Discount CDs at gigs

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,LesB (on Laptop)
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:15 AM

well 'self, unless i'm labouring under a missconception, if the artist sells to me at £12 i've always assumed that they would be getting more than if i bought it from a retail outlet for ay £13-50p. I'm not trying to do the artist out of money. It's just like most folks i'm looking for a bargin.
I also would like to say that the prospect of getting a c.d. at a slight discount would be an inducement to making a spur of the moment purchase, in fact almost every time i've been to a gig £ seen c.d.'s for sale at full price i've usually thought to myself, " there's no rush to by it now i'm not saving anything", and then found that subsequently i've never got round to buying the c.d. anyway. Either my enthusiasm has cooled or I never see it for sale again.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:22 AM

Hey Skivee you must be in the 'Big League' £8.000 worth at todays xchange rate [approx] 18US$ = £12 - it used to be £9 not too long ago

Can you kindly tell us minnows how many did you have done, and how are the sales going so far ?

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Anne Lister
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:31 AM

I'm still puzzled about why performers (self employed, generally not earning lots of money by anyone's standards and in some cases - like my own - not even earning enough to pay tax) should be giving a discount to audiences, many of whom will have "proper" jobs and who will almost certainly be spending more money on drinks than they've paid to get into the gig.

Anne
(ducking behind the computer)

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: peregrina
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 06:14 AM

At gigs at a great local small venue I often wonder how the performers even cover the cost of new strings, broken strings and petrol.

Are people sometimes playing at a loss? (I hope not.)

If I like the music enough to want the CD, I'd be embarrassed not to pay the asking price or buy direct from the artist's site instead of Amazon.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 07:59 AM

my cds, have 65 minutes plus time,and have been recorded by professional engineers,for which I have had to pay professional recording rates.
I have four cds available at the moment two of which are shrink wrapped,2 are not,they are all professionally produced,and well designed,three of them have been designed by Cathy Cook,who has a degree in graphics and illustration.
just for the record[excuse the pun],I have on occasions arrived at gigs with no money, even for a drink,that is how renumerative being a professional folksinger is,I have struggled on for years,because I love the music,and feel to be able to do it properly,I need the time to practise it properly,which I feel I would not have time for ,with a full time job[Even if at the age of 57 I could get one] .
latterly, I have had to teach music ,to maintain myself ,at about the same rate as UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT.
cds, are for me a useful way of supplementing an incomethat is about the minimium wage,of course If I was a solicitor or an accountant and was semi pro,I could afford to give my cds away.
http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: treewind
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:04 AM

"if the artist sells to me at £12 i've always assumed that they would be getting more than if i bought it from a retail outlet for £13-50p"

Yes, but think of the numbers sold. In the folk world, nearly all the sales are at live gigs and the numbers sold though retail outlets are insignificant. The retail outlets are the places where the attitude "I don't care about the money, I just want my music to be heard" really applies. Through Wild Goose we get (eventually...) about 50p for anything sold by other retailers. The direct sales are the main channel, and the one we have to rely on to cover costs, let alone make any profit.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:18 AM

Hey Dick, surely 65 minutes is a little on the lengty side, I used to reckon 60 mins max once,, but nowadays 40 - 45 seems adequate, 12 songs max., maybe 13.

Pete Coe, Jez Lowe, Steve Tilston , even fewer by Stan Rogers. Pete Morton,

9 on penquin eggs - Nic Jones for the uninitiated

To quote Steve T, when I requested more songs from him at a live gig at our club 'You can have a surfeit'

The 'sympathy' card is no excuse

I agree its very difficult to get a job at 52 yet alone 57, but I landed one for 2 years at 61! then got sacked, but didnt worry , just returned to the music !!

