Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 05:35 PM

The lyrics to 'Summertime' were written by DuBose Heyward and the music by George Gershwin.

Sing whatever you like - just sing it well.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 07:06 PM

As far as I know it only costs £5 to sing the Wild Rover in the Middle Bar (and I did pay the fine once to sing it to a different tune).

Kitty

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Soldier boy
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 08:45 PM

I like to sing popular folk songs with a strong chorus line that the audience/joe public can recognise and join in with with all their hearts.

No song should ever be banned/dismissed/mocked or degraded because of it's popularity and some sense that it has been 'over-sung'.
It shouldn't matter either whether it is sung well or not so well so long as 'the audience' on that occasion gets the gist of it and joins in and enjoys it.
It all depends on the company you are in and the general ambience at the time. It doesn't take long to get a sense of what will go down well and what may not go down well.
So to hell with 'Songs you shouldn't sing' - sing them all I say and have a jolly good time.
Some sessions just get far too stuffy and up their own do da's and in my experience, only work for the self-centered and self-obsessed 'inner circle' and don't work for those listening in and hoping for a song they can join in with.

This reminds me of the time way back in the 1970's when me and my wife to be went to see a Ralph MacTell concert in London and he refused to sing "Streets of London" on the grounds that it was over-sung and he was growing bored of it - guess what? - about a quarter of the audience (including us)were brave enough and incensed enough to walk out in disgust.
How ignorant is that!? Especially when that one song was his pension for life!
Since then I don't believe that there is any song you shouldn't sing in a UK folk club.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: olddude
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 08:51 PM

yankee doodle

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: BobKnight
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 08:54 PM

OK - we go to a jazz club to hear jazz, a country music club to hear country music, a folk club to hear... ??

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Bert
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:30 AM

Re: song attribution and singing in pubs.

Some years ago I posted the words to "Come Inside" and some how it got attributed to me. I emailed another website, who had done the same thing, and they sent me this link Enjoy!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 01:52 AM

Knowing that George Gershwin worked with a number of lyricists, I should have checked into "Summertime", but it does raise the point that everyone know George Gershwin, and everyone knows "Summertime" but how many people would recognise the name DuBose Heyward?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 02:46 AM

Except that DuBose Heyward was the author of the original novel, Porgy, & the play derived from it, which formed the basis of the opera - Libretto by Dubose Heyward, lyrics by DuBose Heyward & Ira Gershwin, music by George Gershwin. I suppose it is just the convention that operas are attributed to their composers [who thinks of DaPonte's Le Nozze Di Figaro from a play by Beaumarchais, eh?].

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:49 AM

A wonderful example of senseless and unintelligent inverse snobbery from glueman above.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:55 AM

"who thinks of DaPonte's Le Nozze Di Figaro from a play by Beaumarchais, eh?"

I do, but then I'm probably the only person to ever sing Mozart in a folk club. (The first aria from Don Giovanni)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Young Buchan
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 04:45 AM

In any given folk club none of the regulars should be moaning about having heard one of your songs there so often. Why? Because if they are hearing it there regularly it is someone else's song, and you should not be singing it. Sorry to sound like the folk police but I strongly believe in this. It was certainly the case in the days of the oral tradition; noone sang someone else's song without that person's permission: allegedly Cyril Poacher was nearly lynched in Blaxhall when he filled up his LP with 'other people's songs'. But it was also the practice of the revival when I began singing around 1970. Now noone seems to care. Twice in recent years I have had the experience of giving someone the words to an unusual song I have sung only to have them sing it in front of me a few weeks later.
Of course, when I go into a club for the first time I don't know what they are used to, but I have a list of 'uncommon' songs that I know are likely to be safe. If I'm intending going back to that club I listen carefully to what is sung, and if any are in my repertoire I scratch them off.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 05:19 AM

Young Buchan - I genuinely don't understand the logic in your last post. What on earth do you mean by the terms "your song" and "someone else's song"? If you're singing a true folk song (anon, traditional) - how can you or anyone else "own" it? There may well be courtesies among the regulars at a particular club that so-and-so is the usual singer of such-and-such a song, but there's certainly no ownership. Your own compositions may well be another matter but - if you sing your composition in public, you can't stop someone else from thinking, "that's a good song, I'd like to do it myself". You should be flattered...

