group being held down by laws made by people who despised them for what they were?

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 08:32 AM

If I'd been brought by two gay men instead of my parents I would be one confused puppy, but my dress collection would show better taste!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 08:46 AM

Akenaton wrote "I have no reason to believe that Black people lame people or blind people would not make fine parents, although the extent of their disability would obviously have to be taken into account if they were to be foster parents."

Since when has being black been a disability?

As for the rest of it, you are simply parading your ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 08:55 AM

Ever wonder why we concentrate so much on rehabilitation rather than methods of prevention?

We need more Social Service workers - probably - but why not attempt to become proactive rather than reactive?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 08:59 AM

"but why not attempt to become proactive rather than reactive?"

How would you decide who to be "proactive" against? Are you suggesting we punish innocent people?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: John P
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 09:07 AM

Does anyone remember when they were twelve or thirteen, or whenever it was that you discovered the opposite sex? Do you really believe there is any power on earth that would have caused you to have a different sexual orientation? What makes you think it's any different for gay folks?

flamenco ted, everyone is on a continuum somewhere between very gay and very straight. Having gay parents isn't going to change or confuse your sexual orientation. It might, however, improve your fund of knowledge, like being able to tell the difference between homosexuals and cross-dressers. And knowing when "jokes" are thinly veiled bigotry. Would you have made your last post - with substituted stereotypes - in a discussion about black people?

Here's another radical concept: Lots of gay folks have terrible taste in clothes, and lots of straight folks always look great. Go figure.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 09:13 AM

Freda, how about education early on? I know that is a broad brush term but it would appear to be a better approach than attempting rehab after certain behavioral patterns have been established.
(and innocents suffering)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 09:22 AM

I wonder how you PC brigade would react if two heterosexual men who lived together fostered teenage girls?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 09:33 AM

Guest, the thought that people can be educated to have a different sexuality is based on the false idea that everything is learned, that there is no genetic inclination. Maybe you didnt mean that.

People who work in the areas of child protection like Lilyfestre and Ebbie, who has fostered, would have a better idea of social preventative measures. Like all social programs they require funding - government commitment. This is not popular in governments (like mine) that are not committed to funding many social programs. In countries like Sweden, Denmark etc, they have a greater commitment to looking after their populations, and so have fewer social problems.

In Australia we have had scandals involving pedophilia amongst closed communities such as churches. Our Ombudsman's office has taken on these churches and has imposed mandatory responses where there are allegations of child sexual abuse. The Ombudsman's office has consequently forced accountability and brought about significant change to churches and has made them a safer place for children of church goers. Where child abuse continues can be in organisations or communities that have their own internal power structures and standards. Groups like these can create & perpetuate their own cultures. Members of such communities need support so that they are aware that their rights are the same as all members of the country that they live in, and they need access to information they need to ensure that their human rights and legal entitlements are protected.

All children and young people need access to information about how to report sexual abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Scoville
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 10:22 AM

I'm hoping that GUEST meant "proactive" in connection to increasing social service workers (and vastly improving their working conditions--I have a friend who is on mental health leave after being forced into working 7 days a week with Katrina evacuees) so that they have the time to actually investigate their cases, catch early-warning signs, and preventing future abuse, applicable to ALL households.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 11:06 AM

" wonder how you PC brigade would react if two heterosexual men who lived together fostered teenage girls? " Flamenco Ted

There's many a man out there who is rearing his children- including girls- alone. As far as another man sharing the household goes, there's nothing much fiercer than what the normal parent feels when it comes to protecting their young.

A brother of mine once said in wonderment, 'Men have awful thoughts.' So do women. That is where the civilisation of the normal person- including compassion, insight and foresight and just plain love - kicks in. Acting on thoughts is something totally different.

(I say that even though I know that an act begins with the thought; that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the random flittings through the mind.)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 11:14 AM

Off the main topic of this thread, but related:

"a male couple could never bring to any child the nurturing qualities of a female"


to which my response is BoLLOCKS! There are any number of hetero couples in which the primary caregiver and nurturer is the male.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: John P
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 11:16 AM

flamenco ted,
Anti-PC is the new PC. Didn't you get the memo?

How 'bout a real answer? Earlier I said, I am not particularly politically correct, unless political correctness means treating people with respect, and treating them as individuals instead of as a member of some group.

Your response? Please provide specific information about how asking for civil rights for a group of people who do not have the same societal legal benefits as you do should be dismissed as "policital correctness". Please also provide a definition for PC, with examples from my posts showing how I fit that definition. Please be prepared to defend your definition of PC with facts and logic, and be willing to change your definition if it doesn't stand up to examination.

Please do this, or admit that you aren't really interested in the discussion we're having, but only want to throw in snide comments from time to time. If that's the case, please shut up and go away. I'm not interested in your crap.

JP

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 11:23 AM

Answer my question then.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 11:29 AM

Scoville, "proactive in this case means doing more in Society to educate our citizens - the end result (in a perfect world) would mean no requirement for Social Workers except for those with major disabilities whether mental or physical.

I know some will say "pie in the sky" but why not eliminate a problem as opposed to continual treatment while watching it grow?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 12:09 PM

Economic rationalism refers to a mindset that the market should provide the foundation for all economic, political and social decisions. It has resulted in a "downsizing" of government's role in the provision of human services, the expansion of the private sector, the positioning of individuals as consumers and services as commodities and the valuing of profits and private interests over social benefits.