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:50 AM

Vin charged £10 a CD last night at Faldingworth

Pete Coe at Faldingworth on valaentines night Feb 14th 2009

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:17 AM

Breezy ,I like to give value for money,so my cds[nautical and :concertinas and] are 65 mins long.
I dont know what your twaddle about sympathy is about,I am just giving you the facts.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: LesB
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:13 AM

Anahata, are you therefore saying that you don't give any discount at gigs? If not, then do you not think that a little incentive to buy might just tip the balance when someone is undecided? I don't necessarily mean this on a personal level, just in general.
Cheers
Les (The pround owner of a couple of your's & Mary's C.D.s ) :-)

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Skivee
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:14 AM

Breezey, sorry for the delay. I was sleeping in after a late night gigue.
The sales are great...for a regional folk band.
We are nearly the second pressing of 1,000 1 1/4 years after the debut. Reviews were great, fan response to the quality of production has been very gratifying.
We are pleased that our patrons can hear the difference that improved production provides.
A large part of the improved sound can be layed at the feet of the recording studio's excellent production staff.
That being said, we are hardly big minnows. We are just a regionally known shanty group with a gimmick that we and our fans enjoy.
Folks like Beonce, P Diddy, Justin Timberlake, the American/British Idol winner of the month, or the pre-superfreak Michael Jackson have had more money spent on their green room catering than we have amassed from our CD sales in 15 years of selling our 5 albums.
Our total number of units in hands of customers is about 17,000. This modest production level isn't too shabby by our folkie standards, but would be a career ending disaster for any of the big minnows mentioned above.
My point is that a few bucks nibbled off the cost of a CD might well be satisfying in a "gee, I really bargained that sucker down at that yardsale, heehee" mentality for the purchaser; but it adds up to real loss to the performer.
We put a value on the hard work we put into our CDs, and our customers do as well. We also value our fan-base. Without them, we would just be a bunch of drunk folks singing in the woods while wearing funny clothes.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Skivee
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:16 AM

Sorry:
"We are nearly through the second pressing of 1,000"...etc.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:23 AM

Breezy,let me repeat,what artists decide to sell their cds for is their own prerogative,likewise the amount of playing time,they decide to record.
the 4 cds available on my website,contain 21 tracks, 19 tracks 17 tracks,and 28 tracks,respectively,I reckon thats value for money.
whether I decide to discount for bulk buying is also my prerogative,I sometimes do.,but that is my decision.
http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: treewind
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:39 AM

"Anahata, are you therefore saying that you don't give any discount at gigs"
Actually, we do. See my first posting in the thread. In particular,
- £12 vs. WG "RRP" of £13
- £10 per CD if you buy more than 1
- £10 for "Sharp Practice" since we paid for a re-pressing and the cost (to us) per CD is much lower.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:27 PM

Ahoy Capn

The sympathy jibe/taunt/winde up was prompted by you mentioning age and [lack of] employment openings, which we have in common.

Please, no offence intended though it could be taken

65 mins is still a long time.

Thank you for your contribution to this and numerous other threads.

must come and catch you in the act sometime, are you ever near Watford herts?

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM

hello capn, - in his sea boots

hey , great trailing leg action , but how did you manage to remove the hurdle from the picture, and to be that supple at your age is to be comm mate.ended, good on ya

to me the S W of over there is Limerick, so have you met Terry Wogan yet?

how have the natives taken to you? cos theres alot of em over here from over there to be sure.

purile jokes, been up all day

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Skivee
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM

Wow, Breezy. I've never, ever heard anyone complain about getting an album that is too long. I could see thinking that movies, plays, hyperconservative reactionary overly capitalistic administrations might be going on too long; but it's easy enough to stop a CD and go back to it later, right?
Penquin Eggs, as wonderful as it was, always struck me as being short. On the other hand, the original version was an LP. The maximum length for LPs was around 40 minutes.
The increased capacity of CD prompted us to do at least 15 cuts per album. The latest album, BlackJack, has 21. This may be viewed as making 6 extra cuts to our fans than the 'standard" for just $3 more than our earlier albums.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:36 AM

If there is a case of 'over=feeding' and 'folk obesity' then I've just found it!

its quality rather than quantity in my H O

so the 'discount' is in the form of extra tracks?