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Marje
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 05:28 AM

I don't think I'd take it as far as you, Young Buchan, but there's certainly something in what you say. If you're a visitor or new arrival to a folk club you can't possibly know which are people's "own" songs, but regulars usually respect the repertoires of others and try to find something different to sing. It's not just being considerate to the other singer, it's considerate to the audience, so they get something different to listen to.

I've had someone ask me for the words of a song I thought I did quite well, and had that person sing it badly (only my opinion, of course, I may be biased!) at the same venue a week or two later, which rather pissed me off. On the other hand, I've supplied the words of a song (and recorded the tune) on request for someone who was going to use a song at another event for a completely different audience, and I had no problem with that.

And I have had a club regular say to me, after I've finished a song, "Haven't you heard me do that one? Didn't you know that's one I do?"
To which the answer was no, but point taken. I won't do it in front of him again.

I do understand that the songs are common property (unless you've written them) but there are so many great songs out there, there's no need for a deliberate overlap of material unless for some special reason.

Marje

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:38 AM

Many years ago at the Volunteer in Sidmouth (a mecca for great trad singing.) A well respected "Old Gent" who was well known as having a wide ranging and varied reportoire, solemnly announced he was going to do an old song, that he didn't sing very often, as it upset him. We all exchanged knowing glances, a few reached for their cassette machines to capture this fare gem, from the lips of a master singer. He stood up, held his pint tightly, closed his eyes. (you could hear a pin drop), and started singing.....
"Two little boys, had two little toys......"
We didn't have the heart to tell him after he'd finished, and dutifully applauded! (and actually, it was really quite emotional!)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:58 AM

LOL, Ralphie! Reminds me of a true story about an instance of the famous "Kop" singing at Liverpool. At a match, some years ago, a mounted policeman's horse reared and threw him. He was OK but shaken and - as he climbed up on the back of a colleagues's horse, the whole Kop spontaneously started to sing, "Did you think I would leave you dying, when there's room on the horse for two...? Wonderful - a true folk moment!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 07:02 AM

Interesting.

I played for a large part of last year in a hotel on a Friday evening with a (very good) female singer and we did most of the old chestnuts that people complain about and people loved them. At a folk club they probably wouldn't have done. We also did a lot of country and top 40 stuff which went down very well and which I was perfectly pleased to do because my colleague sang them so well. She also has a repertoire of traditional songs which any folk club audience would be pleased to hear but like myself, she's not too bothered about going to folk clubs (mind you, unlike me, she missed the 70s).

However, I've been several times to a very well-respected folk club not far from where I live and I've sat through some terrible versions of pop songs by 'residents' - IE the organiser's mates.

I've got another mate who sings 'Summertime' but he's written a new tune for it and turned it into a country number. I'm not, to be honest, knocked out by the result but he's at least attempted to do something original with it.

By the way, I don't see anything wrong with singing 'Two Little Boys'. It's not one of my favourite songs but in terms of provenance it's probably older and arguably more 'Traditional' than a lot of 'respectable' folk club standards by people like Eric Bogle, Richard Thompson and the like.

By the way, I was at this club I mentioned a couple of years ago and some guy turned up who was obviously a mate of the organisers.    They gave him a spot for that reason (I can't think of any other reason) and he said 'What do you want to hear? Sting or Led Zeppelin?' To my eternal regret I neglected to reply, 'Whichever's shorter'.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: melodeonboy
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 07:21 AM

I'm with Will Fly on this one. Songs are available to everyone. I realise that there are copyright restrictions once profit becomes involved, but that doesn't usually apply to people singing in folk clubs.