In order to achieve pre-emptive solutions to social problems, there has to be a change of government in those countries whose governments are pouring their money into war and other businesses.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 12:29 PM

Study: Older Brothers Increase Chances Men Will Be Gay
Monday, June 26, 2006; FoxNews.com
        
WASHINGTON — Having several older brothers increases the likelihood of a man being gay, a finding researchers say adds weight to the idea that there is a biological basis for sexual orientation. "It's likely to be a prenatal effect," said Anthony F. Bogaert of Brock University in St. Catharines, Canada. "This and other studies suggest that there is probably a biological basis for" homosexuality. S. Marc Breedlove of Michigan State University said the finding "absolutely" confirms a physical basis.

"Anybody's first guess would have been that the older brothers were having an effect socially, but this data doesn't support that," Breedlove said in a telephone interview. The only link between the brothers is the mother and so the effect has to be through the mother, especially since stepbrothers didn't have the effect, said Breedlove, who was not part of the research. Bogaert studied four groups of Canadian men, a total of 944 people, analyzing the number of brothers and sisters each had, whether or not they lived with those siblings and whether the siblings were related by blood or adopted. He reports in a paper appearing in Tuesday's issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that having several biological older brothers increased the chance of a man being gay. It's an effect that can be detected with one older brother and becomes stronger with three or four or more, Bogaert said in a telephone interview.

But, he added, this needs to be looked at in context of the overall rate of homosexuality in men, which he suggested is about 3 percent.
With several older brothers the rate may increase from 3 percent to 5 percent, he said, but that still means 95 percent of men with several older brothers are heterosexual. The effect of birth order on male homosexuality has been reported previously but Bogaert's work is the first designed to rule out social or environmental effects.

Bogaert said he concluded the effect was biological by comparing men with biological brothers to those with brothers to whom they were not biologically related. The increase in the likelihood of being gay was seen only in those whose brothers had the same mothers, whether they were raised together or not, he said. Men raised with several older step- or adopted brothers do not have an increased chance of being gay. "So what that means is that the environment a person is raised in really makes not much difference," he said. What makes a difference, he said, is having older brothers who shared the same womb and gestational experience, suggesting the difference is because of "some sort of prenatal factor."

One possibility, he suggests, is a maternal immune response to succeeding male fetuses. The mother may react to a male fetus as foreign but not to a female fetus because the mother is also female.
It might be like the maternal immune response that can occur when a mother has Rh-negative blood but her fetus has Rh-positive blood. Without treatment, the mother can develop antibodies that may attack the fetus during future pregnancies. Whether that's what is happening remains to be seen, but it is a provocative hypothesis, said a commentary by Breedlove, David A. Puts and Cynthia L. Jordan, all of Michigan State.

The research was funded by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 12:46 PM

Thanks for that, freda. I read that article online a few minutes ago. Someday, those people who are convinced that homosexuality is a choice will be joining the ranks of those people who blamed demonic possession for epilepsy, sin for hurricanes, solar eclipses as warnings and vehemently maintained that the earth is flat.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 01:05 PM

Interesting analogies, Ebbie. Like gays, people with epilepsy have been persecuted, - their condition has been demonised, mysticised, and mythologised. Its worth noting that epileptics were another group targeted by the Nazis. Although June 30, 1934, marks the beginning of the Nazi slaughter of gays, active persecution had begun a year earlier, in 1933, when Hitler had become supreme legal authority of the Third Reich. In that year a law was passed requiring the sterilization of all homosexuals, schizophrenics, epileptics, drug addicts, hysterics, and those born blind or malformed. By 1935, 56,000 people were thus "treated." In actual practice, the homosexuals were literally castrated rather than sterilized. More info here

It's strange that in their pursuit of physical perfection, racial purists themselves became psychotic by acting on a twisted and paranoid set of beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 01:16 PM

This whole thread troubles me. I think most of us are aware that the majority of pedophiles are heterosexual males, yet no one seems to object to heterosexual couples adopting. Hmmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 01:34 PM

Exactly, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 05:31 PM

Well well, I see the lyvch mob has been working itself up into a right little frenzy while I've been out at work.
Some of the comments have been so ridiculous that they dont deserve a response, especially Peekstock who is total obsessed by homosexual sex.
Or is his post just a sly attempt to muddy the waters so that any real attempt to debate this issue is drowned out by the usual cries of bigot homophobe ect

Interesting how so many Mudcatters have been unwilling to give their opinions here. Well done you ragbag of Social workers and apologists for child molesters, the lynch mob mentality must be having the desired effect

I dont believe that there is anyone in their right mind (that lets out quite a number of the above) who want to see young children handed over to male homosexual couples, but the powerful homosexual lobby has been so successful in seducing the public that political correctness now rules common sense.
Like the majority here on mudcat, people are becomming afraid to raise objection to anything which offends them and their lives are set by the most powerful pressure groups

As I've said before, I hope I am wrong, but I think before too long most of you will have cause to eat your words.

As an example, one of the most ridiculous statements
"This whole thread troubles me. I think most of us are aware that the majority of pedophiles are heterosexual males, yet no one seems to object to heterosexual couples adopting. Hmmmm?"

I'll leave the "intellectually challenged" to work it out for yourselves....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 05:59 PM

Ake - I can only deduce that you don't really want to discuss the issue. That you only want folks to agree with you. If so - why start the thread in the first place ?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: frogprince
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 06:08 PM

Or could it be, Akenaton, that quite a few of us have already found our opinions well expressed by other members, and haven't bothered to line up to be told that we are "out of our minds".

"the majority of pedophiles are heterosexual males"

Do you, in fact, believe that pedophilia is discernibly more common among homosexual males? If so, can you support that belief?