Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 12:53 PM

Well, maybe it's been accepted as Scottish now! We're not an ethnonationalist state, after all - all who make their home here are Scots.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 02:43 PM

GUEST, RA; That's a splendid sentiment! Alas, not all the messages posted on this thread are as charitable;

WorldCat lists far more different formats and arrangements for that piece of shit than I have the patience to sift through.

It was written to be played en masse by a fiddle school (as their closing number).

The tune was not intended to have interpretive subtleties.

I have an ambition to play it as a jig to get it over with faster but haven't figured out how yet.

"Ashokan Farewell" was published by Mel Bay on 1 January 1983. Must have made Ungar a fair bit in that form, before the Civil War royalties started rolling in.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 05:10 PM

The copyright date of the piece (1983) is not necessarily the date of the sheet music publication - especially when that publication references Ken Burns's "The Civil War.'

There were reprints that referenced the TV series. There were a lot before that, and they were the ones I was talking about. You can just go on Abe or Ebay and buy one if you want. Hint, this was published a bit before Keira Knightley could feature on the cover:

Pride and Prejudice

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: meself
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 05:18 PM

"The tune was not intended to have interpretive subtleties." Should anyone care about that? On the odd occasion I find myself having a go at it - always with some external prompt; it's not a favourite of mine - I give it what I think could charitably be characterized as "interpretive subtleties"- or less charitably as "interpretive stumblings", I suppose .....

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 04:23 AM

To my ear, it sounds like a play on the Rose of Tralee.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 05:57 AM

Henryp, Nigel’s various great collections have only appeared in much more recent times.
I was referring to when he first published it in his Session Tune books in 1999, which many ALP Scots Music Group students would have bought, myself included. It appears in Session Tunes Book 2. In the introduction to the book, Nigel says:
“The second collection of session tunes is slightly different from the first booklet. As well as the standard tunes popular in sessions, we are fortunate to be able to include some more recent compositions. We’ve had contributions from world-famous musicians such as Jay Ungar, the illustrious American fiddler,……”
And at the back of the book, he has further notes, including details of how the tune came about, as detailed in other posts above, the famous quote from Ungar himself - “he sometimes introduces it as -a Scottish lament written by a Jewish guy from the Bronx -…. (See also RA’s comment!)
Nigel further goes on to record his gratitude for Jay’s permission to publish it, and to say that “this beautiful air has captured the hearts and imagination of musicians from all around the world”.
Why am I telling you all this? Just felt the need to clarify that Nigel knows what he’s talking about, and gave all the correct details in his FIRST publication of the tune. What he has put on his website and into his various collections since is fine by me and many others who use this valuable resource.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 06:42 AM

Thanks for the clarification. I've no quarrel with Nigel Gatherer. He has made a great contribution to keeping folk music alive - and what an appropriate name for a collector! But it is interesting that he has found a place for Ashokan Farewell in his Scottish Collection.

We still have not established when the sheet music for Ashokan Farewell was published. Jack Campin has been unable to find anything to support his claim that ""Ashokan Farewell" was published by Mel Bay on 1 January 1983. Must have made Ungar a fair bit in that form, before the Civil War royalties started rolling in."

I don't know why Jack thinks that the size of the royalties is relevant. And I don't know why he thinks that his more disagreeable posts contribute to the discussion, e.g. "WorldCat lists far more different formats and arrangements for that piece of shit than I have the patience to sift through."

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 06:57 AM

So no interpretive subtleties in this then here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kZASM8OX7s
It's all in the dots?

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 09:50 AM

it would have been safer for Nigel Gatherer to call his collection 'Tunes played in Scotland' -the way it's done in Ireland 'Songs Sung in Ireland'.

Such vagueness means you can include stuff from everywhere & they can't touch you for it, mate

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 11:28 AM

From Tattie Bogle; I was referring to when [Nigel Gatherer] first published it in his Session Tune books in 1999. Nigel says, “We’ve had contributions from world-famous musicians such as Jay Ungar, the illustrious American fiddler,……” Nigel further goes on to record his gratitude for Jay’s permission to publish it, and to say that “this beautiful air has captured the hearts and imagination of musicians from all around the world”.

