should folk music be called fake music

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 01:11 PM

if you exclude accompaniment it is a stylistic restriction.
I have not slandered anybody.
"No it isn't - virtually all the finest singers in Ireland are unaccompanied and are stylishly superior to those who choose to accompany themselves". quote from Jim Carroll
The above is your opinion, it is not a fact, I think that MANY of the unaccompanied singers in the Irish singers clubs are very good and some are excellent, I also think that many accompanied singers such as Christy Moore and Andy Irvine are also very good
to say one is better than the other is like so much that you say completely and utterly stupid and ridiculous, IT IS RATHER LIKE COMPARING A LEMON TO A PEACH.
THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT FRUITS BOTH OF WHICH ARE TASTY,BUT VERY DIFFERENT.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 01:50 PM

You are flogging a dead horse Dick. I like beer and my neighbour likes model railways. I'd have to ask Prof Carroll which is better than the other and why.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 03:51 PM

It was called folk music because the word faux would be a too hard to spell, especially by banjo faux?

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 04:39 PM

"if you exclude accompaniment it is a stylistic restriction."
If you impose accompaniment where it is not required it is an imposition
Accompaniment may be in various styles - it is not a style in itself
You do not call excluding a tuba from Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata stylistic imposition
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 04:49 PM

The above is your opinion, it is not a fact, "
No - it is a fact
Irish singing is basically unaccompanied - most of the modern singers of Irish traditional song do not use accompaniment.
The recognised stylists in the Irish singing tradition are the sean nós singers, Joe Heaney, Sean ac Donchada, Roisín al Safti,,,, are all unaccompabnied singers
Name a stylist that sings with accompaniment
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 05:20 PM

DICK.. just what is your problem

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 05:56 PM

The trouble with your argument jim is you are asserting that a style [irish singing] cannot be changed, When a tradition cannot evolve or change it stultifies.
next, Irish singers clubs do not just book irish singers they also book singers who sing from other traditions so the rule is then imposed on others than just singers of irish singing.
if i took your argument a bit further, it could be argued that the vast majority of irish unaccompanied singing was solo, therefore The Voice Squad, should not be booked because they are singing in harmony, this in my opinion would be totally ridiculous, but it is an extension of your argument.
I do not expect you to understand a perfectly logical point, because you are consistently illogical.
Ihave stated that there are many very good irish unaccopmpanied singers and also good accompanied singers such as Paul Brady were to be booked at an irish singers club would he be expected to sing unaccompanied and is it not possible that some of his fans might be disappointed not to hear his excellent guitar work.
Guest ,my problem is dealing with anonymous guest who are too cowardly to say who they are.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 06:03 PM

Dick's problem is that he wishes to impose his own tastes on the culture of another country
Paul Brady is as far from being a Sean Nos singer as you could possibly get
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 07:07 PM

More time, now Hugh Bonneville has said what he had to say on 'Dream' - wouldn't have missed it for the world, and certainly not this nonsense..
"Guest ,my problem is dealing with anonymous guest who are too cowardly to say who they are."
Some time you accused my of being rude to somebody - you took about twenty abusive and very personal postings to make that accusation and even threw a threat of violence in for good measure.
You have just called one of the stalwarts of the English folk scene a liar and demanded an apology - and denied that you have slandered anybody.
Now you are accusing a guest of being a coward for not posting under his real name.
Did your parents have any problems getting the vicar to accept 'Good Soldier Schweik' when you were being christened?
Maybe the Registry of Births, Marriages and Deaths hesitated when you changed your name from Captain Birdseye to your present one?
Irony isn't one of your strong points, is it?
But never mind eh, you have god on your side - and a fellow stalker - creepy, or what?
"You are flogging a dead horse Dick."
What a pair - two creepy and bullying morons in the same card game - snap!
You have my opinion on the reason why most clubs in Ireland do not encourage or book accompanied singers - as much as that may be inconvenient to a rising superstar such as yourself, that is the way it is - their decision, as far as I'm concerned, a wise one.
It's not for outsiders like us to impose policies on a scene that is not ours to challenge, especially when it is based on a folk scene that had the advantage of so many excellent field singers up to fairly recently
Accompaniment for Joe Heaney, or Mary Anne Carolan or Elizebath Cronin or Tom Lenihan or Maggie Murphy or Sara Makem or Eddie Butcher or Darrach O' Cathain or Nioclás Tobín or the Keane sisters or Tom Costello or Geordie Hanna or John Reilly...... songs - don't think so really!      
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 07:46 PM