If anyone comes to our session and sings a song from my repertoire, I'm usually grateful for the chance to hear how someone else does it, even if I had intended to sing that song. I can then sing something else that evening! Simples!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Hesk
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 07:30 AM

Reading about all the conditions that there are in order to join in at a folk session, it is not surprising that there are are so many ex
contributers.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 07:41 AM

"It was certainly the case in the days of the oral tradition; noone sang someone else's song without that person's permission: allegedly Cyril Poacher was nearly lynched in Blaxhall when he filled up his LP with 'other people's songs'."
As Walter Pardon said when he heard of two folkie 'stars' arguing about who should sing one of his songs "They're not mine, they're everybodys".
That is certainly not true; it's pne of the great myths of how the traditian was. If singers claimed songs as their own we wouldn't have a tradition. We have many hours on tape of singers describing in (often great detail) how they both taught their songs to others and learned songs from other singers.
"Two Little Boys", "Mozart", "Summertime", "Mad World", "Chasing Cars".... and being fined £5 for singing 'Wid Rover' - I do hope Bryan Creer is reading this!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: IanC
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 07:50 AM

This thread illustrates perfectly why I don't go to folk clubs much.

Too many bloody song snobs out there.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Young Buchan
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 07:57 AM

In spite of all the censure, I stick to my guns. Yes, I do think that in the context of performance in a community (and if you don't accept that a folk club is a community, and not simply an audience, I'm afraid we're never going to agree) there is a very real sense of ownership of a traditional song; not of course a legally enforceable one, but real none the less.
To start with the extreme case: if Sheila Stewart were in the room I would not sing a song from her repertoire or from Belle's (or at least not in a version that was at all similar). Not because I think Sheila would beat me up. Not because I know for a fact I could never do it justice. But from respect – a word which seems to be disappearing from the English language. I can sing the song for my own satisfaction when I am alone. I can sing the song for the audience's satisfaction (or not) when she is not present. But when she is there they are her property.
So why should I react any differently to singing songs from Joe Bloggs' repertoire when Joe is in the room? Is there one law for the great performers and source singers and another law for the Bloggses?
Of course they are not HIS songs. Of course I have the RIGHT to sing them wherever, whenever and however I want to. But….

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 08:07 AM

I do, but then I'm probably the only person to ever sing Mozart in a folk club.
Nope, I've done Mozart's horn concerto (with words by Flanders & Swann)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 08:18 AM

We sometimes go to a tune/song session (NOT a folk club) at the Shroppie Fly, Audlem. We can only go in the school holidays when the dance club I am involved with doesn't meet, so we don't have a chance to get fed up with any repeated songs. When we started going I was learning to play by ear, and the songs that everyone knew and played along with were a real help, far easier than 'tunes'.
The good thing about that session is the variety, one Boxing Day afternoon the bar was full and we 'played to the gallery' -handing round the percussion, playing In my Liverpool Home, and Whisky in the Jar, and rousing tunes like Susanna and Salmon Tails. The next Monday evening it was quiet, and the musicians were in reflective mood, trying out unfamiliar material.
Both very enjoyable in a different way.

The other problem with over familiar material is that people will probably join in the chorus the way they've always sung it, which may not be the way you intended it to go.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 08:35 AM

OK, I'm probably the only person to do a Da POnte song in a folk club.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 08:38 AM

I quite agree that some songs have been done to death but I have found that if the song was good originally it can sometimes be resurrected quite successfully. For example, Pete Coe does a wonderful Poverty Knock, sung very slowly, which is most impressive. Also I have just re-discovered 'The Shearing's Not For You' (no, I'm not comparing myself to Pete) after some 20-odd years and I was really pleased when it went down well. It is the most beautiful song when sung without the Spinners' treatment.

As for other people's songs in a folk club, I've always said it is a bit meany to do something that you know someone else has worked hard on. If anyone does it to me I will sing it again in the next week or two to make a gentle point (but of course, not if they do a better job than me!)