What about splitting 20 into 2 CDs,- best if you had 24 tracks - it would reduce some costs and generate more income and a possible 'Double Album'

just something to dwell on

Big swell coming in across the Atlantic, 7 metre waves from europe to North Africa, so it may sod up the surfing for my son in Morocco

Rugby this afternoon.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: treewind
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:41 AM

Doug Bailey at WildGoose aims for 55 minutes.
An album can be too long - if you can't listen to it all at one sitting it's too long, and usually an hour is starting to be too much, however good the music.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Skivee
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 11:47 AM

Isn't that a bit like saying that a magazine is too big if you can't read the whole thing in one sitting; or telling your bank that you are getting too much interst on your accounts?
It's not like you are forced to listen in one fell swoop.
My recordings have varied from 35 minutes to 69 minutes. Most come in at just under 1 hour.
I look at including more tracks as giving the patron a good value for their money rather than encumbering them with too much music.
Can there BE too much music???
The concept makes my brain squishy. I thought the whole point to performing and recording was to present music to our fans.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM

Interesting concept Ahahata, and not one I'd given any thought to. The problem for me is that I always have more material than I can fit onto a CD, because if it's in my set then I really want it on record, in case people want to take that particular song home - so saving it till next year doesn't occur to me. Also I try to structure my CDs like a set, with a good flow from quicker to slower, sadder to happier etc, plus there's keys and topics and themes to consider, (and cardiac space after a 'heartstopper).' I'd find it much easier to make Cds if they could be 2 hours long.

Maybe this is where I've been going wrong! (I wonder if anyone's actually listened to any of the last tracks on my CDs )

T

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:18 PM

Hi Tom, cant say I have

O K I really only listened to the three I mentioned earlier

Because I dont play these CDs as 'background' music as a rule.

You would surely be doing yourself a disservice to put'em all on one

I record for posterity! for the family, for my kids for when I'm gone, I want to haunt em, like I do to some folk already! etc

If you put it 'all down' at once then its a hell of a gap to the next one and the idea is to generate repeat orders is it not, like repeat gigs, so far over a 20 year period, I've put down nearly 22 volumes, consisting of 250 songs , it saves on paper too. it reflects the direction I've travelled.

They are not for sale,I do not plug 'my' Cds at gigs, though it infuriates me when somebody else does and I'm the main attraction, - cheek, sod off, get yer own gig, show respek, - I like to give the audience a break but the practice of planning ,recording etc has been similar I'm sure. My last one contains 11 songs. I hope they would pass the T Bliss standard of 'contrast' as he has made a valid point.
listening to 20 shanties is for the 'Die hards', and Ive got those cds in my collection, deep down underneath the pile at the bottom of the drawer/locker

We won the rugby, me 12 year old scored, beat Watford Grammar 24pts - O

Its the old adage
'Leave em wanting more'

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:44 PM

God Speed Snow Goose

Very prissy [joke]

Lovely song, great feel.

whats it about?

Oh yes a Goose

we got lots of them in Verulam Park, you have to mind where you walk, especially at night in the rain, going to the November firework display, and if you slip over, well its not worth thinking about.

farewell

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:05 AM

In Trier at Christmas, the buskers were charging Eu15. That seemed to me a bit too much, especially as the pound was so low, and I didn't buy. I might have paid eu10, but if that is below the production cost, then I suppose there is no incentive to sell.

Mrs Pavane's CDs sell for £5 but they are on home-burned CDR. I do print a nice insert too, but we still make a profit (I hope).

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:27 AM

Just think Tom, if you only did 45 minutes for a CD.
You coukld have a First Half CD £10 and a Second Half CD £10.
When the audience come to buy, you can ask them which half they liked the most and sell them that CD. If they liked both, you can sell the 2 at lets say £18. Sounds good business.
I would rather have a cd with 8/9 very good songs on, than 18/20 where half of them are just filler songs.