Thanks for that. The Civil War was first broadcast to air on PBS in 1990. Nigel Gatherer dealt direct with Jay Ungar in 1999. This appears to conflict with Jack Campin's assertions about Mel Bay publishing Ashokan Farewell;

1. "Ashokan Farewell" was published by Mel Bay on 1 January 1983. Must have made Ungar a fair bit in that form, before the Civil War royalties started rolling in.
2. I don't have that print collection but I doubt it varies one little bit from what all the thousands of Ashokan fiddle camp participants played as their final number over the next 40 years.
3. I would expect that ALP/SMG paid the going rate to Mel Bay but I wasn't there to check.
4. There were reprints that referenced the TV series. There were a lot before that, and they were the ones I was talking about.
5. WorldCat lists far more different formats and arrangements for that piece of shit than I have the patience to sift through.

So Jack Campin has not found any entry on WorldCat to support his claim.
And Nigel Gatherer considers Ashokan Farewell a beautiful air, while Jack Campin does not.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 11:46 AM

Beautiful Irish or Scottish airs sound lovely when played plainly, often with little or no accompaniment, when played in sessions or other informal settings. In the first playthrough in that video the "beautiful" melody was pulled to pieces (I was scratching my head in places), rescued in later playthroughs by greater or lesser ornate accompaniment. It's an arrangement, a performance, lovely I'm sure on a record. I'm at a loss to see how it can be regarded as even vaguely Scottish-sounding. A very nice construction of one of my least favourite tunes, I thought. All just opinion from me.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 12:15 PM

henryp: https://www.melbay.com/Products/95056/ashokan-farewell.aspx

Does that look electronic? Can you read the date?

Now fuck off.

GUEST:
So no interpretive subtleties in this then here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kZASM8OX7s

No idea, I couldn't watch it here even if I wanted to waste my time on sentimental fakery. From Steve Shaw's description after taking one for the team and actually watching it, I presume it isn't a straight video from a session like the Edinburgh or Ashokan ones, which were what I was talking about.

Anybody can add layers of interpretation to anything. And any sufficiently large group of fiddlers can turn any tune into a dogged expressionless routine. Slow airs performed en masse in sessions nearly always lose the whole point

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 12:22 PM

Guest, henryp, the "piece of shit" comment was made anonymously by GUEST Date: 11 Aug 24 - 07:40 PM.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 12:47 PM

Hee, hee.
This is a fun thread. ;-))

I don't think Jack minds this tune too much except the change to C natural in the second part.
;-))

I don't know about paying the going rate but I'm very sure that Nigel would have obtained permission from the composer and ensured it would be OK to include the tune in his collection.

As I recall, it was very strict in the early days of The ALP and one of the reasons for focusing on "teaching by ear" was as much to do with copyright issues as being the so called "traditional way" to do things.
I even remember some tutors learning tunes themselves off by heart "from the dots" before teaching it to the students by ear. "Hand written" music was also another good trick.
;-)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 01:17 PM

Re the comments about "learning it from paper" at The SMG...

I first learned it there by ear from Angus Grant Junior in the early nineties. He told us the tune's history too and also about the Civil War film connection.

We would have been among the very first ALP students to play this tune and we all learned it by ear.
Angus always taught this way and didn't even hand out sheet music at his classes. Sometimes, one of his class members might transcribe it but that was as close as we got.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 01:19 PM

On the off chance that anyone still cares, the U.S. Copyright Office asserts that the earliest Mel Bay publication of "Ashokan Farewell" was registered on July 6, 2010:


https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=3&ti=1,3&Search%5FArg=ashokan%20farewell&Search%5FCode=TALL&CNT=25&PID=WObHGx

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 02:19 PM

Jack Campin says;
henryp: https://www.melbay.com/Products/95056/ashokan-farewell.aspx
Does that look electronic? Can you read the date?
Now fuck off.