---

Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 08:39 AM

I don't think I made myself clear. It wasn't the fact that this Singer in Sidmouth performed 2 Little Boys (which he did with all the soul that he would apply to one of his more usual ballads)
It was just the unexpectedness of it!
(I think he was surprised that so many people knew the chorus actually!)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 09:46 AM

Oi! Guest, don't knock the Spinners. They may not be current 'Folkie Taste', but they were very much of their time and did a lot for the folk movement in the 60's and 70's. It is pretty sad that the Beeb in its wisdom have not given them a lifetimes achievement award. (seriously!)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: autoharpbob
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 10:12 AM

I am a little surprised at some peoples reaction to some comments here. It was never my intention to be a Folk Policeman and set out a list of banned songs. I just wondered if there were certain songs that were best avoided as they tended to turn off the audience - unless you can do them in a fresh way. This is giving folk club audiences what they want - or don't want - not policing in any way. One way to find out what doesn't go down well is to sing it and see. A less painful way might be to ask around.

As for "you go to a folk club to hear ..." OK - you tell me what Folk Music is and I'll tell you if I sing it. But from following other threads here, that is impossible to do. Can anyone write a folk song now? Is it not possible to sing any song in a folk style? I go to folk clubs to hear music, I am not bothered what kind as long as it is good music (which probably means music I like). I even don't mind the occasional bad music if I can see that the performer is trying, just starting out and doing what they can.

I would not sing any song written by an artist who was performing in that club that night. I would be too fearful of not doing it right, or of seeming to tell that artist "This is how it should be done!". I of course have no compunction about singing their songs when they are not there, but will always give credit to the composer. I would probably ask before singing a song that I had heard another performer sing, and would not do it the same night or within a week or two. I would not be at all embarrassed if I sang a song that another performer regularly sings if I had not heard them do it. I would be fairly certain they didn't do it like me anyway! Nobody can own a song except the original author. Copyright issues don't come into this, until you start recording and publishing.

All in all, thanks everyone for your help and advice. It confirms what I suspected in general, that some songs have been done-to-death, and therefore there is a high wall to get over if you take them on. You have to be different, you have to add some value to the songs. OK, understood. But I guess you should be aiming to do that with every song you sing anyway, so this doesn't really pose a problem, does it?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: melodeonboy
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 10:15 AM

I feel a mighty wind a'blowin'!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 10:27 AM

Two Little Boys is a somewhat belated American Civil War Song written at the beginning of the 20th century which became, subsequently, a music hall song and was recorded by Harry Lauder. Rolf Harris got it over the phone from an Australian singer in the 1970s and popularised it to the extent that Margaret Thatcher declared it to be her favourite song. All of which would seem to constitute jolly good reasons to abstain from singing it in an English session, I'd have thought.

Re doing other people's material: it seems to me to be simply bad manners to churn this out in front of an invited guest. For the floor singer to make the excuse that they "didn't know" that the guest might have been going to do the song really doesn't wash. Hadn't they thought of checking recorded output? In fact, in the instance I cited above, one of the culprits was a resident who ought to have known better.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 10:54 AM

Sorry YB - if a folk club is a community, so are the passengers on a bus.
"Of course they are not HIS songs."
As for singing 'other people's' songs, I agree with B.E. entirely; I think we are confusing convention with good manners. Of course you don't launch into songs that your guest (or fellow resident) is likely to sing, not without consulting them anyway. Nothing to do with ownership, just consideration for others.
I was at a club in Manchester once where the compare/resident deliberately chose five songs in versions that the guest had recorded, and sang them very badly.
The guest, when his spot came, sang them all again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:24 AM

Jim I agree (ish!)
Horses (no not that sort!)
To Precis.
1. A session (as has been described) of a boxing day pub afternoon, with a few Singers/Musicians, just having fun. Member of the Community (pub regular) asks for (insert name hear. At Henry, Liverpool, Whatever) and the musos oblige. The next 10 minutes turns into "FolkieOkie" Badly sung manglings of words/tunes. probably going off the rails half way through the second verse. I have no problem with that. They've all had a few. and you can bet that 30 minutes later someone will ask for At Henry again, having forgotten that someone else had already murdered it!
But, No-ones getting paid, so, no harm done (except to my eardrums)

2 Folk Club (Singers Night stylee) Well, depends where you are are. The Volly at Sidmouth is a pretty safe bet for great songs, normally well sung. But. I have been to singarounds at other places, when nobody could perform at all......but the perpetrator will insist on doing Tam Lyn...very slowly in a variety of keys. and if I ever hear Matty Groves butchered again....