The only thing to check on - if you belive you are in an authentic Irish - theme pub, is, is the (male) shit-house-seat missing ?. They always seem to be in all the countries I have visited

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 08:11 PM

Is this thread about anything, or is it just a complete waste of bandwidth?

Just curious....

Don Firth

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 03:57 AM

I have been regularly booked at The Cork singers club   and enjoy doing the occassional completely unaccompanied singing gig.It is not a problem for me at all. I was asked to give examples of stylistic exclusion. I did so, I mentioned CCE, and unaccompanied singers clubs.
My point is that it is an example of stylistic exclusion.
I am not trying to impose anything on anyones culture, that is ridiculous, I am hardly in a position to do so., neither is it my desire to do so,
it does not affect me or my livelihood as I am able to do unaccompanied singing, furthermore I enjoy doing an evening of unaccompanied singing.I would not have returned to the Cork singers club five times if did not enjoy singing there and listening to the other singers, I also turned up to see Ken Wilson do a gig there which was a great gig. and the general standard of singing was high in the club, it was a smashing evening.
   It does affect other performers who do rely upon accompaniment., it means they either have to perform unaccompanied or are excluded from doing a gig,these are the unaccompanied singers clubs rules they are not my opinion but a fact.
Every club organiser has that right to run a club the way they want, I do not have any problem with that and I am personally quite happy to do an evening of unaccompanied singing but it does not alter the fact that by its very nature it excludes accompaniment,and therefore is stylistically exclusive, that is a fact.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 04:23 AM

Around here they tend to discourage bodhrans because of the effect they have on the music that is played here - that is not the type of music those involved in sessions go in for.
That is not stylish restriction, in fact, the opposite.
If the bodhran were to become part of the music scene the nature of the music would change - the bodhran would have imposed its own sound onto a session largely made up of flutes, fiddles and concertinas.
The same goes for accompanied singing - only more so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 04:29 AM

whether it is a good thing or bad thing it is still stylistic restriction, it has nothing to do with the instrument but the performance.
most musicians will not exclude a bodhran player who knows the music listens and accompaniesand is sympathetic to ther melody players
excluding an instrument before it is played is pejudice [prejudging]

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 04:42 AM

"whether it is a good thing or bad thing it is still stylistic restriction, it has nothing to do with the instrument but the performance."
NO IT IS NOT - it is an artistic decision to present one type of music rather than another.
It is no more a stylistic restriction that is the Royal Opera House not putting on Lady Gaga concerts - that is not the music they wish to promote.
It is certainly not a prejudice, most people love instrumental singing of one form or another - in its place.
The clubs here has decided that Irish traditional singing does not need accompaniment and has refused to have it imposed on their sessions - I go along with that and the sooner you stop singing "I'll sing it mY Way' the sooner you will understand that fact
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 05:16 AM

This is an odd thread, to say the least! GSS suddenly and abruptly revives a decades old controversy - for no particularly good reason, as far as I can see. Then he engages in long drawn-out arguments with a couple of other people - arguments which seem to have little connection with the thread's title. Most peculiar!

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: johncharles
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 05:33 AM

Alas poor Katy. Gone.
john

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 07:20 AM

Yes, what happened to Katy's post?

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: johncharles
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 09:40 AM

I suspect that in 15 lines Katy managed 13 breaches of netiquette. It must be some sort of record. Go Girl!
john

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 11:35 AM

"Irish singing is basically unaccompanied."