As for listening, and as my family are not too enamoured with Folk, I listen to mine in the car, so It doesn't really matter how long the Cd is. However, if its one of those 18/20 ones with half filler songs, then it can get a bit annoying pressing the button to go to the next song.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 09:21 AM

I would rather have a cd with 8/9 very good songs on, than 18/20 where half of them are just filler songs.[quote]
who says that cds, are filled half full with filler songs.
my cds are not,I dont expect Toms are either.
[You coukld have a First Half CD £10 and a Second Half CD £10.]quote]
Villan ,I have never heard anything so hilarious.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 09:23 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: caitlin rua
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 10:01 AM

Breezy at 4:36 am:
>What about splitting 20 into 2 CDs,- best if you had 24 tracks - it would reduce some costs and generate more income.

I'm still trying to work out how making two CDs reduces ANY costs. The expenses are the expenses, whether they're studio-produced or home made, last 45 minutes or 70 minutes. Anyway, what's the problem with having a long CD? Ever hear of the track-selector button? I bet the person who made the album didn't think any of the tracks were fillers. Most artists have to think what to leave out.

And "generate more income" how, exactly?

It's a wind-up, right?

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:01 AM

Yes Caitlin :-)

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: caitlin rua
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:54 AM

I didn't mean you, Villan. Got that one -

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:28 PM

Hmmm... I think I might agree with Breezy and Anahata on this one. Being brought up on albums with two sides that last between 40 - 45 mins between them, I think I am quite thoroughly conditioned into listening to music in chunks that size. After 45 minutes I am ready to put something else on. That means I rarely listen to longer albums in a single sitting unless they are just on as background. It would suit me if people who did 70 minute albums sequenced tracks as two distinct "suites" that could be listened to as two shorter albumettes. I'd be interested to hear how much thought artists put into the order in which they sequence tracks and whether they see albums as discrete, coherent wholes or just a collection of songs. I rather like the idea that you sweat and fret over track listings...

By the by, I'm also puzzled by the concept of 'bonus tracks'. It's on the album or it isn't! If it is, it ought to work with the rest of the tracks rather than stick out like a blind cobbler's thumb.

A friend who is a physics-of-sound boffin reckons there is some science behind the idea that we lose interest in an album after 50 -60 minutes or so. Anyone know anything about this? I'll aks him next time I see him and report back...

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: treewind
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:21 PM

"I rather like the idea that you sweat and fret over track listings..."
It's part of the mastering process.
We've just done one, and we had 17 tracks totalling nearly 70 minutes.
We got sent those on a CD, the result of the first mixing.
We decided which tracks to drop (4 of them), and then juggled the remaining tracks into a sensible order. You have to choose especially carefully the fisrt and last tracks, then fill in the rest keeping a reasonable flow of variety so you don't have too many similar tracks next to each other. Also made notes on sound on a handful of tracks where we though it could be improved.

I then made a fresh CD of the chosen tracks in chosen order, and tried to listen to it all in one go without phone calls and other interruptions. We sent the comments and track list back to WildGoose, and Doug is happy with the choice. If he wasn't he'd have suggested alternatives...

So certainly some effort is made.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:24 PM

"It's part of the mastering process."

Not for me, it's much more fundamental. I effectively 'compose' my albums - writing and arranging to order, in order. The schedule's decided before I record a note, but it's not set in stone, because sometimes a track goes off on a direction I hadn't planned (it happens during recording sometimes), and then I have to change the sequence and/or the arrangement of the tracks either side. I sweat blood over the sequence - as I do over my set lists and stage intros. Not that I don't change my mind on stage too sometimes - but I do believe that sequencing a gig or CD is a craft worthy of as much attention as singing and playing. Tom

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:12 PM

Given the current value of the pound v the euro, we have just dropped our CD prices from 15 to 10 euros when playing in a euro country. And I may say we shifted a fair few at the weekend in Sixmilebridge, Co Clare.
(I expect there's a way of making a euro sign, but I dont know how...anybody know?)

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: treewind
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:16 PM

Try this €
Done by the sequence: €

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:23 PM

On a MacBook (the white ones anyway) it's Alt then numeral 2: €

Dunno about Mac desktops -

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: treewind
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

Yes but if your press alt-whatever it generates a character that may not be a euro on everybody's computer, whereas if you spell it out € in the HTML code it's guaranteed to display as a euro symbol on any computer (if the computer has a € in any of its fonts)

Same with £ which sometimes displays and sometimes doesn't if you use the £ symbol on your keyboard.
Again spelling it £ (as I did above) always works.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM

Just for the record (no pun intended)

Susan and I present house concerts at which Performers can sell their CDs. In the same house, I have a business selling CDs. When there's a house concert, I will not sell that performer's CD, as a courtesy to the performer.