If you get lucky there may be someone, (normally a beginner either song or tune who is just discovering the music) who will be interesting and worth listening to. Some of my favourite players have only been playing for a few months.

But, sadly some of these singarounds become the fiefdom of whoever is running it and their accolytes, who are more than happy just to churn out the same music that they've done in the Rat and Parrot on a Thursday, "because we always do it. That makes it traditional..."
Yeah Right!

3 More concert style venues.
Guest (Don't play his repertoire!)
Possible picked residents (The Bothy club springs to mind. Several varied acts of high standard as the warm up acts for the main guest, very enjoyable)

4 Music sessions.

I think I'll leave that for another time. don't get me started on the lack of tolerance in music sessions. You think you singers have problems!!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:25 AM

Autoharpbob: It was never my intention to be a Folk Policeman
I feel a parody of "I'm an Urban Spaceman" coming on!

I'm a folk policeman and tho'
I don't know why,
I can't stand "Athenry"

I'll have to re-listen to the original before I can expand upon this!

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:40 AM

don't get me started on the lack of tolerance in music sessions

Good Lord, I must be one of the lucky ones. We had a cracking session in the Bull at Ditchling last night - one or two guitars, mandolins, fiddles, harp, serpent, whistles, Northumbrian small pipes, mandocello, concertina, melodeon, saxes (some of these doubled by the musicians) - and vocals. Songs both traditional and not-so, plenty of tunes both traditional and bluesy. Plenty of Harveys ale, good musicianship and very pleasant and jolly company. Everyone got a chance to lead off on whatever they wanted, at least twice, and everyone contributed to the piece as appropriate. An appreciative set of people - the non sessioners - in the bar, who listened most of the time and applauded most things. A young lass sang a couple of solo pieces - the chatter in the bar grew to silence and you could have heard a pin drop. Rapturous applause and cheers at the end. As I say, I must be one of the lucky ones - it was a great evening.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:47 AM

Actually just tuned into this thread again and it's stayed very civilised contrary to what I (and a couple of others) thought might happen.

Recent posts remind me of when we went to a Jez Lowe songwriting workshop in Gainsborough a few years back He told a story of a club he was guesting at where he was greeted by the organisers/residents with a list of his own songs that they didn't want him to do that night because their band usually did them.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:13 PM

I `ad that P.C. Plod in my cab the other night dressed in plain clothes although you could still tell `es a copper by `is size 14 shoes.
I said, " Evening all. You out and about looking for druggers then?"
`e said, " Nah Jim. I`ve been seconded to the Folk Song Division. We been `earing reports of banned songs being done in them Folk Clubs. Could you take me to that Traditions Club up the Charing Cross Road please?"
I said, " Gor blimey. They aint been doing them "Wild Rover" and "Fields of Athenry " again, `ave they?"
`e said, "Nah Jim. They `ve been taking the piss. That Bob Davenport `as been doing "The Laughing Policeman!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:21 PM

Dave MacKenzie mentions singing Mozart/Da Ponte in a folk club. This is rare, but plenty of English session players play Michael Turner's Waltz, which is from Mozart's German Dances (KV536 Minuet and Trio). Weber's Huntsman's Chorus, Pleyell's Allemand, a movement from a Hook piece which became Indian Queen, and a great many others became country dance tunes at least a hundred and fifty years ago.

Music and song from the stage and the concert hall have been filtering into the tradition for centuries. It would be a new development if they stopped, and only regrettable if they turned into a tidal wave swamping everything else.

I'm glad to say that my experiences are similar to Will Fly's.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 01:00 PM

I am completely befuddled at the idea of a song "belonging" to any individual who did not write it. Of course, I have no knowledge of any "UK folk club," and have been following this discussion strictly for my own amusement and enlightenment. But I still have a few things to say, and hope I can say 'em without offending anyone.

For your consideration:

If one of the local regular amateur cover-artists is generally known among the entire community as the "owner" of some traditional song, or Gershwin song, or Dylan song, or whatever ~ does that not indicate that the song in question has been "done to death" by that individual? (While you're mulling that over, I might add that a different person's interpretation might well be worth a listen, should you allow him/her to proceed.)