Best tell Planxty to shut the fuck up then 😹

Unaccompanied is basic, I'll grant you that.... Even in Ireland. Did you hear Boyzone on Gay Byrne when their foldback failed and they couldn't hear their backing track? 🙀

Is Jim making it up as he goes on? Still, if he were right, it'd be a way of dealing with the plastic Paddies in Templebar screaming out Galway Girl two yards from you when you want to have a pint in peace... Tenor banjos and bodhrans can sound lovely at the right distance...

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 12:14 PM

"Best tell Planxty to shut the fuck up then"
Irish traditional singing is basically unaccompanied, as is its English counterpart; there is no proof that it has ever been otherwise.
The English revival has introduced instrumental accompaniment with a degree of success (sometimes)
Irish bands have taken from the tradition and made it something else by more or less abandoning traditional styles, but by and large, the singing here remains unaccompanied.
The only ones here to have suggested that anybody should "shut up" are you morons who have constantly sneered at those who use traditional styles and repertoire.
Why do you go out of your way to be as unpleasant as you obviously are and as persistently dishonest in deliberately distorting what others have to say – you can't be that insecure, surely?
"the plastic Paddies in Templebar"
Your statements get more and more racist very time you post – do I detect a Nuemberg rally in the offing?
Stop behaving like a thug and trying to bully people into silence, you moron – you're as unstable as the Skibbereen Stalker, it really doesn't impress and makes you look somewhat childish
Keep your toys in the pram or I shall take them off you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 12:48 PM

Hoy at Anchor Nov 11 Dick Miles (£5)The Royal British Legion
7/9 Northview Drive, Westcliff-on-Sea, SS0 9NG
Faversham Folk club. NOV 12, Chimney Boy, Preston Street.
NOV13 Maidenhead Folk Club
Venue; The 'New Inn', Farm Road, Maidenhead.
Nov 14 Seaford folk club Address:
Royal British Legion, Claremont road seaford
NOV 17. SunInn Stockton Folk Club Stockton.
NOV 20 Stanford Folk at the Drum
NOV21 Bury St Edmunds, Milkmaid Folk Club

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 12:49 PM

Err.. No.

Lack of instruments is not rejection of them. as they became more available, they were taken up with enthusiasm.

You should be more specific which part of history your reenactment hobby covers.

I'm racist?

😮

Err.. You're racist.

💤

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 01:23 PM

!Irish traditional singing is basically unaccompanied, as is its English counterpart; there is no proof that it has ever been otherwise."
oh, you have forgotten Margaret Barry, Pecker Dunne, Luke Kelly,Nic Jones Martin Carthy, Bob Roberts.
MargaretBarry, Pecker Dunne were Irish traditional singers who used accompaniment, Bob Roberts was an English trad singer who used accompaniment, Davy Stewart was a Scots trad singer who used accompaniment.
anyway the argument that you are trying to use "that trad singers were always unaccompanied so it must not change" is a classic example of not allowing a tradition to evolve,
Unless traditions evolve and change and grow they stultify and eventually wither, The nature of a healthy tradition is one that allows evolvement and change.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 01:28 PM

" they were taken up with enthusiasm"
Mainly by the bands - not a lot of enthusiasm elsewhere - that's what dick is wingeing about
"You should be more specific which part of history your reenactment hobby covers"
You should swot up on what you are talking about before you try to bully the rest of us into silence
"I'm racist"
I've just said that, so has one of my Diddycoy friends
"You're racist."
No I'm not but the fact that you have to lie about it indicated that you're running short on invective
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 02:31 PM

Stop feeding the trolls.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 02:38 PM

I'm not feeding it. I'm ensuring the troll's revision of history isn't taken at face value by others without question.

I didn't think you called them diddycoys Jim? You must know some of the Doncaster lot.. Apparently where you live, it's considered a racist remark, (mind you, not by any reliable witness, and I've lived amongst our Paddy brethren myself. I still have a place I rent out in Blackrock for that matter. All that diddly doo music, it was a nice change to get back to Blighty and hear unaccompanied for a change.

(Laughter emoticons, can't be arsed to HTML them.)