Generally, my prices (not at house concerts) are lower than those that the performer charges directly.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:08 PM

Alt GR on right hand side of space bar and then 4.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:20 PM

From treewind up there earlier today

''You have to choose especially carefully the fisrt and last tracks, then fill in the rest''

'first' 100 rimes please and on my dusk in the mooring

There you go , fillers, in this case 11 of the buggers.

caitlin rua; Of course its not a wind up, how dare you suggest so, say sorry.

Andy cutting , only 10

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:25 PM

and can we return to the main point of our discussion and not about £ $ and Euro please.

that would have been a good buy then at 10 sodding Es

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:41 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=27ZiixkruCY&feature=relatedhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=27ZiixkruCY&feature=related

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:45 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=27ZiixkruCY&feature=related

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:46 AM

ignore 10:45

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Cuan Korsten
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM

Hey everybody, greetings from South Africa.

On the subject of price I would just like to offer my 10 cents (or pence) worth. I'm not sure if it will apply to other countries but in my country I've found that the general public are price sensitive. I arrived at this conclusion by experimenting with the price of my cd at gigs. I started out selling at R100 (cd stores here sell at roughly R150) and would sell on average 2 cds per gig. I then halved my price (R50) and called it a gig special thinking that I'd sell more but only succeeded in averaging about 3 per gig. I incorporated various incentives (free t-shirts etc) but that didn't have the desired affect. Finally I pushed my price up to R70 per cd and suddenly I began to average 6 - 10 per gig.

So, make of that what you may, but I've found that price can make a difference. Perception of value perhaps.

Btw, CDBaby has just reported on their sales figures for '08 and CDs are still a viable option for independent artists:

***Excerpt from update***
1,013,478 CDs sold in 2008, compared to 993,175 discs in 2007, a modest 2% increase (but quite a victory in light of 14% sales declines for the industry at large, IMO).

39,100 new album titles added in 2008, up 7% from the prior year, and proof that CDs continue to be a viable sales driver for independent artists
***

Goodluck to all of you,
Cuan

My blog

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 01:26 PM

since when are people from R S A sensitive ! [ joke]

pop corn, chewing gum, peanuts ,bubblegum, ice cream, candy floss and eskimo pie, ag deddy how we miss


perhaps your singing just improved C K

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 10:55 AM

"If i pay £10 admission , or even £8 should not the artiste ask a more inviting price for their CDs e.g £5 as they will already be getting a fee?"

No

Your £10 or even £8 goes to the organiser not the musicians.
Turn it round - If I buy a CD at £10 from the band, shouldn't the organiser give me a discount on my entry fee? - Let me know when you are going to try it, I'd like to be there

WYSIWYG - are you saying that you pirate cd's and justify it by suggesting you are helping the musicians? Might be better to take your friends along to the gig.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:11 PM

I am certain the sale of CDs is not just an issue of cost. I think most CD buyers already have too many CDs.

I play concerts and sell CDs at full price typically ($15), but offer a discount to encourage purchase of multiples ... and that seems to work. I play festivals and often offer the same deal.

When I play pubs - I usually sell CDs at full price. The audience at pubs is less likely to buy many CDs. BUT at pubs people fill the tip jar. It strikes me that every night at pubs, someone or two or three people will throw a $20 in the tip jar. If they'd have taken a CD, I'd have had to give them change!! To me that says, they really appreciate the music, they want to express their appreciation (and it is almost alway anonomous) BUT they don't care to bring home a CD!

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:12 PM

ooops!

I mean anonymous!

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:31 PM

I like the American system of giving tips,so if people have enjoyed the night,and ther wish they can give extra money.
this frequently happens tome when I play in Irish pubs,it would be great if it happened in English folk clubs.