Accents: I have waxed at length on this forum (albeit not recently) on the subject of accents and perhaps should hold my (virtual) tongue and not repeat myself, but I just get so angry at the assertion that one should never sing in an accent not one's own. Balderdash!

While there is plenty of material that can and should be sung simply and unaffectely in one's own native tongue, some songs (indeed, some whole genres of songs) simply require certain sets of vocal inflections. The Blues is an obvious such instance. Consider the generally appropriate manner in which so many British blues-revivalists have approached their vocals. While no "accent" used in any of their work can be attributed as authentic mimicry of any one particular subculture in the African-American South, these vocalists employ certain characteristics common to all such subcultures, and create a sound that is entirely appropriate to the material. And then, when they are interviewed after having sung, their own "natural" voices sound completely different from what came out of their throats during performance.

Sometimes the very words and phrases just about force a singer (or actor) to adopt at least some elements of a particular accent. To use an example outside the world of music, I would defy anyone to read aloud any one page from from the collected works of John Millington Synge and NOT fall, quite natually, into some sort of Irish accent. It won't be identifiable as the authentic accent of any one particular county or townland (well, with Synge, it will probably have to sound generally West-of-Ireland), and it shouldn't be an obviously overdone self-conscious brand of "stage Oirish," but it simply cannot be recited aloud in the voice of a New Yorker, Louisianian, or for that matter, a Londoner.

The key, in singing as well as in playacting or recitation, is to keep things relatively subtle, and to find a way to reconcile one's own "natural" voice with the somewhat different "voice" demanded by the material.

More than accents, I think that style of performance is critical to the delivery of folksong and similar material. As someone noted above, singing "like Howard Keel" (i.e., in a Broadway-stage style) will make any song sound "non-folk," as would an operatic delivery. A singer can vocalize "naturally," in the sense of being less affected and more direct than singers of those stage-oriented traditions, with or without adopting elements of some accent not his own by birth.

OK, what else... Oh: I heartily endorse correcting misinformation when it is promulgated from the stage. The corrector should, of course, employ a civil tone, at the very least, and try to convey a feeling of helpfulness and humor rather than one-upsmanship. But even when handled clumsily, contributing a statement of fact is to be commended when erroneous opinions have been put forth from a position of (relative) authority, e.g., the stage (any stage).

One last thing: My understanding of the shared credit "Lyrics by DeBose Hayward and Ira Gershwin" is that Hayward's novel provided all of the meaning and many of the words of those passages coverted into song by the Gershwin brothers, but that Ira is almost exclusively responsible for converting the novelist's prose into the metre and rhyme of the lyrics we know today.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 01:40 PM

Whilst it is obvious that no one apart from the original composer can "own" a song, when someone has taken the trouble to discover, and arrange and learn a piece it is annoying when someone else immediately seizes upon it. Bear in mind that in most folk clubs the same circle of singers and audience are there every week. It is quite simply bad manners to perform material which you know to be in the repertoire of another of the performers.

Even if the song may have been "done to death" it is disrespectful, but sometimes a song or tune is pinched before there's even been a chance of that.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 02:02 PM

Thanks, Howard. I didn't mean to be critical, just sayin' that the whole concept is outside my experience.

I'm not a songwriter, and these days I probably add no more than about ten songs a year to my repertoire. I only perform "out" once a month, and while I try to have something new each time out (well, old, actually, but new to me), I don't always do so, and almost never have more than one new arrangement worked up in a given month.

In most cases, I'm inspired to arrange and sing an old favorite song not by the original recording ("source"), but by hearing somebody else's take on it. I'm not usually capable of copying them exactly, even when I want to, and sometimes I'll manage a bit of originality when there's a line or two that I feel that I can do better than the pervious singer. But, yeah, I routeinely "take" songs from others...

I don't feel particularly ashamed about this, not at all.

But in my case, those "somebody elses" are not constant weekly companions; in some cases, they're people I'm never meet, who I found on the internet...