Jack, the date may say 1/1/83. But this particular edition was published after the broadcast of The Civil War series in 1990!

"In addition to Jay Ungar's authorized solo edition as performed in the documentary series, this folio contains the touching Civil War era "Sullivan Ballou Letter" and Lincoln's famed Gettysburg Address."

Thanks to Lighter who has found that the U.S. Copyright Office asserts that the earliest Mel Bay publication of "Ashokan Farewell" was registered on July 6, 2010.

PS This wouldn't be the first Mudcat thread to be taken down after Jack Campin's outbursts.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 03:26 PM

Helen; From: Helen Date: 13 Aug 24 - 12:22 PM
Guest, henryp, the "piece of shit" comment was made anonymously by GUEST Date: 11 Aug 24 - 07:40 PM.

"WorldCat lists far more different formats and arrangements for that piece of shit than I have the patience to sift through. The 1983 date is the copyright date for all of them, be it print, electronic, braille or translated into Amharic. Look for sites that sell sheet music and you will immediately come across printed ones with the 1983 publication date."

Thank you, Helen. Are you familiar with Amharic? I wonder how many people are.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Molly Mason
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 04:05 PM

Ashokan Farewell- (written in’82, copyright in ‘83 when we put it on our
second Fiddle Fever album.) Ken Burns was given a coupe of that
Record& became interested in the tune for his future big project.
When that project ( the Civil War series came out Sept.of 1990,
That’s when Mel Bay and other companies got interested in
Putting out versions of it.
Is there confusion with Copyright date and publishing date?
For sure, not many folks were interested in the tune for the first
8 or 9 years, unless they had been to music camp at Ashokan
Or were Fiddle Fever fans! We did have lots of gigs back the.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 04:20 PM

Thank you, Molly and Jay, for Ashokan Farewell!

We were lucky enough to see Walt Michael & Co at Girvan Folk Festival in the late 1980s - Walt Michael, Frank Orsini, Evan Stover and Tommy Whetmore.

Evan Stover took Ashokan Farewell with him from Fiddle Fever and performed it with the group. We have enjoyed it ever since.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 04:20 PM

Thank you, Molly Mason, for providing the copyright information and the timing of various events in the history of the tune.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Helen
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 08:41 PM

Yes, thank you Molly and Jay. I have played music with a group of friends just for fun for 40 years and Ashokan Farewell is one of our favourite tunes.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 03:13 AM

We have seen the best and worst of Mudcat in this thread.

Thanks to Molly Mason for providing the background to the tune that we have been seeking.

Thanks to Tattie Bogle and Johnny J for their memories of the early work of the Scottish Music Group.

Thanks to Reinhard, Lighter and others for digging into the records with such determination.

Thanks to everyone who has made a positive contribution to the discussion.

Jack Campin, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie Mor
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 04:57 AM

To lighten the discussion a bit, "Ashokan Farewell" used to be a favourite tune of my mother. She lived in Perthshire, and sent a request for it to be played on a local radio station in Dundee, however, she asked the presenter if he would play "The Shocking Farewell". :)
He had a good laugh at this, and I think he got in touch with her to ask if he could use it on the programme. That was OK, and he sent her the CD which had the tune recorded on it. { don't remember who it was, I'm afraid ]. Good result all round.
Carry on.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 05:12 AM

Molly Mason's intervention reminds me of a scene from 'Annie Hall' where a knowall in the queue for a Marshall McLuhan event was loudly giving his doubtful opinions about the man. Woody Allen was also in the queue, and frustrated by this, so left the queue, asked Mr McLuhan IN PERSON about the man's opinions.

McLuhan gave a very negative view of this idiot & Woody Allen then turned to the cinema audience and said      'wouldn't YOU like to do that?'

thank you Molly Mason, now can we just get on with just playing this lovely tune?

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Aug 24 - 10:11 AM

Echoing the thanks to Molly for putting the record straight, and yes, I shall keep playing it (slowly of course).
Btw, I didn't learn it originally from sheet music, but from my own transcription having bought the recording of Major John Perkins playing it, after hearing it on Classic FM.