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:15 PM

Hi poppagator

<" I heartily endorse correcting misinformation when it is promulgated from the stage. The corrector should, of course, employ a civil tone, at the very least, and try to convey a feeling of helpfulness and humor rather than one-upsmanship. But even when handled clumsily, contributing a statement of fact is to be commended when erroneous opinions have been put forth from a position of (relative) authority, e.g., the stage (any stage).">

Earlier on this thread I disagreed with Tunesmith on this point and I will do so again with you.

In doing so can I point out that I was commenting about a situation where an inexperienced floor singer made the "mistake" while introducing the number he/she was going to sing.

I believe in this situation the correct way to do this is to pull the person on to one side AFTER he/she finishes singing and mentions the slip. In that situation either the singer or the resident....or the person who spotted the point could explain it to the audience , if it was felt to be important to do so.

As a fairly experienced performer it wouldn't bother me if you were to interrupt me..in fact I would welcome it. I am more than capable of handling that and you might not interrupt again in a hurry !!!!

Like most things it is not a case of black or white - some consideration needs to be made about the actual circumstances before interupting a performer.

In my long experience of audiences the vast majority wouldn't have even heard the announcement and of those that did very few would even care whether the music was written by Gershwin et al or Rimski-Korsakov.

cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:26 PM

Jim Carroll

"Two Little Boys", "Mozart", "Summertime", "Mad World", "Chasing Cars".... and being fined £5 for singing 'Wid Rover' - I do hope Bryan Creer is reading this!!!

Sorry? What's your point?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:29 PM

if I ever hear Matty Groves butchered again....

Er... actually, Ralphie, he was.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:34 PM

I've done one of Papageno's songs from the Magic Flute on the box if we're still bragging ;-)
As for accents -I suppose I'd better take a vow of silence if an RP accent is unacceptable. I blame the parents, of course, but heaven forfend that I should disturb glueman's sense of authenticity. What a bell-end (to be said in any accent he likes - but probably in RP because it will offend him all the more).

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:50 PM

Valmai beat me to it on the Mozart. I'm particularly intrigued by Pleyel's Allemand which appears as Pleals Allemande in Wiliam Aylemore's (of West Wittering) manuscript of 1796. Ignaz Joseph Pleyel, born in Austria but relocated to Strasbourg, ran a series of highly successful concerts in London in the early 1790s. He bought a Chateau on the proceeds. Aylemore was picking up on the "pop" music of the day. Could it be that he played as a session musician in one of Pleyel's concerts?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:58 PM

Snail...
Ever heard of Irony??? (It's like Goldy, but harder!!!)
Nice one.
Came home tonight, and found this bloke pinned against a wall...Wouldn't have minded, but I only painted it on Sunday...Bugger!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 04:17 PM

Well!!! Bury me at the top.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Ralph
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 04:30 PM

Well. In Fact, I buried him face down.....He's got a long way to go (Jake Thackray)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Rod...
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM

This Mudcat thread really is the gift that keeps on giving... please don't stop... probably back later in the week and don't want to be disappointed...

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 05:52 PM

For the elimination of doubt, and sheer pedantry:

"DuBose Heyward has gone largely unrecognized as the author of the finest set of lyrics in the history of the American musical theater - namely, those of Porgy and Bess. There are two reasons for this, and they are connected. First, he was primarily a poet and novelist, and his only song lyrics were those that he wrote for Porgy. Second, some of them were written in collaboration with Ira Gershwin, a full-time lyricist, whose reputation in the musical theater was firmly established before the opera was written. But most of the lyrics in Porgy - and all of the distinguished ones - are by Heyward. I admire his theater songs for their deeply felt poetic style and their insight into character. It's a pity he didn't write any others. His work is sung, but he is unsung."

(Stephen Sondheim, "Invisible Giants: Fifty Americans Who Shaped the Nation But Missed the History Books")

The opera as a whole work was credited to George Gershwin, Ira Gershwin, DuBose Hayward and Dorothy Heyward, as they all had a hand in it - hence the confusion.

Speaking of possibly inappropriate material for folk clubs, many years ago I used to treat our poor unsuspecting audiences to my rendition of "Telstar" on a soprano crumhorn - no-one ever complained :-)